Magic Words

Neeli · Oct 14, 2006

Since Diana brought up the discussion about magic, I thought I'd start a related thread about my pet peeve: magic words.

I come from a strong science background, and when I read books that use magic, it always irks me when the character has to speak certain "magic" words or a certain spell to make something happen (EXPECTO PATRONIS!! anyone?).

I mean, really. If magic existed, why would it "hear" our spoken words? True, if you speak the word "boil" to a cup of water long enough it will theoretically boil from the energy of sound waves bombarding it.

But language is a human contrivance, a code to simplify communication between one another. Words are frequently arbitary groups of sounds assigned a meaning agreed upon by a set of people. It seems too self-centered of us as humans in this vast universe to think that anything but another creature trained to respond to our invention would.

Let me clarify, I don't mind other types of magic: someone has a power that is activated by touch or pointing something at something. Somehow that makes sense in my logic, but words...?

A friend pointed out that religions rely heavily on significant words--prayer for example. But I'd like to leave theology out of this (Does God need to hear words? could be a treatise of significant length).

Ok, with that, I'll probably be booted out of the Fantasy Discussion board, or cause a rift between the SF and F elements. I'm just curious to know if other people have pondered this too.

casualPhilosoph · Oct 14, 2006

Like I said today in another Forum: Nanomachines in the atmosphere and soil that await their orders, whereas a magic wand function as a translation device from voice to electromagnetic signals. Additionally magic stones can be miniatured reactor devices providing those Nano machines with energy or nanos in the upper atmosphere use photenergy from cosmic radiation or
what I call the yggdrasil scenario: Some cosmic reactor sends an energy beam down to the planet where an receiver(the Yggdrasil tree) absorns it and from there the nano machines ditribute it trough ernergy lines.

Another possibility is what I call the spirit scenario, when magic is performed based on a physical plane that is inhibited by a lifeform we can call spirit(we even might say that human have certain aspects of spirit) we can assume that spirits itself are more adapt at using and manipulating that plane so that an act of magic can be seen as a communication with the spirits and if dead souls become spirits and have a way to feel/hear vibrations they might recognise words and such react to it.

Neeli · Oct 14, 2006

Whew. That's pretty wild. Actually it sounds kinda like the "Force."

LeeFlower · Oct 14, 2006

The way I see it is that it's a way of focusing. Magic is often portrayed as a kind of energy the magician needs to control through concentration. Words are a way to aid concentration. Telling a student to put power/energy behind words is easier than telling them to direct that power/energy all on its own.

I had a magic system in one story world where students were encouraged to use whatever words or tools (like wands) they needed to focus their magic. With time and practice, most students discovered that they didn't actually need them.

K_Woods · Oct 14, 2006

Actually, I found some nice food for thought here.

One thing I can think of in defense of magic words in a story is the obvious leap from thought or desire into a form that exists outside the caster's mind/spirit. At risk of inciting some forum Furiae at mentioning T.S. Eliot and "The Hollow Men" again...part V puts the idea into far better words than I could ever hope to pen.

Of course, there's also the question that, if language is the bridge between concept and execution in a given setting, does it have to be spoken language? What about writing? Sign language? Putting twigs together to make letters and then words? I'm getting giddy just thinking of the possibilities.

On the other hand, think of the chaos that could erupt if there wasn't some sort of switch that had to be thrown, figuratively speaking -- what if all it took was a thought, and not even a very concentrated one? I suspect language is often used as that 'switch' because of its ease of comprehension. When someone shouts "FIREBALL!" you know that the circuit's complete (and that maybe you should get out of the way).

It's extremely easy for a character who need only utilize the power of their mind to cast magic (or otherwise alter reality) to come across as god-moding without some clear explanation of just what causes idea A to manifest as spell B. And why is it that when Tina, in a fit of pique, wishes her uncle Bob dead, he doesn't just topple over on the spot? These are distinctions that need to be made clear by the writer.

(I know there are gaps here, but I can't think where they are and how to fill them in at the moment...well, there's time to sort it all out, and discussion might get more of the synapses going.)

Oddsocks · Oct 14, 2006

It depends entirely on what magic is in any given world. It could be a substance in people, a substance elsewhere that people can access and use, it could be a way of controlling some other being with natural abilities (controlling spirits, demons, etc) - depending on what it is, the way it's used will vary.

If magic is contained in the individual, then the language that has meaning to them could well be necessary to the mind in forming the ideas they want to put into practice. It could be intention based, and we think in language. Or, if it's another being, perhaps communication is necessary.

It also depends on how you want to treat language. In our world, yes, language is arbitrary and human and won't affect anything non-human. But in the world of a story, you can do what you want. I'm planning a story in which there is a magical language which is alive. It undergoes change as any language does, but rather than this being through use, it is because the language itself is a living, growing organism. In this case, using magic words is an obvious posibility, because you're bringing bits of that language into definite existence when you say them.

