Ethical problem with a thriller

Rolling Thunder · Sep 1, 2006

I’ve fleshed out a story idea for a thriller that would involve a sleeper cell of terrorists. With today’s focus on Islamic terrorists would it be better to have the characters portrayed as non-Muslim? It seems a bit trite (and unfair) to use a stereotype, doesn’t it?

The problem I see is with the audience. If the terrorists are 'home grown' does it make for a more interesting story?

James D. Macdonald · Sep 1, 2006

Well, if the terrorists are home grown it makes for a more realistic story. The overwhelming majority of terrorists in the USA have been native-born white male right-wingers.

LeeFlower · Sep 1, 2006

I'd go with white guys (assuming it's set in the U.S). That provides an added challenge to catching them-- in the post 9/11 age, it's much easier for white people to fly under the rader of local and national authorities than it is for those of arab descent. Even aside from 'random' airport screenings, arabs and arab americans have a much harder time passing unnoticed these days.

maestrowork · Sep 1, 2006

Muslims is so overdone, although you might be able to bank on the current situations, or people may say you're just trying to bank on the current situations... I don't know how many times I've seen people rolling their eyes when they see yet another Arab/Muslim terrorist... (although 24 did very well with theirs).

Home-grown terrorists would be something different, realistic, and interesting.

jbal · Sep 1, 2006

Screw being sensitive. Just do your homework and try to make them real. Maybe this is a decision best made on who you feel best equipped to write about. But I wouldn't worry about offending Muslims too much. After all, you're not writing about Muslims, you're writing about Muslim terrorists. No need for people to be offended unless they're terrorists.
Hmmm... on second thought better not piss off terrorists.

NeuroFizz · Sep 1, 2006

You want an interesting twist? Go back to when the U.S. supported the Afgans in their war with Russia. I believe they eventually became the Taliban, or at least our support had a role in the Taliban taking over. Now have home-grown terrorists supported by a middle-eastern group, but have that come back full circle to bite the middle-eastern group...

merper · Sep 1, 2006

From a purely commercial standpoint, muslim terrorist plotlines are becoming horribly cliche. You'd be going up against established heavyweights such as Vince Flynn, Tom Clancy, Baldacci, Daniel Silva(although he does provide a refreshing twist by focusing on an Israeli rather than an American), Updike(for the touchy-feely side) etc. ad infinitum. If you think your story is really that original or you can really write that well, go for it. Otherwise, maybe picking a different target would prove more intriguing.

Then again, given the paranoia caused by the media, there's a large market for muslim terrorist fiction. Whether you want to sell your soul to make money off a sensationalist plotline is up to you.

jbal · Sep 1, 2006

merper said:
From a purely commercial standpoint, muslim terrorist plotlines are becoming horribly cliche. You'd be going up against established heavyweights such as Vince Flynn, Tom Clancy, Baldacci, Daniel Silva(although he does provide a refreshing twist by focusing on an Israeli rather than an American), Updike(for the touchy-feely side) etc. ad infinitum. If you think your story is really that original or you can really write that well, go for it. Otherwise, maybe picking a different target would prove more intriguing.

Then again, given the paranoia caused by the media, there's a large market for muslim terrorist fiction. Whether you want to sell your soul to make money off a sensationalist plotline is up to you.

I thought it went without saying that it would need to be an original story, and well written. That pretty much goes for any subject matter.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 1, 2006

Will there be a large market for Muslim terrorist fiction three to five years from now (which is when you could expect a book you start today to hit the shelves)? Writing to exploit some popular theme is a poor strategy. What's hot today may be cold tomorrow.

merper · Sep 1, 2006

What I meant was, there are so many books in the genre, that what you might think is revolutionary might not be the case. For example, terrorists targetting the vice-president instead of the president probably isn't going to cut it for a unique plot.

dclary · Sep 1, 2006

Muslims is so overdone

As Maestro said.

I think the BIGGEST problem we have with action/thrillers today is the fact that all the typical/traditional bad guys... either AREN'T bad guys anymore, or have been massively overplayed.

ChaosTitan · Sep 1, 2006

dclary said:
As Maestro said.

I think the BIGGEST problem we have with action/thrillers today is the fact that all the typical/traditional bad guys... either AREN'T bad guys anymore, or have been massively overplayed.

Which gives action/thriller writers a nice challenge to overcome: new bad guys.

