Breaking the Rules

janetbellinger · Oct 5, 2006

I am reading a new novel by Two time Booker award winning Peter Carey, called "Theft." It is in first person POV and begins with "I don't think..." which you'd think would automatically break the "hook me in twenty wor ds or less," rule. It also uses a lot of interior dialogue, which I have been deleting from my own novel, "Rain." "Theft," is a magnificent novel by a gifted author and proves that it is all in the story, that you shouldn't get too swept up in rules but concentrate on telling a powerful story. Just my two cents worth. I hope for a happy, safe and peaceful weekend for all members.

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 5, 2006

What is the rest of the sentence? "I don't think..." doesn't tell me much.

And I thought 1st person POV's strongest point was it COULD have internal monologue.

Gillhoughly · Oct 5, 2006

Nearly all my books are in 1st person. Only after I sold the first six did a thoughtful soul inform me that it was the most difficult to write--and I just couldn't get my head around that one at all. First person seemed the most natural way to tell the story. All my fav genre books by Hammett, Chandler, Dick Francis, Adam Hall, Conan Doyle, Stoker, Poe, and heck, Mickey Spillane, were in first person.

It took a bit of study and practice to get the hang of 3rd person subjective, and I refuse to do 3rd omniscient because it puts a barrier between me and the characters.

To get it done right and done well for oneself is to hit the library and read the ol' timers who were very, very good at it. Figure out how they did it.

My quirk is getting inside each character's skin and do all I can to imagine what their life is like. It is radically different from my own life so their thinking is going to be different from mine. Their way of solving problems will be very different.

It's like acting; you pull on the character, let him strut and fret his hour on the stage in your head, then knock off and have a backstage beer at the cast party.

LeeFlower · Oct 5, 2006

The only hard-and-fast rule, as I understand it, is don't bore the reader. Everything else is more like a guideline.

Soccer Mom · Oct 5, 2006

I agree that the only rule you can't break is don't bore the reader.

Personally, I find 1st person POV the easiest because l like "becoming" the MC. I'm experimenting with a 3rd per/Omniscient and it's a booger!

I like to read first person too. So I say break them rules to bits if it works for you.

ORION · Oct 5, 2006

There are no rules.

PeeDee · Oct 5, 2006

I'm in agreement with Gillhoughly and Soccer Mom. When I'm having trouble getting a story to fit into my head, I usually write it almost automatically in first person, just because that's the easiest way for me to write.

If you read a book, you enjoy the book, and the book is breaking all the rules of writing...then go ahead and write yourself a new set of rules. I think that bothers beginnner writers more than anything else. If it works, you can do it. There aren't any set rules.

maestrowork · Oct 5, 2006

How is 1st person or internal monologue breaking the rules? They're both part of the writer's toolbox. The only thing you need to worry about is how to use these tools to hook and hold your readers, make them care about your characters and want to turn the pages.

PeeDee · Oct 5, 2006

I'd be very ticked off if either of those things became "against the rules."

It wouldn't stop me from using 'em, though...

batgirl · Oct 5, 2006

When I was studying German in university, what I loved about it (compared to French or especially to English) is that it has Rules. Heck, even the irregular verbs are regular. Follow those rules and you're okay, alles ist gut.
Then I got into fourth year. They gave us the news - all those rules you memorised? Many can be broken. You just have to know enough about the language as a whole to understand how and when and why they should be broken.
That's the trick.

Recently I was searching for examples of 'short passages of action, dialogue or whatever that illuminate a character for you' which sounds fairly easy. I went through three books: A Civil Contract, by Georgette Heyer, The Wee Free Men, by Terry Pratchett, and When the Lights Go Out, by Tanith Lee, trying to avoid being sucked into the narrative with a swooshing noise.
All three of them had heaps of telling. There was showing, sure, but in all three the authorial voice filled me in on all sorts of background and character info that wasn't directly on view. And I was not bored, I wasn't jarred out of the story. Because I wanted to know all the unseen stuff - the authors made me want to know.

-Barbara

Papa'sLiver · Oct 5, 2006

First person is all about internal thought, that's one of the fun parts of it.

I'm writing in 3rd person subjective (is that what it's called?) for the first time, and it's much harder for me than 1st person. All my short stories that have been published are in the 1st person, except for maybe two of them.