Or, if magic is some ancient art that was created by a civilization that used an old language, then they might have designed it to be connected to and initiated by their words, in which case it's to be expected that these words would be used.

So, it all depends on the system of magic as you define it. There are some cases where words won't (or shouldn't) work, but there are also a lot of cases where they can.

casualPhilosoph · Oct 14, 2006

If anyone read terry pratchet there is a color only mages can see cause they have special eyes and I remember somewhere a magic rune was only the visible part of soemthing instribed deeper into dimension and space, so how about a magic voice? The spoken words would only be the part hearable to normal people while mages would hear the true "sounds" the complete melody that echoes into the deeps of dimension.
By the way I also considered the decision of words to be spoken out or as concentration help as reason but then I remebered those experiments of controling stuff trough monitoring neuron/brain activities and that there was no real difference between doing and thinking of a movement in order to control the robot hand used.
Althoug originally the power of words is a thought of symbolism to be more precise it are worlds of dream logic where the difference between the order of reality and the order of the mind blur where words have magic power.
Symbols have power thats a very human thought and its the reason why vodoo dolls where thought to function and as such words that are symbols of thoughts and facts etc are thought to have power, maybe also because the seem to break the barrier between the world inside or mind and the outside.

ChaosTitan · Oct 14, 2006

LeeFlower said:
I had a magic system in one story world where students were encouraged to use whatever words or tools (like wands) they needed to focus their magic. With time and practice, most students discovered that they didn't actually need them.

Anyone else flash to Spaceballs?

"Use the Shwartz, Lonestar!"
"I can't, I lost the ring."
"Forget the ring, the ring is bupkiss. I found it as a Crackerjack prize. The Schwartz is in you, Lonestar, it's in you!"

Scarlett_156 · Oct 14, 2006

The way I see it is that it's a way of focusing. Magic is often portrayed as a kind of energy the magician needs to control through concentration. Words are a way to aid concentration. Telling a student to put power/energy behind words is easier than telling them to direct that power/energy all on its own.

That's why "magic words". In RL when you first begin to learn magic it's suggested that the words have power inherent in them. As you go along you start to realize that the power is not in the words, OR in the instruments used, OR floating around in the atmosphere-- it's in YOU. The words help you achieve the state of mind ("focus" in the above quote) necessary to make magic work.

Diana Hignutt · Oct 15, 2006

LeeFlower said:
The way I see it is that it's a way of focusing. Magic is often portrayed as a kind of energy the magician needs to control through concentration. Words are a way to aid concentration. Telling a student to put power/energy behind words is easier than telling them to direct that power/energy all on its own.

Exactly. I have nothing to add to this.

Click to expand...

Simon Woodhouse · Oct 15, 2006

I see it as being similar to a shot-putter making the big grunting noise when he heaves the ball of metal. The noise isn't necessary, it doesn't make the shot go any further, but he obviously feels the need to grunt. I wrote a story that contained several characters performing 'magic'. In the first draft they just did it with no vocalisation at all, but the scenes lacked energy, or dramatic feeling. Once I'd re-written them using 'magic words', the same events had much more impact.

Vomaxx · Oct 15, 2006

casualPhilosoph said:
Another possibility is what I call the spirit scenario, when magic is performed based on a physical plane that is inhibited by a lifeform we can call spirit(we even might say that human have certain aspects of spirit) we can assume that spirits itself are more adapt at using and manipulating that plane so that an act of magic can be seen as a communication with the spirits and if dead souls become spirits and have a way to feel/hear vibrations they might recognise words and such react to it.

Great minds think alike! This is basically the magic system I am using: beings called Aetherials, who exist in another plane, perform magic. Mages spend most of their time trying to find out how best to communicate with them and what each Aetherial (they have distinct names and personalities) can cause to happen.

Rabe · Oct 15, 2006

Simon Woodhouse said:
I see it as being similar to a shot-putter making the big grunting noise when he heaves the ball of metal. The noise isn't necessary, it doesn't make the shot go any further, but he obviously feels the need to grunt. I wrote a story that contained several characters performing 'magic'. In the first draft they just did it with no vocalisation at all, but the scenes lacked energy, or dramatic feeling. Once I'd re-written them using 'magic words', the same events had much more impact.

Actually, the 'grunting' noise could have a benefit to the shot-putter. I've learned in my own lifting that doing a exhalation at the hard part of the life and inhalation on the return has definite benefits in either lifting more weight or reps. The same as breathing in Yoga postures.

And for some people, it's also their 'focus'. Much like it has been severally discussed in this thread that the statement of 'magic words' (like Expecto Patronus for instance) is a focus rather then the actual invocation. Recall how in later books they begin to learn 'silent' spell casting.

Of course, my own pet peeve related to this is the need to 'point' at everything. A telekinetic pointing at the object to be moved, Magneto pointing at the guns he's manipulating, the telepath 'pointing' to his head when using his power. That's much more annoying to me than the utterance of 'magic words', or the Ohm, or a mantra, or the sharp exhalations of Tai Chi.

Rabe...

