Should poets wanting feedback use the Poetry Critique board?

[poetinahat]

All, there's a lively discussion going on about whether people should anticipate receiving critiques on their poems in the general Poetry Forum.

Different people have different views and expectations.

To make sure we all have the same understanding, let's vote.

Wherever you post, feedback will be welcome. But it's important that poets and critics know each other's expectations.

Thanks!

[Perks]

Is one side of the argument that it should be put up on the forum to be looked and ruminated over without commentary? That'd look weird. 'Ooos' and 'Ahhhs' acceptable, but 'ehs' aren't?

The only way I could see that working is for you, Mr. Moderator, to lock each poem in its own thread as their posted. Otherwise, it seems unenforcable.

Now I'm gonna have to go find that lively discussion.

ETA - Sorry, I had to vote 'other'. I've thought of the 'Poetry Critique' board as a place force WIP, for those who like that sort of input en route, and a place to preview works earmarked for submission. So says me, for what it's worth. ;)

[poetinahat]

What I said was

Wherever you post, feedback will be welcome.

The difference would be in where feedback is expected.

There have been several people recently mentioning the dearth of crit activity in the main board recently. That says to me that some people expect crits no matter where they post.

But, as has become clear in Critiques: What do you want from them? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40336), not everybody shares that understanding.

Whatever the Forum decides, I'll support.

[Pat~]

I put "Other." My feeling is that wherever you post a poem, you're welcoming feedback, whether in the Poetry Forum, or the Critique thread. But the Critique thread is where I post poems that I'm submitting for publication.

[poetinahat]

Oh, no! That's what I meant by option #2!

That's two voters out of two who found it unclear!

This poll is a failure. I'll rewrite and rehang.

[Pat~]

LOL, sorry Rob! Guess I misunderstood you.
Let me try again...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif Should poets wanting feedback use the Poetry Critique board? Yes, but I was under the impression that this was particularly for those poems one might also want to consider for publication.

And, I think whether posted in the Crit board or the Poetry Forum, one should welcome feedback. (If no feedback is desired, then why post?) So that if you specifically don't want feedback, you ought to mention that with the post.

[Rivana]

I'm confused. Is this poll just about the critique forum? The critique forum is where you put stuff that you specifically want critiqued, is it not? This top forum was supposed to be more general wasn't it?

Well anyway.

Here's my two cents:

The top forum (eg. this one) is for discussion and posting alike. People who post their work here should not expect con crit (unless they ask), but neither should they expect not to get it (unless they ask). Basically, people can give a pat on the back, be constructive, ask questions, start a discussion about the poem etc, or just move on. -All without anyone being offended.

On the other hand, people who feel that anything but con crit is a waste of time or wish to have an extensive amount of help with their piece probably should not post their work in the general forum, but rather in the one for pure critique (the lower, password protected one).

Thus we should all be happy.

[Unique]

Excuse me if I'm confused but doesn't Poetry Critique Board imply that someone wants to be critiqued?

Yes, Poetry Game is in there, too, but there isn't a place to critique in the game because it will mess up the queue. I like Poetry Game being in the closed forum because that's where I usually hang out and someday I might want to use one of those for something.

If I wanted to be critiqued, I'd go to the Critique board. But maybe I'm just confused.

::::move along now, nothing here to see, just another looney mangalating her English:::

[Perks]

This poll is a failure. I'll rewrite and rehang.Your head in shame? Lol! Not to worry.

I think the system as is works pretty well. Any overhaul is going to be awfully confusing. Hopefully this poll and the discussion will remind people to indicate if they are rabid for feedback, afraid of it or indifferent to it.

Otherwise, all's fair in love and poetry.

[poetinahat]

Okay. I can see already that there IS confusion about what the Critique board is for. So, even if the poll's written poorly, it's timely!

Pat and I thought Poetry Critique was meant for WIP -- to protect publishing rights by hiding work from the internet.

KTC, Rivana and Unique thought it was for ANYTHING where critique was wanted.

That's exactly the confusion I thought was there.

I'll reword the poll and ask you to revote.

[Unique]

I guess my confusion comes from thinking, 'Why would anyone want something critiqued if they weren't planning on submitting it?'

I mean I wouldn't, but maybe other people would.:Shrug:

'Yes, it's nice; no it's not nice' but why if it's just going back in the drawer?

[poetinahat]

Some possible reasons:

- Because you just want to get better at writing poetry, whether or not you ever plan to submit it

- Because you're writing something for another purpose (gift, self-pub, public presentation)

- Insight into what people pick up as critics

[JRH]

Hi Poet

The true crux of the matter is not the criticism received in either place but that the main forum may be considered by magazine publishers like "Poetry Magazine" as qualifying anything posted there as previously published, whereas the Critique area is password protected and is thus considered by "Poetry", and others, as simply being a "Workshop", and not independent publication.

It's a silly way of looking at things but it is a concept that seems to be spreading to more and more Magazine Publishers that demand 1st Publication Rights.

To be honest, the Poems I have posted in the Critique section were posted there for that reason, because they are "new" and I wanted to keep my options open for publication.

Beyond that, I, for one, have no objections to constructive comments, regardless of where I post them, because I weigh them according to my own goals and what I know of the background of the person posting the Critique, and I see no reason why anyone should have a problem with any well intended Critique in either Forum.

JRH

P.S. Congrats on you new position. You seem to be fitting into it quite naturally.

[Eveningsdawn]

I'm with PB. I always, always want critiques, but if I put it in the Poetry Crits section it's something that I want to submit and really want to work on. Main board, i just want to get better at poetry in general.

[JRH]

Hi Again Poet,

This thread is NOT a failure. It may not have brought the exact results you were looking for but it has triggered an interesting and informative discussion which pretty much has laid out the parameters of the underlying principles and outlined everyone's different views and expectations, far more than a simple poll would have done, and that's not a bad thing.