Rolling Thunder · Sep 1, 2006

chaostitan said:
Which gives action/thriller writers a nice challenge to overcome: new bad guys.

Actually, this is a close guess on where the synopsis goes. I stumbled into it actually, as I toyed with the characters, and came up with a double twist. The final outcome has five distinct outcomes available, each with its on set of repercussions on the surviving characters in the end.

I think I'll go with the home grown version....or Canadians! Hey, there's another twist!

Steve W · Sep 1, 2006

Hi,

Do you have to have the bad guys as 'bad guys'?

I don't care about political correctness or cliches, I just do what's best for the story. To that end, why not go with muslims if you're drawn to that angle, but instead of portraying them as evil suicide bombers who'll kill babies to prove their religious devotion, why not show them as passionate people, with real issues, seriously believing they're doing god's work and changing the world for the better.

A bad guy's only a cliche if there's nothing original/human about him, not because of his ethnicity.

Cheers,
Steve

Higgins · Sep 1, 2006

Be Real

jbal said:
Screw being sensitive. Just do your homework and try to make them real. Maybe this is a decision best made on who you feel best equipped to write about. But I wouldn't worry about offending Muslims too much. After all, you're not writing about Muslims, you're writing about Muslim terrorists. No need for people to be offended unless they're terrorists.
Hmmm... on second thought better not piss off terrorists.

Find out what successful terrorists are like as opposed to those who just kill people. For example, its best to:

a) have aims that it costs those you are pressuring very little to give you
b) have targets that are vital but don't kill anyone to destroy
c) show that you can keep up your campaign relentlessly with no killing but with major damage to those you are pressuring

Chances are, a terrorist campaign like that can succeed.

Rolling Thunder · Sep 1, 2006

Sokal said:
Find out what successful terrorists are like as opposed to those who just kill people. For example, its best to:

a) have aims that it costs those you are pressuring very little to give you
b) have targets that are vital but don't kill anyone to destroy
c) show that you can keep up your campaign relentlessly with no killing but with major damage to those you are pressuring

Chances are, a terrorist campaign like that can succeed.

(b) (c) Well, that kind of misses the point of terrorism though. Terror and fear of death are needed to drive the plot, death itself is a necessary by product. All killers, whether serial type or not, are driven by the need to control life around them; to mold reality to their thinking. Something of value, such as life, has to be threatened or else there's not enough conflict (IMO) to make a story worth reading. Someone's gonna DIE, dammit!

The idea of using an ethnic stereotype is out. I like the idea that a flawed protagonist, turned antagonist by virtue of his conscience only to realize the mistake when it is too late, works well. I wrote the introduction paragraph for the first chapter today and it appears that this story will work best from 1st person POV.

It's going to be a long WIP though. The research to ensure it is believable to the reader enough to pull them in will be huge.

RT

Higgins · Sep 1, 2006

Does Terrorist = Killer?

Rllgthunder said:
(b) (c) Well, that kind of misses the point of terrorism though. Terror and fear of death are needed to drive the plot, death itself is a necessary by product. All killers, whether serial type or not, are driven by the need to control life around them; to mold reality to their thinking. Something of value, such as life, has to be threatened or else there's not enough conflict (IMO) to make a story worth reading. Someone's gonna DIE, dammit!

The idea of using an ethnic stereotype is out. I like the idea that a flawed protagonist, turned antagonist by virtue of his conscience only to realize the mistake when it is too late, works well. I wrote the introduction paragraph for the first chapter today and it appears that this story will work best from 1st person POV.

It's going to be a long WIP though. The research to ensure it is believable to the reader enough to pull them in will be huge.

RT

The designation "terrorist" is generally taken as applying to people whose aims you don't sympathize with or people who kill to make political capital or both. There is another possible set of people: people who are determined to make political capital, but who are not well positioned socially or well-armed or numerous. Or to put it another way, you can make your terrorists powerless, but determined rather than blood-thirsty.
As for the amount of blood necessary to power the average thriller...obviously the more the better, but you can start small and work up in some "natural" way...

Jamesaritchie · Sep 1, 2006

story

Rllgthunder said:
I’ve fleshed out a story idea for a thriller that would involve a sleeper cell of terrorists. With today’s focus on Islamic terrorists would it be better to have the characters portrayed as non-Muslim? It seems a bit trite (and unfair) to use a stereotype, doesn’t it?

