Phenomenology

Ordinary_Guy · Sep 17, 2006

Phenomena...
[doo-doodoo-doo]

~~Incidents That Go Beyond the Call of Nature~~...

No, no... Sorry, that sounds terrible (and only the whiz-kids will answer). How about "beyond nature"? As in "supernatural"? Or "preternatural"?

...Or "magic"?

How do you define the different aspects of the unknown? Feel free to drop the preter/supernatural definitions in here. Talk about your take on magic, forms of psionics, the origins of mythology (classical or urban) or any form metaphysics you think overlaps with these subjects.

Shweta · Sep 17, 2006

Yay spinoff thread.

As I was saying on the other thread... I think my personal belief system is very much like a Sandman quote. Which, of course, I don't know, and am too lazy to look up.

It's something like "I believe in weird sh*t."

Things like... hm. I have a friend in Scotland who "links" to me. We can both tell when it's happened, we both get giggly, and he starts telling me what I'm thinking. Like, describing scenes I'm imagining vividly, when I haven't actually told them what they are (often right before I hit enter on doing so). This happens a lot when we're playing the RPG I run.

Things like being told that I had met my then-future husband at a time when... well yes, I'd technically met him, if allowing the smiley kid to join the dinner my student group was hosting was really meeting. I didn't even remember him till the next time I met him.

*shrug*

Lots and lots of those, none of them entirely convincing by itself, all of them together, over the last 10 years or so, pushing me out of skepticism.
Which is not to say I think anyone else should believe this. I wouldn't if it hadn't happened to me. I hope everyone's relatively skeptical, really.

Oh, one data point that might be interesting is the set of tarot readings players have done for my game -- where the characters know how to do tarot etc, I let the players do readings and use them, and don't tell them what's right and what's wrong. In about ... 15-20 readings, I think *one* didn't make sense based on what I had already decided. And that's not just my interpretations (I already knew, so my readings could be skewed). This is based on the interpretations players made, while I sat on the other end of an irc screen saying nothing, just smiling sweetly at them every couple lines no matter what they said. They were close enought aht... welll ... it was really hard to surprise them.

(I wasn't just being predictable, I think; they were at least surprised by their readings).

...More on this when I have a brain.

Kevin Yarbrough · Sep 17, 2006

In my WIP I take the Bible and a lot of the mythology and combine them to where one set of creatures created everything we know. They created us, all our myths are based on them, and the Bible is a brief reference to their lives here on Earth. Can I pull it off? I'm hoping I can. The scope of the story is huge and it brings in all of our history and explains it very simply.

What other story can you read where Moses and Atlantis are connected? Osiris and the disapperance of the Mayans?

Ordinary_Guy · Sep 17, 2006

Kevin Yarbrough said:
...What other story can you read where Moses and Atlantis are connected? Osiris and the disapperance of the Mayans?

Sounds interesting... but it does sound vaguely familiar. Perhaps not so much with Judeo-Christian sprinklings, but definitely with cross-mythos bits.

Still, adding the Judeo-Christian spin should bring some eyeballs as folk want to see the matchup.

Shweta · Sep 17, 2006

Kevin Yarbrough said:
What other story can you read where Moses and Atlantis are connected? Osiris and the disapperance of the Mayans?

Oh, I am so hooked.
When will it be done?

Ordinary_Guy · Sep 17, 2006

Shweta said:
...More on this when I have a brain.

'
Take your time -- this is a humungous topic and it'll probably be around for a while. For the same reason, I'm taking my time to answer.

Personally, I divide the heck out of supernatural phenomena, categorizing based on factors like effect vs. predicted origin.

I could say I believe in "astronomy" - but talking about it really needs to divide the field into rational subdivisions like astrophysics, cosmology, radio astronomy, etc.

As for believing in weird shtuff, that's one of the reasons I picked "astronomy" as my example... I think of a Niels Bohr quote: "If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet."