Keep up the good work.

JRH

[Patricia]

Pat and I thought Poetry Critique was meant for WIP -- to protect publishing rights by hiding work from the internet.



That's what I always thought. I like that concept. To me that along with a general open critique forum and a forum for posting just to share is what most people are looking for--maybe? Since I'm fairly new at posting poetry, perhaps I'm not totally clear either. :)

[P.H.Delarran]

Great poll!
When I first came to this forum I took things literally and thought the critique section was where one would post poems they wanted feedback on and the other main poetry forum just for sharing unless someone asked specifically for feedback. I was hesitant to offer feedback to poems posted there (the reg section). I eventually figured out that wasn't the intention but still hesitated to offer feedback unless asked or if I knew the poet posting consitantly wanted it.
As for the poll, I'm voting for option one (but if there's a tie I can be swayed with chocolate,.. dark please :D.)
I really think if someone wants suggestions (on the main board) they should ask for them rather than expecting them, but also shouldn't get bent if they get them without asking. (did that make sense?) It should be clearly stated that they may get feedback when they post. Perhaps if they just want to share something, they can link to it rather than post it? (just brainstorming)
Sometimes a member will post something they have already published, maybe years ago, and I would asssume that's really just for sharing because it seems a mute point to get crit unless there's something they want to improve on or want a new perspective.(but I've seen people critique these poems too) Then they should ask for just that. Or open it for discussion rather than critique? (there is a difference, yes?) But I can't see someone saying, 'here's my published poem, please don't crit, just pat me on the back.' I guess perhaps they could also just link to their poem if they're just sharing their accomplishment.
New members may not be ready for the kind of critique that can be given here and may not be clear (like I wasn't) about where to post or which poems to comment on. These things just need to be more clearly stated, whatever the contention is.
As for the critique section, I understand the original intention is for publication but some of us may never gather the ummph to get that far, but may still want the critique and the extra password protection offered there.

[poetinahat]

Great discussion.

In a way, I'm amazed that this whole issue hasn't come up before.

Another twisted thought occurred to me yesterday: What if people wanted to use the Poetry Forum to claim that they were "published"? Perversely, it would be true in one respect. If posting on the open Forum means that First Rights no longer apply, then that would have to meant that some houses would consider a poet as Published, even if the only poem she's ever written is posted here.

Here we go. Next project: The Poetry Forum Constitution!

[Godfather]

If I post something in Poetry Critique, I think it needs a lot of work.
But if I post something in the general Poetry board, It's something that I'm more or less satisfied with, but I want peoples opinions on it.

[Patricia]

Ditto what Godfather said.




Another twisted thought occurred to me yesterday: What if people wanted to use the Poetry Forum to claim that they were "published"? Perversely, it would be true in one respect. If posting on the open Forum means that First Rights no longer apply, then that would have to meant that some houses would consider a poet as Published,

I didn't know for a long time that something was considered "published" just by posting something in a forum. Or posting on a web site, and that work couldn't be sold. But, truthfully? I wouldn't consider my work "published" in the sense of using it as a credit. That seems a little ridiculous.

[JennaGlatzer]

Rob, you're right: I did set up the critique sub-board specifically so people would have a better case for saying the works haven't been published. (Just about all publications don't mind if work has been workshopped on a password-protected critique board, but some mind if work is posted on a board that can be found on search engines.) So to me, I was setting up that board for people who plan to submit those works, and leaving the main board for everything else (general discussion, games, poems that aren't meant for publication, etc.).

I've rarely posted poetry, but when I have, normally I do it in the main section because I'm not concerned about publication rights. I don't typically submit my poetry anywhere, but that doesn't mean I don't care about it... I'm interested in feedback normally for my own purposes (so I can improve, so I can get better clarity on a subject, so I can test to see if people understand what I'm trying to convey, etc.). I write poetry sometimes as gifts for people, too, and it has to be good for it to be a good gift! ;)

But back to your point--

I think it might not be a bad idea to put all the poetry for critique onto the crit board, and leave the main board solely for general discussion about poetry, games, markets, contests, etc. I'll stay neutral and go with whatever you guys decide!

[KTC]

I am going to steer clear of this vote as I will not be posting any more poetry here. I will, however, remain an avid poster in the poetry forum. It's my favorite forum here on AW.

[drachin8]

Man, what a discussion!

I have been thinking on some points made last night (and this morning). JennaGlatzer has clarified the intentions of the original Poetry Critique forum, so that helps in some understanding of the evolution of the system.

I have become a bit more attached to the idea of a Poetry Sharing forum being created as a sister to the Poetry Critique forum, and this top level being saved for games, information, discussion, and general poetry topics (like exploration of forms, etc). However, I don't know if it is feasible to shift an entire board posting habits. And I do not think it is feasible to stop critting in a Poetry Sharing forum (not without feeling like a big meanie). But, perhaps with the forums intentions redefined in the subtext, they will evolve to a natural balance.

This will probably be sitting on the back of my mind for a bit more yet, so keep up the great discussion.

:)

-Michelle

[ddgryphon]

I will not be posting any more poetry here.

I can't tell you how sad that makes me. Your poetry, whether it meant anything to you or not, meant a great deal to me, and I was consistently wowed by the wordplay and images you created.

I will miss your poetry. I am grateful I will not have to miss you as well.

[Paint]

I voted for #2 because I thought that's how it worked and it worked well. I ditto Unique's post as a comment. I always post a poem with the thought that it may be published, so I like the password protection.
Interesting to see the growth of new ideas around here. It means we are moving and shaking.
Paint

[Sarita]

Anything I post is fair game for critique. That's generally why I post, something isn't quite right, or I'm just looking for feedback, wondering what I've got going actually works for others and not just me. I've always just used the private board (read: critique) for work that I planned on subbing. The main board is more for my own poetic growth.

