Edgy v. Old-Fashioned

You must be aware of the enormous Christian book trade or the huge success of animated family features like "Nemo", etc.

Sheesh...

If it's a good story, interesting and well written with believable characters, it shouldn't matter what sort of "values" it has.

i think "old-fashioned" stories as you put it will always be accepted. i also think that edgy or quirky stories are just now being more accepted to a wider audience. there's room for both, just as long as they are well-written.

I guess it's the difference between writing(and movies?) as a medium for conveying information as opposed to escapism.

I have no idea where you're getting that happy endings don't exist anymore though. Since you seem to be going off movies, just over the summer, I can list, Pirates(The first one at least, and you know sparrow will be alive in the 3rd), Click, X-Men 3, Cars(Pretty much anything by Pixar), Nacho Libre, Miami Vice, Superman etc. etc.

The only movie I've seen recently without some sort of happy ending was A Scanner Darkly.

Old fashion still exists in the mainstream. But some people prefer edgy/quirky and no publishers or moviemakers are going to ignore that audience. Just write your stuff and find the best place for it.

It's total bull****, straight out of the fundamentalist playbook.

I'm going to attribute this to Brian's lack of knowledge of the publishing business.

I've read a lot of 'old-fashioned' stuff, from old-fashioned times. The stuff you got from the fourties and fifties was pretty much glazed over from the original, old-fashioned stuff.

I'll give you an example.

Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson was not written the way Walt Disney presented it in 1950. The version that Mr. Stevenson did was far more bloody and--dare I say it?--edgy, than what the old movies made it out to be.

Another good example of this would be Grimm's Fairy Tales. Some of the details in the original Grimm's Fairy Tales--an acquaintance of mine has a reproduction of some of the stories as they were originally told--would be considered bloody and horrific even by today's standards.


My point is that true old-fashioned stuff was, in many ways, more bloody and more edgy than just about anything out there today. Even the Bible is filled with stories of wholesale slaughter and gory details of disembowelment. Old-fashioned is not so 'clean and nice' as many would make it out to be.

Brian,

Don't let it bother you. She may have had BIC for the entire night, trying to fix a plot problem. Rewrites can make one cranky.

RT

Brian, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to point out something to you just for a moment, about these forums.

AbsoluteWrite has several thousand members. Each of these members has their own little quirks and their own little ways. I would recommend that you consider this when one of the members here says something distasteful to you or about you.

I think personally what Sassenach did was wrong, but at the same time, I have been a member here for more than a year now, and I've learned that that's just the way she is.

My point is that you have to remember we're all human, with human faults and attributes. Don't be quick to be offended, because there are so many people here who are willing to help you out and to give you the answers you're looking for.

Also, if you find someone's comments to be too much for you to handle, you can always resort to the 'Ignore' feature in your User CP. This will allow you to read the comments by people you want to hear from, without necessarily having to listen to comments by those who you believe are insulting to you.


Honestly, I wish you the best of luck, and I hope my own post did not offend. I was simply explaining that 'old-fashioned' is not what many of us think it is. I had no intent on sounding like a jerk, but sometimes I admittedly do come across as one. If I did sound like one, I offer my apologies for that.


In the mean time, I hope you will stick around and continue to peruse the forums. Despite how some people might act on these forums, I think they'll be a good resource for you in learning the ins and outs of the writing business.


I wish you the best, and I hope you have a good Sunday.

I see no reason to jump all over Brian's question, and find some of the comments here to be unduly harsh. He's making an observation that has been made many times. Whether he's industry adept is immaterial to his concerns over what he's feels is a change in prevailing winds of literature.

Brian, all I can say is that if a story has a plot that a publisher feels they can sell, then it doesn't matter whether it's about a group of androgynous motorcyclists who drink only the blood of vestal virgins or a story about boy who's at the crossroads of his religion right before his Bar Mitzvah. It's all about finding the right publisher for your work. And yes, there is an audience for this type of work. Best of luck to you in your writing endeavors.

BrianTubbs said:

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or do I need to invest time trying to acquire skill and comfort with nontraditional storylines and characters in order to break in? THAT is the focus of my question.

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I don't think so, Brian. I believe that if you're more comfortable writing what you refer to as 'traditional' storylines, than you are 'non-traditional', you should write the traditional stuff.

You see, what matters is not so much the traditional versus non-traditional style, as the content of the work and its quality. Also, what will matter is what a particular publishing house will be publishing.

But to write something like High Noon or Mister Smith Goes to Washington is not the issue here. What is the issue, is the quality of your writing, and making sure to focus it on the right audience.


I hope this helps, and I wish you the best with your work.

To attempt an answer to the original question...

I don't think it's important to argue whether or not edgy is more desirable than traditional. I do think it's important to analyze WHY that MIGHT be the case. Why something like that might happen to an industry.

Traditional stories, like the ones Brian mentioned, have a familiar feel to them. So to capture the reader's attention, it's important that they be very well done. Nothing wrong with that.

Edgy or quirky stories have an easier time of it in my opinion. A writer doesn't necessarily NEED to perfect his novel in order to sell it, if the concept is new and exciting.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's easier to sell a mediocre edgy novel than it is to sell a mediocre traditional novel.

But if a novel is SUPERB, it doesn't matter whether it is edgy or traditional. It'll sell.

That being my opinion of the matter, I've made it my goal to write superb fiction. Period. Whether it's edgy or traditional...I'll let the novel itself decide that.