I have some ideas I'll share on the nature of the phenomena when I have a little more time. 70% critical skepticism, 20% of science catching up to the unknown (like animals predicting earthquakes) and 10% exploration of some potentially real, wild@ss stuff...

ChaosTitan · Sep 17, 2006

Ordinary_Guy said:
Sounds interesting... but it does sound vaguely familiar. Perhaps not so much with Judeo-Christian sprinklings, but definitely with cross-mythos bits.

Ever seen Stargate: SG-1? Talk about cross-mythos.

Ordinary_Guy · Sep 18, 2006

The belief in magic...

Okay, magic...

For those serious about "the art", don't take this personally... but the general public's belief in it is, at best, leading to massive misunderstandings. Astonishing that even in modern times, in an incident that echoes the Salem Witch Trials, the belief is prevalent enough in the supernatural that we witness travesties like this:

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - The leaders of a village in the Indian state of Rajasthan ordered 150 men to dip their hands into boiling oil to prove their innocence after food was stolen from a local school, a newspaper reported on Sunday.

In late August the school's principal informed police that rice and wheat had disappeared but no action was taken, the Sunday Express said.

The council, or panchayat, of Ranpur village, 340 km south of state capital Jaipur, then decided to take the law into its own hands.

After 10 days spent trying to identify those responsible, it issued what the paper called the "mediaeval diktat".

The 150 men from Ranpur and two neighbouring hamlets were told to pick a copper ring from a cauldron of boiling oil. The council elders then announced that the 50 who refused the order must be behind the crime. Many are now nursing their burns.

"We would have been ostracised had we refused. Out of fear all of us agreed. This is not the first time this has been done," said one 45-year-old man. He has now testified against the elders, who have been arrested.

The elders' actions seem ~~absolutely ridiculous~~ criminally ignorant to me... but if magic does indeed exist, were those tribal elders right to have done what they did...? By the same token, are the conservative complaints against Harry Potter valid?

Thoughts...?

Shweta · Sep 19, 2006

No, even allowing the existence of magic, the tribal elders were criminally wrong.

Cause even if magic exists, it doesn't work like that. If the elders thought it did, they should have dipped their own hands in first; and if they'd believed in what they were doing, I think they would have.

This is a power trip playing off of local superstition and nasty pressure towards social conformity. India is, unfortunately, full of this kind of disgusting nonsense.

I'm glad they were arrested, and I hope they are convicted of mass torture. :rant:

Diana Hignutt · Sep 19, 2006

There is a difference between the existence of magic and superstition. If magic is, indeed, possible, then it is only so by the transcending ordinary consciousness to the level of very difficult to reach mental states, and causing some manipulation of reality from that point. The example you gave, O.G., is certainly an excellent one of superstition, but does not come near magic. There is absolutely a difference. And, even if the superstition in your example had definitively worked, it would offer no evidence as to whether the conservative-Harry-Potter bashers are right or not. Even proof of some superstitions would not validate all superstitions. Gotta dash...

Shweta · Sep 19, 2006

The example you gave, O.G., is certainly an excellent one of superstition, but does not come near magic.

I guess it could be a belief in miracle.
But that's making a lot of assumptions about what the gods would do, so... yeah, superstition.

And... I doubt the conservative harry-potter-bashers have read the books. They are so clearly not about "witchcraft". :rant:

Shadow_Ferret · Sep 19, 2006

Shweta said:
And... I doubt the conservative harry-potter-bashers have read the books. They are so clearly not about "witchcraft".

They aren't? Spells. Flying brooms. Wands. A 3-headed hellhound. It's some sort of magic, isn't it? Or did I miss something when I read the first book?

Shweta · Sep 19, 2006

Shadow_Ferret said:
They aren't? Spells. Flying brooms. Wands. A 3-headed hellhound. It's some sort of magic, isn't it? Or did I miss something when I read the first book?

Calling up demons and sleeping with them? Worshipping Satan?