One exception for me: I wrote something once for Will. I just posted it because I wanted him to read it. Just call me Truman :)

[KTC]

Poet Rob,

I think you are doing a fabulous job as moderator on this forum. I think every time I try to clarify myself my words are being misconstrued...so it must just be me. I have already stated why I post poetry...because I am creating it. I don't know why I chose to create it within the poetry forum...maybe I felt safe, secure doing so. Maybe I'm a bloody voyeur! Who knows. I just always started my writing with throwing down a poem...doing it here made it public. I didn't think of the circumstances of my doing so. I certainly hope nobody wasted time responding to them. I always tried to thank people for their most generous compliments. (And then I had to puzzle what they saw to compliment...but that's just me. Self-doubt abounds.) Anyway...I think maybe everybody is seeing my decision as maybe argumentative or a stand against you. You are doing a great job...keep up the good work. My impossibility with answering your question...why post? I can't answer. Before AW I did the same thing, just opened a Word file and typed a poem into it before jumping down into my fiction or article writing. Limbering up. Once I found this place I did it publicly. That's the only answer I have. I will revert to doing it in word. Most often I don't even save the file anyway. It's only when I finally reach someplace I'm trying to obtain that I attempt to publish. I've published some that I've created here. I also deleted some I created here.

I didn't mean to imply that I was unhappy with the way you're doing things. I'm not. My response was a solution. I'm staying in this forum...you will have to ban me to get me out...I just won't dump in it any more.

[Stew21]

Kevin, i suggested to rob at 3 AM that we have sticky thread for poetry "dumping" you and i both do it, others do as well. why not put them all in one thread, people won't feel obligated to respond, when someone's on a hot streak, they won't take away "front page" from the folks that are looking for crits. (and selfishly for me and I think others, we will still get to enjoy the beauty that is your poetry.)
Please consider that if we did something like this that we would want your poetry here. We do.

Trish

[KTC]

That sounds like a possibility, Trish. I know one of the concerns was that my posts were putting others off the front page. But, really, I'm just feeling like right now I maybe shouldn't. September/October...always a bad time for me. I am trying to get my point across, that I don't want to cause any problems...but I feel like I am just digging myself deeper. My intention was never to disagree with Rob. He's one of the most stand up guys in the Cooler...he's doing an awesome job here and my comments, though made with honesty, seem to have started something. I just can't seem to say anything properly right now. I guess a sticky might be okay...but not on my account. I will still post in the poetry games, though. They are free and clear of any expected critiques, so I feel no guilt in posting in them.

[Perks]

My intention was never to disagree with Rob. He's one of the most stand up guys in the Cooler...Honestly Kevin, I'm pretty sure none of us think you're nibbling at Rob. That's not the issue. And after four or five public apologies and offers not to post any more poetry, I think anyone would have to be pretty dense not to have gotten your point by now.

[DeniseK]

Kevin, i suggested to rob at 3 AM that we have sticky thread for poetry "dumping" you and i both do it, others do as well. why not put them all in one thread, people won't feel obligated to respond, when someone's on a hot streak, they won't take away "front page" from the folks that are looking for crits. (and selfishly for me and I think others, we will still get to enjoy the beauty that is your poetry.)
Please consider that if we did something like this that we would want your poetry here. We do.

Trish

I think this is an excellent idea. It satisfies the needs of everyone. I fear that if the board is changed to where you only post poetry you want critiqued in the password protected forum, there won't be nearly as many people who offer their input.

[Stew21]

i like the idea of a thread for dumping. I'm guilty of posting without expecting more than, a "hey trish, I read it" I think it is a wonderful way for some folks to just hang out, do their thing, not draw attention to themselves if they don't want it. I"m guilty of posting a bunch of work and bumping poems for crits down too. I don't think you were pointing anything at Rob. I know you guys are all good. I didn't think you were being argumentative. Honestly, I was just being selfish in wanting to still read your amazing poetry. (and I'm not the only one.)
i don't think you are digging yourself deeper, i'm just being persistent because I'm selfish and want you to be here. :)
I want to see you write like your face is on fire, damn it! :)

[P.H.Delarran]

The problem (IMO) with just one 'dump' thread is that leaves no room really for comments at all. Like in the poetry game thread, some poems just jump out and deserve comments. Yes we can make rep point comments or p.m. but there are those that merit public comment, not only for acknowledgment but also I believe we all gain a bit from the comments of others, even if not on our own poems. I may not reply to every poem posted here but I do read them all, and all the comments. It's an enriching experience.
It's too bad we just can't have defined sections here in the poetry forum, where we could post specifically to our intentions...like the main boards do. (and I understand why we don't, I think.)
Stickies can get cluttery. But I do see their purpose and like that they have been added now for discussions etc. It was getting frustrating to try to find a specific thread with the fast-paced posting here. Now that there is some topic segregation, moving around the forum is a much smoother endeavor. And some older but valueable topics have been revived.

[ddgryphon]

i like the idea of a thread for dumping. I'm guilty of posting without expecting more than, a "hey trish, I read it" I think it is a wonderful way for some folks to just hang out, do their thing, not draw attention to themselves if they don't want it. I"m guilty of posting a bunch of work and bumping poems for crits down too. I don't think you were pointing anything at Rob. I know you guys are all good. I didn't think you were being argumentative. Honestly, I was just being selfish in wanting to still read your amazing poetry. (and I'm not the only one.)
i don't think you are digging yourself deeper, i'm just being persistent because I'm selfish and want you to be here. :)
I want to see you write like your face is on fire, damn it! :)

I agree, it is a way cool idea. I like both yours and Kevin's work and feel the forum would be poorer without them. If this can keep things popping for you and those of us who love to read your work, I'm all for it. I don't usually dump, but I could easily have put my trippy little poem in a thread like that.

