And she's an ENGLISH teacher?!

IReidandWrite · Sep 18, 2006

So I gave the first five pages of my manuscript for my English teacher to read.

I got it today, and every punctuation, where I'd finished a sentence (even with a question) got a ',' marking instead of '.' or '?'....

GAH!

zarch · Sep 18, 2006

I'm confused. So she just went through your manuscript with a red pen and changed all end punctuation to commas?

IReidandWrite · Sep 18, 2006

Pretty much all of it.

Like one example:

"Do you want to move on?" my version....

to

"Do you want to move on," to her version.

soloset · Sep 18, 2006

That makes no sense. ALL of it? Dialogue I could see, but... just like:

Bleh blah blah. Bleh bleh? Blah Blah! "Blah," she said.

to

Bleh blah blah, Bleh bleh, Blah Blah, "Blah," she said,

That makes my brain hurt.

Carrie in PA · Sep 18, 2006

That's just wrong. She sounds like a commaholic.

I'd smile and say thanks... then never give her any more pages to read.

Vincent · Sep 18, 2006

What do you expect. She's an English teacher.

rugcat · Sep 18, 2006

Are you talking about dialogue?

"I thought you'd say that," she said. As opposed to:

"I thought you'd say that." she said. Or

"I thought you'd say that." She said.

emeraldcite · Sep 18, 2006

What do you expect. She's an English teacher.

Hey, watch it buster.

Yeah, do you have any examples of the kinds of things she changed?

Also, a good English teacher won't always make a good writing teacher.

Writing fiction is a different monster than writing papers. Also, just because they like literature and can discuss literature doesn't mean they can teach creative writing.

ETA: You'd be surprised how much "English" an English education major actually has to take for their degree...

Jack_Roberts · Sep 18, 2006

I'll always be greatful to Jeff, the English teacher who looked at my novel. He pointed out lots of things that I missed.

But he also told me to change some things I shouldn't had. Some things, like stressed words should be italic instead of caps (they are really supposed to be underlined) caused me to painfully go through and correct his suggested changes.

Still, all in all, he did a good job.

Sorry you had a problem with yours.

Deleted member 42 · Sep 18, 2006

She's probably confusing the usual punctuation of a quotation in an academic context, that is, non dialog, with proper punctuation for dialog.

Teachers are not taught how to do critiques of fiction; heck, most K-12 teachers aren't even really taught how to respond to writing at a level other than grammar and spelling.

Training teachers to respond to writing is getting better, but there are still scads of people with Ph.D.s entering classrooms at colleges who have never ever taught before, never mind the fact that k-12 are not really taught to teach "creative" writing.

Birol · Sep 18, 2006

With respect to emeraldcite, K-12 English classroom instruction is geared more toward formal writing, such as you would find in a business or academic environment. Thus, if you have a skilled English teacher, this is their area of expertise. Creative writing, although related, is not the same.

fjeastman · Sep 18, 2006

I've taught English before. At the college level, even.

The only thing I can think of that she would be changing would be dialog.

Unless you have a convoluted personal style that includes tons and tons of fragments that she was suggesting you combine into full sentences.

For my part, my own program stressed a concentration on voice, language, and audience/author relationships as opposed to gramatical conventions (which are always in a state of change).

Unless she was crazy, what she changed in your MS most likely made it fall more in line with Standard American English than not ... even if you or others feel it didn't make a literary improvement.

--fje

zarch · Sep 19, 2006

I teach high school English and college writing, folks, and I can't stand it when people on these boards make generalizations about English teachers.

"What do you expect? She's an English teacher."

WHAT????????

johnnysannie · Sep 19, 2006

In the last couple of years, several of my children's teachers have asked me to present a session on creative writing to their class to help the students improve overall writing skills. In our state, writing ability is now part of the state wide assessment tests but the teachers were willing to admit that creative writing was outside their knowledge base.

Christine N. · Sep 19, 2006

That's silly. My eighth grade English teacher went over every rule of writing, including dialogue. I think one of my textbooks was Strunk and White, for cripes' sake. I mean more like grammar, not creative writing rules, but I would think an English teacher knows where the comma goes between a dialogue and tag.

Wait a minute. The 8th grade English class I subbed for last year covered this very thing! We were reviewing for the final exam and I remember very distinctly going over commas between the end of dialogue and what they called the 'speaker tag'.
So where did THIS teacher go to school? Or did she just not read the course guide? Just not understanding, is all. Does she teach a grade lower than 8th?

Maybe there's no school like the old school. Sigh. Hey, go out and get your teacher a copy of Eats, Shoots and Leaves as a present. Great book. Or just get a copy for yourself and that way you won't have to ask her again. LOL.

This speaks rather poorly, not of the educational system, because I know it's being taught in some places, but of her as a teacher. The best teachers say "I don't know, but I'll find out."

zarch · Sep 19, 2006

Exactly, Christine. This specific example (the OP's post) is commentary on her English teacher's goofballness. The high school where I teach sports a literary magazine and several English teachers who are creative writers/poets.

