How much violence is too much?

IReidandWrite · Aug 30, 2006

So this guy in my novel, Steve, is totally insane and abusive.

Here's just SOME of the things he does:

-Takes one of his twin nieces and sells her to a drug dealer
-Rapes his wife twice (only made mention of really, and alluded to)
-Slams his wife into a wall, dislocates her shoulder, gives her 2 black eyes and a bloody nose.

and finally

-Not only CAUSES his niece's stress-induced asthma and makes it worse by smoking, but withholds her inhaler from both her and her aunt during a particularly bad asthma attack.

gromhard · Aug 30, 2006

I swear I know that guy...or fifty like him.

That's a fine ammount of violence for any genre and believable too, if Steve's that type of guy. Sadly though I know guys WORSE than Steve.

I hope someone kills him in the end. See here I'm already interested in your book. I think the bad guy/antagonists can be just as big a draw as an MC.

-G

Shadow_Ferret · Aug 30, 2006

So... when are you going to tell us about the too much violence?

IReidandWrite · Aug 30, 2006

Yeah, I wanna kill him too.

I forgot to mention that he SHOOTS his niece in the stomach. Yikes.

Thanks for the comments!

seun · Aug 30, 2006

Violence can be very effective or just boring. For me, it depends on who's involved. I once read an interview with George Romero; he said something along the lines that he wanted the violence in Dawn of the Dead to be cartoonish to the point of the viewer not noticing until it happened to characters the viewer hopefully cared about. You can throw in as much gore and violence as you like but if your readers don't care about the characters, it won't be effective.

NeuroFizz · Aug 30, 2006

The intensity of violence in a story depends upon how you write it. If it takes place "off screen" it can be relatively tame. At the same time, it loses the intensity of "on screen" actions. For "on screen" violence, it can still be shown with a distant POV, almost like an out-of-body experience for one of the characters. The risk here, and with the "off screen" violence, is it may become boring or tedious if it is maintained for too long, revisited too much, or too pervasive in the story. Finally, "on screen" violence can be extremely intense and personal with a tight POV, from the eyes of the tormentor or the victim. This should probably be provided in infrequent doses or it may come off as gratuitous. Above all, the major point about violence is how well is it woven into the fabric of the story. Even a suggestion of gratuitous violence can ruin a story.

Some types of violence can be difficult to sell, such as graphic violence against children.

Chisem · Aug 30, 2006

Good question. It's one I've dealt with with agents. Some have told me one of my books was too bloody. It does deal with death and violence, but then it's the story of a psychotic out for revenge after being imprisoned and on death row. I had the book vetted by a psychologist who found the antagonist's actions to be within the realms of reality and possibility. I really look forward to reading the responses to this question.

PattiTheWicked · Aug 30, 2006

I think what matters is "how much violence is necessary to tell the story"?

If you read JD Robb's "In Death" series, there's a LOT of violence -- and a lot of it is told in backstory. Thing is, the brutality that took place in the MC's childhood is crucial to the story line, because it shaped the adult she became. It also (later in the series) serves as a subplot. The books are graphic, and many of the crimes are described in detail -- and yet it serves as a stark contrast to the love story that's at the core of each of the books. I'm not sure that the stories would be nearly as powerful if the violence wasn't there.

Dslay · Aug 30, 2006

Doesn't sound like too much violence to me, and just by your short descriptions I got a really good mental picture of what this guy is like. I would definitely be turning pages to see if he gets what's coming to him later on.

I agree with gromhard. The violence seems realistic and there is much worse out there. After doing all that, I really hope you stick it to Steve good in the ending

It's always easier to stomach a real nasty character's actions if their fate turns out to be along the lines of the old "anything you do comes back to you thrice" philosophy.

Charlie

Summonere · Aug 30, 2006

I don’t think it’s possible to have too much violence in fiction.

Let me put that a few other ways: I don’t think it’s possible to have too much violence in fiction unless it detracts from the ability of the narrative to tell a coherent story -- but that‘s just a matter of personal opinion. You see, even if it did, there would be someone out there willing to praise it for its avant garde quality, the bold statement of artistic rebellion it makes, how it exposes or explores the limits of social squeamishness and confronts us with the daring and stark truth of our own humanity … even humanity at its worst, which is always important in certain kinds of art … and so on… In the end, real violence is more appalling and more grotesque in its many ways, even its most banal ways, than fictional violence will ever pretend to be.