[Bret]

If you post out in the open, you should always be prepared for the thoughtful comments of someone who took the time to read your poetry (really, how many people will do that?) when they could have have been doing something "constructive" instead.

If you don't want comments on a poem-

keep it in your notebook, or

get it published and it will be in its "too bad I'm already typeset" phase.

If I think something someone has posted in a public forum has problems, I'll say so. I'm not here to be your non judgemental friend. Tho friends are nice, they are even more useful when they say stuff like "your fly is unzipped"

[mkcbunny]

Yes, I'm still alive, LOL. [Just finished the beta-ready draft of Novel: Part I. Lord knows, Part II needs a ton of work. Might finish in 2006, if all goes well. Anyway, that's where I've been, for those who care.]

I always thought that the Critique area was for (a) people who wanted to protect publishing rights or (b) people who expected and wanted thorough criticism. I see the main board as a place to post pretty much anything else. In the latter, feedback might not be expected but durned well might happen. And I don't see the point in posting if you are reluctant to hear what people have to say. But it never seemed to be a requirement to give feedback in the main area.

I've done a lot of reading without commenting -- sometimes because I don't feel qualified to make a worthwhile comment, sometimes because that particular poem is not my cup of tea. I tend to comment only when I think I have something specific and helpful to say, or when I really love a piece. I've only given feedback in the main forum. I don't have any substantial poetry education, so I never felt "qualified" to give feedback in the Critique group.

I got into the Poetry Forum because it was a place where I could browse relax, and read, maybe offer a constructive comment or two, and enjoy myself. [Certain other forums were causing me ... agitation, shall we say.] And I like to stretch the poetry muscles when there's a contest because, well, it's fun and community-oriented.

[I don't think I picked the right answer in the poll. I selected #2. I think my answer is somewhere between #1 and #2, so I should have picked "Other."]
***
Rob rocks!

[Godfather]

I think everything is alright the way it is. It was one day that KTC and Trish really went on a tear writing those things. Yeah it did knock other things off the front page, but so what? You can bring those to the top whenever you want. I think it's marvellous when two poets start writing poems to each other, and they do it for all of us to see.

I wouldn't change a thing. (Then again, I am very silly)

[ddgryphon]

I think it's marvellous when two poets start writing poems to each other, and they do it for all of us to see.

Ditto Ditto. I thought it was wonderful to watch that go back and forth -- such wonderful spontaneity is rare, and to have the quality it did -- well, pardon my geeky soul for saying it, but "WOOT!"

[DeniseK]

It was cool THAT day. But what if people did it everyday? It would get pretty old, and the poets who really wanted feedback would be banished to the password protected forum where the traffic is light. The Poetry section would become no more than a playground.

[Stew21]

well i know i don't have the stamina to do something like that everyday. it was a unique moment, not the norm.

[Sarita]

I got into the Poetry Forum because it was a place where I could browse relax, and read, maybe offer a constructive comment or two, and enjoy myself. Oh great, so I'm the only one who came to read and comment on Will's poetry?

*sigh* MK has abandoned me...

(sorry, for the off topic post, Rob. I hope you can still love me :) )

[KTC]

well i know i don't have the stamina to do something like that everyday. it was a unique moment, not the norm.

I wrote 23 poems yesterday and still managed to go to my party/reading and take my son and dog for a long nature hike. Nothing outlasts the KTC Bunny.

[Stew21]

I wrote 23 poems yesterday and still managed to go to my party/reading and take my son and dog for a long nature hike. Nothing outlasts the KTC Bunny.

I don't doubt that one bit, Kevin! :) I really don't. I know I can't outlast you!
It is fun to ride that wave though. I have a ton of stuff i write each day that never posts here.

[Stew21]

Oh great, so I'm the only one who came to read and comment on Will's poetry?

*sigh* MK has abandoned me...

(sorry, for the off topic post, Rob. I hope you can still love me :) )

I don't think it is off topic at all. I always read and commented on William's poetry. I have since he left gone out to www.poisonpen.net (http://www.poisonpen.net) a couple times to get my fix of William Poetry. I used to do the same thing with Zach's just read and enjoy. Which is exactly what I also like to do with Rob's poetry and kevin's. I think it's dead on, on topic. sometimes we just want to read beautiful work. The whole forum is NOT a workshop.

[DeniseK]

I wrote 23 poems yesterday and still managed to go to my party/reading and take my son and dog for a long nature hike. Nothing outlasts the KTC Bunny.

I have been working on one poem all week, reading this makes me...sick?..no...jealous?...mmmhhh, I don't think so, my first thought is they must not be very good poems...angry?...kind of....I know! It irritates me, that's it. It's that cavalier attitude again, nanna nanna boo boo, I wrote 23 poems today, yada, yada, but you know, I place no VALUE on them...:Shrug:

You are making a mockery of poetry, KTC, and I don't appreciate it.

[Stew21]

I have been working on one poem all week, reading this makes me...sick?..no...jealous?...mmmhhh, I don't think so, my first thought is they must not be very good poems...angry?...kind of....I know! It irritates me, that's it. It's that cavalier attitude again, nanna nanna boo boo, I wrote 23 poems today, yada, yada, but you know, I place no VALUE on them...:Shrug:

You are making a mockery of poetry, KTC, and I don't appreciate it.

I find this highly inappropriate, Denise. He's not mocking poetry. he's writing it, and knowing his work from here, it's all good. the stuff he does in 2 minutes is better than something i could spend a week on. How he writes poetry has nothing to do with this conversation, and there is no room in this conversation for a comment like this.

