Struggling With Length

blackbird · Oct 10, 2006

For the last several months I've been working hard on a screenplay adaptation of my novel. Thanks to some fortunate connections, it looks good that a deal may be imminent.

The question I have is that I'm still struggling with issues of length. The novel itself is a big story (over 1000 pages). And even though I've been as ruthless as possible with the script, cutting away every scene that doesn't expressly move the story forward, I honestly don't think there's any way I can get it down to less than 120 pages without severely sacrificing the story in the process.

I know that there have been many commercially succesful films that have bucked the trend by running longer than the standard two-hour length, some even running for three to four hours. Just a few examples that come immediately to mind...Dances With Wolves, Gone With the Wind, The Color Purple, Cold Mountain, Pirates of the Caribbean, The Joy Luck Club, Forrest Gump and probably many others that I could name off if I had the time. All of these were succesful and fine quality films that I love, and couldn't imagine any of them being shorter than what they are and still being as engaging or entertaining.

In light of this, what is any scriptwriter's chance of success with a script that may end up well past the 120 mark? I'm sure it probably makes for more difficult negotiations with distributors, but if the people backing your project really believe in it, and are willing to take the risk, is it possible?

And, as a second-parter to the question, if the script turns out to be an impossible sell as a theatrical project, would the odds be good of selling it as a mini-series? I know that mini-series used to be a TV staple but they don't seem nearly as prevalent today as in the past (though occasionally I'll still catch a series on cable, such as Into the West last year) so I'm wondering just how viable the market still is?

icerose · Oct 10, 2006

I am not in anyway an expert and this is merely my opinion.

It seems more mini-series are gaining interest, in fact several of the longer books such as Rose Red by King became a mini-series.

Part of it is financing, part of it is ambition, part of it is distribution.

Perhaps you can talk to the interested parties and see what they want from it. All else fails you can turn in the longer script and see from there.

Sassenach · Oct 10, 2006

blackbird said:
For the last several months I've been working hard on a screenplay adaptation of my novel. Thanks to some fortunate connections, it looks good that a deal may be imminent.

The question I have is that I'm still struggling with issues of length.

If a deal is "imminent" why is this a problem?

Jerm · Oct 10, 2006

I'll give you my 2¢'s, take it for what it's worth...

My first script is a sci-fi script with tons of details. When I finished it hit 146 pages! Whew! way too many. After correcting format, eliminating most all my (parentheticals) and dropping it into a scripting application like Final draft it was down to around 138.

I went back and cut it down eliminating a couple scenes and left it floating around 132 or 128, been so long I can't remember now. But anyways I had alot of trouble cutting back to get it down to the 120 count. I think alot of it was psychological, me just not wanting to cut it cause I knew it wouldn't be as good or what I wanted it to be without sacrifiing story.

So what I did is made a copy of my 130+ page script and set the original aside and stored it. Then I went into my copy and started hacking away. I have alot of descriptive scenes that I didn't want to get rid of but did anyways. I knew I would always have my original 130 page script with all the original content and I think alot of it was just me not wanting to let it go.

I am not sure if that's what you are struggling through or not. I found that description scenes are usually the easy way to cut fat without cutting too much story. Make the action scenes more like directions then descriptive. Let the reader snap through the scene.

I would say if you got a deal going and they are working with you, do whatever it takes to cut it down. Me I still have my original script in it's full entirety hoping to one day catch the dream and get the big budget to where I can make my full script into a 2 hour movie.

I'll tell you now though you are going to get mixed opinions on this site, some telling you to cut it down and some not to. It all comes down to you in the end.

Hope everything works out for you!

Break a Leg or whatever they say and keep hacking away!

blackbird · Oct 10, 2006

Sassenach said:
If a deal is "imminent" why is this a problem?

Because at this point the interest has been based on the novel, an outline, a treatment and the overall "idea." Everything else is still pending on the actual script, which they're still waiting to receive from me. And if that script comes in loaded with problems (such as a cumbersome length) it might not completely jeopardize the deal but will certainly make things more difficult.

I think that Jerm has a great idea, which is actually the procedure that I'm using to cut my novel down. My agent calls it an "alternate edit" rather than a revision or rewrite, which is probably a good way to put it. It makes you feel like the original hasn't necessarily been "sacrificed" but is only in waiting until its time is right.

