PAMB and its quotes

[ResearchGuy]

. . .The difference with PA is that they claim they are not vanity, they do not put out the bucks that commercial publishers do. And I think that is the most insidious part of PA. They do not do the work of a commercial publisher, but they claim the profits of one.
Precisely. PA lies about what it is. For the most part, it lies to people who are very susceptible to those lies, who want (if not need) to believe them. That is what makes the scam work, the appeal to people who crave recognition and who are naive about publishing. (Those who crave recognition and are not naive about publishing will do what it takes to sell to a real publisher, or die trying. Those who do not particularly crave recognition but want to make money from writing will go where the money is--and that is not PA or anything like it.)

As for profits . . . PA settles for a pittance, but tries to make that pittance out of the authors' pockets on every book, so it adds up. No commercial publisher would be interested in publishing a book with a potential profit of a few hundred dollars at best. They at least have to aim high.

Sigh . . . in a while I am off to a writers group meeting that will be treated to self-promotions by some PA-published members who honestly think their books have been legitimately published. Nice folks, but they really do not understand.

Post-meeting edit. One of the PA authors is catching on. Interesting. The group still greets a PA-published book with applause, though. Not sure if that is out of kindness our out of unawareness. Both, I think.

--Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

If PA were just honest about what their business model is, I wouldn't have any objection to them -- and in my opinion they'd get just as many books and just as many sales.

[Gravity]

By his standards, anyone who writes anything and puts in places for people to read are 'published'.

I feel sorry for Alien. Yeah, it's true he's a loudmouthed, sassy kid, but he doesn't strike me as particularly stupid. He's kind of like a little dog that's been hit by a car. The dog's injured, and knows it, but finds itself unable to keep from snapping at those who try to help.

Unless I'm mistaken, Alien has already recieved a royalty statement (or two); he knows what a mess he's gotten himself into. It's sad, really. I don't think he's a bad kid at heart. Just hurt and confused.

[Christine N.]

And it's not like there isn't legitimate outlets for short fiction. A couple of our members are published by Chippewa Press, for example, which is a small but legitimate e-pub and print press, and does publish novel length books, but right now isn't accepting anything longer than 25,000 words. Many PA books would qualify on that front; they'd still have to make it though the submissions process.

[Jersey Chick]

And it's not like there isn't legitimate outlets for short fiction. A couple of our members are published by Chippewa Press, for example, which is a small but legitimate e-pub and print press, and does publish novel length books, but right now isn't accepting anything longer than 25,000 words. Many PA books would qualify on that front; they'd still have to make it though the submissions process.

That's part of what is so frustrating - there are plenty of places to submit if a) you try and b) you work for it. I don't get the attitude that says "I wrote it therefore it should automatically be published". Sure, it can happen that way, but for the majority, it's building up a few rejections, learning to revise and rewrite, and then submitting all over again. All the while starting a new project. There's no easy way out and I don't buy the motto that if you aren't a name, no one will publish you. Even Stephen King wasn't Stephen King once upon a time.

[James D. Macdonald]

You find too many people who generalize from "I can't sell my short stories" to "No one is buying short stories."

[Jersey Chick]

It's easier to blame others than to think maybe your work isn't as good as it should be, I guess.

[Christine N.]

I think part of that myth is on the fault of agents and publishers who aren't honest in their rejection letters. "We don't publish that many new authors" is sometimes used when "This reads like stink on a stick" should be used. Well, something nicer than that. Trouble is, is that if you're honest like that on a rejection letter, you get hate mail and it's more trouble than it's worth. So you get 'not right for us'. (Which is really sometimes true.)

People take "we don't publish that many new authors" and turn it into "If you're not a name you can't get published", because it's easier to blame the publishers and believe your work doesn't need more...work.

[Glenda]

I agree Christine, if the agent or publisher would tell why the work is rejected, you could improve your writing instead of thinking you have a good book, just not for this publisher or agent.

[Sassenach]

I agree Christine, if the agent or publisher would tell why the work is rejected, you could improve your writing instead of thinking you have a good book, just not for this publisher or agent.

Ain't going to happen. Editors and agents are editors and agents, not critique partners.

[Jersey Chick]

Ain't going to happen. Editors and agents are editors and agents, not critique partners.


Not only that, but then they'd be inundated with revised material they still don't want. Oy - imagine the flood of paper (or emails) an editor or agent would receive if they said "it needs XYZ" and the author made those changes and resubmitted. They'd be buried in an avalanche.

Vague rejections stink, but unfortunately, they come with the territory.

Miss Snark sums it up this way, if your queries are getting rejections, there's something wrong with the query. If a requested partial or full gets repeatedly rejected, it's time to sit down and figure out why. In the meantime, work on something else.

[Christine N.]

I don't want a critique. How about "This didn't appeal to me as a reader", instead of "we don't publish/represent many new authors", which gives the impression it's not the writing but the new-ness of the author.

I'm of course speaking of partials. Query rejections are a whole other ball of wax. "Not right for me", "Story didn't grab me", "I think this needs more work", even, would be better than the other.

Not right for me still works.

I know there are those out there who, no matter what you tell them, will still think their book is brilliant. So perhaps the whole thing is moot. Or moo, like a cow's opinion, yanno -moo?

[Jersey Chick]

Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but my work is brilliant.

just ask my mom ;)

[zizban]

A poor soul asks about editing and the brain washed give him the standard answers but he sees right through it:

So, there is no real editing?

Wonder how long he'll last?

[spike]

A poor soul asks about editing and the brain washed give him the standard answers but he sees right through it:


Quote:
So, there is no real editing?
Wonder how long he'll last?

I can't find it. Can you provide a link? Or have the board-nazis already removed it?

[zizban]

Here is the thread but the poster's questioning of editing is gone.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20120

[James D. Macdonald]

A poster in that thread says:

Do not be misled. PA does a good job of editing if you take the long option, work with your editor, and stay on top of their instructions. You can't just sit back and expect a miracle to come out of bad writing.

I would like to know when, and where, that poster was ever edited by anyone. Because do not be misled: PA does a lousy job of editing regardless of the option you take (but they do by far the best job if you take the "Don't touch my words" option). No one there is qualified or competent to edit anything. Nor do they even try -- there's no editing in the traditional sense. They don't spend enough time on production to even allow for reading the work. They run a spell-check and grammar-check, badly, and that's their deal.

Rather than return a marked-up manuscript, they return a pdf with the changes made invisibly, and require the authors to proofread that pdf themselves (a skill few first-time writers have) to find those changes. They allow insufficient time to do the job properly. This is all part of their standard "stupid author it's your fault!" defense to any criticisms of their slipshod and unprofessional operation.

UTA: I've looked at his webpage. Could someone please tell him that if he's going to put up a sample chapter it should be chapter one?

This is apparently his only published work. So no, he's never had anything edited, and is speaking from lack of experience.

[Jersey Chick]

And to make things worse, when someone pipes up and asks, there are so many other posters who are so quick to point out "You should have turned in the best manuscript you possibly can." And while that's true, isn't it also the job of your editor to catch things you missed? Otherwise, what's the point in having an editor???

Argh... sometimes I just wish I could reach into the computer and shake some of them. It's like watching a horror movie when you know the guy going into the woods is going to get it, the other people in the movie know it, but he goes out anyway and I'm sitting in my seat yelling at him to go back in the damn house!

[Ken Schneider]

I agree Christine, if the agent or publisher would tell why the work is rejected, you could improve your writing instead of thinking you have a good book, just not for this publisher or agent.

A writer who is serious doesn't need an agent or publisher to tell them to be a better writer. The writer should be striving for that.

That's why U.J. says, Send the last book around, and write another, let it set, make it the best you can, and send it around, etc.

I mean, I think it's obvious that if you sent the book around to twenty different publishers or agents and didn't get a bite...

Too many folks dwell on that first book, or one book. When you've written a complete work, let it rest, revised, and sent it out, your job on that book is finished. As a writer it is time to write another book!

Write and read a lot to be a better writer.

[zizban]

UTA: I've looked at his webpage. Could someone please tell him that if he's going to put up a sample chapter it should be chapter one?

Ha, ha, that's funny! He posted chapter 13.

[spike]

Ha, ha, that's funny! He posted chapter 13.

I'm sure he thinks that is his best chapter. Not going to make any other comments that will get me in trouble.

[zizban]

I wasn't mocking the chapter, just the fact he didn't post chapter one.

[triceretops]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif I have just checked my royalties letters and according to PA's figures I have sold 23 copies of my first book. Add to that the 50 that I bought right after it was published and you have 73 copies. My second book was turned down by PA because of poor sales - -so I guess the 'magic number' has to be more than 73.
Now I tried marketing my book - -I have been to bookstores and phoned them up , approached the local newspaper, canvassed schools and libraries. 2 libraries took my book because I gave them free copies.
Now the way I read it back when I signed with PA I mistakenly thought that they would get my book actually on the shelf in bookstores. When I discovered that this was not the case I was disappointed because I really wanted to walk into stores and see it on the shelf and see kids taking it down and looking at the cover and reading the blurb on the back.
Now people are talking about authors not investing in their book - -the biggest investment is the one the author has already made - -writing it. I'm sorry but I dont agree that the author should be the one who does all the promotion and marketing to bookstores. PA only seems interested in selling the authors own book back to him and relatives and friends.

This quote is very telling and disturbing. It seems that 73 sales is not enough to get the golden ticket for a second book. After having bought 50 copies, that runs about 600 bucks or so, with his discount, it still doesn't seem to be enough. PA, as of late, has been declining a lot of second publications and quoting that para 13 stuff. These posts, expressing these concerns, is exactly the discussion that PA wants and needs. They've instigated a fear factor here, in that if you don't hit a magic number, you will not be considered for a second book. Now, I wonder how many PA posters are going to understand this thread and believe it to mean that they better buy at least 75 copies or more to be eligible for a second book. Hell, why not make it 100 copies just to insure they get over that hump.

This is the best subliminal message I see working for PA. It can only be a matter of time before they ALL discover the magic number. They are groping right now, trying to determine that figure. Looks like it might be between 75 and 100 copies. Once that magic number is firmly established, the newbies will find this out through private emails, rather than the public postings.

BTW, this PA poster has a clue now. You can see it in his last sentence. This post should go poof pretty soon, UNLESS PA wants their authors to get a clue about how many books you need to buy to stay in the game. The post is damaging on one hand, but advantageous to PA on the other.

Tri

[Christine N.]

Wow. That author will be banned lickety-split; they know how things are actually supposed to work. Can't have that.

And sure, you definitely should turn in the best manuscript you can, but you should also be confident that any you missed will be picked up. Sure, most books do have an error or two, but nobody should put more in.

[spike]

I wasn't mocking the chapter, just the fact he didn't post chapter one.


I wasn't accusing you of mocking. I was saying that I wasn't mocking!

[triceretops]

I understand how you feel, believe me I do. What you must realize is that PA is no different from any other publisher. Even the well know publishers do not promote their authors. How many television advertisements, radio advertisements do you see from other publishers? Very few if any at all.
No publisher, will invest in first time authors PERIOD. Most people dont know how to promote their work, and many cannot afford to do it.
As far as the boosktores are concerned it is a matter of economics. If you had a business and someone that you did not know came into your place with a product and wanted you to carry that product, would you do so if no one knew about the product or the creator of that product?
Bookstores are in the business to make money and of course they want to invest funds on things that people will buy. If they order our books and for some reason cannot sell the book and the book is returned do you know that the bookstore is charged a restocking fee? Now would you want to carry something and then have to return it because of lack of sales only to have to pay to return that item? I dont think so. That is the situation that the publishers are in.
I do agree, that PA needs to have a better representative to the bookstores maybe that might help. PA is still considered to be a young publisher and I am sure that they are doing the best they can with the amount of books that they have.
I have a personal friend who has written five books. His first book sold over three million copies. His publisher did absolutely no marketing at all and Mike was left to do the majority of the work.

This post wins the absurd award for misinformation. I can't believe it. So, his friend sold 3,000,000 copies and he is stating that this publisher did NOTHING to promote the book? That's a laugh. The minute, nay, the second that book sold over 50,000 copies, or even less, the publisher would have jumped on this breakout novel like a tick on a dog and thrown tons of money into the marketing arena.

But Three Million! Get a righteous clue, bent feather. You are so far out of it you remind me of a Jerry Lewis flick--Way Way Out.

Boggled, bewitched and bedazzled.

Tri

[spike]

Tri,

Do you have a link for that post? I can't find it. Or did it go poof?

[triceretops]

Spike, the topic is "What's the Magical Number?" and it appears on the "Writing Discussion--General" board. My quotes are from page two, I think, the most recent.

Tri

[spike]

Those who believe mainline publishers promote all their books equally might find this comment from a well known publisher interesting: ". . . I deplore big publishing's emphasis on blockbusters and lack of interest in the midlist." It can be found in a Mystery Writers of America monthly publication.
All but the very top sellers are on the midlist. Those midlist books receive mention in Publishers Weekly and often get a review by Kirkus and that's about it except for what an agent, publicist or the writer does. That's one reason why so many well-established writers are having a tough time getting published today. The casualty rate in the mystery field today is astounding.
No one has a right to complain if PA isn't out there beating the drum for their book. There is very little of that these days except for the top dogs, politicians and celebrities that write books or have them ghost written.

Maybe someone with more experience could do a line-by-line on this.

This is just silliness. No one every thinks their publisher does "enough". It's the same as asking if someone is paid "enough".

However, this post is answered by some common sense:

it is true though that if you are published with a mainline publisher your book does stand a chance of appearing on a bookstore shelf. This is not so with PA or with any other POD publisher.

[e.dashwood]

Just to put it on the record, although I'd be surprised if it weren't already posted here elsewhere:

The typical legitimate publisher, although it will not be able to get on of its books in every bookstore, will be able to get it on the shelves of any bookstore. PA itself gets its books in no bookstores.

Ads are viewed by many publishers as useless and not cost-effective, more as ego boosts for authors.

Buzz for books is first created by pre-publication good reviews in outlets such as PW, Kirkus, Booksense, etc. Legitimate publishers have staff doing this kind of placement. This gives the sales force ammunition to promote the stocking of their books. PA has no sales force. Yes publishers have sales forces, and catalogs.

Book signings and author tours are also increasingly being seen as not cost effective by publishers. At a readind/signing ou see a couple of hundred people who are already interested in your book, while a small radio station interview could have thousands of listeners.

Excerpts from books and related articles in magazines also helps. Many publishers have in-house staff with contacts and the responsibility to do this.

In most mid- to large-sized publishers each author is assigned a publicist who coordinates all of the above.

And the crucial aspect is that as buzz develops, a person can go into a bookstore and ask for the book, and find it on the shelf. Even if you spent thousands creating buzz for a PA book, you would not find it on a shelf.

It is just not true that legitimate publishers do nothing. They do a lot. They want to sell books.

There is also the myth at PA that online sells a lot more than brick and mortar. Not true, the Book Industry Study Group estimates that only 5 per cent of books are sold online, more than half through dedicated bookstores, the balance through stores such as Walmart, supermarkets, and drugstores.

