What is a dative infinitive?
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I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure it's basically the same as a gerund. In English, at least.
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Methinks and whom are all that are left in English. The dative case died out after the Norman Conquest. The dative modifies an objective and exists in German.
The question doesn't make sense. It is rather like asking what case is this verb.
please clarify...does not compute....please clarify...poof...pop...smoke..meltdown... ..
The question doesn't make sense. It is rather like asking what case is this verb.
please clarify...does not compute....please clarify...poof...pop...smoke..meltdown... ..
I just googled "dative" and read the entire page about it on Wikipedia.
My head hurts. And I think I actually know less than I did before. However, I did learn this little bit of information that I think will impress all my friends at the game this weekend.
ETA: This actually kind of works. What?
My head hurts. And I think I actually know less than I did before. However, I did learn this little bit of information that I think will impress all my friends at the game this weekend.
ETA: This actually kind of works. What?
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Pash
If you're taking a graduate level course in linguistics, you should already know this stuff. Please tell me we're not doing your homework for you?
That said:
In Old English, which has a dative case, and in some dialects of Middle English, the dative infinitive would be something like:
Ic habbe mead to dronke.
I have mead to drink.
You have the noun in the dative (usually the -e form) followed by the infinitive.
In Modern English the dative infinitive is a synonym in some almost obsolete grammatical nomenclatures for what is now customarily called the verbal or participal nouns (which may not be identical, always, in form, with the gerund) when it denotes a transitive action like kicking a ball.
If you're taking a graduate level course in linguistics, you should already know this stuff. Please tell me we're not doing your homework for you?
That said:
In Old English, which has a dative case, and in some dialects of Middle English, the dative infinitive would be something like:
Ic habbe mead to dronke.
I have mead to drink.
You have the noun in the dative (usually the -e form) followed by the infinitive.
In Modern English the dative infinitive is a synonym in some almost obsolete grammatical nomenclatures for what is now customarily called the verbal or participal nouns (which may not be identical, always, in form, with the gerund) when it denotes a transitive action like kicking a ball.
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Eh?
I still want Pash to explain things.
I have what used to be a perfectly good positronic brain
emitting wimpering puffs of smoke on the floor.
Pash what have you done to my pet brain?
I still want Pash to explain things.
I have what used to be a perfectly good positronic brain
emitting wimpering puffs of smoke on the floor.
Pash what have you done to my pet brain?
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Interesting. Sounds like a different usage from Russian.Medievalist said:
Russian also has the dative case, but it's one of the cases used when the object is indirect (let's see how my memory is; it's been a long time since high school), when the preposition is 'at', 'on', or 'to'. "Put the pen on the table", for example.
In Russian, the transitive action is expressed, as I recall, by the accusative case.
poetinahat said:
In English, even Old English, the only way to express the infinitive is by using to; to means the following noun, with rare exceptions, is going to take the dative.
Now, even in Old English, the dative form of most nouns, is not that different (Anglo-Saxon lost most of its cases already) but since the only way to get the infinitive is to use "to" then it's both dative and infinitive.
Plus I'm being snarky because using terms derived from Latin grammar and trying to make them, and Latin grammar, work for English is, well, not logical.
Not that I think Chomsky is much better . . .
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Kentuk said:
Context:
The [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]OED [/FONT](s.v. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]have[/FONT], def. 7a) gives the following definition for [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]have + [/FONT]object [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]+ to [/FONT]V: "to possess as a duty or thing to be done. With object and dative inf. expressing what is to be done by the subject".
I need examples.
I need examples.
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brianm said:
OK, too many negative reactions and unfounded accusations. I'm outta this thread. See you in another one.
pash said:
Uh, wait a minute.
You, finally, posted an explanation, after a week, in the Newbies thread; you're a NNES. That provided a context, in part.
But until just now, you've never provided a specific context for your queries -- in fact your questions and your responses to posts are identical to those of students who are in fact using AW members to do their home work.
It wasn't unfounded at all. It was quite reasonable.
People other than the OPs learn things from these threads, so I don't see a problem with any grammar question whether it's for homework or out of curiousity. Is this not supposed to be a resource for anyone who comes to AW? I read most of the grammar threads and have learned a few things.
When I ask a question about grammar in a grammar forum, I don't expect people to analyse and judge my motives, or question my education or intelligence, but to answer the question or not answer it as they see fit. If anyone feels the question is not worth their time, for whatever reason, then they can choose not to answer it.
As far as learning something from this thread--I still have no idea what you people are talking about.
When I ask a question about grammar in a grammar forum, I don't expect people to analyse and judge my motives, or question my education or intelligence, but to answer the question or not answer it as they see fit. If anyone feels the question is not worth their time, for whatever reason, then they can choose not to answer it.
As far as learning something from this thread--I still have no idea what you people are talking about.
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rudeness
And your question was reasonable. But, when a repondent gives an answer stating that your assumptions are incorrect, it is normally seen as rude for another poster to the cast doubt upon the truth of the respondent's reply.
It is that way where I come from anyway.
Medievalist said:
And your question was reasonable. But, when a repondent gives an answer stating that your assumptions are incorrect, it is normally seen as rude for another poster to the cast doubt upon the truth of the respondent's reply.
It is that way where I come from anyway.
rekirts said:People other than the OPs learn things from these threads, so I don't see a problem with any grammar question whether it's for homework or out of curiousity. Is this not supposed to be a resource for anyone who comes to AW? I read most of the grammar threads and have learned a few things.
When I ask a question about grammar in a grammar forum, I don't expect people to analyse and judge my motives, or question my education or intelligence, but to answer the question or not answer it as they see fit. If anyone feels the question is not worth their time, for whatever reason, then they can choose not to answer it.
