Lizzy Borden?

Rhush · Sep 8, 2006

Hey guys. Long time no post. Anyway, I was thinking it would be awesome if I could write a suspence thriller/horror novel based on the concept of Lizzy Borden. Kind of along the same lines as An American Haunting. Kind of take the basic facts and paint it with a supernatural or demonic brush. But, since she was an actual person, who probably has some "down the line" family out there, I didnt know what the rules would be. I mean, are there any legal ramifications or such? That may sound dumb, but Ive never written a fictional story based on a true person (and loosley their truelife events) before. Thanks.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 8, 2006

I served in the Navy with a Borden who came from the Fall River Bordens. (He was of the opinion that the maid was the real murderer.)

The descendents don't have anything to say about how you portray Lizzie. You can't libel the dead. There are hundreds of depictions of Lizzie as a murderer in art, books, plays, and films.

If you're seriously that worried, pay a lawyer and listen to the advice you get. (I'm not a lawyer.)

triceretops · Sep 8, 2006

Interesting premise, Becky. Just tap the keys on that one. I don't think you can get into trouble with speculation. The Ripper sure has had his fair share of it.

Tri

Popeyesays · Sep 8, 2006

When Desilu started The Untouchables there was a court case brought by Mae Capone claiming libel and slander against her husband. It was dismissed with prejudice fairly quickly.

Mae was very reclusive, there are only three known public photographs of her. She and Sonny (Capone's only child) declared that the show would be harrassment against them.

Regards,
Scott

JDCrayne · Sep 8, 2006

Considering the number of "factual" books about Lizzie Borden, I think that writing a fictional account is pretty safe. She didn't have any children and I don't think that her sister did either, so if you want either of them possessed by demons, go for it. A Google search on just her name comes up with nearly half a million hits. There is safety in numbers.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 8, 2006

Borden

There's no reason at all not to write about Lizzie Borden, but it would be nice if a writer or two remembered that she was found not guilty, and that there never really was any serious evidence at all pointing at her.

It just makes a better story for many if her guilt is assumed.

Birol · Sep 8, 2006

Rhush, I think it sounds like a great kernel for a horror story.

brainstorm77 · Sep 9, 2006

I read a fictional novel about five years ago in which the writer actually made Lizzie Borden the main character and turned her into a lesbian.

Anthony Ravenscroft · Sep 9, 2006

Rhush, it's an evergreen idea that's a bit long in the tooth. Hundreds (if not thousands) of stories have used that -- I think it's mouldier than "who was Jack the Ripper?" or "what if Jekyll/Hyde involved a gender-change?"

Oh, it's not that you couldn't carry it off well. The problem is that, unless you've got some truly new & refreshing take on it, the widespread reaction is going to be "So what? Already seen it a dozen time."

Will you get sued? Doubtful -- in fact, you should be so fortunate, because at least it might stir up some publicity.

And, yeah, it's been suggested by a few writers I respect that Lizzie's father was messing around with the maid (something barely shy of rape), & Mom looked the other way because then he'd leave her alone from those "beastly chores." Lizzie was clueless, so the maid waited until the girl was outside. But it's also possible that Dad molested her, so she wasn't all that sorry to see the SOB chopped to bloody ribbons, so her defense wasn't particularly convincing.

Now, if you could combine such a ground with something like Greg Bear's "The White Horse Child," you might be onto something....

Rhush · Sep 10, 2006

Thanks everyone! Great advice. And I knew she was found not guilty, which I thought made for a much better ending. Ya know, the scary possessed chick just roamed around doing who knows what kinda scary after the fact. I know we know. She became a recluse, but Id paint it a little more sinister / satanically fun than that. Thanks again everyone.

Popeyesays · Sep 10, 2006

Rhush said:
Thanks everyone! Great advice. And I knew she was found not guilty, which I thought made for a much better ending. Ya know, the scary possessed chick just roamed around doing who knows what kinda scary after the fact. I know we know. She became a recluse, but Id paint it a little more sinister / satanically fun than that. Thanks again everyone.

Actually she and her sister travelled Europe quite extensively, who knows whom she might have offed on the continent. She might have boosted sles of hatchets in several countries.

"Lizzy Borden took an ax
and gave her father forty whacks.
Whe she saw what she had done
She gave her mother forty-one."

JDCrayne · Sep 10, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
There's no reason at all not to write about Lizzie Borden, but it would be nice if a writer or two remembered that she was found not guilty, and that there never really was any serious evidence at all pointing at her.