[stormie]

Argh... sometimes I just wish I could reach into the computer and shake some of them. It's like watching a horror movie when you know the guy going into the woods is going to get it, the other people in the movie know it, but he goes out anyway and I'm sitting in my seat yelling at him to go back in the damn house!
Yes! That's exactly why, when I'm not in my calm mode, I won't go to PAMB to read their postings.

[James D. Macdonald]

I understand how you feel, believe me I do. What you must realize is that PA is no different from any other publisher.

The ways in which PA is different from other publishers have been discussed exhaustively. Let's look at the specific examples this poster gives.
Even the well know publishers do not promote their authors.

This is not true. All real publishers promote all their authors, because only by selling books will they earn back their investment (mutiple thousands of dollars of which the advance is one of the smallest parts).

How many television advertisements, radio advertisements do you see from other publishers? Very few if any at all.

TV, radio, and print advertisements for first-time authors are a waste of time and money. Their only purpose is to say to readers "You know that book you were planning to buy the minute it came out? It's out!" A side benefit is to make the author feel all warm and fuzzy.

No publisher, will invest in first time authors PERIOD.

This is not true. Every real publisher invests heavily in all their authors, especially first-timers. Any one of them could be the next John Grisham (and that's what the publishers are all hoping for).

This is the very minimum that all real publishers do for all their authors:

1) Advance reading copies to legitimate review venues.
2) Salesforce promotion to bookstores and libraries.
3) Listing in the publisher's catalog.
4) Advertising to the trade.

Further promotion (display dumps, endcaps) doesn't go to everyone, but does go to many first-time authors.

Most people dont know how to promote their work, and many cannot afford to do it.

Nor do they have access to the review venues and bookstore buyers that publishers do. That's why publishers do the promotion, not authors. Promotion is very, very important. Why on earth would publishers leave it to underfunded amateurs?

As far as the boosktores are concerned it is a matter of economics. If you had a business and someone that you did not know came into your place with a product and wanted you to carry that product, would you do so if no one knew about the product or the creator of that product?

Bookstores shelve first-time authors all the time. Any one of them could be a breakaway best seller. The ones who have a hard time getting shelved are second-and-third-time authors with a disappointing track record.

Bookstores are in the business to make money and of course they want to invest funds on things that people will buy. If they order our books and for some reason cannot sell the book and the book is returned do you know that the bookstore is charged a restocking fee?

Real publishers don't charge a restocking fee. That's just one more way in which PublishAmerica is different from real publishers. ("For some reason" includes poor production values, poor editing, and very high prices.)

Now would you want to carry something and then have to return it because of lack of sales only to have to pay to return that item?

Nope! It's all part of PA's plan to make sure that your books aren't stocked in bookstores.

I dont think so. That is the situation that the publishers are in.

Real publishers don't have that problem.

I do agree, that PA needs to have a better representative to the bookstores maybe that might help. PA is still considered to be a young publisher and I am sure that they are doing the best they can with the amount of books that they have.

PA isn't a "young publisher" any more. They've been doing business -- badly -- for years. Yes, they'd need to market to bookstores, if selling books to the public were part of their business plan.

I have a personal friend who has written five books. His first book sold over three million copies. His publisher did absolutely no marketing at all and Mike was left to do the majority of the work.

I believe that's Mike Warnke (http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss098/warnke_index.htm). A very sad case.



Those who believe mainline publishers promote all their books equally might find this comment from a well known publisher interesting: ". . . I deplore big publishing's emphasis on blockbusters and lack of interest in the midlist." It can be found in a Mystery Writers of America monthly publication.

Yes, real publishers do emphasize blockbusters. But they make their regular, reliable income on the midlist. The best-sellers make the headlines. The okay-sellers power the industry.

All but the very top sellers are on the midlist.

Except the backlist, the off-list specials, and others. One reason for the mulitplication of imprints at publishers has been so that more books can be frontlist. More lists, more fronts. Really.

Those midlist books receive mention in Publishers Weekly and often get a review by Kirkus and that's about it except for what an agent, publicist or the writer does.

And being in the list at all, a list that is presented to every bookstore and library buyer in the country. How agents fit in this I don't know. The writer, or a publicist hired by the writer, may be able to move an extra 500 copies. Big deal.


That's one reason why so many well-established writers are having a tough time getting published today. The casualty rate in the mystery field today is astounding.

Established writers whose last book didn't sell as well as the preceeding book have problems, true.


No one has a right to complain if PA isn't out there beating the drum for their book.

Oh, BS. PA isn't out there beating the drum for anyone except to get more writers to come to PA. Real publishers wake up in the morning and go to bed at night trying to sell books to the public.


There is very little of that these days except for the top dogs, politicians and celebrities that write books or have them ghost written.

BS again. Has anyone over there actually looked at commercial bookselling lately? About half the personnel at any publisher are in the promotion and marketing departments. At most 5% of any publisher's list is celebrity work. What are the rest of those people doing?

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

SSDD (Same Stuff, Different Day)! It is a hearbreaking tale, often repeated too many times. The posted quote from the PAMB is the sum of all of its parts.

Gary Rogers

[Jersey Chick]

"Don't go into the woods! Don't!" <sigh>

Sorry - I couldn't resist...

[Christine N.]

I will say that even 'big names' like Jane Yolen are remarking that midlist authors are having a harder time. More and more I see the 'you've got to get out there and promote your book!' - from agents, from authors, from publishers.

None of that means you run to the bookstore and beg them to stock it. I have never, ever seen that asked. What they mean is they want you to put yourself in a position to be seen - on the internet with your own website and in readers forums, reviews and interviews the genre mags, going to cons and doing readings, local events, etc... all free or low-cost things that will drive people to the STORE to find your book. If your book isn't there(or if the store won't order it), it doesn't matter how much promo you do.

Nowhere in there is anything about tableclothes, flea markets or flyers under windshields.

And don't let PA feed you that line about coverprices being 'what the market will bear'. Books are entertainment, for the most part. If they;re looking for a good beach read and one PA book is the same price as two or three by other authors, and they're all equally interesting (just for simplicity) which do you think they will choose? Too expensive is too expensive, plain and simple.

[Jersey Chick]

A lot of the authors I know swear by websites and blogs as a way to keep their name out there - I know Nora Roberts comments (unless it's someone masquerading as her) regularly on one of the blogs I read. She actually got into a bit of a tiff with another commenter, which was kind of entertaining, really.

As for pricing, I wince when I pay $25 for a hardcover - never mind a paperback ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

PA's prices are "what the traffic will bear" if the traffic is "mom and dad."

Sure, I promote my books on the Intarweb. I'm in blogs, and messageboards and stuff. I do it because I like it, and it costs me nothing to put in a sig line that points to one of my books (or to something else that I find interesting). I've done radio interviews all over the place, have done it for years (my publishers set these up). Does it help? Maybe. Doesn't hurt, and doesn't cost me anything.

I think that booksigning tablecloths are just the neatest idea ever. Not that I'd ever make one, but wow. A 60x84 white tablecloth costs $15.58 at Wal*Mart. A package of those tee-shirt transfer sheets costs $7.89. I presume that you already have an ink-jet printer (or can find someone who has one). This is great! You'd only have to sell three more books (that you bought yourself for 50% off) than you otherwise would have to pay for the cost of your Booksigning Tablecloth! And, in a dim light from a great distance, it wouldn't even look tacky!

[emsuniverse]

Some replies to the OP:

I don't know what the problem is, but if I can't even order my own book, how can I expect others to order it. Something's funny. I'm not rolling in money and can't afford to buy 40 or 50 of my own books. Sorry.

and...

I dont think that we consider the cost factor when we submitt our work to PA. We are just excited to be published after many rejection letters from other publishers. PA deserves our best, after all they gave us theirs.

and...


Here's to show how little publishers work for their authors. A local bookstore owner I know went to a trade show a few months ago. Half of it was conferences, the other was expositions of the "new releases." This store owner visited dozens of publishers and gave out her store info so she could order some of their books. Not one of them from the conference called her back. She had tio chase them down. She is trying to get books onto her shelves and the publishers are making HER work for it. No wonder small bookstores are often so accommodationg to new authors. She was absolutely thrillied with the prompt and efficient service with with PA send my books to her!

It's like a trainwreck. You don't want to watch, but you can't turn away.

[emsuniverse]

Other stuff:

Talking about using Ingram's call in program to find out how many books were sold per isbn.

I called.

All numbers were...um...zero.


Wow. Shocker.

Next!

This one woman got her dollar:

I got it! Now I will frame it..I had gone for a doctor appointment and when I got home, my husband handed me the white envelope. He told me it looked to be from the publisher. My heart went up to my throat. I was thinking OH NO! Then I opened it and found my dollar bill taped to a page. Now i feel like I belong!

Uh, guys... THEY SEND A DOLLAR BILL? Not even a check? A DOLLAR BILL? Wonder if it's used or straight off the press...

Getting your books into bookstores:

You will find it is not worth your time to even mess with the bookstore scene.

Well then.

[Queen of Swords]

Uh, guys... THEY SEND A DOLLAR BILL? Not even a check? A DOLLAR BILL? Wonder if it's used or straight off the press...

Man, now PA is out one whole dollar. If only they had sent a check; the author would never have cashed it and so the money would have stayed in their account.

[zizban]

I wonder how that job goes? "Hey Timmy, you are new. Take these $1 bills and tape them to this pile of letters. Then later you fold the letters up and mail them..."

[Christine N.]

I thought you weren't allowed to send cash through the mail? Don't know where I heard that, years ago.

Or maybe it's just not smart.

[zizban]

You can send cash through the mail.

But its not smart at all.

[BenPanced]

How many television advertisements, radio advertisements do you see from other publishers? Very few if any at all.
Not counting the Elrons' Dianetics books? I've seen TV ads for maybe 4 books over the years (I'm talking actual TV ads, not fluff pieces the local news runs about the latest Harry Potter release). 4 books. Two were Stephen King. Publishers have more effective ways of marketing their books than having to deal with non-print advertising.

[Christine N.]

Thank you ziz, I thought it sounded stupid that you couldn't. I mean, who would know?

I've seen ads for Nora Roberts writing as...whoever, I don't read her, and James Patterson. And probably a SK book, but I can't tell you what title off the top of my head.

[Jersey Chick]

I wonder how that job goes? "Hey Timmy, you are new. Take these $1 bills and tape them to this pile of letters. Then later you fold the letters up and mail them..."


What do you suppose the starting salary would be for that position?

As for ads, I've seen tv ads for James Patterson and I think that's it.

I have heard radio ads for Janet Evanovich, but that might have something to do with the fact that her Plum books are all based in Trenton and NJ's biggest talk radio station (or only talk radio station) is in Ewing, which is a stone's throw from there. I'm pretty sure that's the station that plays her ads.

[James D. Macdonald]

Back to Mike Warnke for a minute: would it surprise you to learn that Mike overstated his sales (http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss098/sellingsatan.htm#fn1) of "over three million" by over two-and-a-half million? That is to say, he fibbed about that, too, making it a clean sweep: he fibbed about everything else.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's to show how little publishers work for their authors. A local bookstore owner I know went to a trade show a few months ago. Half of it was conferences, the other was expositions of the "new releases." This store owner visited dozens of publishers and gave out her store info so she could order some of their books. Not one of them from the conference called her back. She had tio chase them down. She is trying to get books onto her shelves and the publishers are making HER work for it. No wonder small bookstores are often so accommodationg to new authors. She was absolutely thrillied with the prompt and efficient service with with PA send my books to her!

From the "What's the Magic Number (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19964&start=15)" discussion.

That local bookstore owner should check with her distributors. Undoubtedly the publishers assumed that she would do so.

[ResearchGuy]

PA's prices are "what the traffic will bear" if the traffic is "mom and dad." . . .
Maybe not even mom and dad if they mail an order with a check.

I have mentioned in one or another PA thread my acquaintance who had a (probably quite interesting and well written) memoir published recently by PA. I now know of two people who, in response to the "friends and family" 100-postcard appeal ordered copies, by mail, with a check. Neither has received the book. At least one has waited more than a month. Maybe both have.

At best (assuming the books eventually show up), order fulfillment is abysmally slow. At worst, the orders are simply discarded (the checks might be the sticking point, but that is only my guess). Meanwhile, the author has copies for sale, but at $19.95 I have taken a pass.

One of the folks who probably induced that author into the PA fold is now having serious second thoughts, coming to recognize that PA is a vanity press. That person is now noticing the lack of royalties.

--Ken

[Maddog]

Were the checks cashed yet, Ken?

[ResearchGuy]

Were the checks cashed yet, Ken?
I do not know. I will follow up with that question next month, if the books have still not arrived.

--Ken

[DaveKuzminski]

Maybe they don't want those orders because the checks had to be mailed and that could make PA subject to postal laws?

Now all we have to do is hope that at least one check was cashed because PA keeps forgetting there are many laws out there and they need be convicted of breaking only one to see their "publishing house" of cards topple.

[Jersey Chick]

Wouldn't that be ironic? A "publishing house" shut down by its readers? ;)

[Rolling Thunder]

I was at www.walmart.com and I came across my book there by curiousity. Wow Walmart is selling my book! Woohoo! You guys may want to check yours out unless you already know about this. Thanks P.A. for getting it there. They are great!

I'm doubtful PA had anything to do with this. Shilling? Especially the way those last two lines read?

[stormie]

There was a humorous mystery in Ellery Queen about a writer who ended up doing a booksigning in the far corner of KMart.

[Dhewco]

I just have to say something about Mike Warnke . . . even if it's off topic. He might of lied out his (you know), but he was a very funny comedian. I didn't listen to his preaching, but I did rent his video and lmao at the comedy portion of his show.


David

[platedlizard]

I'm doubtful PA had anything to do with this. Shilling? Especially the way those last two lines read?

Wal*Mart, Target, etc. have some kind of deal with Amazon. Basically, you order the book from Amazon when you order from Wal*mart's website. Since Amazon carries anything with an ISBN. POD books, including PA, would certainly be available through Wal*Mart's online store. For example, I ordered Atlanta Nights from Target's site. It doesn't really mean anything. Plenty of books are featured on Amazon don't sell well, if at all there. Only Real World bookstore (or Supermarket) placement counts.

[James D. Macdonald]

Listed at Walmart.com ... find a book with an ISBN that isn't listed there. Go ahead, look. I'll wait.

[Jersey Chick]

I can't look - I'm too busy shaking my head over the guy who's absolutely convinced Amazon PODs every book that's ordered through them...

[zizban]

And they make their own DVDs, too, don't forget he said that.

[Jersey Chick]

The guy with the computer and printer must be very, very busy - filling all those orders. :e2BIC:

What leaves me shaking my head is that he doesn't see the flaw in his own logic...

[JulieB]

And they make their own DVDs, too, don't forget he said that.

It's the biggest factory in the world ... only we've never heard of it.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

They don't send checks because it would cost them more than $1 to process the checks if they were cashed, and they would have to track the uncashed ones for tax purposes as a liability.

There are letter-folding machines that can handle the dollar bill insertion.

[Rolling Thunder]

I' m just happy that someone would offer to publish my book. I would be happy to see it on walmart or target's website. Even if it was amazon. More people will be able to read it. I dont expect to get a lot of money and that's not why I'm doing it. I just want everyone to read and enjoy my book. Of course i will try to get it in stores as well once it comes out.