[DeniseK]

I find this highly inappropriate, Denise. He's not mocking poetry. he's writing it, and knowing his work from here, it's all good. the stuff he does in 2 minutes is better than something i could spend a week on. How he writes poetry has nothing to do with this conversation, and there is no room in this conversation for a comment like this.

I don't believe it's your place to tell me that, Trish, last time I looked, Rob was the mod. And just because someone doesn't have the same opinion as you doesn't give you the right to jump down their throat. I am free to express myself just like you are.

[KTC]

LOL. I don't know whether to take you seriously or not. I never write them to flaunt a cavalier attitude. It's write or burst for me. I didn't want to burst yesterday. Besides...I was playing a game with my friends. One friend emailed me and said she was jealous that I respond to another friend's emails in poetic form...so I emailed her back a poem and it went from there. I hope you are only joking in your response. I have a lot of emotions at the surface...I always have. I write poetry to pluck from that surface and make it more bearable. I don't try to be disrespectful of poetry. The fact that I write so much of it shouldn't mean anything like that. I need it. Besides, different people write differently. It sounds to me like you have an Eternal Editor. I don't. I never did. What comes through the fingers when I type is something that just comes out. I don't process it through any editor first. And, yes, it's all bad. 23 poems of pure unabandoned sh*t. It's like making mud pies. They look so pretty and you can't wait to serve them to your mommy. But, hell...the last thing Momma wants to do is bite into one of them.

[DeniseK]

LOL. I don't know whether to take you seriously or not. I never write them to flaunt a cavalier attitude. It's write or burst for me. I didn't want to burst yesterday. Besides...I was playing a game with my friends. One friend emailed me and said she was jealous that I respond to another friend's emails in poetic form...so I emailed her back a poem and it went from there. I hope you are only joking in your response. I have a lot of emotions at the surface...I always have. I write poetry to pluck from that surface and make it more bearable. I don't try to be disrespectful of poetry. The fact that I write so much of it shouldn't mean anything like that. I need it. Besides, different people write differently. It sounds to me like you have an Eternal Editor. I don't. I never did. What comes through the fingers when I type is something that just comes out. I don't process it through any editor first. And, yes, it's all bad. 23 poems of pure unabandoned sh*t. It's like making mud pies. They look so pretty and you can't wait to serve them to your mommy. But, hell...the last thing Momma wants to do is bite into one of them.

Lol, ok, KTC, I get you.

[Stew21]

I don't believe it's your place to tell me that, Trish, last time I looked, Rob was the mod. And just because someone doesn't have the same opinion as you doesn't give you the right to jump down their throat. I am free to express myself just like you are.

by all means you are.
our opinions differ on this subject. I think you too spoke harshly. I respect you as a poet and respect your opinion. i just don't believe that how a poet puts a poem together and how he personally feels about that work has anything to do with any of this.
we'll have to agree to disagree.


eta: I see you and Kevin have discussed. good enough for me.

I'm outta this conversation from this point forward. have fun, everyone. it would be great to see you writing poetry and posting for us to read instead of talking about this stuff. it's a poetry forum. write! :)

[KTC]

Wow. Slow down. Denise can think whatever she wants of me. I'm fine with it.

[Stew21]

I just don't get it. What I see is people making judgments on how a piece of poetry is written and with what attitude it is written determining it's value to the members of the forum. I think that's absurd. so i'm getting out of the conversation now.
I'm glad it doesn't offend ya, K.

[KTC]

Sorry Trish. I would be hypocritical if I took offense...since I already said I don't put value on my poetry. I have explained that I tried to value it. I long to value it in one form or another. When I read it it all comes out flat and uninspiring. but that's besides the point. I can't worry about what people think of my process...because it's basically put down in an automaton fashion anyway.

[Stew21]

don't apologize to me! Ack! if you're not offended all the better. I still dont' want to talk about it anymore.
see ya round, kid. ;)

[DeniseK]

It's not about making judgements of how much time is spent on a poem being a reflection of it's worth. But this is a poetry forum, there ARE serious poets here, and how do you think it makes them feel for someone to come along and say, "Oh, I wrote 23 poems today!"

Whatever. I'm going back to poets. org. Ya'll have fun!

[KTC]

Don't you make me get Earl and Thelma here! Smile and let madness be your umbrella of candor. Or is that, smile and the elephant smiles with a crooked face in your direction. Wait, I know I have it somewhere. I'd like to buy the world a... NO...that's not it. Smile and let the umbrella raise your face to the rain. Smile and the universe sees the creases at the corners of your mouth. Smile...I got it! SMILE AND THE WHOLE SMILE WORLDS ALONG WITH YOU!

Let it go. and Don't be see ya around kid'ding me! I am fair game and ready to be shot.

[Stew21]

damn it Kevin.
You made me smirk.

[Unique]

! I am fair game and ready to be shot.

Hold still.

[drachin8]

It was cool THAT day. But what if people did it everyday? It would get pretty old, and the poets who really wanted feedback would be banished to the password protected forum where the traffic is light. The Poetry section would become no more than a playground.

I have to pipe in here at how sad this statement makes me feel.

:( <= sad Michelle

Why is traffic light in the Poetry Critique forum? If you personally fail to visit it because nobody else is there, does that not perpetuate the issue?

I am sorrowful when I read tidbits like this or statements from others who do not feel qualified to critique on the Poetry Critique forum (but are okay with critiquing on this forum). I would like to see more of the great personalities from this section visit more often those of us who haunt the poetry pit below. I would like to see more poets in this section have the self-confidence to let those folk in the poetry pit know what they experience with the work there. I cannot find any reason for things to be in the state they are except for lack of self-confidence and a self-perpetuating cycle (nobody is there, so I won't go there, which means less people there, etc etc etc).