It just makes a better story for many if her guilt is assumed.

Uh-huh. And what about the dress she burned because it supposedly had menstrual blood on it? If women burned everything that got soiled in that way, they wouldn't have any clothes left.

Birol · Sep 10, 2006

I thought she had claimed it was supposed to be paint-splattered?

triceretops · Sep 10, 2006

It was paint, she said.

Tri

soloset · Sep 10, 2006

The Cases That Haunt Us has some good information on the case, with some interesting psychological insights and a really nice, blow by blow crime scene breakdown.

Oh, and according to that book, it was "probably paint" according to witnesses, and that, at the trial, the Borden sisters claimed it was a family custom to burn clothes that were irredeemably soiled. This was at odds with the father's reputed frugality.

The blood was found in a bucket in the basement and explained away as menstrual cloths left to soak. The men, being proper and squeamish, were happy to leave it at that.

Anyway, the whole book's a fascinating read (it also has chapters on Jack the Ripper and Jon-Benet) and gives insight into how someone might have committed the crime without getting much in the way of blood on their clothes in the first place.

Craig Shaeffer · Sep 11, 2006

Travis Coble

Here's a short story inspired by Lizzy Borden:

http://www.fromtheasylum.com/january2005/travis.htm

Rabe · Sep 11, 2006

brainstorm77 said:
I read a fictional novel about five years ago in which the writer actually made Lizzie Borden the main character and turned her into a lesbian.

I remember the movie of Lizzie Borden starring the beautiful Elizabeth Montgomery.

THIS does not help for now I think of the lesbian porn version of the movie starring the beautiful and ample Elizabeth Montgammeries!

Rabe...

Jamesaritchie · Sep 11, 2006

soloset said:
The Cases That Haunt Us has some good information on the case, with some interesting psychological insights and a really nice, blow by blow crime scene breakdown.

Oh, and according to that book, it was "probably paint" according to witnesses, and that, at the trial, the Borden sisters claimed it was a family custom to burn clothes that were irredeemably soiled. This was at odds with the father's reputed frugality.

The blood was found in a bucket in the basement and explained away as menstrual cloths left to soak. The men, being proper and squeamish, were happy to leave it at that.

Anyway, the whole book's a fascinating read (it also has chapters on Jack the Ripper and Jon-Benet) and gives insight into how someone might have committed the crime without getting much in the way of blood on their clothes in the first place.

Don't believe everything in that book. A good bit of it has been called bunk by other experts and historians. Especially the Lizzie Borden and Jack the Ripper sections.

soloset · Sep 11, 2006

That's actually the only book I own about historical cases (I tend to avoid Jack the Ripper in particular, ever since I stumbled across the photos of the last victim on the web). I picked it up on the strength of the author, mostly.

It's too bad if it's not accurate. The interpretations in the book are very neat, but if the facts aren't correct, they're not worth much. I think I'm going back to getting my info from Wikipedia.

JDCrayne · Sep 11, 2006

Birol said:
I thought she had claimed it was supposed to be paint-splattered?

I'll check the reference book on the Borden killings that I have, but I
think it said blood. I could easily be wrong.

Anthony Ravenscroft · Sep 11, 2006

Facts vs. storytelling

It could be Thousand Island salad dressing. Or a sudden problem with exploding sparrows.

What's important is whether the writer can carry off a work of fiction into which the reader can be immersed. If not, then facts are inconsequential.

JDCrayne · Sep 12, 2006

I find that I confused two garments. Referring to "Lizzie Borden: The Legend, the Truth, the Final Chapter" by Arnold R. Brown, "The stains on the dress were said to be brown paint spots." The skirt that Lizzie turned over to the authorities had some small blood spots, which she claimed were from flea bites. (There is no discussion in the book as to where Lizzie got into any brown paint; I guess no one ever asked her.) This book, incidentally, is a defence of Lizzie Borden, and claims that her father was killed by a man never considered before. I bought it because I thought I ought to have at least one book on the case, in the same way that I bought a book on Jack the Ripper. I finished reading it with the impression that Lizzie was guilty as sin.

In any event, I think that writing a book with Lizzie possessed by a demon would be perfectly safe!

jdkiggins · Sep 12, 2006

Hey, Rhush, sounds like a great story. I'd pay to read it. Hurry up and get it written and published.

Rhush · Sep 14, 2006

Thanks everyone. Love all the debate going on! Maybe I should make it more of a mystery thriller! Ha. Oh and hey JDK!!! LOng time no talk. Thanks!

Lizzy Borden?

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