This is where self denial seems to overpower a person's commonsense. If you don't expect your book to make money (be it a little or a lot) you really can't expect 'everyone to read your book'.

I also found my book at wal mart, I even called my local store to see if they had it, but they said that oly the supercenters would be carrying it. But at least it's in a store. They even had my cover!!!

The quote above preceded the first and led to a bit of a rebuttal in the following:

Someone LIED to you my friend, Walmart will not shelve our books because the require a larger discount than what PA will give them. If your book is there then you have done something privately do get it there.

Being on the website and on the shelves are two different things entirely. Besides that Walmart outsources their book department.

How would someone manage to get their book on a shelf of WalMart if it wasn't being distributed?

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

It drives me completely Banana’s when I read quotes like the ones posted on this forum from the PAMB’s. Things like: “I don’t expect to make a lot of money..., I just want people to read and enjoy the book...” Give me a break! Geeze!!!

Okay, if that be the case, just go to Kinko’s and print-out, bind, and draw or copy cover art from the Web for the front and back - stand on a corner and give the dang things away.

Last time I checked, we are not living in a Star Trek 24th century world where money has no value. In addition, if a person has something that is worth marketing, spends countless hours writing, editing, etc, I would think that some sort of compensation, like PROFIT would be at least on the list of things that a person would like to achieve (Ferengy Style).

Who do these people think they are kidding? That is why there are “Intellectual Property Laws, Copyright Laws”, etc. After all expenses are deducted - PublishAmerica makes at least 60-80 percent profit on each book printed. The author gets only 8 cents on the dollar more or less in royalty payments.

People work all of their lives contributing to 401k’s, pension plans, Certificates of Deposits, investing in the Stock Market to make some Profit from their labors. Some people get to live maybe only 10-20 years after retiring, more or less - to enjoy the fruits of their efforts. Then, the remainder of their money is divided among the living when the person takes the eternal dirt nap. If they were smart, they also had “life Insurance” - I refer to it as Death Insurance.

Same thing applies to writing and publishing a book. Everyone profits from the product the author produces, Yet, under normal circumstances - the publishing house does make an effort to place the book in “circulation” and distribute the book. PublishAmerica relies on booksellers “Web Sites,” the author’s marketing plan, and “word of mouth“ as a distribution channel.

“Show me the book and the money!” Often, I do buy books from Quality Book Club, Crossings Book Club, History Book Club. I am very familiar with the books they have to offer - have seen the books in brick and mortar’s - leafed through them - and got a better price from the Book Clubs.

I do realize that the books that are selected are about to go out of print, and the publishing houses want to liquidate their inventory’s (thus, the low prices), who cares? I saved a bundle of money off list price! The author still gets paid (not as much - since the book is drastically reduced), the publishing house and the book club makes their money, and I am happy with the books.

What I am trying to say in my own “wind-bag” way, is that the books were in a distribution channel and marketed!

Humph!

Gary Rogers

[Queen of Swords]

I can completely understand wanting one's book to be read, but does that PA author really believe that strangers are going to shell out, what, $19.95 plus shipping for a novel they haven't seen, flipped through or read? A novel by an unknown author?

PA authors must have a far more optimistic view of human nature than I do.

[Jersey Chick]

I can completely understand wanting one's book to be read, but does that PA author really believe that strangers are going to shell out, what, $19.95 plus shipping for a novel they haven't seen, flipped through or read? A novel by an unknown author?

PA authors must have a far more optimistic view of human nature than I do.

Especially when said novel is barely 100 pages long! I grit my teeth when I buy a Janet Evanovich hardcover at $24 and change (but I do it every new Plum release.). But at least I'm pretty sure what I'm getting and it's not a paperback. I think I'd have to have my head examined if I laid out that kind of dough for a paperback. Better be one hell of a story :)

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Now out-of-print: Computer-End Program / By: Argile Stox (pen-name) 325 pages / ISBN# 1-4137-2496-5 / $24.95

Last time I checked Amazon.com, there is one book left, gathering dust in some warehouse (“more on the way” -Huh?).

I just wanted a regular sized paperback book priced at about $7.99 or less, not a huge trade paperback (not quite the size of hardcover).

Update: As of 12:35 am / 03.24.07 none are left in stock.

Gary Rogers

[JimmyD1318]

What happened to some of the great posters of the past? I would like to see all of them back. After all, we are one happy family, right?


Here's a peice of a post from the PAMB. Maybe,just maybe a lot of the writers have started to learn what PA is all about. That could be the reason you haven't seen them in awhile.

[ccomer]

I can only talk for myself. But by what I read on PAMB, everyone is going through what I did. The happiness of knowing their book is being published. LIke me, they didn't look at the big picture. Thanks to this board, nothing PA, has done to me YET, but thanks to this board, I got my act together and started diving into the internet and found, I just might be better then what PA has to offer. then there is that chance that I am blowing smoke. But I am not going to give up trying to be a "Real published Author".
I have asked for my rights back, which should be okay, as my book is still in the editing department..they tell me..
so I feel, now this is my opinion, that all those authors at PA. are good and hard working people and are thinking of seeing their book published. And PA is the shark (Jaws) waiting for all the little fishes to peek their heads out. They caught me. (that's called a sucker fish) But I am trying and fighting to get away.
Anyone got a stick of dynamite?

[brianm]

This is a new thread started on PAMB that, IMO, puts AW in a less than favorable light. The thread is entitled, “Nervous”.

Good Morning Writers,

I posted on my blog (http://mauraclegg.blogspot.com/) that my novel had been accepted and was going to be published by PA; noting my excitement

The other morning I further posted that things were now out of my hands since I had sent back my questionaire.

I received a comment, from someone I don't know, that spoke negatively of PA . There is link to a message board all talking of terrible things about PA and that it is nothing more than a vanity publisher.

It doesn't change my mind, but just looking for some positive reinforcement from successful writers here...

thanks

I went to the OP’s blog and read posts by people I can only guess are members of AW. They tell the site owner how bad PA is and then direct them here to AW. One does give links to other sites, but what bothered me were the links to AW.

The OP has posted twice more, including this post.

Thanks Helen. Most of what I have read that is negative is information about PA's lack of help and editing, but I can see that it seems that most of it is sour grapes. I have not heard anything here on the forum that would lead me to belive that I have made an incorrect decision.

I am proud to be a part of the PA family and twice as proud that my novel will be in print and available for people to but.

I am willing to do as much leg work as I am able to in order to promote my work; for it is mine and I nurtured it like a child to bring it to the work it is today. It is mine and I want to help to get it out there.

I am simply going to stay away from the negativity now - even if most posts come to by blog I am simply going to avoid them as I avoid negative people in my life

IMO, going to PA member’s websites and bad mouthing PA, then directing them to AW, will never convince them PA is not a reputable publisher. IMO, it will make AW look like its members do have sour grapes and some hidden agenda against PA, and the old timers on PAMB will reinforce that belief.

I think those posters to that PA member’s blog need to remember that NEPAT and all of its related threads are just a small portion of AW. A very important portion, but it is not what AW is all about.

[JimmyD1318]

I think those posters to that PA member’s blog need to remember that NEPAT and all of its related threads are just a small portion of AW. A very important portion, but it is not what AW is all about.


That's very true. This part of the board is just one small part of the whole board. But to me it is one of the most important parts of the forum. But you're right in the fact that it does no good to post in PA writers' guest-books on their website no matter how friendly you try to be. It will only drive them away and make them feel like we are the ones that are in the wrong.

[LloydBrown]

Where do they get the "sour grapes" from? How in the world could you possibly conclude that? Why would anybody be jealous of a PA author? What did you do that any 8-year-old couldn't?

[ccomer]

when I first came here to this board, I too felt negativity. I found that The negativity was that everyone was worried about me. well that is how I took it anyway. Everyone on this board has been real kind to me and expressed their own individual opinions. which is what "free speech" is all about. It is not so much what others say but how you, yourself, look at things in your life.
Yes, there were some that made me feel stupid, But they also made me take a look at myself and what I had done.
I have never had anyone write to me, unless I have written to them asking questions. I feel everyone that has answered my post have been helpful in some way.
Everyone here is grown up and need to think before they speak or post. well, I do anyway. But let me tell you, I have learned a lot in a short amount of time, thanks to this board. It made me go out into the world and look and listen.

[Rolling Thunder]

I usually follow the links to read comments but I never post one myself. Once they're in the jaws I figure they'll learn soon enough had badly they've been bitten. Even though I really hate to see it happen, they'll learn the truth eventually.

I think that's why so many of the old guard have left the PAMB. More people are wising up.


ETA: You'll do fine, CC. Just keep writing and submitting your work to good agents and publishers. It's a tough business but that's what makes it worthwhile. The challenge.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . I just wanted a regular sized paperback book priced at about $7.99 or less, not a huge trade paperback (not quite the size of hardcover). . . .
That price at retail requires a fairly large print run (probably tens of thousands) and economical overhead and distribution. The major contributor to the cost is not the dimensions of the book (page size), it is economies of scale. POD of course has no economies of scale--not for the book production itself. (And if sales were to be large enough for other economies of scale to kick in, than POD would make no sense and standard printing methods would be appropriate.)

That is why no commercial publisher that has to price books for the market can publish books that will not sell at least several thousand copies in fairly short order through established channels. And at that, print runs of only several thousand have to be balanced by books with print runs and sales in the many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands.

Although the numbers are of course long outdated, some will find of interest the table "Economies of Scale in Book Production" on p. 48 of Curtis G. Benjamin's A Candid Critique of Book PUblishing (Bowker, 1977). The picture painted by the table should still be reasonably representative. (Benjamin was a top executive of a prominent publisher, McGraw-Hill.) Anyway, in his example, average price per copy (remember, these are 1977 figures), declines from $11.30 for a print run of 1,000 copies to $1.15 for a print run of 25,000 copies (with the rate of decline tapering off after that, the figure falling to $0.77 per copy for print run of 100,000).

BTW, according to Benjamin (p. 49), "the average first printing [for McGraw-Hill] is currently [circa 1977] about 9,000 copies. while the median size is about 5,000 copies." I suspect that those figures are still reasonably typical, although numbers might have moved up a bit and would vary a lot depending on genre and publisher.

FWIW.

--Ken

[spike]

IMO, going to PA member’s websites and bad mouthing PA, then directing them to AW, will never convince them PA is not a reputable publisher. IMO, it will make AW look like its members do have sour grapes and some hidden agenda against PA, and the old timers on PAMB will reinforce that belief.

I think those posters to that PA member’s blog need to remember that NEPAT and all of its related threads are just a small portion of AW. A very important portion, but it is not what AW is all about.

I agree, particularly when the author is in the honeymoon phase. I gave up on those folks long ago. Just tell them that there is a chair waiting for them here at the water cooler when they want to visit.

I read the blog in question. Unfortunately, this author is primed for PA. She thought about using booksurge before she found PA. She previously signed with an agent that cost her money. She obviously believes that the commercial route is shut to her. So sad.

[James D. Macdonald]

Sometimes I suspect that the blog posts, the guestbook slime, and the Amazon slams are posted by Larry and Miranda in an effort to reinforce the us vs. them feeling and poison the PA well against AW.

It's been a long-standing policy of AW that if a slimer's IP matches that of an AW member that that member's continued membership here is in Grave Danger.

The "sour grapes" thing always makes me frantic. Didn't anyone ever read Aesop? The moral of The Fox and the Grapes (http://www.bartleby.com/17/1/31.html) is "It is easy to despise what you cannot get." The guy who says that "bookstores are terrible places to sell books" has sour grapes. Folks who say that getting published by PA isn't a big achievement don't have sour grapes.

[Queen of Swords]

For the average PA author, I'm guessing what matters most to them, what they value and what they therefore think others must value too, is the published book in their hands. Their own book, printed and bound, in their hands.

But that's not what I want. What I want is to be published by a solid, reputable publisher, to have my books in lots of stores without my having to cajole managers into carrying them, and to basically make a lot more money than $1. So how could I possibly have sour grapes when it comes to PA authors? All they've got that I haven't got are printed, bound copies of their books - and I could get any of mine done by Kinko's if I wanted.

[TwentyFour]

For the average PA author, I'm guessing what matters most to them, what they value and what they therefore think others must value too, is the published book in their hands. Their own book, printed and bound, in their hands.

But that's not what I want. What I want is to be published by a solid, reputable publisher, to have my books in lots of stores without my having to cajole managers into carrying them, and to basically make a lot more money than $1. So how could I possibly have sour grapes when it comes to PA authors? All they've got that I haven't got are printed, bound copies of their books - and I could get any of mine done by Kinko's if I wanted.
....and several have said they know PA is not as reputable as they claim, but they still want to be published by them...I don't get it? Some even admit they seen negatives before hand and decided it didn't matter.

[spike]

....and several have said they know PA is not as reputable as they claim, but they still want to be published by them...I don't get it? Some even admit they seen negatives before hand and decided it didn't matter.

That's because they believe that their book is a work of GENIUS. It doesn't matter if PA is a scam, because once people see how wonderful their book is, it will sell. All they need is to have it printed published printed and the public will fall all over themselves to buy it.

Look at all the posts on the PAMB where people are complaining that their second or third book was not picked up by PA. Notice how no one suggests that the book in question may be sub-par? How "writing a better book" never comes into discussion. No, it's always "sell more books!".

[Rolling Thunder]

<name omitted>, my first reaction was similar to yours because of all the negative stuff that I read, while researching PA. (I now believe that a lot of it is generated by the REAL vanity press/self publishing places, who are probably losing big bucks thanks to PA creating a place where you can be published at no cost to yourself. And also generated by ill-informed writers who expected the moon on a platter from PA and are sulking because they didn't get it.)
I hesitated until a friend told me that PA published her first book when no agent or publisher was interested. She has since gone on to seeing five of her novel series published by a major firm. And she still says, if she had a book her publisher didn't want, she'd not hesitate to submit it to PA. I trusted her and went ahead. I'm not sorry.
Although I've been writing and publishing with major magazines and newspapers for over 30 years, and continue to do so, it didn't count when it came to breaking into the novel field. PA was willing to give us all that chance. What we make of it, is up to us.

This is the type of blurb that fans the flame of misinformation to those who haven't done any research before signing with PA. Seriously; if you are having even small four figure advances sent to you for each book in a series why would you go back to PA for one buck? Of course, the name of the firm isn't divulged so it makes the entire statement ambiguous.

And discrediting writing credits over a 30 year span? That's just bizarre.

[Jersey Chick]

Look at all the posts on the PAMB where people are complaining that their second or third book was not picked up by PA. Notice how no one suggests that the book in question may be sub-par? How "writing a better book" never comes into discussion. No, it's always "sell more books!".

Y'know, I never even noticed that - how observant ;)

Now I'm wondering even more...

[TwentyFour]

it isn't your imagination.

A great big injustice has been done and it is effecting the whole board and the people here.

I pray that it can be corrected, very soon...

What happened on PAMB?

[Rolling Thunder]

Some light shines on that here:
http://authorsociety.proboards103.com/index.cgi?board=pubs&action=display&thread=1161063516&page=4

[spike]

Some light shines on that here:
http://authorsociety.proboards103.com/index.cgi?board=pubs&action=display&thread=1161063516&page=4

Interesting read. Sounds like a chapter from the Shemp debacle of a few years past.