Sassenach · Oct 10, 2006

I'd deliver a standard-length script then.

dpaterso · Oct 10, 2006

How much is "well past" the 120 mark?

Spec writers, especially those hoping to ping interest through queries, are obliged to confirm to the expected limits, 120 being the upper limit, as you know. But you've gone one step beyond this, you've got people interested, and they know it's an adaptation. So maybe they won't be too worried if you submit 130-something pages and simply tell them you're open to suggestions.

Shrug, just an opinion. Good luck with it.

-Derek
My Web Page - shameless vampyre fiction & other shameless writings.
And you know what? I think my syphilis is clearing right up.

scripter1 · Oct 10, 2006

How long is it?

First of all give us some idea how big of a challenge you are dealing with.
145 pages, or 200?

Second, cut all the extra stuff. Hack away the big descriptions and lengthy explanations. Since you are a novelist there is most likely just too much extra stuff there, too many words. It is okay to use fragmented sentences, and even three, two, or one word comments.

Go through the script looking for repetition. If there is a scene that tells us the same info we read ten pages back then cut one of them.

Do you have extra characters that don't really do much? Take them out.

Are your characters waiting to do things? Standing around in waiting rooms, riding elevators, sitting in a car just waiting? Cut, cut, cut.
If it isn't SLAMMING the story forward then take it out.
UNLESS of course you are in the middle of serious chase scene or a life and death situation and then it is GREAT tension to have to wait for an elevator.

All that is extra stuff, junk, cut it.

Third. Subplot. Novels can run two or three subplots without overwhelming the story. Not so in scripts. You need one clear plot line and then a subplot that SUPPORTS the main plot. Check to see if you have a secondary storyline that has been given too much attention.

Fourth. Combine. Combine locations and combine characters.

Fifth. Shorten dialog. Take out the extra words that we all skip in casual conversation. Are there moments where the characters should just shut up and have silence or speak more strongly through actions? Dialog eats pages. Eliminate chit-chat and pleasantries.

And finally, little stuff that goes a long way.
Take out almost all the "ing" verbs. Look for hanging chads or orphans. These are one word taking up an entire
line.
Eliminate many of the parentheticals. Use them sparingly and only when they add clarity.

Hope that helps.

BottomlessCup · Oct 10, 2006

I would say, if you're unsold, you gotta get it under 120.

Your connections are a big help, but it'll still have to make itpast a lot of desks. Being over-long is a risk I wouldn't take.

It's terribly hard to sell a spec, especially a first spec. Why bet it all on a rule that doesn't get broken very often? (None of the long scripts you mentioned were specs.)

Scripter's suggestions are great. Do whatever you have to, but get it to 120.

blackbird · Oct 10, 2006

Thanks all for the help and advice!

pansy · Oct 10, 2006

Objectivity

It might be dificult for you to be really objective on what to cut and what to keep. Think about having someone jump in and make some suggestions. Not a partner, just an objectve sounding board.

P

blackbird · Oct 11, 2006

pansy said:
It might be dificult for you to be really objective on what to cut and what to keep. Think about having someone jump in and make some suggestions. Not a partner, just an objectve sounding board.

P

I've been considering the possibility that if this thing does take off, I would not be adverse to collaborating with a more experienced screenwriter, someone who would really know the in's and out's. As long as they respect my vision of the story and its spirit, and it doesn't become a control issue, I would not have a problem with that at all. But the "control issue" is the key and I've had a lot of advance warnings that Hollywood is a place notorious for eating writers alive, especially literary writers. So even though I would be willing to collaborate, it would really come down to a matter of trust on both sides.

The objective sounding board idea is a good one. Yes, you've hit on the problem exactly. There's a lot of stuff in this story, and script, that I'm partial to. And a lot of scenes that readers of the novel have loved. But should they stay, or go? That's really the most difficult issue of all. I may want to argue that a certain scene is essential to the storyline whereas an objective reader might see it completely differently.

This always becomes apparent to me when I watch the deleted scenes that are available on the Special Features menu of most DVD movie releases. I watch those scenes sometimes for fun, but when it's all said and done, you realize the movie in its original form was much better and stronger BECAUSE those non-essential scenes were cut.