Harry Potter is about the kiddie-version of witchcraft, which has some of the superficial trimmings, but beyond that, about as much relation to what the bible's bashing as Tinkerbell has to Titania.

Narnia is closer to the historical notion of witchcraft. And the same conservative christians forgot to protest Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy -- in which God's the bad guy, pretty much.

Shadow_Ferret · Sep 19, 2006

Shweta said:
Calling up demons and sleeping with them? Worshipping Satan?

Harry Potter is about the kiddie-version of witchcraft, which has some of the superficial trimmings, but beyond that, about as much relation to what the bible's bashing as Tinkerbell has to Titania.

I'm confused. Are you telling me that real witchcraft is about calling up demons and sleeping with them?

Or that the Christians equate witchcraft to that?

And kiddie version or not, the stuff they do in Harry Potter, JK Rowling still portrayed that as "witchcraft," no?

Jack_Roberts · Sep 19, 2006

What other story can you read where Moses and Atlantis are connected? Osiris and the disapperance of the Mayans?[/quote said:
That sounds like fun! Good luck with that becuase I want to read it!

Higgins · Sep 19, 2006

Bad guy schmad guy

Shweta said:
Calling up demons and sleeping with them? Worshipping Satan?

Harry Potter is about the kiddie-version of witchcraft, which has some of the superficial trimmings, but beyond that, about as much relation to what the bible's bashing as Tinkerbell has to Titania.

Narnia is closer to the historical notion of witchcraft. And the same conservative christians forgot to protest Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy -- in which God's the bad guy, pretty much.

It doesn't matter if God is bad or Good, he's God and if he says he's bad he's good and if he says he's good he's bad. His Logic is not Our Logic. Pullman doesn't seem to understand that, but of course conservative Christians do so Pullman is Okay with them.

Ordinary_Guy · Sep 19, 2006

Save souls! ...Redeem for valuable prizes.

Shadow_Ferret said:
I'm confused. Are you telling me that real witchcraft is about calling up demons and sleeping with them?

Or that the Christians equate witchcraft to that?

And kiddie version or not, the stuff they do in Harry Potter, JK Rowling still portrayed that as "witchcraft," no?

Herein lies an interesting distinction -- and one that begs for some definitive separation: where does "witchcraft" stop and "the occult" begin? Is "witchcraft" interchangable with "magic"?

Let's look at some of the players in the field:

You've got a certain Harry Potter-esque view of magic that it's this mystic energy that's independent of other factors (where wands operate on a principle similar to the way a compass tapping the natural geomagnetic field).
You've got the classic Christian view of magic that involves drawing power from demons of various shades (including succubi and incubi). This is seems to be a convenient junk drawers of bad behaviors that have post-hoc connections conjured up by early Christianity and by definition, requires a belief in God (can't have the devil unless you've got God, right?).
You've got Wiccan beliefs that have roots that predate Christianity. This is actually closer to the Harry Potter magic than the Christian magic, if only in the attempt to access some sort of naturally-occuring energy source.

This is exactly why I started this thread. We need to define the field and put some labels on the concepts, else risk confusion, misunderstanding and bad reactions.

Higgins · Sep 19, 2006

Personal Power

Ordinary_Guy said:
Herein lies an interesting distinction -- and one that begs for some definitive separation: where does "witchcraft" stop and "the occult" begin? Is "witchcraft" interchangable with "magic"?

Let's look at some of the players in the field:

You've got a certain Harry Potter-esque view of magic that it's this mystic energy that's independent of other factors (where wands operate on a principle similar to the way a compass tapping the natural geomagnetic field).

You've got the classic Christian view of magic that involves drawing power from demons of various shades (including succubi and incubi). This is seems to be a convenient junk drawers of bad behaviors that have post-hoc connections conjured up by early Christianity and by definition, requires a belief in God (can't have the devil unless you've got God, right?).

You've got Wiccan beliefs that have roots that predate Christianity. This is actually closer to the Harry Potter magic than the Christian magic, if only in the attempt to access some sort of naturally-occuring energy source.