[Rolling Thunder]

Yeah, it does spell out a lot.

Oh, and you behave over there, agent78. :)

I'll look around over there a little in my spare time, but I doubt I'll join. There are other forums besides PA that might be interesting for regular topics. But with only 47 members and a note in the nitty gritty forum about declining activity on that board it's struggling.

I was a little surprised to see Jeff 'wave' at PA in such a capricious manner.

[brianm]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19964&start=30

I think PA is changing a lot. Most of the compaints I read about were from 2004 on Preditors and Editors website. That was before I signed with PA. I figured if the compaints were that old, they had to of changed. Since I have signed with them, I don't see anything wrong with the company at all. I'm very pleased with how my book turned out and so are the people buying them.

This is another example of someone refusing to accept that they have made a big mistake by signing with PA. She must have been overwhelmed by all of the information on P&E after 2004, and it caused the hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil syndrome to kick in. For those lurkers unaware of P&E, here’s the link. Judge for yourself the volume of information about PA after 2004.

http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebp.htm

[James D. Macdonald]

I figured if the compaints were that old, they had to of changed.

And that, my friends, is why we keep this thread open.

[spike]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20383
I think this is telling (and sad). The title of the post is "PA is Awesome":

Once again, PA has done a remarkable in ensuring their authors meet their obligations. I had to place an order for books this past Monday for one of the book signings I was had this past weekend. As I was placing the order I asked if I would get the books before Friday because if I was not going to get them, it would have turn out to be very bad. I was told I should get them Friday but they could not predict how fast UPS would deliver. To my surprise, the books were delivered on Thursday two days prior to the event. Both events were very successful. http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

I really do appreciate their efforts and as always, I’m glad I chose PA as my publisher. Many thanks to PA and to my author friends, PA is truly doing their best to accommodate our needs so let us make sure we are doing our part to make our journey a successful one.


This guy is singing the PA praises because they delivered his books when they said. How low are these people's standards? This should not qualify as "awesome". It should be business as usual.

On the same thread:

Some people don't realize that what they are getting out of PA is truly fantastic! Those bad apples that were mentioned earlier don't see what they are getting out of them which you would have to pay a pretty penny for other publishers and probably get less. PA is a great place for beginners and proud authors alike.

This is really sad. Do they think ALL publishers are vanity?

[James D. Macdonald]

which you would have to pay a pretty penny for [with] other publishers....

What? Did PA send those books for that signing for free? Or did the author who was singing their praises have to plunk down cash in advance?

This is really sad. Do they think ALL publishers are vanity?

Yes.

[triceretops]

Money, just had to exchange hands on that. PA accomodates quickly when credit card numbers come over their line. I've never heard of PA providing anything gratis. I'm pretty sure that author had to shell out for that order and, if he did, that is some preposterous azz kissing going on there, because that is the atmosphere that PA fosters.

Translation: "Thank you for letting me spend a huge chunk of money on my own books and getting them to me on time, for a signing you had nothing to do with."

I read through the platitudes. I've never seen such fear evoked from authors, who speak so softly about real publishing problems in one breath, and yet with the other, exclaim that the world is their oyster because PA is leading them into the light. It seems every post has a disclaimer.

I'm reminded of the Adam Sandler movie Waterboy, where Adam's got his sights on one of the opposing team players, and is about to tackle him.

"Oh, please don't hurt me!"

No author, writer, or scribbler should ever be made to feel degraded or in danger of being banned, or their book pulled. Yet, PA excells at this psycho warfare.

I would say that most of the oldtime PA authors have donned the Stepford Scribe face for reasons of convienence--they are not stupid or ignorant--no PA author is or ever has been. They spew the mantra because it is the safe thing to do. Nothing on earth could hurt more than having your book discontinued and wiped from the earth, especially when they believe that their dreams DID come true. Infoblow represents the egg shells they must lightly trod over every day. Any post is at risk of waking the sleeping giant (who always has one eye open), and the risk is just too great.

I've been reading the PA board for years now. I've truly come to understand and even adore a lot of people over there. Some of my favorites are now here at AW. It never fails to amaze how these people are always at our newbie thread, spreading good tidings and welcoming everyone into the fold. PA authors are truly one of our most precious resources, if we are only reminded that we too were once new and trusting, and many of us (myself included) could have been collared in the same trap.

I'm sure we keep up the good fight because we do love those people over there. I hope one day they'll realize that.

My fight is with PA. I believe that the two men, Larry and Willy, set down the rules and foundation, and act more like silent partners in the business.
I've always belived that handing the reigns over to Moe was like pouring gasoline on a bonfire.

There has been a small exodus lately. Things are not looking good there. Some of the old guard, which were fairly new not long ago, are swearing off the PA message board. Sure, we've seen it before--it does remind me of the Shemb fiasco. But...it is getting more frequent now, if you've been following it.

Change your ways PA. You're being consumed by your own blaze.

Tri

[brianm]

I've never heard of PA providing anything gratis.

According to this old timer, the french woman, she got 21 of her books for free. The last time she posted this info, PA removed it from PAMB. She has over 14,000 posts and vehemently supports PA. Who says the old timers aren't getting paid or getting kick backs for making sure the public board is pro PA?



http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20383

David you are absolutely right, besides which I can attest to their good business sense and honesty! A few weeks ago anticipating my workshop reading here in Boca Raton at the local Library yesterday...I ordered some of my cookbooks (which was the subject ) but when the package got here, imagine my surprise when I found they had sent me my memoir "Le Cafe' de Cadix" instead!! So I called them and after some verification of my order, and their apologies... they send me the same amount of cookbooks FREE! You can't do better then that David!
So when I say that "A book from P.A is like the gift that keeps on giving.." I am very close to the truth n'est ce pas!

This woman, the pipe smoker, and lounge chair man dole out more baloney about the publishing business, and the merits of PA, than Oscar Meyer produces in an entire year.

[zizban]

This woman, the pipe smoker, and lounge chair man dole out more baloney about the publishing business, and the merits of PA, than Oscar Meyer produces in an entire year.

I would not be surprised if they got free book from PA in return for their loyalty. The pipe smoker should know better; he is a combat vetern and had a small career in mystery writing going before he got involved with PA.

[Rolling Thunder]

XXXXX, remember that POD also stands for "print on demand" PublishAmerica does not "publish on demand". If store managers or owners mention this to you... set them straight.

This would make sense, if you were dealing with 'PrintAmerica'.

[stormie]

According to this old timer, the french woman, she got 21 of her books for free. The last time she posted this info, PA removed it from PAMB. She has over 14,000 posts and vehemently supports PA. Who says the old timers aren't getting paid or getting kick backs for making sure the public board is pro PA?

This woman, the pipe smoker, and lounge chair man dole out more baloney about the publishing business, and the merits of PA, than Oscar Meyer produces in an entire year.
I have to agree. It's like they're the three-person cheering squad, making sure everyone on those boards gets brain-washed. If not, :e2zipped:

Why else would those three do that with so much enthusiasm?

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

If I remember correctly, the French woman everyone is jabbering about was from South Africa - and moved to the United States when the all White Government was tossed out. Tracy and I have had our own run-in’s with her when we were active on the PAMB’s.

The PAM’s are littered with clicks. A group of them have been attending sleep-over cook-outs at one of their author’s friends house in VA, for two years now.

It would be great if the members of AW could gather in one place during the Summer and have a face-to-face conversation. I understand the logistical problems and the financial aspects of this idea.

PublishAmerica often rewards their most outspoken cheerleaders with free books. H.B. Marcus was a perfect example of their mentality. He also had a Webcast radio program. I don’t know what happened to that program. I believe that since he “killed-off” his pen-name, and his contract(s) were cancelled with PublishAmerica, the radio program went the way of the wind as well. This is truly speculation on my part.

Gary Rogers

[Saundra Julian]

I was once in constant communication with one of those three. I emailed this lady and told her PA was a scam. She responded that she knew it but they did all she wanted them to do...Her exact words..."I wasn't born yesterday, Saundra!"

Why does she continue her support? The PAMB is a hugh part of her life and she loved the admiration she gets there.

[spike]

It would be great if the members of AW could gather in one place during the Summer and have a face-to-face conversation. I understand the logistical problems and the financial aspects of this idea.



Gary Rogers

See this thread:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58856

[CatSlave]

This woman, the pipe smoker, and lounge chair man dole out more baloney about the publishing business, and the merits of PA, than Oscar Meyer produces in an entire year.
At least with Oscar Meyer you know when you're being given the weenie.

[CatSlave]

I would not be surprised if they got free book from PA in return for their loyalty. The pipe smoker should know better; he is a combat vetern and had a small career in mystery writing going before he got involved with PA.Did his newest book get rejected by PA? Some of the chat over there seems to indicate it. I could be mistaken...

[Jersey Chick]

From PAMB

I agree! I recieved my very first order today just like they said I would! Does anyone know if PA is just a moral company or are the Christian based???

I'd be interested in seeing if this was still this poster's feeling a year or so from now?

[stormie]

Did his newest book get rejected by PA? Some of the chat over there seems to indicate it. I could be mistaken...
If that's the case, it's probably because he didn't cough up the money for the 50--or is it 75--books they have to buy.

[Jersey Chick]

I think it was his first book to PA that was rejected, but don't quote me on that ;)

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Saundra Julian:

The French woman that you speak of is elderly and the on-line life keeps her in good health and spirits. I can only speak from my own experiences with elderly people, that is, if the PAMB and the cook-outs keep her on on planet Earth - not succumbing to the grip of the Spirit In The Sky - so be it.

On the other hand, “absolute power corrupts absolutly” and she uses that power to control the PAMB’s. She is the first one to “pipe-up” when she feels that one of her “dear-ones” is being mistreated; and usually gets her facts wrong (I called her on a few inconsistent facts about a controversial topic).

May she “live long and prosper”.

Gary Rogers

[Saundra Julian]

I understand that, Gary. Just putting in my .02...I also wish her good health and a long life!

[PVish]

From http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20408
I just found out today from a friend that they ordered two copies of my book over a month ago. They recieved one copy and called to inquire in regards to the other and they were told the order was canceled by the vendor... B&N.

Its hard enough trying to make sales on your own but to have someone interested in buying your book and then they cancel the order!?

B&N sucks.

So, it's B&N's fault that PA didn't send the order? Uh. . . .

[spike]

From http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20408


So, it's B&N's fault that PA didn't send the order? Uh. . . .

Of course it's the bookstore's fault. Don't you know bookstores are the worst place to sell your books?

And didn't you know that there is a conspiracy between the big publishers and bookstores to keep PA books from the customers?

Did I miss any of excuses not to blame PA?

[Jersey Chick]

Of course it's the bookstore's fault. Don't you know bookstores are the worst place to sell your books?

And didn't you know that there is a conspiracy between the big publishers and bookstores to keep PA books from the customers?

Did I miss any of excuses not to blame PA?


Umm... let's see.... nope, I can't think of any others...

I have to admit, I am still baffled by the thought of only 25% of books being sold through bookstores... there's a Borders, a Walden, and Barnes & Noble, all within a mile of each other and they all seem to be thriving...

is it just me?

[spike]

Umm... let's see.... nope, I can't think of any others...

I have to admit, I am still baffled by the thought of only 25% of books being sold through bookstores... there's a Borders, a Walden, and Barnes & Noble, all within a mile of each other and they all seem to be thriving...

is it just me?

The problem with statistics is that people throw them around without defining terms. I have a feeling that the sales are not all retail.

Are they counting text books? Or even library books? Books printed and sold for a closed market, such as corporate training? I work for a large school district, and you would not believe the amount of books we go through each year. Technical books which were never intended for bookstores?

For all we know, they could be counting everything with an isbn number.

[James D. Macdonald]

They are counting everything with an ISBN, including bound copies of the annual report from the Board of Fisheries.

[Jersey Chick]

I wonder if they're counting self-published books by other vanity presses as well - that would have to inflate that baffling number, wouldn't it? (and so would selling out of one's car trunk, hmm...)

[LloydBrown]

I wonder if they're counting self-published books by other vanity presses as well - that would have to inflate that baffling number, wouldn't it? (and so would selling out of one's car trunk, hmm...)

"All books with an ISBN" includes books by vanity publishers.

[Jersey Chick]

"All books with an ISBN" includes books by vanity publishers.

I know - but they wouldn't be sold through bookstores... I was more or less thinking out loud. (and apparently having a blonde moment as well :) ) but that would inflate their "stats", as compared to a Harlequin doing some sort of bookstores vs other venues poll.

[spike]

I know - but they wouldn't be sold through bookstores... I was more or less thinking out loud. (and apparently having a blonde moment as well :) ) but that would inflate their "stats", as compared to a Harlequin doing some sort of bookstores vs other venues poll.

And that is why you need to question statistics presented without definitions.

[Jersey Chick]

Absolutely... I'd love to see how this data was compiled...

[Rolling Thunder]

XXXX, I sure would not want you to teach me either math or how to do my due dilligence. There are over 12,000 books on the topic of Autism, on amazon.com many have been written by people with more consanants after ther name than I have letters in mine. As to the subject of adult autism, there are almost 700 books on the subject on amazon.com, you book being one of them. Your book is neither special nor unique in the eyes of the purchasing public. When the honeymoon phase is over and your friends, immediate circle and family have bought all the copies they had been guilted into (we all did the same thing) Then if you are not careful your sales will dry up as fast as they had first come.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=231470#231470

I posted the quote (since I don't see it lasting) and the thread link. This is a sad case. The person I quoted is catching on, but the others haven't yet.

[stormie]

Amazing. That post is still up. Any bets on how long it will last?!

[Sparhawk]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=231470#231470

I posted the quote (since I don't see it lasting) and the thread link. This is a sad case. The person I quoted is catching on, but the others haven't yet.

Perhaps it's time to pull out another chair at the AW coffee table. Someone seems to be buying a clue, always a dangerous thing on the PAMB

[triceretops]

Apparently the book is a straight memoir, or biography of her husband's desease. That's okay, I believe. But I would think that a regular publisher would want more of a platform in writing about this topic. The author even admits to being confused about the subject, and wished to put it in laymen's terms for the general reading public. You've got to be very careful with non-fiction books that involve medicine and other core sciences--they require bona fide knowledge, and at least some type of celebrity noteriety, with pre-published articles or speaking engagements. Platform is everything here. I still wish her well with that book signing.

Tri

[triceretops]

Yeah, that poster is very new (according to post counts) and is in extreme danger of being banned and having his book pulled for making such truthful comments.

Tri

[zizban]

That's one sad thread.

[ResearchGuy]

They are counting everything with an ISBN, including bound copies of the annual report from the Board of Fisheries.
My more-or-less former employer, a state government agency, published reports with ISBNs. But we never sold them. And as far as I know, no one ever reported how many were distributed in print or via website downloads.