Still, there's an argument to be made for what may seem on first glance like "throwaway scenes." For example, the seemingly pointless banter that goes on between Jules and Vinny in "Pulp Fiction," about everything from what a Quarter Pounder is called in France to the personalities of dogs vs. pigs. I heard an interview where a critic was quoted as saying the very things that make that film work so well are the things that most directors and writers would have cut from it. Those "throwaway" bits worked because they gave the film its personality and charm, which is what audiences fell in love with.

So it all comes back to the original point that, yes, such decisions are extremely tough ones for any writer to make. The very scenes you may think are non-essential might end up being the one that makes audiences fall in love with the film and remember it forever. It's all an element of risk when you get right down to it.

What I might consider doing is having a diverse group of beta readers have a look at the first draft, and ask them directly, "In your opinion, which scenes bore you and which work? Which ones stay with you after you've read it? Which ones do you like and which ones would you cut if given the choice?" I don't know how that would work, but having outside readers address such specific questions would certainly give me a heads up on what is working and what isn't.

pansy · Oct 11, 2006

Script exchange

Consider a script exchange.

I would love to read your work, and in exchange you read one of mine.

... From un-adulterated viewpoints; ie. no logs, not synops, nothing that tells me which scenes are important to you, visa-versa, etc.

I would want to experience it as the audience would.

Just a thought.

P

blackbird · Oct 11, 2006

That sounds good, Pansy. Just PM me and we can set something up. I will say that it may be near the end of December before I'm actually ready to send it out, even to beta readers (it is still a WIP at this time) but if that's kosher with you, sure. I'd love it!

Big Tex · Oct 25, 2006

pansy said:
It might be dificult for you to be really objective on what to cut and what to keep. Think about having someone jump in and make some suggestions. Not a partner, just an objectve sounding board.

P

This is sound advice.

The question I would ask: Is it important to capture everything from your novel?

Movies like "From Here To Eternity" only use a small amount of the original novel's story threads. Maybe there is a "story within the story" that you really need to focus on.

whistlelock · Oct 25, 2006

My advice?

Turn your baby over to someone else (any prodco that buys it will anyway). Let them get the jist of your story onto the screen.

Jennifer Robins · Oct 26, 2006

This is a screen play we are talking about here, but what about a television movie? Wouldn't that be shorter because of all the commercials?
I am writing one for TV and only hope to have maybe 80-90 pages. Most movies on TV are about two hours with commercials.

Jennifer

Goodwriterguy · Oct 26, 2006

blackbird said:
I've been considering the possibility that if this thing does take off, I would not be adverse to collaborating with a more experienced screenwriter, someone who would really know the in's and out's. As long as they respect my vision of the story and its spirit, and it doesn't become a control issue, I would not have a problem with that at all. But the "control issue" is the key and I've had a lot of advance warnings that Hollywood is a place notorious for eating writers alive, especially literary writers. So even though I would be willing to collaborate, it would really come down to a matter of trust on both sides.
(snippage)

Like most of us I've been through this wringer too, working a 165 page epic Western down to 118 pages ... over the course of about a year, leaving tons of stuff on the cutting room floor I thought was absolutely necessary. But in the end I saw that all that stuff wasn't really quite so necessary afterall. I learned to write more economically and learned to fill scenes with more story information without making them longer, just writing them a bit differenty.

After this experience (which was on my very first screenplay) I never wrote another first draft that was longer than 120, and most of them have been down around 110, and there have been ten of them.

A year ago or so a writer friend in England emailed me said he had a piece that a prodco had read and liked but the producer had said, "Take 20 pages out of it and we'll talk." It was like 134 at that point and my friend was utterly stuck. Would I take a whack it it for him?

Sure, why not.

Basically, it was a breeze and I returned it to him at like 112-114 pages, making him supremely happy of course. None of the story's key meat was cut, the reduction came through more economical writing, trimming speeches, and eliminating some scenes that just plain weren't needed.

As a novelist and first timer with a screenplay the odds are you haven't yet acquired the screenwriter's economy, which includes the use of subtext to convey story information and inference. You can imply things instead of putting them on the screen; you can infer things instead of putting them on the screen, you can subsume some stuff to subtext ... and an audience (or a reader) will "get" all this stuff. There is the idea of the "offscreen" movie, where all this implied or inferred stuff happens. [Redacted--JDM] over at [Redacted--JDM] has written about the "offscreen" movie, you might check his columns at Link deleted by request of the webmaster of the other site and find the one in which he discusses this concept.