Wasn’t it Sam Peckinpah, by the way, who said that if you want to grab an audience’s attention, use violence. If you want to keep it, use more violence?

blacbird · Aug 30, 2006

Patty and Shrugged have it exactly right (and James A. Ritchie is about to tell you the same thing, mesuspects). Like anything else you do in your fiction, the trick is to make sure it's appropriate and germane within the context of the story. Anything else is gratuitous.

caw.

maestrowork · Aug 30, 2006

NeuroFizz said:
The intensity of violence in a story depends upon how you write it. If it takes place "off screen" it can be relatively tame. At the same time, it loses the intensity of "on screen" actions.

Yes and no... it depends on the genre and how well you do it.

For example, in the movie Se7en (I know, we're talking about novels but I think screenplays can be relevant as far as storytelling is concerned), much of the violence happened off-screen, but it was probably one of the most disturbing, violent, and nerve-racking experiences I had because the writers/filmmakers was successful in stimulating my imagination. The violence (off screen) was cerebral as well as visceral.

Back to the question: Is there such a thing as too much violence. I think so. Of course it depends on the genres, but too much of a good thing is always bad. Bigger and louder is not necessarily better, and the readers might be desensitized and numbed by too much violence that it becomes irrelevant. Personally, I'd probably use just enough and let the readers' imagination go wild...

SpookyWriter · Aug 30, 2006

maestrowork said:
Personally, I'd probably use just enough and let the readers' imagination go wild...

And that's what makes writing good suspense so interesting to read. I don't want to be shown every detail of the incident. I don't need to know every action that transpired. Just give me enough to wet my lips and allow my imagination to take over (spooky thought, huh.)

IReidandWrite · Aug 30, 2006

Update:

Not only does he withhold the inahler, he throws it INTO THE FIREPLACE.

James D. Macdonald · Aug 30, 2006

How much is too much?

You're the artist. You figure it out.

Inkdaub · Sep 1, 2006

Your violence sounds fine.

Violence in books is an odd thing. I usually...in the vast majority of cases...love it. I love many things in books and movies or any story that I do not in life. But sometimes the violence of a story will repel me in some way. I read about a hundred pages of a book called Gardens of the Moon by Stephen Erickson and stopped because I just didn't like it. It was too violent. I have read and loved stories that were more violent...but this Erickson book was too violent in some strange way. It's hard to explain. I read a book by Michael Moorcock and had the same response.

IReidandWrite · Sep 1, 2006

Thanks for the input!

Here's what I consider to be his most violent scene:

-

Jessie looked up in fear at her husband as he delivered another blow to her face. She looked above the arm she was shielding her face with. Steve grabbed it forcefully and dislocated her shoulder. "No wife of mine is going to hide." Steve jerked Jessie up. "You deserve this, Jessie, now be an adult about it and take it."

Jessie whimpered and clutched her dislocated shoulder. She looked at her husband's already bloody fist as it reared back and soared toward her, giving her a bloody nose. "Stop, Steve..." Jessie whispered. "Please, please stop."

Wham. Wham. Two hits for two requests. Jessie tried her hardest to crawl away with one arm, not having the energy to get up and walk away. Her husband swiftly took hold of the back of her grey tee shirt collar. With a yelp, Jessie was pulled to her feet, her knees buckling. "You know, Jessie," Steve smiled cruelly. "I would've expected more from you, you being a former U.S. Army sergeant and all...suck it up and take a little beating." He threw Jessie against the wall, then walked over to her, kicking her in the stomach. She looked up at him weakly, her face covered in blood.

"Steve, I..." she wheezed, blood spilling from her mouth and down her shirt. "I just...I got busy...Syd had soccer practice...and...and day care was the only place..."

"He is my son, not yours." Steve glared. "I will instruct you on how my son is to be raised. You should be damn happy for the privilege to be around him, instead of taking care of that Jew every day." He paused. "It's the Jew's fault, is it?"

Jessie tensed.

"Well, that answers that." Steve smirked and led Jessie to Syd's bedroom, the both of them eyeing (Jessie in fear and Steve in malice) Syd's asthma inhaler. "Can she survive without that?"

"I doubt it," Jessie answered meekly, lacking the courage at that particular moment to lie to him.

"Excellent." He looked down at the sleeping child. "JEW! Get up!"

Syd's great green eyes snapped open and she jerked up, dressed in her blue tank-top and shorts that served as pajamas. "Y-yes, sir." She whispered.

"Get downstairs right now." Steve ordered as he tossed the inhaler up in the air, catching it perfectly every time.