It would be interesting to know what goes into the statistics and precisely what the sources are. But folks need to keep in mind that books are sold not only in trade bookstores (B&N and the like, as well as independents), but by way of:

--Book clubs (Literary Guild, Scientific American Book Club, and many more)
--Warehouse stores (Costco and so on)
--Grocery stores, convenience stores, and so on
--Direct sales by publishers, including vast numbers to public and private schools and school districts, as well as sales to government agencies and organizations (training and reference books used by firefighting agencies, to cite one example I am familiar with)
--College bookstores (large market, perhaps not counted in general bookstore sales)
--Newsstands (in airports, for example)
--Book fairs (at schools, and perhaps sometimes at libraries and other public places -- the Books Are Fun temporary locations, for example)
--By speakers, lecturers, and teachers (for example, Learning Exchange and the like), "from the back of the room" (those numbers can add up, by the way)
--By visiting authors at school and library events (I know authors who specialize in those sorts of events and sales, getting paid not only a fee for the presentation but also for books sold at the event)
--Crafts and fabric stores (Joann's, for example)
--Hobby shops, and stamp and coin stores (not that there are many stamp stores left)
--Art-supply stores
--Coffee shops (Starbucks is the best known, but probably not the only one)
--Via magazine and newspaper ads (especially in publications targeted to special interests, such as guns, model airplanes, health and fitness)
--Via direct mail advertising (Rodale sells a lot of books that way)
--By authors via websites and other means (I have bought books by professional writers, published by large commercial publishers, at authors' speaking engagements, for example)
--By authors at regional events (one author-publisher of my acquaintance sells as many as 500 books per weekend at such events, and his total sales have run well into the tens of thousands, probably well over 100,000 by now)
--Via souvenir shops (every area of any size or interest has local-interest books offered in local-interest stores aimed at tourists)
--Via museum stores (the California History Museum, for example, has an attached store with books and memorabilia, as does the California Railroad Museum, both in Sacramento)
--By subscription (Library of America, anyone? I have about 110 volumes in that series myself; Time-Life used to sell tons of books by subscription, and might reenter that business some day; Harlequin sells paperbacks by subscription in at least a couple of categories, four books sent out about 17 times a year to subscribers; etc.)

I have probably omitted several venues. Heck, even liquor stores might carry a few paperbacks, and maybe a hardbound bar guide or two.

--Ken

[Sparhawk]

That's one sad thread.


http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20383 yeah, but this one's even worse. I weep for the decieved, I hope they don't spend too much money buying thier own books. The elder Stateslady of PA chimes right in downing several shots of Kool-Aide with the throngs of newbie faithful.

Through all of it PA's bank account gets fatter and the wallets of these poor authors gets drastically thinner. PA sent out a shipment and it arrived on time.. the guy's practically grovelling about it. Teh last post is particuarly fristrating the poster dropped a bundle on books and is thanking PA cuz now she has books for her booksigning. AAAUUUUGGGGHHHHHH !!!!!!!! <<BANGS HEAD ON DESK>>. WIll she be weeping when she never sees a royalty against her self purchase. PA made a huge profit free and clear and they're all singing the PAvidian praise mantra.

[xhouseboy]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20383 yeah, but this one's even worse.



From that thread:

Does anyone know if PA is just a moral company or are the(y) Christian based.


Oh please... too much. They're con artists printing out the attachment you send to them and selling it back at you at an exorbitant price. Why don't you get that?

What's that old saying about the devil... the biggest trick he ever pulled is convincing us he didn't exist... or something like that.

Seems PA's pulled an even bigger one among its faithful.

[TwentyFour]

A lot of authors from PAMB are talking about this Pop My Book thing, I have never googled a book and found any PopCurrent listing about it. I think it's a waste of their time. Amazon will tell you exactly what a book is about and if you want to read it then, go for it.

[Sassenach]

The OP is the same guy who claimed to be in a restaurant and ran into 9 people who had copies of his book.

[CatSlave]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=19964&start=30&sid=a4766bdd3dab2e0b23f0fd5b8fe6daea

PA once told me that the "magic number" of 500 was only ONE of the criteria they look for. If the author purchased all 500 books, rather than having many bookstores sell, schools or libraries stock them, etc, across the nation or internationally - this will effect their decision as well. They look for an effective marketing plan with proven results. They look for books that have a wide audience. Books and authors that stand the test of time, past the "honeymoon period" (the first year after the book release date), will have a better chance of receiving backing from PA.

However, they never did explain exactly what they offer in this special program, so I can't help you out there. But you are right in so far as the number - 500. I have never heard from any author on this forum since 2004 (when I joined the forum) that has been a part of this program.

Perhaps a PA staff person would respond and let us know more...

Buy 500 books yourself and it's guaranteed they'll gladly *print* your second book.
No problem.

[Rolling Thunder]

I saw that one earlier and the 'backing from PA' caught my eye. What backing?

[Queen of Swords]

Well, the happy author who wrote, "I love attention and I'm getting PLENTY of it! God is all over this thing!" is now the less than happy author who started the thread saying she would be losing money once she bought the books from PA (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=231470#231470) and sold them at the store.

It doesn't last very long for most people, does it?

[James D. Macdonald]

500 books was the threshold for the old "Independence Books" program. Look around the boards here for more about that.

[zizban]

PA has been nothing but Great! I think people come into the PA family expecting to just write the book! That is all you're supposed to do according to the contract but if you want it to be a success you have to get out there a WORK! You can't be shy about it either. You need to tell EVERYONE! I would not have sold 97 books if I would not have been out there telling everyone! Thanks to the Author discount I now have books for booksignings! Wow, I Love PA!

97 books! Be still my beating heart!

[triceretops]

We know the magic number is not 73. It just might be, as unc has stated before, 75 copies that ding the magic bell.

Years ago the discount was 50% for 50 books. I think it is now 40% and they have to buy 65 books. The library registration has also jumped from $30 to $45. Feel free to correct me.

PA just keeps getting more expensive as time goes on, aside from the library reg, who set those standards

Tri

[ResearchGuy]

. . . The library registration has also jumped from $30 to $45. Feel free to correct me.
. . .
Registration of copyright is now $45 (plus two copies of the book). But that fee is set by the Copyright Office (or maybe by law), not PA.

No real publisher expects its authors to register their own copyrights. In fact, real publishers are required to deposit two copies of each book they publish with the Library of Congress, which can be done via the copyright registration process (if I recall correctly -- www.copyright.gov (http://www.copyright.gov) for details). Some real publishers have shirked that responsibility (I believe Harlequin was in a flap about it a few years ago), but it is still the law. By its own contract terms PA shouts that it is an imposter.

--Ken

[brianm]

I can’t help myself. I had to post this off PAMB. It is from the thread entitled, “Are We Shooting Ourselves in the Foot?”

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20259

The statistics that I quoted from were taken from "How to Upset a Goliath Book Biz" by Willem Meiners. This book is offered on the front page of PublishAmerica website. Just so you know, Mr. Meiners is CEO of publishamerica so he would be considered a very liable souce. That book is excellent and will provide you with a lot of information about the book industy.

Bit of a Freudian slip?

We already know Willem is liable for everything this scamming company does, but I never knew he was a liable drunk.

Okay, I know the word was spelled wrong, but I found it amusing.:D

[ccomer]

All you people that can get in and read the post on PA board are one up on me. I got my rights back this week and as soon as I go to front page, I am banned.



www.freewebs.com/ccomer

[TwentyFour]

I can’t help myself. I had to post this off PAMB. It is from the thread entitled, “Are We Shooting Ourselves in the Foot?”

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20259



Bit of a Freudian slip?

We already know Willem is liable for everything this scamming company does, but I never knew he was a liable drunk.

Okay, I know the word was spelled wrong, but I found it amusing.:D
Actually liable can mean both "likely, prone, or apt" or "responsible".

[Sheryl Nantus]

I can’t help myself. I had to post this off PAMB. It is from the thread entitled, “Are We Shooting Ourselves in the Foot?”

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20259



Bit of a Freudian slip?

We already know Willem is liable for everything this scamming company does, but I never knew he was a liable drunk.

Okay, I know the word was spelled wrong, but I found it amusing.:D


isn't this sort of like quoting the mugger who just took your wallet and told you it was a way of "stabilizing the economy?"

:D

[brianm]

Actually liable can mean both "likely, prone, or apt" or "responsible".

Which would make him likely, prone or apt to be drunk or pickled. :D

[James D. Macdonald]

That's a sad thread.

The guy with major sour grapes about getting shelved in bookstores says:

"Maybe you have not examined what the cost are involved in putting your book in a bookstore. The bookstore receives a standard discount on your book of around 40%. So if your book retails for $17.95 the bookstore then purchase the book for $10.77. Your oryalty is 8% of the selling price which is the price that PA sells your book for.

8% of 10.77 is a whopping .87cents. You spent more than that in gas alone, not to mention having to purchase and pay for the flyers that they require and then supply them with bookmarks so they can give them to the customers. You would have to sell hundreds of copies just to turn a nice profit from your endeavors.

Okay, yeah. I don't make flyers, far less supply them to bookstores, nor do I make bookmarks. Neither should you. And let's see: $0.87, times three copies sold per bookstore (assuming they order 5 copies each and you get a 60% sell-through), times 8,000 bookstores (about half the bookstores in the US) comes to: $20,880. Will that buy you a tank of gas, my friend?

It may be true that 75% of books are sold outside of bookstores. Planning to break into the book clubs? Good luck with that. Is the Texas State School System going to buy your books? No? How about libraries? Planning on a lot of library sales? Are you going to get your books on the wire-rack spinners down at the bus station? Listen to me: Meiner's book is full of self-serving nonsense. Among commercial books (that is to say, books like yours), around two-thirds (60%) are sold in bookstores. Only about 10% are sold on-line (and among those sold on-line, 95% of the titles are the same ones that are stocked in bookstores -- your book on-line will be fighting it out with the other titles that aren't stocked in bookstores, for 5% of 10%, that is, for 0.5% of the sales).

Sure, you could refuse to buy books from any store that refuses to stock your books. What that'll work out to is that you won't be able to buy books from bookstores. Is that what you want? (It's called "cutting off your nose to spite your face.")

[spike]

You need to be seen in the store often, leave your stuff often, etc. I received a call after I had been turned down previously to participate in their local author's night. Then I was told to bring my own books, they would sell them and take 20% of the profit. Yet, they ordered books for the other authors who were not either self-published or PA. I was invited..............that's a step in.

Topic was booksignings. Emphasis mine. http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20347

You have to wonder if these people ever ask why? Why wouldn't the bookstore order for everyone except PA and self published? Doesn't this tell them something about their "publisher"? That other publishers provide support, in the forms of a reasonable discount and return policy, that PA doesn't.

[zizban]

It should but in the twisted PA universe the likely be "The big houses and Barnes and Noble fear us, that's all!"

[JimmyD1318]

It should but in the twisted PA universe the likely be "The big houses and Barnes and Noble fear us, that's all!"


Yep! It's the whole 'us against everyone else' feeling they have.

[e.dashwood]

Have you ever wondered why it is that well known entertainment industry personalities and politicians seem to get large advances for writing a book? Let’s face it; most entertainment personalities can’t complete a complete sentence unless it is written on a queue-card. But, they do have money and can buy a little fame by bribing any publisher that is willing to make a fast dollar. And, they sell to all those fans that get great joy telling their friends, “I have Brittany’s book.”

With politicians, it is all about dodging the campaign finance laws. Politicians are prohibited by federal campaign finance laws from receiving more than $2000.00 from a single contributor. But, let’s say some big money dude like G.S. wants to donate millions of dollars to Candidate H’s political slush fund. So, he and candidate H get together and work out a plan to funnel a nice lump of money to H’s campaign treasure chest. That allows G.S. to get off the hook for making an illegal campaign contribution.

Candidate H agrees to write a book, or have one ghost written about her/him, but the anticipated sales of the book won’t provide nearly the kind of money the candidate desires. The candidate needs a publisher that will provide a large advance in “anticipation” of future sales and which won’t have to be paid back if the book sales don’t meet desired goals. So G.S. goes to a book publisher and makes a deal. He, being the wonderful philanthropist that he is, writes a check to the publisher for twelve million dollars, which they agree will be used to pay H an advance on her/his book. There is nothing wrong with financing a book business deal. The publisher is now assured it won’t lose on the deal. The publisher then writes a ten million dollar advance check to H, money that is now free from the restraints of federal campaign finance laws.

G.S. now owns a politician, H is happy with her/his political donation (oops, read that “book advance”), and the book publisher just made two million on the deal..


And it was LBJ on the grassy knoll.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20461

[spike]

And it was LBJ on the grassy knoll.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20461

I read that one and it made my head explode.

[Ken Schneider]

"I suspect the "no POD" review policies are driven in large part on fear of a backlash from the publishing establishment."

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20461


I suspect that it is driven by a, "print anyone who comes down the pike mentality."

[zizban]

I read that one and it made my head explode.

I just read it and its so wrong and so dellusional that i can't even think where to begin.

[zizban]

First of all I want any responses to be civil. I am posting this after dealing with many different elements while selling and promoting my books. My detrmination is that the book business is rapidly transforming itself into one that does not control its own destiny.

I dont see that. More worrisome is the bottom line the big companies that own Random House, et al, are concerned with that is squeezing the entire industry.

I dare say that it is becoming an offshoot business of other mediums. Notables in other fields view books as a quick revenue generator from their fan bases and publishers do as well. Non book specialist retailers use books as loss leaders to draw people in to shop for other goods.

Some view it as revenue generators; the Star Trek books are a good example but for most houses their books are their revnue, period. Non book specialists dont use books as a loss leader, they use them to cimpliment other things in their store; a store that caters to Hummel figures, for instance, will carry books about Hummels.

Most of these are self inflicted wounds by the traditionalists in this business who are failing to capitalize on a hidden gold mine to make themselves relevant again. Who are the traditionalists: Big retail book chains, large newspapers and the publishers themselves.

"traditionalists" as in people who want to sell good quality books people will buy. And what is this hidden gold mine? POD vanity presses? hardly.

Major newspapers won't review POD/Self Published authors and at the same time book review editors lament their budgets shrinking or the book review sections going away altogether. Most book review sections I see now are a collection of reviews from outside reviewers or review services. The book editor does nothing more that decide which third party reviews will be printed. What's their value if they only place stock reviews.

"review services" never heard of those. My paper syndicates reviews from the New York Times and has a part time reviewing books by local authors (from small, local presses, never a PA book). My paper doesn't have "a book editor" but has a lifestyle editor.

A real value would be to come up with undiscovered gems from self published/POD authors that you can't find in every grocery store or discount chain. Why that is not a weekly mission baffles me. It would pump some life into the busines and make those sectons relevant again. What happened to a reviewer presenting the next new big talent to the world.

PA doesn't promote their books at all; their is no way even the NYTimes reviewer will know about your book unless you send him a copy. "Pump life"; last time I checked book review sections in any paper I've read are alive and kicking.

The big retailers should feel required to offer a forum for POD/self published authors as they continue to drive out independent bookstores. When an idependent closes, the open arms they had for new authors is replaced by the often closed door of the major corporate chain. The independent store and authors needed each other, the big chains are almost just the retail arm of the publishers and their policies almost directly reflect that defacto status.