I feel bad because I do not always have time to crit every piece in the pit (especially these past few weeks), but if I am going to crit in my limited time, I at least want it to be in the forum where people feel they need it most.

I don't want to this to read like a personal attack (because I don't mean it that way), but you have the unfortunate luck of having posted a statement that I think epitomizes a core issue with the forum dichotomy (oh geez, did I actually just put that many big words in one place?)(somebody, shoot me now...)(or let me leave work and take a nap).

Discussion, anyone? Or is everybody happy with the current status of the Poetry Critique forum?

-Michelle

[KTC]

Man...does it really matter that much? You're not really ticked that I said I wrote 23 poems? I wish both of you would stay. I rescind. Why should it matter if I say I wrote 900 poems yesterday? I still love poetry and respect it deeply. I never said I didn't. I'm perplexed and we are far off topic but hey...

[Stew21]

i'm not going anywhere Kevin. (if you were referencing me in the "you both"). I just don't want to have *this* conversation anymore. I would venture a guess that you would have been more offended by the statement if it hadn't been directed at you.
I'm perplexed too.

Michelle - i know exactly what you are saying, i'll come back when i have the energy to respond. you do an awesome job of replying to and critting a great deal of work. You do it very well and very thoroughly. we are lucky to have you doing it.
I do think the intention of this was to determine the use of main forum and crit forum. so Michelle, you're right on cue.

[KTC]

I just thought I'd say something to you, Denise. I really don't mind what you said about me. I deserve it. But my mind is still boggling over the one poem in one week thing. That truly floors me. So I guess we are even in our perplexity. After 3 minutes, if it didn't come out...it's not coming out. Maybe I see my own poetry too much like a BM? If I was on the toilet for a week squeaking out ONE I'd be worried.

[P.H.Delarran]

:ROFL:poetry is a bm? then I suffer from extreme constipation.
so is a haiku a fart?
(my apologies)

I also enjoyed the back and forth poetry bantor Trish and Kevin had that day. Watching creativity unfold is a learning experience all in itsself. Sure Denise, if that happened every single day maybe it would get old, and Rob may have to put a hat on it, or give them their own room lol, but that's hypothetical.
It's easy enough to bump a poem, just post or comment on another one. I don't think anyone should feel excluded or discouraged from posting their poetry here, whether they write one a year or one hundred a week.

[Godfather]

drachin, you're right. I want to crit more. But I hardly seem to have time to write any more, which is higher on my to-do list. School has just started again, homework friends homework and stilettos.

[poetinahat]

Civil tongues, please, everyone. Respect each other's opinions, please.

Kevin, tell Earl Thelma's feelin' poetic. And a big manly chuck on the shoulder for the way you're comporting yourself.

It's great that we all care so much about the boards. But I think the discussion, as fruitful as it is, is deteriorating; time to act.

Stay tuned.

[mkcbunny]

Oh great, so I'm the only one who came to read and comment on Will's poetry?

*sigh* MK has abandoned me...

(sorry, for the off topic post, Rob. I hope you can still love me :) )
Actually, I never felt comfortable being too gushy about William. Now that he's gone, I guess I can admit that I had a little word-crush. LOL. [Shhhh. Vote_Bot might get jealous.]

Rob knows I love him. Not to mention our little Zack, wherever in China he is. Ba$tard.

[mkcbunny]

I am sorrowful when I read tidbits like this or statements from others who do not feel qualified to critique on the Poetry Critique forum (but are okay with critiquing on this forum).
Since I was the one who said this, maybe I should clarify. I just figured that people posting in the Crit forum would be expecting a more professional, experienced opinion. And, as I said, I don't have the education that allows me to asses poetry from a technical point of view, or to offer comments regarding specific forms of poetry.

When I see people comment about various styles, like a sonnet for example, well, frankly, I don't know what makes a sonnet a sonnet. [There, I said it. Now I can go hide back under that rock.] It's a little embarrassing for someone like myself to offer comments, since I'm basically going on instinct, rhythm, content, and probably the things an "average reader" would. But I didn't think the Crit forum was for "average" comments. Since the main forum was more freeform and loose, I felt comfortable there offering my thoughts simply based on the use of language.

Maybe that's sad, I don't know, but that's how I felt about it. I didn't come here as "a poet." I visited here because I liked being in here. What I find unsettling is that, coming back after a bit of an absence, there's this conflict going on in the PF.

[Stew21]

mkc, i don't know what makes a sonnet or a sestina or any of those either. i am a content, rhythm, feel, instinct kind of person. I know exactly what you mean. I think I have an eye for what works and doesn't, but I have no idea about form being correct or incorrect. glad it's not just me!
:)

[KTC]

I too don't know a sonnet from a sonogram from a sestina from a taco. I think a sestina is some kind of afternoon nap and then I see people posting a poem and callin' it a sestina. I have to take a stanza on that one. I haiku all the time this time of year...it's the alergies. Bless me. I know nothing. Maybe we can have a locked post with poetry definitions? But then again, I probably wouldn't read it. I'm one of those people going through life not knowing anything and not motivated enough to find out. But...hmmm...that would be interesting.

When I post a comment to the poetry of another, I usually caveat it with, "I know nothing." And...I usually just say, "Maybe it would SOUND better if you changed this word to this one?" I'm a listener with poetry. It is, afterall, soulmusic. I just say whether or not it sounds good. Beyond that, I can't offer a better critique. I'm not educated enough on the terms and meanings of poetic terms.

When I read published poetry...whether it be Keats or John Doe from Brackenbush, Wisconsin...I just listen to the way it splashes off my mind. I know whether I like it or not...and possibly, occasionally, what might make it sound better.