One thing I can think of: people want to be entertained. If they've seen the same "nice" people and the same story and the same happy endings before, the only reason why they would want to read that kind of story again is "comfort." They want familiarity, something they can relate. But in this attention-deficient world, many people want entertainment, and what's more entertaining than a bunch of weirdoes/quirks doing outrageous things? Also, younger people ALWAYS feel that they're different, and they want to relate to characters and stories that are "different." That's why movies like Napoleon Dynamite or Little Miss Sunshine are such darlings at film festivals.

But that's just a small part of the trend. People still want "familiar" stories, as long as they're well told. For every "The World According to Garp" there is a "Notebook." For every "Running with Scissors" there is a "A Painted House." The market is a very large place, with many millions of people looking for many millions of different things. If you write a good book, you will find an audience, whether it's quirky or wholesome.

Hi Brian,

When I was searching for agents/publishers while querying my first completed novel I came across many that I knew wouldn't be interested -- because their guidelines were clear about not accepting any violence/sex/drug abuse/etc. I think there's an audience for just about anything, so write your story and then try to find a home for it.

I have a quote on the wall of my cubicle at work: "It's better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self." Write what you'd like to read, and the prevailing wisdom says that someone else will also like to read it too.

Have a great day!
~C

If you want to know what's selling, check out the best seller lists. Especially the mass market fiction.

How many 'edgy' books are listed?

Brian you made an assertion that's baseless, and one that's frequently made by the religious right.

Once again, check out the CBA if you're looking for 'traditional' books, especially those with a Christian POV.

Brian, I write more traditional fiction. I'll never write edgy or quirky because I don't like to read it myself, and yet I am pretty confident of finding a publisher again. there are all kinds of readers out there, and even though it may seem at times that the book market is flooded with quirky or edgy, it's not true. And publishers are only too willing to provide for that market, BUT they want excellent stories. You can make even stories that uphold traditional values exciting and fresh. The trouble is when the stories themselves are boring. Agents complain that "it's all been done before", and I guess that's where the demand for edgy and quirky comes in.
We writers of more traditional stories do have to go that extra yard to provide something fresh and original. But that's fine with me. It pushes my limits, challenges me, and that can only be good for my writing. And I don't write for the Christian market.

I personally don't like the word "old-fashioned"; it has a musty sound to it, and you need to be careful your stories are not boring or preachy. Because it's true that those won't sell. It's possible to be innovative, contemporary and STILL uphold tradional values.

BrianTubbs said:

Maybe some of you could elaborate on what a lot of publishers mean by quirky, edgy, etc. Perhaps the terms mean things different than how I'm understanding them.

I agree w/ Sean, btw, on a lot of what he said. The most recent Ten Commandments television miniseries is far more dark and (if I'm using the term correctly) 'edgy' than the epic Ten Commandments film starring Charlton Hesston that is played every Passover season. The newer TV miniseries was actually more biblically accurate too, so....

To make it clear to everyone (esp Sassenach), I'm not always against raw, dark, edgy type drama. But, as an aspiring and inexperienced wannabe novelist-writer, I am more comfortable with traditional storylines. Can I break in with that? or do I need to invest time trying to acquire skill and comfort with nontraditional storylines and characters in order to break in? THAT is the focus of my question.

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One of the reasons that publishers mention that they are looking for edgy or quirky things is that some of the more traditional storylines have been done to death. From a publishers standpoint and from a consumer standpoint, people just want to see something new. Carrots are fine for dinner one night, but not for a month.

I think there's also a tendency to find things that more accurately reflect our "reality." The classicness of Leave it to Beaver would come off as corny in today's prime time.

josephwise said:

Edgy or quirky stories have an easier time of it in my opinion. A writer doesn't necessarily NEED to perfect his novel in order to sell it, if the concept is new and exciting.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's easier to sell a mediocre edgy novel than it is to sell a mediocre traditional novel.

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We reject plenty of stuff simply because the author is trying way too hard to be "edgy."

Either a writer understands what makes a book good and can do it, or they don't. Gimmicky storylines alone aren't going to get anybody anywhere any faster.

edgy

"Edgy" wins plenty of awards in Hollywood, but old-fashioned still usually sells better in books. One reason "edgy" novels seem to make such a splash is because they really aren't all that common, and much of the splash many of them make is mostly smoke and mirrors. It's newspaper and movie flash, rather than millions and millions of readers flash.

Even at this, I'd say at least 90% of Hollywood movies, and 98% of shows on TV are about good versus evil, with good winning.

Way too many wirters intentionally try to be "edgy," and doing so can kill a novel.

Even anti-heroes are most often bad on the surface and good underneath, and another big mistake new writers often make is creating an anti-heo that's bad on the surface and bad underneath.

Keep track of the bestseller list and you find good versus evil with good winning dominates.

I thought "American Beauty" was absolute crud, but even it is a morality play of sorts. Lester Burnham does not exactly have a happy ending to his life. He pays for his sins.

I thought "Unforgiven" was a good movie, simply because it does portray a real person in a real way, and sometimes the bad guy does win. But in a very real way, this, too, is a morality play, and there is no happy ending for William Munny. This is an anti-violence movie, and a definite statement that violence is evil and always leads to bad things for everyone concerned.

Too many people look at the surface of books or movies, try to copy that surface when they write their own book or script, and then wonder why it doesn't work.

Good versus evil still dominates movies, TV, and novels, and probably always will.

Well said.

Not true in my case. My publisher gave me specific orders to stay away from edgy/quirky/sexy for my forthcoming novel on the 2004 tsunami. Matter of fact, in the first draft, my female protagonist has her period with no sanitary pads to use. That was too edgy for my ed., even though that in fact *was* the situation in Aceh--the first relief workers on the ground (I was among them) were asked for panties and sanitary pads even before food and water.