"Feel required"? Why? Because they wont stock your PA book? No independent bookstore I know will stock a PA book, even from a local author. The big chains and the publishers are in a symbiotic relationship, they do need each other but are hardly "just the retail arm of the publishers"

The publishers stall technological advancement. The recording industry fought the digital music wave until it left without them. Now artists marvel at how much they make off of ring tone downloads. Ebooks should be big by now but the fear of a loss of control and how to keep the revenue going into the same pockets hold it back.

Apples to oranges. There is nothing wrong with the technology, many small presses use POD. The problem comes to scale; printing one book on a POD machine costs the same as printing 5,000. With an offset press it is the opposite, that's why it is still used. It's cheaper, faster, better. Digital music is an entirely different model with different rules than book publishing.

eBooks aren't big for a couple of reasons; first of all, there just isn't any device out there that makes reading an eBook anything like reading a paperback. Second, people still prefer a book they can hold in their hands, smell the pages, etc. eBooks have a place and someday might be a larger portion of the book business but it isn't there, yet.

eBooks can be controlled via DRM, so there is no loss of control. Most eBook publishers don't bother with DRM because it inhibits growth in the very field they are trying to grow. My publisher is an eBook place and it offers a variety of formats, with no DRM, even down to html pages.

I think something has to give, with all of the PA authors, self published and POD books out there it is like a dam holding back a mighty river. How all of this writing and publishing activity goes on almost in the shadows of the public is mind boggling. The general public does not care how the book is produced. Not one person buying my books at signings have asked, "Is it POD?" they buy because they like the story.

That's the key: IF they can find your book on a shelf they may like the story and buy the book. But they can't find the book! Thats your mighty dam: no publicity, shoddy discounts.

The question becomes how do we lift the veil off of this fractured segment of the publishing business and expose it to the reading public. We are all swinging our individual hammer, but what will it take to have this part of the business "break through"?

The veil has been lifted and its not a pretty sight. Tell PA to take notes from Tor books. That will make a breakthrough and make 10,999 happy PA authors unhappy as their books are rejected.

[CatSlave]

It’s about money folks. It is not about publishing quality literature or enhancing the reading pleasure of literate people.

You probably already noted that this discussion is among the established and revered PAvidian upper eschelon. No wonder the newbies are blinded by the light. Unbelievable.

[James D. Macdonald]

Why hasn't the general public turned to self-published books with glad cries?

Because no one reads slush for fun.

[Popeyesays]

Why hasn't the general public turned to self-published books with glad cries?

Because no one reads slush for fun.

People DO read slush for fun. But nobody is going to BUY slush to read for fun.

It seems to me if the PA authors feel there books are the coming wave why don't they band together and ALL buy the same book each month.

Then they could claim that a 'growing number' of PA books are getting sales in the tens of thousands, that might get that particular book stocked in bookstores for a little while anyway, til the returns come back, though they might actually generate some sales.

Regards,
Scott

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't think that they'd get sales in the tens of thousands, because my guess is that of the 20,000 happy authors in excess of 15,000 wish today that they'd never heard the name "PublishAmerica."

[BenPanced]

The big retailers should feel required to offer a forum for POD/self published authors as they continue to drive out independent bookstores. When an idependent closes, the open arms they had for new authors is replaced by the often closed door of the major corporate chain. The independent store and authors needed each other, the big chains are almost just the retail arm of the publishers and their policies almost directly reflect that defacto status."Feel required"? Why? Because they wont stock your PA book? No independent bookstore I know will stock a PA book, even from a local author. The big chains and the publishers are in a symbiotic relationship, they do need each other but are hardly "just the retail arm of the publishers"
Again, I see that sense of entitlement, like being "published" by PA puts them in the same league as STEPHEN KING and JOHN GRISHAM and all the other authors who'd been rejected countless times and/or self-pubbed before Making It Big (depending on your mythology), thereby requiring B&N, Borders, etc., to sell their books. Just because your product is out there doesn't mean anybody is obligated to sell it, especially once they get a load of the terms offered by the manufacturer. But then, we get into the circular logic of "bookstores don't sell books, but I demand they sell mine" and I have to step off the ride at that point.

[Popeyesays]

I don't think that they'd get sales in the tens of thousands, because my guess is that of the 20,000 happy authors in excess of 15,000 wish today that they'd never heard the name "PublishAmerica."

You're probably right.

I noted some folks on another board bemoaning those folks who post against PA by saying "who are these people, and they don't care about my book."

I thought well who should care about their book? Certainly the publisher should and a publisher shows that care by investing in the book and expecting that investment to pay off in public sales.

PA obviously doesn't care about anybody's book because they invest literally nothing more than the set-up cost and the ISBN#. That's because they expect no one to buy it but the author. They simply don't put their money where their is.

Regards,
Scott

[CatSlave]

There are many rewards that come with having a book published by P.A.-- they take time however but that is the reason I always say: "A book from P.A is like the gift that keeps on giving." You'll see http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Like herpes.

[xhouseboy]

Have you ever wondered why it is that well known entertainment industry personalities and politicians seem to get large advances for writing a book? ....

.... He, being the wonderful philanthropist that he is, writes a check to the publisher for twelve million dollars, which they agree will be used to pay H an advance on her/his book. There is nothing wrong with financing a book business deal. The publisher is now assured it won’t lose on the deal. The publisher then writes a ten million dollar advance check to H, money that is now free from the restraints of federal campaign finance laws.

G.S. now owns a politician, H is happy with her/his political donation (oops, read that “book advance”), and the book publisher just made two million on the deal..


This is what happens when you run out of straws to clutch at.

[brianm]

Title of PAMB thread, “Open call for comments on the "Book" business!”

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20461&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

I must say that reading these posts is quite an eye opener. With things stacked against us as they are, perhaps a change in direction would be the best course of action. Would we find the same circumstances if we wrote screen plays?

:e2thud:

If you aren't successful writing a book then it must be easier, much easier, getting a screenplay read and picked up by a major motion picture company. Hey, no one is doing that these days, are they? Oh wait, there is a “famous” PA book being made into a movie. It’s called “Vortex of Revelation”.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49795

Be sure to catch the trailer. I watch it whenever I need a good laugh. It's post #12 in the above thread.

[CatSlave]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20473

http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=232000&sid=06e5ff56a599ca1bf0b640ecb50a1239#232000)Posted : Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: It's All Worked Out! Thank you Jesus!

I went to my first book signing store and talked to the lady in charge. My sweet dear autistic husband...wrote everything out for me. We showed her on paper how I was losing money. She said, "No business can go very long losing money. I'll just raise the price." I have decided for the first time I am going to pocket the money from just this book signing. I will make $11.07 per book and it costs me $10.97 per book to order. So, if I recycle the earnings I make in order to get more books for book signings like I have so far I would only make 10 cents which is a lot better than losing $2.00 per book. I figure as hard as we have been working to sell the books we deserved to reap some of the benefits.

[Rolling Thunder]

Yes, but she saw it coming days ago, too:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20418

[DeadlyAccurate]

If you aren't successful writing a book then it must be easier, much easier, getting a screenplay read and picked up by a major motion picture company.

Well, everyone knows movies are much cheaper to produce than books. Why, I bet a movie like Pirates of the Caribbean only cost a couple thousand bucks to produce.

So G.S. goes to a book publisher and makes a deal. He, being the wonderful philanthropist that he is, writes a check to the publisher for twelve million dollars, which they agree will be used to pay H an advance on her/his book. There is nothing wrong with financing a book business deal. The publisher is now assured it won’t lose on the deal. The publisher then writes a ten million dollar advance check to H, money that is now free from the restraints of federal campaign finance laws.

Wow. Did this person just flat out make this up, or are they claiming they actually read this somewhere?

[James D. Macdonald]

Wow. Did this person just flat out make this up, or are they claiming they actually read this somewhere?

That's more nonsense out of the We-Hate-Hillary camp. No one could possibly have wanted to publish her book, and no one could possibly have wanted to read it, so therefore it must have been an elaborate way to bribe her. Because she's just that sneaky and evil.

(G.S. is meant to represent George Soros.)

[xhouseboy]

I must say that reading these posts is quite an eye opener. With things stacked against us as they are, perhaps a change in direction would be the best course of action. Would we find the same circumstances if we wrote screen plays?


If Sherry ever stumbles across that, she'll be soon be in touch.

And the only thing stacked against most of them is their refusal to grasp the sheer hard graft it takes to succeed in either medium, and I don't mean wearing out the soles of their shoes.

[Sassenach]

If Sherry ever stumbles across that, she'll be soon be in touch.

And the only thing stacked against most of them is their refusal to grasp the sheer hard graft it takes to succeed in either medium, and I don't mean wearing out the soles of their shoes.

What?

[emsuniverse]

I had my book signing and it went really well. The news was there and even though it was brief, I was on the 11 PM news. They annoucned I had sold out in the first half hour, which I did. I brought two very large trays of iced cookies and make word scramble sheets pertaining to my book. I made a lollipop tree, magnets and made up flyers to hand out. I sent all the Peach Street Characters (in which they all wore T shirts to identify themselves) outside of the store to hand out my flyers.

I had a great time. Smile

This is why I sold out...I found out the manager had only ordered 15 books, because Ingrams has Publishamerica marked as "unreturnable" and POD.
Of course I immediately and nicely explained that they ARE retunrable. I said that Ingram may not have that in their system yet and that I think in January they became "returnable". I really didn't know how to explain that. Anyone run into this this little problem?

Just wondering

Haven't we been through this? NOT RETURNABLE, no matter what day it is. Sorry. Wrong number. You're screwed.

Next...

Original Post:

My book was made available online today, it's 500 pages long and is $34.95 on the online bookstore. I was just wondering if there are any others out there who had a book $30 and over and has that price ever been a problem when trying to sell it? Thanks. Christian.

Replies:
I am sure there are other books, but Lost in the Mist of Time retails for $34.95. It is 550 pages and soft cover.
I will admit that PA books are a little pricey, but also if people want the book they will pay the price for it.
I will also point out the PA books are some of the best in the industry.
Our book covers are far superior to other publishing houses.
The quailty of paper and ink is better than most publishing houses. and the binding is of excellent quality. So, if you want quality then you pay for quality.

I saw a sign one time that sums it all up, it said "good food isnt cheap and cheap food isnt good" now that same saying holds true for books.

If you purchase a book from other publishers that is a few years old the pages start to yellow, but not with PA. It will look the same five years down the road as it does now, because of the POD technology they use.

Dont concern yourself with price, just know you have a much better product than most. People will pay for quality, if they didnt then how did PA stay in business this long.

I spit out soda reading that. It's just... wrong.

It is best to place your trust in P A and they will not let you down...They are brilliant and if they cannot give you a good decision - no one can

I won't even make a comment on that, except to say I won't read the PAMB with Coke can in hand anymore because of the spewing while laughing/being astonished.

I felt my first book was overpriced at first. I found out later that folks will pay the price if they feel the book is something they want to read. I have sold over 400 @ the price of $29.95. I have sold 200 of my second book @ the price of $19.95 and waiting for my 3rd. book to be published.

400 and 200? Is this lady serious? Do PA people really sell that much?

[zizban]

Let's see here I have a 10 year old Lawrence Watt-Evans book from Tor. Hmm, still looks good. No yellowing.

[ResearchGuy]

Haven't we been through this? NOT RETURNABLE, no matter what day it is. Sorry. Wrong number. You're screwed. . . .
I wonder if the bookstore manager "nicely explained" that PublishAmerica lied.

One might think those poor dupes would figure out that bookstore personnel, who deal with these kinds of things for a living day in and day out, know their business.

--Ken

[spike]

I wonder if the bookstore manager "nicely explained" that PublishAmerica lied.

One might think those poor dupes would figure out that bookstore personnel, who deal with these kinds of things for a living day in and day out, know their business.

--Ken

But Ken,

Don't you know bookstores are the worst places to sell books? It must be true, because it was in Meiner's book.

Julia

[Jersey Chick]

I've got a bunch of Avon paperbacks going back as far as 1988 - the only discoloration is where I've spilled coffee on them. And these are books that I've read a zillion times...

Oh, but Research Guy, don't you know? The booksellers have sided with the "bad guys" of publishing - the <gasp> traditional houses :) That's why they won't stock PA books.

[Rolling Thunder]

Yeah. I went to B&N today and the copy of 'Elements of Style' was right were the clerk said it would be. All those other 1000's of books were so distracting, too, like candy in bright wrappers. And all those damn people, in there looking and buying --what's wrong with them? Don't they know about the internet? It would be so much easier to buy books if there weren't so many people in my way.

If those people don't stop going there, bookstores will never die like I keep hearing about. That's just wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

[e.dashwood]

I love going to Barnes and Noble the week before Christmas, because I get to spend at least a half-hour waiting to get to the cash register with all the other folks not buying books.

It's even more fun to show up to an empty store when the latest Harry Potter arrives.

[Queen of Swords]

So if the store sells 15 books, and you have to cover the costs of the iced cookies, the lollipop tree, the magnets and the flyers, how much of a profit do you make?

Or should I be asking if a profit was made at all?

[triceretops]

Infoblow states:


After a 3-year hiatus PublishAmerica is again accepting submissions for full-color books.



Veddy Interesting. I've never seen a full color childrens's book by PA. I don't think hiatus has anything to do with it. I think now that they have their own presses, and they can cut down on the cost of color production, they've opened up a whole new can of whoop ass for themselves.

What better market to gouge (for increased sales, or prop up lagging sales) than the children's book authors? Now, that, is a whopping writer's demographic.

What are your opinions on this? Why are they taking full color books now, if it isn't because they can control the production on them?

Or, are they so hard up for marks/writers that they will still use LS as the printer for even these editions?

Will there be price adjustments in some area and where?

Full color children's books must have some kind of minimum page count. It would be interesting to find information out on how this process is defined according to PA

Hmmm. Just thought of something. Full color books might be non-fiction reference and coffee table type books, too. Is color the magic word for PA now?

Those sneaky bastids. Something's up.

Tri

[spike]

Infoblow states:


After a 3-year hiatus PublishAmerica is again accepting submissions for full-color books.



Veddy Interesting. I've never seen a full color childrens's book by PA. I don't think hiatus has anything to do with it. I think now that they have their own presses, and they can cut down on the cost of color production, they've opened up a whole new can of whoop ass for themselves.

What better market to gouge (for increased sales, or prop up lagging sales) than the children's book authors? Now, that, is a whopping writer's demographic.

What are your opinions on this? Why are they taking full color books now, if it isn't because they can control the production on them?

Or, are they so hard up for marks/writers that they will still use LS as the printer for even these editions?

Will there be price adjustments in some area and where?

Full color children's books must have some kind of minimum page count. It would be interesting to find information out on how this process is defined according to PA

Hmmm. Just thought of something. Full color books might be non-fiction reference and coffee table type books, too. Is color the magic word for PA now?

Those sneaky bastids. Something's up.

Tri

It hink it's a combination of what you said. This weeks releases only lists 58 books. I'd like to think that sites like AW have something to do with their slow down.

So they are looking for new victims. With their own printer, they can control costs (read: Lie about how many were sold to increase profits), and everyone's auntie El has a book that her grandson illustrated that is just wonderful.

[James D. Macdonald]

They formerly did full-color books. Then they stopped accepting them: notice all the beg-a-thon letters from PA urging authors to buy their own books that have the note about how full-color books aren't included in the discount.