This is exactly why I started this thread. We need to define the field and put some labels on the concepts, else risk confusion, misunderstanding and bad reactions.

Potter and the Wiccan views can probably be put under the general heading of Personal Power, where a trained Adept (Shaman etc.) knows by various disciplines and by internal virtues how to accomphish certain things. This was sort of the theory of Magic that influenced the Development of Science as science moved out of its earlier institutional base in the Church to drum up support on its own (partly magical, at least rhetorically) merits.

Akiahara · Sep 19, 2006

I really, really hate that generalization. Wicca is based in pre-Christian faith, yes, but it was not Wicca at that point. And many other earth based faiths under the pagan umbrella will get really pissed if you call them Wiccan. It's like the Protestants and Catholics.

I'm curious as to how Wiccan views fall under "personal power". I guess in an odd way, maybe... but if you're relating magic to personal power, in the Wiccan sense, that doesn't seem right. Magic is nature's energy... all you're doing is directing it. Not like Potter where you either are or you aren't. And if you have a spell for telekinesis, please, share!

Harry Potter is a young adult, media version of witchcraft. What everyone wants witchcraft to be. Personally, if you're going to write about real witchcraft (not the flying on brooms and magic wands that shoot shiny things), you need to do your research. I'm not talking to anyone in particular here, just in general. If you screw up a part of theology in your book that happens to be about Wiccans, or you associate them with satan worshippers, the readers in that specific community are going to be really pissed.

Ordinary_Guy · Sep 19, 2006

interesting.

Akiahara said:
I really, really hate that generalization. Wicca is based in pre-Christian faith, yes, but it was not Wicca at that point. And many other earth based faiths under the pagan umbrella will get really pissed if you call them Wiccan. It's like the Protestants and Catholics.

That's some strong emotion.

FBoW, though, the world revolves using generalizations. If the Wicca category is inaccurate, how would you categorize those religions in one word?

Note that this isn't optional. Like it or not, outsiders talk about sacred subjects. If an insider can't define the vocabulary, the outsiders will... and they will neither know nor care about the inaccuracy of their preconceptions.

So how would you put a conversational handle on the subjects?

Akiahara said:
I'm curious as to how Wiccan views fall under "personal power". I guess in an odd way, maybe... but if you're relating magic to personal power, in the Wiccan sense, that doesn't seem right. Magic is nature's energy... all you're doing is directing it. Not like Potter where you either are or you aren't. And if you have a spell for telekinesis, please, share!

No doubt. I've got my notepad out.

Thought: "psionics" is a great SF staple and it would seem that telekinesis would fall under that umbrella rather than magic. Is there some overlap? Different words or approaches for the same thing? Is it wholly unrelated? Is there, from the inside of the magically-oriented community, considered to be no real-world legitimacy to the concept of psionics?

Akiahara said:
Harry Potter is a young adult, media version of witchcraft. What everyone wants witchcraft to be. Personally, if you're going to write about real witchcraft (not the flying on brooms and magic wands that shoot shiny things), you need to do your research. I'm not talking to anyone in particular here, just in general. If you screw up a part of theology in your book that happens to be about Wiccans, or you associate them with satan worshippers, the readers in that specific community are going to be really pissed.

...Just like Christians and Jews and Muslims and Scientologists and everybody else on the planet. Tough luck there.

So... what's your adult version of witchcraft?

RJLeahy · Sep 19, 2006

~When you believe in things
That you don't understand
Then you suffer.
Superstition ain't the way~

--Stevie Wonder--

Higgins · Sep 19, 2006

Adepts

Akiahara said:
I really, really hate that generalization. Wicca is based in pre-Christian faith, yes, but it was not Wicca at that point. And many other earth based faiths under the pagan umbrella will get really pissed if you call them Wiccan. It's like the Protestants and Catholics.