"Yes sir," Syd mumbled, putting on her slippers and scrambling downstairs, Jessie placidly (as any reaction would mean the two womens' death) following her and Steve angrily trailing the both of them.

Jessie and Syd sat down on the living room couch, and Jessie noticed that all-too-familiar and all-too-terrifying wheezing sound: Syd was having trouble breathing. "Steve, she needs her inhaler." Jessie said, rubbing the child on the back gently to calm her - perhaps that would help in the meantime.

"Aww, does she?" Steve mock-pouted as he set the inhaler on the fireplace mantle, stabbing the fresh logs with the poker.

"What are you going to do?" Jessie asked fearfully, looking at the fireplace. "You're not going to throw Syd in there, are you?"

This only made matters worse. Syd looked at her aunt as she spoke, and her chest tightened.

"Not quite that, dear," Steve smiled. "Not yet, anyway." When he was satisfied with the fire's volume, he took the lifesaving tool and threw it into the flames, which sizzled with the addition of the aerosol object.

"NO!" Jessie cried hysterically. "Steve, she'll die! You can't - don't let her die! Please, God, save her! Save her!"

All the while, Syd was turning ghostly white. "Ann Jussie," She wheezed.

"Hold on, baby, hold on, sweetie." Jessie whispered and left the writhing, wretched one with her devil uncle. She entered the kitchen, hurriedly fumbling through drawers and cabinets. Where was the emergency inhaler? Syd was out for the summer, so her in-school inhaler had been taken home with her on the last day of school. Jessie rushed to the ailing one, sticking the inhaler in her mouth and depressing the top, releasing the precious medicine and saving her niece.

-

(can a mod move this to SYW please?

)

dclary · Sep 1, 2006

Nacho... No amount of violence is too violent, if it fits within the context of the novel. Good luck with it.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 1, 2006

This is first draft, right?

Chisem · Sep 1, 2006

It should also fit within the context of what you've written. Wouldn't it be difficult to rush to a drawer. search through it with both hands, and get back to the suffering girl, after your shoulder is dislocated and your arm is hanging useless?

What does the heroine feel? Is she in pain as she searches? Does blood make her grip slippery? Why does he let her search? Many questions here. The violence is graphic but considering what she does after such a bad beating, maybe its not be that bad after all.

As Macdonald asks, This is a first draft?

You've got potential.

dclary · Sep 1, 2006

For a first draft, include it all. Then whittle.

nicegrrl · Sep 1, 2006

Yeah, my story seems to have a fair amount of alluded violence. Oh well. It's life.

Higgins · Sep 1, 2006

Violence is harder on the Writer than the Reader

Project nachonaco said:
So this guy in my novel, Steve, is totally insane and abusive.

Here's just SOME of the things he does:

-Takes one of his twin nieces and sells her to a drug dealer
-Rapes his wife twice (only made mention of really, and alluded to)
-Slams his wife into a wall, dislocates her shoulder, gives her 2 black eyes and a bloody nose.

and finally

-Not only CAUSES his niece's stress-induced asthma and makes it worse by smoking, but withholds her inhaler from both her and her aunt during a particularly bad asthma attack.

I once had a hero who was supposedly quite violent, but I found it hard to support this supposition. At one point he recites a number of violent things he has done, but as for actually "having" violent scenes in the story (not offstage or recounted but just flat out narrated), I find it much more disturbing than the readers ever will and so I try to keep it to a minimum.

dclary · Sep 1, 2006

The midpoint of one of my supernatural thrillers requires the protagonist to rape his girlfriend. Violently. It's his point of no return.

Ardellis · Sep 2, 2006

My antagonist is so psychotic that writing him makes my skin crawl. Other people are either objects for his amusement or obstacles to eliminate. And he gets *paid* to torture people. Knives, addictive drugs, and sexual assault are his favorite tools.

I have written a couple of scenes with him that go way over into squick territory for me. I keep thinking I'll take them out, but I don't think I can. This is who he is, and who he is is integral to how the story plays out. To water it down would damage the rest of the book.

Living with this guy in my head, though, is not a happy thing.

How much violence is too much?

IReidandWrite

gromhard

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

IReidandWrite

seun

Horror Man

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

Chisem

PattiTheWicked

Unleashing Hell.

Dslay

Summonere

blacbird

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

SpookyWriter

IReidandWrite

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

Inkdaub

wrapped in plastic

IReidandWrite

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

Chisem

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

nicegrrl

Higgins

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

Ardellis

tortures make-believe people