In fact, I wonder if there was a misunderstanding between the OP and her teacher. I mean, surely all English teachers know how to use end punctuation.

fjeastman · Sep 19, 2006

That's what several people have suggested, I think we're waiting on the OP to post up some fully contextualized examples.

As a poor college student, on more than one occasion I've had the bank tell me: "You've got no money, pal."

And I've said, "Yer crazy, toots. Crazy. Absolutely bonkers and looney-toons. Lemmie see that there register, eh?"

And then, in the final accounting, found out they were right. Broke. Again.

>.<

--fje

Ralyks · Sep 19, 2006

This has nothing to do with creative writing. English teachers should know how to use punctuation. I'd love to see some examples of specific sentences she changed. But I do know it is no longer fashionable to teach grammar in school, so I wouldn't be shocked if an English teacher had grammar problems.

PeeDee · Sep 19, 2006

English teachers are on my list, right next to librarians. Way at the top of the list. I adore them all. Here are some of the last bastions of civilization, and considering everything is an uphill battle for them (for the good ones) I am proud when they accomplish anything.

That said, like emeraldcite said, just because she's an English teacher doesn't mean she knows the first thing about writing a story, or how the mechanics of a story work.

An eye doctor is still a doctor, but I wouldn't trust him to get inside my brain. So please, don't say "just an English teacher," go talk to her and find out why she replaced the commas. Talk to her. Have opinions, for god's sake have reasons behind them. Talk, debate (politely, please) and find out that your English teacher is probably a wonderful person, very intelligent, doing the best she can.

Even if she can't punctuate your dialogue correctly (Neither, I should point out, can seventy percent of young writers) (neither, I should point out in honesty, can I some of the time) I bet there's still a lot of stuff she can teach you.

That said, remember when her opinions start going to different places than what you know about writing, consider them and consider them carefully, but do remember that optomotrist ain't neurosurgeon.

Shadow_Ferret · Sep 19, 2006

I find the attacks on English teachers rather amusing since many of us probably wouldn't be where we are today if it weren't for an English teacher somewhere in our past who somehow nurtured us.

And second, I don't think we can really speculate much further on this whole subject until the OP gives us some full examples, not exerpts, of the corrections in question.

PeeDee · Sep 19, 2006

Shadow_Ferret said:
And second, I don't think we can really speculate much further on this whole subject until the OP gives us some full examples, not exerpts, of the corrections in question.

Of course we can. We always do. When have any of us let facts and lack of information stop us from talking about something?

PattiTheWicked · Sep 19, 2006

In high school, their job is to teach you effective communication skills -- speaking like someone with half a brain, writing a letter that includes absolutely no l33tspeek at all, and how to critically think about what you read. Regardless, though, any English teacher should know the proper use of a comma, so I'd love to see some specific Before and After examples of what was changed.

That being said, some of my favorite instructors in high school and college were English teachers. Only ONE actually taught me anything about creative writing, though, and I still have my papers with his grades and comments on them.

So, Dr. Robert Clarke, if you're out there, thank you for everything you taught me.

Birol · Sep 19, 2006

Shadow_Ferret said:
I find the attacks on English teachers rather amusing since many of us probably wouldn't be where we are today if it weren't for an English teacher somewhere in our past who somehow nurtured us.

I only see one person who has said anything that might be constituted as outright dismissal of English teachers' abilities.

As for nurturing us, I'm certain there's at least one English teacher who would like to take the credit for my love of the English language, but they would be wrong. My love of words and the stories they form came from home.

Shadow_Ferret · Sep 19, 2006

PeeDee said:
Of course we can. We always do. When have any of us let facts and lack of information stop us from talking about something?

No, we can't, but we will, and that's a different thing altogether. :tongue

Birol said:
As for nurturing us, I'm certain there's at least one English teacher who would like to take the credit for my love of the English language, but they would be wrong. My love of words and the stories they form came from home.

Maybe nurturing was the wrong word, mentoring or at the very least, teaching us HOW to write. I don't know about the rest of you, but I did have several creative writing and composition classes through high school that started me down this desperate path.

Christine N. · Sep 19, 2006

I'm not criticizing English teachers. My mother was and English teachers, I LOVED my English teachers. I'm with PD and I love librarians too, my aunt is a middle school librarian.

I'm criticizing this particular English teacher, and I'm even reserving judgment until I see what she actually changed.

I know what's being taught, at least in my own neck of the woods, and this IS part of the curriculum. I know what was taught when I was in school, and this was certainly part of it.

Now we need to see the offending changes to make a final decision.

The one example that she did give was certainly way off base, because you do use a question mark at the end of a question, even in dialogue with a speaker tag.

And she's an ENGLISH teacher?!

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