The problem I see is with the audience. If the terrorists are 'home grown' does it make for a more interesting story?

It makes for a more interesting story if it's well-written, action-filled, and has all the elements of good fiction.

Right now, Mulsim terrorists are teh big thing, they are in the news constantly, and they are the biggest threat. What will be true in a few years doesn't matter. What matters is what's true as an agent/editor is holding your manuscript.

There are many, many Muslim terrorists, and not writing about them out of fear of audience reaction is what writing should never be about.

Home grown terrorists are good, too. It should simply depend on the story you want to tell. Historically, left-wing terrorists are far more common than right wing terrorists.

It isn't about stereotyping, it's about telling the truth. Stereotypes come about because of poor writing, not because you use a Muslim as a terrorist.

If you have a story to tell, screw the market, screw trends, and screw reader reaction. Tell the story as honestly and as truthfully as you can. If it's any good, readers will want it.

dclary · Sep 1, 2006

chaostitan said:
Which gives action/thriller writers a nice challenge to overcome: new bad guys.

Exactly. My current action adventure makes the bad guys the aging former local-high school football heros of a small town, who have since declared a form of local militia martial law.

Prawn · Sep 3, 2006

Let me ask a related question. If you are going to write about terrorists, should you use an actual terrorist group, like Hammas, the IRA or ETA, or should you make up your own?

Vincent · Sep 3, 2006

Muslim terrorists may be 'a bit overdone' right now, but they're also a reality. Do hick white surpremists really have the self-discipline to maintain a sleeper cell?

I think if you change your terrorists into some politically correct non offensive 'bag guy' group, you might run the risk of it being obvious that you're nervous over the issue. And your terrorists could lose a lot of their credibility.

I have in mind the movie adaptation of Tom Clancy's 'The Sum of all Fears', made a couple years back. In an attempt to 'modernise' the story and take out old cliche's, as the producer said, they changed the Islamic terrorist faction into a bunch of German Nazi's. It was ridiculous.

As to home grown terrorists, yes, they exist. But is your group making weekend trips to the local state park, running around in duck-hunters camo shooting at tin cans and complaining about the gubbermint? Or are they living in the cities, blending in, trying to stay innocuous as they plan their big thing? I got the feeling from your post that you might have meant the second.

ted_curtis · Sep 3, 2006

beezle said:
Muslim terrorists may be 'a bit overdone' right now, but they're also a reality. Do hick white surpremists really have the self-discipline to maintain a sleeper cell?

As to home grown terrorists, yes, they exist. But is your group making weekend trips to the local state park, running around in duck-hunters camo shooting at tin cans and complaining about the gubbermint? Or are they living in the cities, blending in, trying to stay innocuous as they plan their big thing? I got the feeling from your post that you might have meant the second.

I think you're confusing the right-wing terrorist-wannabees with the real deal. the real terrorist is typing in the cubical next to you and wishing that he could shoot the Mexican housecleaner in the back...but he'll wait until it's time for the final solution.

I'm sure the Muslim world has it's equivalent of the dudes in camo, too.

Vincent · Sep 3, 2006

Is this about the lone nut, the Timothy McVeigh, the Martin Bryant, or is it about a dedicated group out to use violence to further their political/religious/anarchist/environmental/whatever goals?

Popeyesays · Sep 3, 2006

It's ironic that the best example of a terrorist campaign that killed as few as possible would be the Hagganah against the British in Palestine.

Of course, there is Mahatma Ghandi as well, but it's hard to make him a bad guy.

Regards,
Scott

Rolling Thunder · Sep 4, 2006

beezle said:
Is this about the lone nut, the Timothy McVeigh, the Martin Bryant, or is it about a dedicated group out to use violence to further their political/religious/anarchist/environmental/whatever goals?

No, no specific nut. REAL nuts would want a piece of the royalty action, so P*** on them!

Ethical problem with a thriller

Rolling Thunder

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

LeeFlower

Lurker Extraordinaire

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

jbal

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

merper

jbal

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

merper

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

ChaosTitan

Around

Rolling Thunder

Steve W

Higgins

Rolling Thunder

Higgins

Jamesaritchie

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

Prawn

Writing is finite,revising infinite

Vincent

Cheers

ted_curtis

Vincent

Cheers

Popeyesays

Now departed. Rest in peace, Scott, from all of us

Rolling Thunder