I think the setup costs from Lightning Source were beyond what PA was willing to pay.

I expect that we can figure out from this exactly what model POD machine they got. It'll be fun to watch to see how long it can go between breakdowns.

For all you full-color-children's-book authors out there who are thinking of this: keep careful count of how many copies of your book get sold (to Aunt Mabel or whoever) and see if your royalty statements are even within shouting range. Running their own printer is an invitation to fraud, not that they've needed a big invitation in the past.

[HapiSofi]

Four-color printing? In quantity? On their own presses?

That's not like them. Why would they want to own their own setup? Four-color printing is complex and expensive, you need trained staff to run the system, and the machinery's prone to break down. Also, if they aren't running a bindery line, they'll have to be shipping cartons of printed sheets to a bindery, which is a big headache.

It makes far more sense to cut a deal with a color printer in the Far East. It adds shipping time to your production cycle, and you can't send an employee down to the plant to check the color balance, but it's the sensible, economical way to go.

The only other way I can imagine them handling four-color printing would be to lease a color copier and charge their clients through the nose.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's their new Océ POD machine (http://www.oceusa.com/cp_ondemand.html), Hapi. I'm told it was just installed (at 24 S. Wisner, Frederick, MD (http://local.google.com/local?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS177US203&q=24+s.+wisner+frederick+md), for those who are curious).

Remember, they won't need more than 50-100 of any title, and they can consider printing 'em at their next printing meeting, to be held at their leisure.

[spike]

Four-color printing? In quantity? On their own presses?

That's not like them. Why would they want to own their own setup? Four-color printing is complex and expensive, you need trained staff to run the system, and the machinery's prone to break down. Also, if they aren't running a bindery line, they'll have to be shipping cartons of printed sheets to a bindery, which is a big headache.

It makes far more sense to cut a deal with a color printer in the Far East. It adds shipping time to your production cycle, and you can't send an employee down to the plant to check the color balance, but it's the sensible, economical way to go.

The only other way I can imagine them handling four-color printing would be to lease a color copier and charge their clients through the nose.

I don't know anything about color printing, but when was the last time PA concerned itself with quality?

[ResearchGuy]

. . .Full color children's books must have some kind of minimum page count. . . . Hmmm. Just thought of something. Full color books might be non-fiction reference and coffee table type books, too. Is color the magic word for PA now? . . .
16 pages is typical for illustrated books for very young children.

PA's costs just have to be ridiculously prohibitive for color books of any length.

One acquaintance of mine, Greg Voelm (he writes as Greg Velm) published a marvelous full-color trade paperback titled True Gold, a popular history of the Sacramento region, with emphasis on the role of gold. It is 183 pages, not counting fold-out maps. Printing cost, in quantity, about $2.00 per copy. Printed in China. (Not giving secrets here--he explained this in a public presentation recently, and the copyright page tells where it was printed.) The local Costco stores have it for sale at eleven dollars and change, while list price is $18.49 (a play on the Forty-Niners of Gold Rush fame). So, what would PA charge for something like that? I hesitate to even guess.

Another acquaintance had a paperback coffee-table-style book printed (oversize, color throughout) overseas, priced for profitable sale at $25. (Local interest book, primarily, and selling like hotcakes: Carmichael: Americana on the Move). Fewer pages, but larger format than True Gold. There again, of course, printed in quantity (thousands). I cannot imagine PA being able to produce anything like that at a price anyone could live with.

Trafford does color children's books. They are a bit pricey (POD), and of course require upfront fees, but have to be pricing the books at a fraction of what PA would charge.

FYI FWIW.

--Ken

[TwentyFour]

They used to accept the full color picture books from authors, remember Jamie Farr wrote one.

[ResearchGuy]

. . .It makes far more sense to cut a deal with a color printer in the Far East.
Only if you are buying a print run of thousands of copies of a single title.

One publisher of my acquaintance had a short-run (500 copies, I believe--if I recall correctly) done in China of a gorgeous collector's edition (special interest with an accessible audience), oversize, slipcased hardcover, but that is an exception because of the design of the book and its audience; the book lists for $75.00.

No way is anyone getting POD done overseas (not for delivery in U.S.). Nor can any money be saved that way.

BTW, Lulu does color, at $4.53 + fifteen cents per page. A 16-page color book from Lulu would cost $6.93 plus postage. I set up one of my unpublished monographs at Lulu to learn how Lulu works. At 92 pages, Lulu's printing cost for the color version is $18.33 (b/w is $6.37). PA would have to set a far higher price (and then double that for retail price), I would think -- obviously impossible if anyone wants to actually sell copies. For the life of me I cannot see how they can make a go of it.

--Ken

[HapiSofi]

That OCE printer's a touchy and expensive machine. It requires professional operation, regular maintenance, and proprietary supplies. You buy a machine like that if you need the in-house printing capacity and control -- say, if your job is to do highly specialized rush printing jobs for a wealthy company -- or if printing is your main business, and that's the equipment that best suits your needs.

This all needs real people to run it. Even buying paper for a printing operation is to some extent a specialized skill. PA has always hired hopeful, powerless, cheap labor (mostly local coeds) and exploited it ruthlessly. Experienced professionals from the imaging and printing industry don't fit that template.

If PA's making their own four-color picture books, they don't just have an Oce printer. I don't think those things have built-in binding systems, so PA's going to need:

1. Binding equipment, a supply of paper, and someone who understands how paper and bookbinding work.

2. Either a way to print and gloss their own four-color covers on heavy stock, or an arrangement whereby they're printed elsewhere and shipped to their plant. If the latter, the covers are going to have to be sized correctly in advance to fit the page lengths -- there's very little leeway for that on mass market and trade paperbacks. If a PA author makes text corrections that change the length of the book, that'll be a problem.

3. Personnel and equipment for packing up their finished books and shipping them out.

There's no way that this can be cheaper and easier than having some other operation print, bind, and ship their picture books. Between that and the need to hire expensive and self-willed employees to run it all, it just doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying anyone here is wrong. I'm saying that I can't see how PA can be telling the truth.

[spike]

I'm not saying anyone here is wrong. I'm saying that I can't see how PA can be telling the truth.

PA lying! I'm shocked!

[HapiSofi]

What Research Guy said. Slow color printing's cheap in China. Fast or POD color printing is very expensive here. PA's never cared about how long it takes for their books to come out, or how much their authors have to pay, so both options are available to them. There's no reason for them to set up as printers.

[LloydBrown]

I don't see why the new machine and the color printing have to be related. Did I miss something, or could it just be coincidence?

[Rolling Thunder]

I'll just insert this here for reference, even thought it has nothing to do with the current track of color printing.

The 'Open Call for comments on the "BOOK" business' has taken a turn towards links for paying for editing and related costs:
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=232216#232216

Continue with the color print discussion and look this over when you get the urge.

[James D. Macdonald]

I think that the two arriving at the same time are more than mere coincidence.

I expect that a sharp Oce salesperson got Willem to part with the money for a really nice system.

[spike]

I'll just insert this here for reference, even thought it has nothing to do with the current track of color printing.

The 'Open Call for comments on the "BOOK" business' has taken a turn towards links for paying for editing and related costs:
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=232216#232216

Continue with the color print discussion and look this over when you get the urge.

The woman who posted the thread turning post is also promoting her ebook on self promotion.

I've noticed that she has turned several threads into: How to promote your book (subtitled because our publisher won't), then as an addendum, reminds people that she has an ebook about to be released on, guess what? Promoting your Book!

I'm surprised PA is allowing her to Spam their message boards with a non-PA project.

[DaveKuzminski]

Right now, I'm not wondering if the printing machine bought by PA will break down. That's a given since PA is unlikely to hire skilled personnel. After all, PA has always tried to do it on the cheap. Therefore, the machine will go down sooner rather than later because no one will understand all the intricacies involved. It's not just knowing what to do, but when.

So, what am I wondering about? Exactly which partner will be blamed for spending all that money.

Of course, the printer could be a second-hand machine already on its last legs that they bought real cheap to disguise the true identity of their printer so that authors won't cause problems between the real printing company and PA. In which case, they might not even care. But with the announcement of color books being accepted once more, I have to believe they actually bought a good printer. So, who's going to get the blame when the machine dies?

By the way, when the machine dies I'm looking forward to seeing PA attempt to scramble to find a new printing company at the last moment when they have orders piled up and need the cash inflow desperately. This ought to be a real entertaining moment. I think we better have our pizza orders ready to phone out the moment it happens.

By the way, Miranda, when it happens, don't take a knife to a gunfight. Okay? Good.

[James D. Macdonald]

If printing your own books in-house were a good idea, the major publishers would already be doing it.

The opposite is true. The major publishers ditched their in-house printing capabilities the moment it became possible.

Do you think they know something that Willem doesn't?

[zizban]

Hasn't PA been bragging that they'll be the first major publisher not to out source their printing? as if this is a good thing.

In high school I worked part time at a printing plant, in the bindery. Nasty. Why would someone want to run one of those?

[James D. Macdonald]

First major publisher ... three lies in three words.

[triceretops]

I think that the two arriving at the same time are more than mere coincidence.

That's exactly what I thought. From the time that they announced the purchase of the printing machine, up until this announcement to proceed with full color books, is the percfect lag period where they had the time to hire the printing operators, read the operating manuals, learn the operation, do some test runs and kick the tires, buy the stock and then finally say "WE ARE SO READY TO GO NOW!"

I'm upset when I realize the market (I call the writers the market) they are appealing to could very well be thousands of their previous authors who had approached them with full color books and were turned down--then had to submit adult books as an alternative Not only the previous authors, but what about their childeren, who make up stories and render clumsy little sketches to acompany the text? So mom and dad says, "Oh, so sweet. Ya know, we can sign/sponsor this for our kid and run it through PA! Our child will be an author! Imagine his/her own book!"

The odor I whiff here is a slush/dumping ground for kids books. Consider just how difficult it is to write a good children's book and sell it in today's marketplace. Everybody wants into it. The psychological implications of this are enourmous!

This also takes into account the thousands of people, who believe they can write a great children's book, and have been turned down in the past from other publishers. And the new ones, who've just written one and are looking for a pub house.

Folks, look for future announcements on the PA main ad board about this new developement. It would be interesting to see how hard they push this.

In regard to a previous post: Yes, 58 books in a week is down from the 70 or 80 that they usually churn out. I agree that AW has had a major impact on their sales--and all the other watchdog sites.

Tri

[Rolling Thunder]

The odor I whiff here is a slush/dumping ground for kids books.

This also takes into account the thousands of people, who believe they can write a great children's book, and have been turned down in the past from other publishers. Nor the new ones, who've just written one and are looking for a pub house.

Actually, one of the PAMB regulars made a statement similar to this, stating "many of which [PA books] are not worthy of anything more than printing on demand."

[stormie]

Actually, one of the PAMB regulars made a statement similar to this, stating "many of which [PA books] are not worthy of anything more than printing on demand."
And is that statement still there on PAMB? It wasn't pulled? Amazing.

[Rolling Thunder]

No, that one is not on the PAMB.

[jamiehall]

I think that the two arriving at the same time are more than mere coincidence.

I expect that a sharp Oce salesperson got Willem to part with the money for a really nice system.

Imagine that! PA falls for a slick salesperson! One certainly hopes that they get back a bit of their own karma by trying to keep the thing running on the cheap.

[Queen of Swords]

So mom and dad says, "Oh, so sweet. Ya know, we can sign/sponsor this for our kid and run it through PA! Our child will be an author! Imagine his/her own book!"

I used to work for a very upscale school. Most of the kids there came from wealthy families who indulged them, and one such family paid for their six-year-old's story about a sea monster to be published. They donated a copy to the school library. That was when I realized the book had been published without correcting any of the numerous spelling and grammatical errors that the six-year-old made. The librarian eventually included it in the collection, but I don't think she ever called the other kids' attention to it, and for good reason.

[allenparker]

Do you think they know something that Willem doesn't?

No, actually, I think Willem knows something other publishers couldn't care less about....

His staff will not accidentally send out a printing inventory to one of their authors like a outside printer might do. Nor will his staff report to an author that there are two printers being used like a second printer might report. Audits could be more peaceful.

But, since I write fiction, this could just be a Fig Newton on my imagination.

And yes, Aruna, I know that we Americans do not use the "couldn't care less" phrase properly. I'll send along a coupla shots of Uncle Ray's Headache, Toothache, and Anything That Ails Ya medicine. You might still have the headache, but you won't care.

[ResearchGuy]

I. . . six-year-old's story . . . .
This reminds me of a paperback I came across last summer while boxing books to donate to SPCA book sale. It was written by a seven-year-old girl, Mary Celeste Deck, and titled The Book about Kitties. It consisted of a few dozen pages of childish lettering and drawings. It was simply charming for anyone who likes small children, cats, or both.

It was commercially published in 1978 (Price Stern Sloan) and became a best-seller.

Don't believe me? See http://www.alibris.com/books/isbns/14020 (scroll down) or look it up on Amazon.

By the way, I kept my copy of The Book about Kitties rather than give it to SPCA for its book sale. (The other couple thousand books I gave them should have sufficed.)

--Ken

[Gravity]

Oh, kitties. I thought you said ... nevermind.

[spike]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20531

I have been with this company since 2004. They are not a, "traditional" publisher as self described. They are in fact a POD (Print On Demand). This is one falsehood.
They assured me that my book would be available through all the brick and mortar bookstores, all the big named chains all over the world. I have never been able to get a big brick and mortar chain store to stock my book. They will not stock a PublishAmerica book. I have also contacted the company numerous times and was told that my book doesn't have enough words to be put on a bookstore shelf. Does that make any sense to you? Doesn't to me. This was Falsehood number 2.
They assured me that my book would be widely publicized. It was not. They did send out smudged 8.5" x 11" photo copied on typing paper purchase slips to my friends. This was most embarrassing. I would not order from a such an unproffessional mailer. I had to contact my local hometown newspaper myself and write my own article about my book. Lucky for me I knew the owner of the paper, or I never would've had any kind of publicity. This was Falsehood number 3.
They have listed on the Better Business Bereau site that their customer contact is: Ms. Miranda Prather, Exec. Director - (#######. They also state on their own website: Phone: #######- Monday - Friday, 8:30am - 5pm, EST. If you leave a message, your call will be returned in the order it was received. Please keep in mind, we get hundreds of phone calls each day. Yet, I have called repeatedly and have left message after message about this, and have never received a call back. Not good customer service towards a client. Especially as I have been very nice every time I have called, and have been hung up on repeatedly. They won't let me speak to a manager, or Ms. Prather, or even the owner of the company, Mr. Willem Meiners. I have been told they don't have phones in their offices. I have been told that they don't take calls. I have to email them. This doesn't work, either. Once, I was told I could be put through to the manager, but, when asked who was calling, they hung up on me again. This was Falsehood number 4.
I have researched PublishAmerica on the internet in great detail. There are websites in great numbers with information about authors suing for the right to terminate their contracts with this company for failing to comply with the terms they, themselves, put forth.
I want my contract with PublishAmerica terminated. I never want to have anything to do with this company ever again. I want to forget they even exist.
I am currently in the process of working with Free Legal Aide, who will provide a free attorney from the State Department to help me end this nightmare.
I have also filed a complete report with the Better Business Bereau. If you haven't checked on PublishAmerica through them yet, it would be advisable. You will see how they do business.
I only want what is rightfully mine returned to me. My work. I wrote it, illustrated it, and devoted hours and hours of my time to my creation. It is mine and no one else's. I want my contract terminated.
Christopher Tyner, author, "I'll Do It Tommarra Laura"Back to top (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20531#top)

[CatSlave]

What a shame, but hardly a surprise.
Christopher posted his message on ALL the PAMB threads. Good for him! I hope plenty of people will see it before the Infomanipulator disappears his messages.