Akuma · Oct 5, 2006

Ever heard of Cormac McCarthy?

Ken Schneider · Oct 5, 2006

There are plenty of rules that should be followed. Don't fall into the trap of write and don't worry. The editor you send the ms to, knows.

You have to know the rules, and how to munipulate them to break them.

Good luck in your writing all.

PeeDee · Oct 5, 2006

Ken Schneider said:
You have to know the rules, and how to munipulate them to break them.

A good writer could take out the word "rules" and insert the word "hearts."

Cassiopeia · Oct 5, 2006

And here I thought I was supposed to only write in third person. Go figure. Third person comes naturally to me but I will consider writing the next one in first. Should be interesting.

PeeDee · Oct 5, 2006

Casiopeia said:
And here I thought I was supposed to only write in third person. Go figure. Third person comes naturally to me but I will consider writing the next one in first. Should be interesting.

Did you seriously think you were only supposed to write in third person? Really?

Cassiopeia · Oct 5, 2006

PeeDee said:
Did you seriously think you were only supposed to write in third person? Really?

Yes...I thought that fictional stories should be in third person and experience books first person.

PeeDee · Oct 5, 2006

Casiopeia said:
Yes...I thought that fictional stories should be in third person and experience books first person.

Gee. *blink blink*

I'm glad you're here, then. You should write some fiction in the first person. It's so much fun. It's like chocolate.

(unless you don't like chocolate.)

Cassiopeia · Oct 5, 2006

PeeDee said:
Gee. *blink blink*

I'm glad you're here, then. You should write some fiction in the first person. It's so much fun. It's like chocolate.

(unless you don't like chocolate.)

Just promise me it won't make me fat.

PeeDee · Oct 5, 2006

That's the beauty of it!

Cassiopeia · Oct 5, 2006

PeeDee said:
That's the beauty of it!

So...it would really be a challenge for me...I would have to pick which character I want to see from that pov...and then the rest? how do you develop their character..just by action and dialog? No insight into their thoughts would be difficult.

KTC · Oct 5, 2006

I think you should bust all rules whenever they don't work with your own personal vision. Rules are there for a reason, granted. But if you have this vision and it works, but does not conform to the rules...ignore them.

PeeDee · Oct 5, 2006

Casiopeia said:
So...it would really be a challenge for me...I would have to pick which character I want to see from that pov...and then the rest? how do you develop their character..just by action and dialog? No insight into their thoughts would be difficult.

of course you have insight into their thoughts. You have your POV character who can wonder what they're thinking and guess what they're thinking about.

Plus, unless you're doing some head-hopping, then you're not much in other character's heads anyway, except in new scenes.

First person is (apparently) hard to write. For me, it's sweet music and I adore doing it. I love it because the language really changes. Plus, if you get into writing first-person, you'll find your language changing when you go back to writing in third-person.

Cassiopeia · Oct 5, 2006

PeeDee said:
of course you have insight into their thoughts. You have your POV character who can wonder what they're thinking and guess what they're thinking about.

Plus, unless you're doing some head-hopping, then you're not much in other character's heads anyway, except in new scenes.

First person is (apparently) hard to write. For me, it's sweet music and I adore doing it. I love it because the language really changes. Plus, if you get into writing first-person, you'll find your language changing when you go back to writing in third-person.

Interesting...well I have over 60,000 words written on my current WIP so perhaps I can try something a bit different with the next one. IN fact...*light dawns* I have a book someone asked me to approach only they want it like an experience book...perhaps I can fictionalize it from first person and then it won't be so personal to me. *hmmm...ponders*

PeeDee · Oct 5, 2006

One of my favorite examples of well done first-person narrative is The Icarus Hunt by Timothy Zahn (a man whom I owe a great deal anyway). He hides a major detail about the main character from you all the way through the novel until the very end, when it shows up as a twist.

The beauty of it is, it doesn't feel like a cop-out or a deus ex at all. The way it works, you realize that the main character didn't mention it because it was something assumed that he wouldn't talk about. It was great. I loved it.

My favorite first person narrative are the Amber books by Roger Zelazny. You can do a lot worse than strive to be like Zelazny. That man was incredible.

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