[DeniseK]

Since I was the one who said this, maybe I should clarify. I just figured that people posting in the Crit forum would be expecting a more professional, experienced opinion. And, as I said, I don't have the education that allows me to asses poetry from a technical point of view, or to offer comments regarding specific forms of poetry.

When I see people comment about various styles, like a sonnet for example, well, frankly, I don't know what makes a sonnet a sonnet. [There, I said it. Now I can go hide back under that rock.] It's a little embarrassing for someone like myself to offer comments, since I'm basically going on instinct, rhythm, content, and probably the things an "average reader" would. But I didn't think the Crit forum was for "average" comments. Since the main forum was more freeform and loose, I felt comfortable there offering my thoughts simply based on the use of language.

Maybe that's sad, I don't know, but that's how I felt about it. I didn't come here as "a poet." I visited here because I liked being in here. What I find unsettling is that, coming back after a bit of an absence, there's this conflict going on in the PF.

This is such a great post. I feel the same way, as someone said in an earlier post, I don't feel qualified to critique a poem and do it justice. That's the whole reason I post a poem for critique, to hope that someone better than me at it will help me to grow and understand.

And I don't see this as an argument, I see it as a discussion, one that is allowing poets across the board to express their thoughts.

[Stew21]

I too don't know a sonnet from a sonogram from a sestina from a taco. I think a sestina is some kind of afternoon nap and then I see people posting a poem and callin' it a sestina. I have to take a stanza on that one. I haiku all the time this time of year...it's the alergies. Bless me. I know nothing. Maybe we can have a locked post with poetry definitions? But then again, I probably wouldn't read it. I'm one of those people going through life not knowing anything and not motivated enough to find out. But...hmmm...that would be interesting.

When I post a comment to the poetry of another, I usually caveat it with, "I know nothing." And...I usually just say, "Maybe it would SOUND better if you changed this word to this one?" I'm a listener with poetry. It is, afterall, soulmusic. I just say whether or not it sounds good. Beyond that, I can't offer a better critique. I'm not educated enough on the terms and meanings of poetic terms.

When I read published poetry...whether it be Keats or John Doe from Brackenbush, Wisconsin...I just listen to the way it splashes off my mind. I know whether I like it or not...and possibly, occasionally, what might make it sound better.

Bless you. (I haiku this time of year too.) And ditto to this entire post! :) (and bunny's too!) and I see Denise agrees as well. ditto Denise too.

:)

[KTC]

Denise...I too see it as a discussion, not an argument. And, yes, all, I realize I've been putting zingers out there. I feel almost like an instigator lately...but an innocent one. Sometimes I open my mouth and then watch the words come out unable to stop them. I think it's the helium I ingested as a kid?

[Stew21]

so when you say them out loud are they helium confessions, Kevin? :D

[poetinahat]

Guess what, folks: I have no qualification to crit anything here. Usually, that sort of thing stops me cold. For some reason, I just started offering my feedback here. I figured, no harm in saying *something*.

I still don't know whether I'm any good at it, but I try hard and mean well. That's all it really takes! And I'd never heard of a sestina before I got here; never written sestina or sonnet either. Googled 'em and went to work.

I'm having fun, and I enjoy critting now. I might well get cut to ribbons as a critic outside this forum, but that's fine. It's all learning.

Whatever you're comfortable with offering is very welcome, as long as it's sincere and constructive. I think many of you may be underestimating yourselves.

[KTC]

Yes indeed they are, Trish.

Hmmm? That would be a good title for my next chapbook? Helium Confessions.

I like it! I'm putting one together right now for a chapbook festival. Hmmm?

[Stew21]

you know that's what Truman catches in the red balloons and I think it is an EXCELLENT title! ~Goferit!

[drachin8]

Hello, mkcbunny!

I want to make sure you understand that my "sad" comment was in regards to how it made me personally feel to see the lack of self-confidence in critting. I believe there are a ton of great crittters out here who simply don't think they have the skills to help somebody out. I don't look down on them, but I do wish there was a way I could inspire some confidence in them so that we could all learn together. So, I do not think that you are "sad" (in its slangy usage)(hehe), just the situation (in its non-slangy usage).

On that note, I started writing poetry again a few months ago. Before that, I stopped somewhere in my college days because I wanted to focus on my new technical career I was building (now see, that is actually "sad" in the slangy usage, aka really pathetic!). No English or Writing courses involving creativity were required for my Computer Science degree, so all I am critting with on these forums is the knowledge I gained in high school over a decade ago. Yup, high school English. Hehe.

I felt rather intimidated when I first began to crit, but I thought it would be a great opportunity to learn something even as I attempted to identify what things bothered me in a piece (and what things seemed pretty gosh-darned cool to me). Nobody yelled at me or said my comments were stupid, so I kept doing it. If somebody posts a poem regarding a structure I have zero knowledge with (and I actually recognize that there is a structure and don't just stick my foot in my mouth), I let them know in my crit that I am by no means anywhere near an expert on the form and give them thoughts on how I reacted to the piece as I read it.

Giving reactions to a piece is something that anybody can do (and only the reader is qualified to tell the writer what their personal experience was), and it is very helpful (because who doesn't want to know what reader reactions are to a piece, where attention flags, where things feel instinctively wrong/right, etc).

I have learned a lot while critting other pieces, probably even more than I have learned while writing them! I still cannot always identify why a line or a word bothers me in specific pieces, but I give it my best and let the writer know when I am just plain unsure.

So, since I have no poetical education outside of basic high school English, and I am critting, it fills me with sorrow to see others who have not yet been able to take that step and do not believe they have something worth saying on a forum where we would love to hear from them.

All of us here have something worth saying. That's what makes this place so great.


