POV question

[Neeli]

The rule says change "heads" only at chapter breaks or scene breaks.

But in my novel I have a long argument between two characters in which I want to change POV occaisionally to add depth the reader wouldn't otherwise see: the 2nd character's unshared reasoning and perception of 1st character; information the 2nd character knows, but the 1st character does not. There are three times in 26 pages (a looong scene) in which I show the 2nd characte'rs POV. I have used adequate clues to signal the changes ("Adam's head throbbed where Eve had decked him."), and a double space between them for added emphasis.

How long should each section be in one POV before you can change? Is double-spacing between them necessary?

Any suggestions? rules of thumb? How do you do it?

(BTW I noticed Frank Herbert changing from Duke Leto to Paul etc. from one paragraph to the next in DUNE.)

[jbal]

This is head hopping, and generally not a good idea. Perhaps some of this information could be brought up in the next scene with one character or the other. All I can say is I would try to avoid it, but I'll let some more experienced folks weigh in.

[ORION]

I know this will make me unpopular but when I read Larry mcMurtry (lonesome dove etc.) I just HATE the POV changes. Reading his books you are in EVERYBODY'S head and there is nothing to wonder about.
It also makes it difficult for the reader to decide who to care about. There are lots of other (more clever) ways to give out imformation...When a writer is tempted to change POV often I feel they are relying on Tell not Show.
As far as letting the reader know what one character has done that the other doesn't know about...Gosh let the reader figure something out...they are smarter than you may think...
And yes published authors get away with a lot...that does not mean it is effective...
See if you can do what you need to do in another way...overheard converstations/dropped messages or letters on a desk...two people seen together who shouldn't be...etc.
Just a thought,

[Oddsocks]

If one character is dominant in this scene (i.e. their POV used most of the time), I would suggest sticking with that character, and maybe having some introspection by the second character in a scene afterwards (or a conversation they have with someone in which they can go over what they felt/know/etc) - something like that.

Alternatively, you could use body language or similar the first character could pick up on - she might not know what they mean, but (assuming the reader already knows what the second character knows) the reader can.

These are just suggestions - I don't know enough about head hopping to know if what you have is a problem.

[JanDarby]

Avoid headhopping whenever possible. And the thing is, it's almost always possible, and the resulting scene is better for it.

I hear it all the time -- the reader needs to know what the other person is thinking. No, she doesn't. Or, to the extent she does, it can be done through body language, showing instead of telling.

A bad example, but just to give you an idea: the non-pov person is thinking he really does NOT like ferris wheels, which is what the POV character is asking him to go on, so he shakes his head without necessarily realizing it, even as he says "okay," because he's got a crush on her. The reader can figure out that he's reluctant and probably why he agreed anyway. Later on, when you're in his POV, you can always have him think something like "I really hate ferris wheels, and I would have said no to anyone else." Okay, pretty lame example, but you get the idea.

Part of the problem for us, as the writers, is that WE need to know what both sides of the conversation are thinking, so we can figure out what each one would say in the circumstances. That doesn't mean the reader needs to know it, though, or needs to know it as the conversation is happening. In fact, the scene is likely to be more interesting if the reader DOESN'T know exactly what the non-pov person is thinking, so the reader is in the same shape as the POV character, who has to make judgments about how to deal with the non-pov character, and maybe the pov character is right, and maybe not, but at least the reader is following along just fine, and either agreeing or thinking, "hmm, something about his body language is hinting that the non-pov person is not a happy camper."

Leave a little mystery. Even in books that aren't technically mysteries!

JD

[Bayou Bill]

The rule says change "heads" only at chapter breaks or scene breaks.

Any suggestions? rules of thumb? How do you do it?

(BTW I noticed Frank Herbert changing from Duke Leto to Paul etc. from one paragraph to the next in DUNE.)
Neeli, IMHO, there is no hard and fast, unbreakable rule for writing successful commercial fiction except: Don't bore the reader. The problem with "head-hopping" is that unless very well done, it can confuse readers and those folks tend to become bored, quickly.

POV is a headache for just about every writer. Limited third person or first person are often suggested for new writers since they make it relatively easy to avoid confusing head-hopping.

I write in limited third person and use scene/time shift markers, such as ### or *** to indicate a POV shift in the middle of a chapter.

Good luck.

Bayou Bill :cool:

[herdon]

Bayou is right: there are no hard and fast rules. Though third person limited omniscience is popular to the point of almost being a standard when not writing first person, there are writers who use third person omniscience for the point of view.

I would definately advice writing it in a limited omniscience. This can create stronger writing and a more powerful scene. If that doesn't work I would advice breaking it into two scenes which can also be used to great effect. Using third person omniscience would be my last choice. It is usually best used at a greater distance from your character and thus there is less of a connection between reader and character (if you get too close you run the danger of confusing the reader).

But, in the end, there are no hard and fast rules and there are writers who effectively use this style.

[Becky Writes]

the 2nd character's unshared reasoning and perception of 1st character; information the 2nd character knows, but the 1st character does not.



Have you been switching POVs to this point? If not, then don't do it for this scene.

[Prawn]

In defense of Larry McMurtry, I like how he headhops. I couldn't do it well enough and wouldn't try, but I feel it works for him.

I have had luck with have a scene from one person's perpective and putting in his or her impressions of the other person:

"You just don't understand me." Sara said.
Alan could see Sara was really getting angry. "Calm down, Sara. You know I love you."

This let's you put in some of the other character's feelings without breaking POV.

[NeuroFizz]

Here's a good challenge. Try to convey the thoughts of the secondary character through his/her actions and reactions to what is happening, while staying in the primary POV character's head. The POV character could notice a few of these actions and reactions, and you could flesh out some of the feelings through dialogue, or he/she could guess about the other person's feelings based on observed actions and reactions.

Do you need to spell everything out for the reader? Can you give hints and trust the reader to fill in the blanks? Can you give just enough information to lead the reader in the intended direction? Can you bring out this other character's views in a later chapter or scene?

I'll go along with others--head-hopping makes me want to throw a book across the room. It doesn't bother my wife (a reader not a writer) at all. However, at this point, shouldn't you be thinking about what agents and editors will think about this? Good writing habits need to be reinforced from day one, no matter what published authors do. There are reasons why they can get away with things like this.

Why not try to be the best writer you can, from a technical standpoint? Anytime a problem like this surfaces, it has the potential of strengthening your writing if you can find a way to convey the exact information you originally wanted to, but without the head-hopping.

On the other hand, there are no rules to writing, just contemporary conventions. You can do what works, including head-hopping, as long as you realize the potential risks.

[Prawn]

Here's a good challenge. Try to convey the thoughts of the secondary character through his/her actions and reactions to what is happening, while staying in the primary POV character's head. The POV character could notice a few of these actions and reactions, and you could flesh out some of the feelings through dialogue, or he/she could guess about the other person's feelings based on observed actions and reactions.

I think we just aid the same thing at the same time.

Jinx!

[Aubrey]

Agreeing with most of the posts here. Let us know how the second person feels through hints. There's body language, implied feelings through speech ("Well...if you really need me to...") or maybe some object he's carrying or something he's looking at that's very telling. Most readers are pretty obvervent, they'll probably pick up at least something about his feelings without you needing to say "Pete wasnt sure he liked that idea".

[RJLeahy]

If everyone else's advise wan't enough, I'll add one more incentive to avoid head-hopping: agents hate it. If you are a new author, it jumps out to them that you haven't mastered the art of the novel, Larry McMurtry notwithstanding. It's something you'll hear time and again-- just because a well-published author can get away with something, doesn't mean you can.