I'm curious as to how Wiccan views fall under "personal power". I guess in an odd way, maybe... but if you're relating magic to personal power, in the Wiccan sense, that doesn't seem right. Magic is nature's energy... all you're doing is directing it. Not like Potter where you either are or you aren't. And if you have a spell for telekinesis, please, share!

Harry Potter is a young adult, media version of witchcraft. What everyone wants witchcraft to be. Personally, if you're going to write about real witchcraft (not the flying on brooms and magic wands that shoot shiny things), you need to do your research. I'm not talking to anyone in particular here, just in general. If you screw up a part of theology in your book that happens to be about Wiccans, or you associate them with satan worshippers, the readers in that specific community are going to be really pissed.

For many forms of Magic and Religion and even early Science, there is the notion of the Adept. My most precise knowledge of this is in the area of American Indians who acquire what is generally termed "personal power" by such means as fasting, drugs, visions and dreams, though they also use a lot of rare and strange items for their equipment and their spirit journeys. I'm pretty sure Ursula LeGuin was thinking of this type of power in working on the Earth Sea Trilogy. One aspect of this power is that a person can be trained to achieve it, though some personal committment to undergo intense and odd experiences is necessary. Another aspect is that, if misused it can be very dangerous. Another aspect of personal power of this kind is that some of it can be considered in some way "natural knowledge" acquired by observation and thinking and experimenting.

Shweta · Sep 19, 2006

Shadow_Ferret said:
I'm confused. Are you telling me that real witchcraft is about calling up demons and sleeping with them?

Or that the Christians equate witchcraft to that?

I"m saying that historically, this is what the Christians accused the "witches" of in times of real witch-bashing. This is what they considered inherently evil about them, as I understand it.

None of is it real Wicca, obviously; but then, the word "witch" was translated as such through, what? Latin, through Greek, through Aramaic?

If I write an essay claiming that storytelling is witchcraft because it enchants a reader, does that give the conservative christians a reason to protest all writing? It's just utterly silly to protest and want to ban something just because of a word.

Say what else you might about them, Harry Potter books are about friendship, honor, and protecting people from evil.

And kiddie version or not, the stuff they do in Harry Potter, JK Rowling still portrayed that as "witchcraft," no?

She calls it magic, I believe. She just called the female wizards "witches".
Which is a really shaky pretext to attack her on, even if you do think witchcraft is bad.

Anyway, this isn't really worth arguing about

Shweta · Sep 19, 2006

Sokal said:
I'm pretty sure Ursula LeGuin was thinking of this type of power in working on the Earth Sea Trilogy. One aspect of this power is that a person can be trained to achieve it, though some personal committment to undergo intense and odd experiences is necessary. Another aspect is that, if misused it can be very dangerous. Another aspect of personal power of this kind is that some of it can be considered in some way "natural knowledge" acquired by observation and thinking and experimenting.

I'm not entirely sure of this one, Sokal. Yes, LeGuin has a lot of grounding in (I believe) the Californian Indian traditions; but magic in Earthsea was about naming. Learning all the true names, and thus commanding things. Wasn't it?

That's a very different approach from shamanic practices worldwide, which she does clearly know about...

Higgins · Sep 19, 2006

Naming (Discipline) and power

Shweta said:
I'm not entirely sure of this one, Sokal. Yes, LeGuin has a lot of grounding in (I believe) the Californian Indian traditions; but magic in Earthsea was about naming. Learning all the true names, and thus commanding things. Wasn't it?

That's a very different approach from shamanic practices worldwide, which she does clearly know about...

The mechanism/metaphysics of the power was naming, but the plot (especially the double of the MC and the journey to the land of the dead) was very shamanistic. There is a school of adepts and "technically" their power derives from naming, but what actually happens in the stories is pretty typical shamanistic journeys and the acquisition of power.

If we look at Adepts in general, the metaphysics behind their power is very diverse, but the basic idea of a person who undergoes ordeals to acquire and use power is what suggests that the Adept is an idea that clarifies what is going on in terms of describing the operations of magic, science and religion.

Phenomenology

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