As far as learning something from this thread--I still have no idea what you people are talking about.
Well said. I wasn't asking for help with homework, which is an odd word to use in regard to a graduate degree course anyway, but I was asking for a native speaker's defintion of a linguistic term. Simply that. Also, if these native speakers don't want to help with homework, I can understand their reasoning if referring to a child or teenager who may need to think for him/herself, but I think they are in error if attempting to tell the same to a mature man or woman.
It's like a schoolhouse mentality.
pash said:
Oh get off it. First of all, native speakers of English aren't going to know the terminology you're using (terminology you are using without understanding, by the way) and they're going to be providing answers based on their idiolect. In fact, you don't even know that your respondents are native speakers.
You're asking directed questions from an academic context, but you didn't provide the context. My query was a query -- I didn't make an accusation, I merely said "Please tell me we're not doing your homework for you?" It's a reasonable question, particularly given the inadequate context you've provided.
Secondly, NNES or not, you are asking questions that suggest that not only are you not a native speaker of English -- which is fine; there's no reason you should be -- but you don't know the basics of the field you're studying.
By basics, I mean the sort of thing covered in a introduction to linguistics for undergrads who are not themselves linguistics majors.
By basics, I mean you don't even seem to have enough of a clue to use a dictionary -- which would answer a fair number of your questions.
By basics, I mean you don't seem to even understand that language exists in context, both in a particular context (where the instances occur and the language surrounding them) and a social context (why you are asking the questions) indicates, well, the kindest thing I can say, is that it suggests a paucity of thought.
It's a little odd, possibly even disconcerting.
Graduate courses do involve homework, they do involve independent study, and the idea is that you do the work, not ask someone else for the answers.
I suggest you get yourself a very basic introduction to linguistics text, and a history of the English language text and start perusing. You might then pick up one of the English grammar texts for specialists, since they tend to explain the various systems of grammar terminology and ways of looking at English grammar and syntax, most of which frequently seem to make very little sense when used in the aggregate. You might also watch for the grammar texts by Marianne Celce-Murcia, since she covers a lot of the usage and grammar of English specifically for NNES and ESL teachers. Her work is extremely well-regarded and astonishingly helpful in making sense of our beloved but bizarre language.
I wish you well in your course; the prognosis is less than positive, if this is your usual approach to learning.
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< My query was a query -- I didn't make an accustation, I merely said "Please tell me we're not doing your homework for you?" It's a reasonable question, particularly given the inadequate context you've provided.>
Did you read this at all?
<<And your question was reasonable.>>
<but you don't know the basics of the field you're studying.>
Which is quite common when entering as a mature student upon a masters course and in a new field of study.
<By basics, I mean you don't even seem to have enough of a clue to use a dictionary -- which would answer a fair number of your questions.>
Enough. Your rudeness it now gone to far.
Did you read this at all?
<<And your question was reasonable.>>
<but you don't know the basics of the field you're studying.>
Which is quite common when entering as a mature student upon a masters course and in a new field of study.
<By basics, I mean you don't even seem to have enough of a clue to use a dictionary -- which would answer a fair number of your questions.>
Enough. Your rudeness it now gone to far.
Pash, take a step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath. The other members did not attack you but asked for some background in order to best decide how to help you.
The thing about terminology is none of it is absolute. There are different definitions based upon what perspective or field of study you are approaching it from.
As for graduate studies having homework: Yes, they do. Lots of it. The syllabi my professors give me confirms that.
The thing about terminology is none of it is absolute. There are different definitions based upon what perspective or field of study you are approaching it from.
As for graduate studies having homework: Yes, they do. Lots of it. The syllabi my professors give me confirms that.
No. You see a moderator responding to discord in the community and who has read the entire thread and made a judgment about the situation.
Arguing with people who are trying to help you is not the best way to win friends, Pash. Asking members to take a step back is a standard, first course of action on this board, because we believe the majority of our members are responsible adults capable of controlling their own interactions with one another.
Arguing with people who are trying to help you is not the best way to win friends, Pash. Asking members to take a step back is a standard, first course of action on this board, because we believe the majority of our members are responsible adults capable of controlling their own interactions with one another.
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No, I don't believe you sense clique. If so, I am outside the clique, because I don't have a clue about any of the grammatical terms used--and I used to think I was quite clever at grammar. Maybe I was at elementary school grammar, but this is beyond my ken. So, please view me as a neutral party.
It does seem--well, odd--that you ask many questions. And there isn't anything wrong with that, but I don't believe (and I'd stand to be corrected) that I've seen your input in any thread in which you're not asking the question. We all ask sometimes, and help sometimes. (Mind, there are some dead clever people on this board who do a lot more answering than asking!
) And when someone comes out with strings of questions but does not contribute, it could be construed that they are looking for an easy way to do research. And don't say "I can't contribute; I'm only learning"; we're all learning.
It does seem--well, odd--that you ask many questions. And there isn't anything wrong with that, but I don't believe (and I'd stand to be corrected) that I've seen your input in any thread in which you're not asking the question. We all ask sometimes, and help sometimes. (Mind, there are some dead clever people on this board who do a lot more answering than asking!
) And when someone comes out with strings of questions but does not contribute, it could be construed that they are looking for an easy way to do research. And don't say "I can't contribute; I'm only learning"; we're all learning.Sandi LeFaucheur said:
Or that they/she/he is a NNES and does not feel it is her/his place to advise on a language which is not his/hers.
/With all due respect, this is a personal jab that doesn't add anything constructive to the conversation.
Yes, I will step back from the board as it seems to be one of those snark fest times in more than one forum.
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