:) <= potentially happy Michelle

-Michelle

[DeniseK]

I will start critting in the private workshop, Michelle. You are exactly right, that's the reason I haven't, I don't feel qualified. But I'll do it anyway, and do my best.

And as far as this thread goes, I woke up thinking about it. I have been much too harsh. Different people are on different paths in their writing career, and as one who hates rules, why have I been trying to create them?

Sorry for being ornery. This forum is fine the way it is.

[mkcbunny]

Hello, mkcbunny!
All of us here have something worth saying. That's what makes this place so great.

I'll keep that all in mind, in terms of not making a distinction between the two forums and not being hesitant to enter Critique land. That said, there will still be plenty of poems that I can't say anything constructive about. I don't always have something worth saying. I feel that it's only worth making a comment if it either helps the person who wrote it somehow or, of course, if it's a big thumbs up--who doesn't want to hear that. But mainly, I want to offer something useful. If I can't figure out what that is, or if the piece just isn't my cup of tea, then I'm not going to comment. That's just me.

FTI: I spent several years as a film critic, so I'm no stranger to the process of offering public comments. But I knew a lot more about film than I do about poetry, so that might have something to do with my reticensce. [Also, it's a completely different thing to review an artform that charges money, sight unseen; the main purpose is to guide consumers, not to help the creator.] I'm very judgmental, and I have little patience for anything that doesn't work for me, so the last thing I want to do is open my big fat mouth and hurt someone's feelings when I'm in over my head.

[drachin8]

Hooray! Hugs for all!

*hugs all*

:) <= happy Michelle

I am glad to hear that both of you (DeniseK and mkcbunny) will fight against the fear and lend your insight to the poetry pit. Nobody can crit everything (or should, for that matter), but if you see a piece you would love to comment on and only that fear of not being qualified holds you back, then definitely shove that fear aside and comment anyway.

*does the happy shiny dance*


-Michelle

[Stew21]

glad you are doing a happy dance, Michelle! woo hoo!

[louisgodwin]

My 2 cents: I was always under the impression that the sole reason for the Critique Sub-Board's existence is because it is password-protected, thereby protecting a poem's first-pub rights. Other than that, I've always regarded them as being 2 boards for the same purpose.

KTC, if you stop posting your poetry, I'll hunt you down. Better yet, I'll sic Rhymegirl on you! She's closer to your territory than I am.

[poetinahat]

Okay... it's done!

There's now a separate sub-forum for poems you just want to share -- when you're not interested in critiques.

It's called The AW Chapbook, and you'll see it in the main Poetry Forum page, just under Poetry Critique.

Now, any poems posted on the main board, or in Poetry Critique, will be considered open to critique.

Let me know if you want any of your threads moved there. Enjoy!

[Rivana]

I really don't get why on Earth this discussion had to lead to another separate forum.
In my opinion it'll only lead to less posting and commenting, because -face it- we're all lazy sob's when it comes right down to it. And the more rules there are the more rules will be broken...we're poets after all. La vie boheme and all that...
*shrug* But that's just my view on it.

[poetinahat]

Thanks for sharing your opinion, but please don't tear down the idea. Several others thought it was a good one.

There are no new rules. Just a new place for people to post if they don't want crits. I don't see how that can possibly be seen as restrictive. It may even get one of our good guys posting again.

[Godfather]

You know, I'm torn between thinking it's a wonderful idea and a pointless one.

I guess it'll all depend on how it's used. If people use it right, it might create an incredible place. Then again, maybe not.

[Rivana]

poet<< It's not up to me to tear it down or otherwise and I wasn't even mean about it, just sharing my opinion. If you don't want people to disagree, then you shouldn't make polls and have them think their views on things matter. Though only having one side make its point is sort of -pointless.

[poetinahat]

Rivana, I'll reply to you via PM.

This poll was never about whether a new forum was needed. It was about how we use the existing boards. The new forum was meant to help those who would use it; it won't make any difference to those who don't.

As I said before: there are no new rules. Only one rule here: Respect Your Fellow Writer.

There's just a new forum where people can post if they just want to share. Nothing to do with how we use the existing forums. It was meant to help poets get crits. That's all; nothing more. If it dies, it dies.

I'm saddened that yet another thread has become argumentative. If anyone thinks it's a reflection of me as a moderator, I welcome - no, I ask - you to take up the issue with me and/or Jenna.

[Rivana]

poet<< I sent an answer. Relax. Even among friends tempers may flare during discussions. As long as we remain friends, it's no big deal.

[poetinahat]

The poll is closed now; I can see that the poll itself could have been better constructed. The way I see the results, the Poetry Critique forum is the place to post if you're keen to receive critiques.

Here's a summary, then, of what you can expect to find in each of the forums. These aren't rules; they're just guidelines so that poets and critics know what to expect.

* Poetry Critique
- poems where critiques are actively sought
- any poem where First Publication rights require protection (check with your publisher if you're unsure what they require)

* Main forum
- poems where critiques are welcome, but not sought
- games, discussions, announcements

* AW Chapbook
- poems where critique is not desired

I think that should satisfy everyone. Thanks to all of you; if you have questions or concerns, please contact me.

[Rivana]

Yay!
That's a nice structure. *hugs poet*

[skylarburris]

I think it would be much clearner if the "main" board didn't contain any poetry and was only used for discussing poetry writing, markets, poetry reading, etc. People could use the AW Chapbook if they don't want critiques and the Crtique forum if they do want critques. But I'm obviously too late to this dicussion! I do like the new subforums.

[JRH]

Hey, Skylar,

I think you have a good idea but have it backwards. The current Forums are and should be devoted to Poetry.

General Discussion of poetry writing, markets, poetry reading, critical techniques, comparison of Poetry Philosopies, etc. should be kept separate but the best way to do that is give them a Forum of their own

Just a thought,

JRH