Ordinary_Guy · Oct 15, 2006

Neeli said:
...I come from a strong science background, and when I read books that use magic, it always irks me when the character has to speak certain "magic" words or a certain spell to make something happen (EXPECTO PATRONIS!! anyone?).

Ironically, by the [6th?] book, they start learning a method of casting without speaking the words aloud... Which kinda falls into the LeeFlower/Diana/etc. "focus" approach (which I lean toward as well).

Slight variation: instead of being a focus, per se, the words are a products of a conscious effort to unlock energy previously stored. They could be any words, but for the sake of casting method, assume that some magic has been salted away (in the brain/soul/mana/whatever) and the words open the channel up and allow the spell's energy to manifest as rehearsed.

Neeli said:
I mean, really. If magic existed, why would it "hear" our spoken words? True, if you speak the word "boil" to a cup of water long enough it will theoretically boil from the energy of sound waves bombarding it.

It really depends on what system of magic your story is going to use. At the moment, someone with a strong science background is going to reasonably assume that magic is a great flight of fancy and that's about it. That means that if you write a fantasy that involved magic, all you have to do is conceive a system that appears to make sense.

You're certainly not the first to have a problem with "saying the magic words" (my personal favorites are: "Ala Peanut Butter Sandwiches...!"), so go out and write a system that makes sense to you.

Ordinary_Guy · Oct 15, 2006

casualPhilosoph said:
Like I said today in another Forum...

Welcome amigo... :Thumbs:

Hope the site fits the bill. Not as "sciency" as SDC but you'll definitely get better feedback for writing contexts...

casualPhilosoph · Oct 15, 2006

thnx for the welcome

LloydBrown · Oct 16, 2006

Simon Woodhouse said:
I see it as being similar to a shot-putter making the big grunting noise when he heaves the ball of metal. The noise isn't necessary, it doesn't make the shot go any further, but he obviously feels the need to grunt.

Actually, a well-timed, forceful exhalation or shout can increase dynamic energy by up to 25%. Hence the martial arts kiai.

Higgins · Oct 16, 2006

Wouldn't your head boil first?

Neeli said:
I mean, really. If magic existed, why would it "hear" our spoken words? True, if you speak the word "boil" to a cup of water long enough it will theoretically boil from the energy of sound waves bombarding it.

If your voice will boil water some distance away, what about your head?

In practice, magic relies on other people's knowing about it. EG. boat-building magic tells the boatbuilders what stage of boatbuilding to do next.

If you want to propose a system of magic, you still might have to use words to specify to some entity what you the operator/Adept want.

Sage · Oct 16, 2006

Focusing the magic is definitely a good reason to explain using words in a magic system. While we often think & feel things without words, when we're actively thinking about them, we often use words. Makes sense that the same would apply for magic. Someone's unfocused power might make things happen due to strong emotions, but words would help focus.

And words do have power, no religion necessary. How many times have you heard/read a line from a song, movie, poem, book, etc. that moved you in some way? If words don't have some kind of power, why write them?

But of course, there's no reason all fictional magic systems need to agree, & one that doesn't need words is just as plausible as one that does.

zornhau · Oct 17, 2006

In the Medieval magical world view, words and other symbols have real objective power. In this way of thinking, "Drop dead" however intended, is actually a curse.

Neeli · Oct 17, 2006

Simon Woodhouse said:
I see it as being similar to a shot-putter making the big grunting noise when he heaves the ball of metal. The noise isn't necessary, it doesn't make the shot go any further, but he obviously feels the need to grunt.

<snicker> John McEnroe? I like your analogy.

Neeli · Oct 17, 2006

Sage said:
And words do have power, no religion necessary. How many times have you heard/read a line from a song, movie, poem, book, etc. that moved you in some way? If words don't have some kind of power, why write them?

Thoughts have power. Words are the vehicle. Knowing how to put thoughts into the right words...is magic.

Rivana · Oct 17, 2006

Neeli<<< Research Psionics at the Psipog website http://www.psipog.net
and
Direct Magic at The Library of Knowledge http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/tomekeeper
For wandless and spell-less magic.

Fantasy9 · Oct 17, 2006

It all depends on how the magic in your fantasy world works. For example, in my story, magic is somewhat of a living thing. It understands the "magic language" and does whatever it is told in that language.

But if you don't like magic words, you can always omit them. Like have the magic obey a person's thoughts instead of speech, or make it react based on whatever symbols a person draws, or a person's physical actions. The main point is, magic has to be told what it must do in some way (unless it has a mind of its own

) and speech is one the most common ways authors choose to do this.

Kentuk · Oct 17, 2006

Magic has come along way since the middle ages and it's roots are obscured by the magic revival of Victorian times. Go back far enough and prayer and words were a significant part of magic. Those who practiced it were hard to distinguish from the Christians of the time.
My point is that magic language and spells were the means to making it happen and to change that is to divorce magic from its roots. Much of the appeal of magic comes from its tradition and connection to ancient times.

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