Don't be real hard on yourself over this, it appears to me to be nothing more than the naturally occurring learning that goes on when one takes on the job of screenwriting. Getting to the economy that professionals exhibit doesn't happen overnight, there are hundreds of little angles of technique to that part of the trade, most of which aren't obvious to the uninitiated.

Since you're under deadline pressure you're probably going to have to get some help with this, you can't expect to learn everything it would take in the coming few weeks. I'd be into giving you a hand with it, a read and some comments and suggestions if nothing else. PM me.

In any case, good luck with it, and keep plugging!

Goodwriterguy · Oct 26, 2006

blackbird said:
I've been considering the possibility that if this thing does take off, I would not be adverse to collaborating with a more experienced screenwriter, someone who would really know the in's and out's. As long as they respect my vision of the story and its spirit, and it doesn't become a control issue, I would not have a problem with that at all. But the "control issue" is the key and I've had a lot of advance warnings that Hollywood is a place notorious for eating writers alive, especially literary writers. So even though I would be willing to collaborate, it would really come down to a matter of trust on both sides.
(snippage)

Like most of us I've been through this wringer too, working a 165 page epic Western down to 118 pages ... over the course of about a year, leaving tons of stuff on the cutting room floor I thought was absolutely necessary. But in the end I saw that all that stuff wasn't really necessary. I learned to write more economically and learned to fill scenes with more story information without making them longer, just writing them a bit differenty.

After this experience (which was on my very first screenplay) I never wrote another firstd raft that was longer than 120, and most of them have been down around 110, and there have been ten of them.

A year ago or so a writer friend in England emailed me said he had a piece that a prodco had read and liked but the producer said, "Take 20 pages out of it and we'll talk." It was like 134 at that point and my friend was utterly stuck. Would I take a whack it it for him?

Sure, why not.

Basically, it was a breeze and I returned it to him at like 112-114 pages, making him supremely happy of course. None of the story's key meat was cut, the reduction came through more economical writing, trimming speeches, and eliminating some scenes that just plain weren't needed.

As a novelist and first timer with a screenplay the odds are you haven't yet acquired the screenwriter's economy, which includes the use of subtext to convey story information and inference. You can imply things instead of putting them on the screen; you can infer things instead of putting them on the screen, you can subsume some stuiff to subtext ... and an audeince (or a reader) will get all this stuff. There is the idea of the "offscreen" movie, where all this implied or inferred stuff happens. [Redacted--JDM] over at [Redacted--JDM] has written about the "offscreen" movie, you might check his columns at Link Deleted by request of the webmaster of the other site and find the one in which he discusses this concept.

Don't be real hard on yourself over this, it appears to me to be nothing more than the naturally occurring learning that goes on when one takes on the job of screenwriting. Getting to the economy that professionals exhibit doesn't happen overnight, there are hundreds of little angles of technique to that part of the trade, most of which aren't obvious to the uninitiated.

Since you're under deadline pressure you're proibably going to have to get some help with this, you can't expect to learn everything it would take in the coming few weeks. I'd be into giving you a hand with it, a read and some comments and suggestions if nothing else.

In any case, good luck with it, and keep plugging!

English Dave · Oct 26, 2006

Define needless.

dpaterso · Oct 26, 2006

needless adj. 1 unnecessary. 2 uncalled for. needlessly adv. ~Oxford Ref

-Derek
My Web Page - sci-fi, fantasy, horror, cyborgs, AIs, dragons, vampyres.
Aw shucks, Thunder-buns, you make me feel like a million volts.

Struggling With Length

blackbird

icerose

Lost in School Work

Sassenach

5 W's & an H

Jerm

blackbird

Sassenach

5 W's & an H

dpaterso

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scripter1

Article Queen

BottomlessCup

Getting settled

blackbird

pansy

blackbird

pansy

blackbird

Big Tex

whistlelock

Whiskey Rebel

Jennifer Robins

paranormal interest

Goodwriterguy

Goodwriterguy

English Dave

dpaterso

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