Christopher, if you find your way to the AW forum, I would like to say :welcome:

[brianm]

What’s sad is the response to this posting from a newbie to PAMB.

The 'problems' you mention all relate to what happens at the beginning of the process, and not three years down the road.

'Print-On-Demand' refers to the technology used to produce stock. It makes sense to me to only produce books as they are needed, especially if the company is assuming all financial risk in making the book available.

I'm no going to go on, but I am new to this process and my book 'Episodes and Interludes' is just coming on-line. This being said, I am quite pleased with the services I have received and I realize that my book's success depends more on what I do than it does on what PublishAmerica does. I kind of like having some control over my own destiny.

I too have read those web pages, but I based my decision to go with PublishAmerica more on what authors here said and the fact that I was out no cahs whatsoever. I appreciate the chance I have been given and the investment being made on my behalf and am doing my best to succeed.

Thinking that it is the job of a writer to promote and sell his book, and not the publisher’s, is his first mistake. Basing his opinion of PA off the regulated and censored PA message board is his second mistake.

This thread won’t last long. I made a screen shot of it in case the OP should need it in the future.

Better get out another chair and put on the coffee.

[zizban]

Wow!

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm no going to go on, but I am new to this process and my book 'Episodes and Interludes' is just coming on-line.

Give it a year, my friend. You'll be singing the same song.

I realize that my book's success depends more on what I do than it does on what PublishAmerica does.

Your book's failure will depend more on what PublishAmerica does than what you do.

I too have read those web pages, but I based my decision to go with PublishAmerica more on what authors here said and the fact that I was out no cahs whatsoever.

Haven't bought any copies of your own book? Didn't make any flyers or bookmarks? No tablecloth? Didn't have to register your own copyright? If not -- why are you saying you aren't out any cash?

[James D. Macdonald]

Another response to Christopher's all-channel blast:

Good luck to you, fella. Fortunately, most of us are happy with our association with PA, and while we know there are a few like you, we have no wish to get out of our contracts. Not only that, but most of us reccommend PA to our writer friends.

Maybe you will be one of the lucky ones and get your book published by another company, and maybe not. Either way, I wish you the best.

A few ... thousand ... like you.

[brianm]

And now a response from one of the staunch supporters of PA.

And you felt the need to post this on more than one thread? Why? Did you think that one thread wouldn't hold all of the info you wanted to get out? Wait, that can't be it, because this is a copy of the other post.

I'm truly sorry you had a bad experience with PA, but most of us here have heard this story before and we don't pay it a lot of attention.

Good luck to you, and I hope you get your contract back soon, but making a bad attempt to bash PA on this message board will not help you do that.

The OP posted the same thread in all seven forums on PAMB. The PA infomonster will be busy deleting these threads. Perhaps, some PA lurkers who haven’t made up their minds will see it and think twice about signing with this scam company.

The OP signed on with PA in 2004. You would think some of the PA members would glean a wee bit of insight from his posting. They won’t. They will continue making flyers, magnets, aprons, T-shirts, car door signs, lollipop trees, and all the necessary marketing tools needed to become a successful writer. They won’t work on honing their writing skills, because we all know that has nothing to do with becoming a successful writer. It’s all about those lollipop trees.

[MMo]

And now a response from one of the staunch supporters of PA.



And now it's gone -- Poof!

Perhaps if Infocenter had been as prompt answering the OP's phone calls and messages, they wouldn't have had to bestir themselves so fast today.

Mo

[brianm]

The postings lasted sixty-six minutes. A new record? Infomonster must have been out to lunch.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . Thinking that it is the job of a writer to promote and sell his book, and not the publisher’s, is his first mistake. . . .
You might want to offer a guess at this thread: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59828

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

--Ken

[jamiehall]

You would think some of the PA members would glean a wee bit of insight from his posting. They won’t. They will continue making flyers, magnets, aprons, T-shirts, car door signs, lollipop trees, and all the necessary marketing tools needed to become a successful writer. They won’t work on honing their writing skills, because we all know that has nothing to do with becoming a successful writer. It’s all about those lollipop trees.

Lollipop... :roll: trees.... :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: ahhhhhhhh!

[James D. Macdonald]

Writers need to take care of themselves and do whatever is necessary to promote themselves and their books.

That isn't the same thing as "Promotion and marketing aren't part of the publisher's job," now, is it?

[brianm]

You might want to offer a guess at this thread: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59828

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

--Ken

The quote is from Publishers Weekly's "Talk Back" section.

I agree that writers need to take care of themselves and do whatever it takes to promote themselves. That has always been true in any of the arts. That doesn't mean you as the writer should be solely responsible for all promotion and publicity.

There is a big difference between promoting yourself when a respected commercial publisher is also promoting you, and promoting yourself completely on your own when you are with a publisher who has placed every possible barricade in front of you, making it nearly impossible for you to sell your book. Except to your family and friends.

[Jersey Chick]

I wonder how many times the staunch supporters would have to hear that same story (from many different people) before it sets off any bells? Oh, to be a fly on the wall when that light bulb goes off...

[brianm]

I wonder how many times the staunch supporters would have to hear that same story (from many different people) before it sets off any bells? Oh, to be a fly on the wall when that light bulb goes off...

For at least two of the old timers the light bulb went off a long time ago. The French woman and the pipe smoker have both said they know what PA offers is not the way to become successful in the writing game. They want PA to stay around because it fulfills them during their twilight years. It's their Moose Lodge, Lady's Bridge Club, Senior Center, whatever, all rolled into one activity. It makes them feel useful and important, and they guard their PAMB territory zealously.

Too bad they don’t realize the damage their support of PA causes aspiring writers. On the other hand, maybe they do, but they would be lost without PA and PAMB.

[DaveKuzminski]

For those two, I suspect the PAMB is the only place where they can be seen as experts by others. In a real author's forum, they'd find themselves constantly learning because everyone else would know more and newbies would be listening to those others who actually know more instead of them. Consequently, they've sold their integrity to PA.

[James D. Macdonald]

For the folks who are wondering what the "lollipop tree" references are all about, it's this pair of messages on the PAMB from one of their very, very, very happy authors (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=230460#230460):

For all those opinions out there...I have a question.

I have an upcoming book signing on the 31st of March. I thought that maybe I could buy some of those yummy iced cookies and maybe have a lollipop tree. Do you all think that's too much? I figure free treats are the way to attract people. I also have some business cards to give out and for all those who buy a book, I will add a fridge magnet.

Opinions?

Thanks a million!

and its followup (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=232056#232056):

I had my book signing and it went really well. The news was there and even though it was brief, I was on the 11 PM news. They annoucned I had sold out in the first half hour, which I did. I brought two very large trays of iced cookies and make word scramble sheets pertaining to my book. I made a lollipop tree, magnets and made up flyers to hand out. I sent all the Peach Street Characters (in which they all wore T shirts to identify themselves) outside of the store to hand out my flyers.

I had a great time.

This is why I sold out...I found out the manager had only ordered 15 books, because Ingrams has Publishamerica marked as "unreturnable" and POD.
Of course I immediately and nicely explained that they ARE retunrable. I said that Ingram may not have that in their system yet and that I think in January they became "returnable". I really didn't know how to explain that. Anyone run into this this little problem?

Just wondering


Her royalties, if PA ever gets around to paying them, for that afternoon will be $9.33.

[Rolling Thunder]

For at least two of the old timers the light bulb went off a long time ago. The French woman and the pipe smoker have both said they know what PA offers is not the way to become successful in the writing game. They want PA to stay around because it fulfills them during their twilight years. It's their Moose Lodge, Lady's Bridge Club, Senior Center, whatever, all rolled into one activity. It makes them feel useful and important, and they guard their PAMB territory zealously.

Too bad they don’t realize the damage their support of PA causes aspiring writers. On the other hand, maybe they do, but they would be lost without PA and PAMB.

Pipesmoker is the one who made the comment (on another board) I previously posted here:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1240063&postcount=942

The more I look around the web the more I see how many hard-line PA cheerleaders are saying the same thing. The usual argument is;

PA is a POD, which means 'Print on demand.'

The majority of replies are from wiser people: "Then why is it called PUBLISHAmerica? And why do you call yourself a published, not printed, author?"

They defend themselves by saying they never wanted to be highly successful writers, selling thousands or more books; they only wanted a nice coffee table book or a keepsake (which anyone can tell by their defense that isn't what they started out to achieve).

Anyhow. Okay, so be it; to each his own....just stop telling the new people, who want to be successful writers, that PA is the first step to success.

It isn't. It never will be. It's a vanity press, plain and simple.

[Jersey Chick]

For at least two of the old timers the light bulb went off a long time ago. The French woman and the pipe smoker have both said they know what PA offers is not the way to become successful in the writing game. They want PA to stay around because it fulfills them during their twilight years. It's their Moose Lodge, Lady's Bridge Club, Senior Center, whatever, all rolled into one activity. It makes them feel useful and important, and they guard their PAMB territory zealously.

Too bad they don’t realize the damage their support of PA causes aspiring writers. On the other hand, maybe they do, but they would be lost without PA and PAMB.

It would be sad, if they didn't damage anyone else's career in the process. Of course, with all the information out there, I don't suppose any one of them can say, "But I never knew..."

Well, they could, but it would be because of their own state of denial, or whatever you'd want to call it.

[ResearchGuy]

The quote is from Publishers Weekly's "Talk Back" section. . . .
That is not the original source. But that is what you would find if you merely Googled it.

Anyway, I made a new thread for that particular question, and kinda hope folks will play fair.

--Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

How to (http://jas.familyfun.go.com/arts-and-crafts?page=CraftDisplay&craftid=10519) Make a (http://www.associatedcontent.com/video/994/make_a_christmas_lollipop_tree.html) Lollipop (http://www.theideabox.com/Lollipop_Tree.html) Tree (http://www.essortment.com/food/howmakelollipo_slut.htm) .

[spike]

That is not the original source. But that is what you would find if you merely Googled it.

Anyway, I made a new thread for that particular question, and kinda hope folks will play fair.

--Ken


There is a major difference between saying that authors should promote when their books have already been marketed and are on the bookshelves and a PA author who is begging stores to stock their books.

Reputable publishers market and authors promote. PA leaves all that to the author.

[Tina]

Four-color printing? In quantity? On their own presses?

That's not like them. Why would they want to own their own setup? Four-color printing is complex and expensive, you need trained staff to run the system, and the machinery's prone to break down. Also, if they aren't running a bindery line, they'll have to be shipping cartons of printed sheets to a bindery, which is a big headache.

It makes far more sense to cut a deal with a color printer in the Far East. It adds shipping time to your production cycle, and you can't send an employee down to the plant to check the color balance, but it's the sensible, economical way to go.

The only other way I can imagine them handling four-color printing would be to lease a color copier and charge their clients through the nose.

Why do I get a feeling these picture books are going to be $&*(@_* ugly?

[JimmyD1318]

Why do I get a feeling these picture books are going to be $&*(@_* ugly?


"$&*(@_*" meaning really crappy? I'd be willing to bet my paycheck on it!

[James D. Macdonald]

Some of the picture books might be charming. It depends on the talent of the author and illustrator.

What remains to be seen is how good the color repro will be.

Price also remains to be seen.

Discount, distribution, marketing, and promotion -- will all be left out.

[CatSlave]

Some of the picture books might be charming. It depends on the talent of the author and illustrator.

What remains to be seen is how good the color repro will be.

Price also remains to be seen.

Discount, distribution, marketing, and promotion -- will all be left out.
Being curious about the recent PA poster Christopher's book, I found in on Amazon. The original price of his 38 page illustrated children's book was 17.95.

http://www.amazon.com/Ill-Tommarra-Laura-Christopher-Tyner/dp/1413727530

[Gravity]

:eek:

[JimmyD1318]

:eek:


My thoughts also! But more along the lines of :Jaw:!

[triceretops]

From the PAMB:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif Dick, we should all be warned. There are more crooks than honest people, always out for a buck. We should always remember when surfing the web, nothing is free, there is always a hidden cost somewhere.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Tri:Shrug:

[Saundra Julian]

Isn't that just sad!

[PVish]

Another newbie's "stepping stone" becomes a "stumbling block":

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20599
I have a book about to be released and am trying to go about finding out how to get book signings. I went to my local mall which has a Waldenbooks. A friend of mine, a fellow PA author had a signing there just last year, in fact they still have her signed copies on their shelf. I ask the woman how to get a signing and she says, "It's not for a Print on Demand book is it?" I just said no, even though it is. She handed me a sheet saying I have to send two copies of the manuscript to them as well as get a distributor? Is this what you have to do? And what is up with the POD thing? Publishamerica states on this site that most publishers now are POD, and if the store was against it to begin with how did my friend get a book signing? I told this woman we were through the exact same publisher. I don't get this

Looks like a lot of the new PA authors are now learning the truth about PA before their book is out. Now, if they could just learn before they sign the contract. . . .

[Rolling Thunder]

I'm wondering if those books are on the shelves or on the bargain book table. The PAMB poster's credibility, especially with the lie about his/her POD company, is questionable to me.

[Rolling Thunder]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20351

Take it from this ol gal --don't ever- ever -ever let someone else talk down your book! especially one in your family who should be loving and supportive! Always remember Mrs Eleanor Roosevelt's advice:

"No one can make you feel inferior without your permission!

As far as your promoting yourself, who better then you? You might try my approach--like once at a Barnes and Nobles store in Philadelphia , when I looked at the Manager and said to her...
" Would you believe dear that I write books too." well next time I walked in there she had six copies of "Le Cafe' de Cadix" which she made me authograph and then put on the front table, the most prized one in the store!

No additional comment, it speaks for itself. :rolleyes:

[Jersey Chick]

I notice she doesn't say the display when you first walk into the store (I'm assuming all B&N are set up pretty much the same way.) The only "tables" I see are the ones set up near the registers - not exactly where I'd want one of my books....

[Rolling Thunder]

She rubs many of the old PAMB writers the wrong way. In fact, she got one of the old regulars banned for a short time until a few of the others rallied around and got that member restored.

There are some good people over there, but French Lady isn't one of them.

[Arkie]

I followed the French lady's thread about the Philadelphia B&N episode. She later posted photos of her daughters (she has four or five) and her in conjunction with the book's release. She was with her daughters when the B&N discovery was made. I've always suspected one of the daughters arranged in advance for her book to be on display when they brought mama to the store.

[zizban]

That wouldn't surprise me.

[Ken Schneider]

I'm wondering if those books are on the shelves or on the bargain book table. The PAMB poster's credibility, especially with the lie about his/her POD company, is questionable to me.

Book signing last year is the kicker.

They've had her friends's book on the shelf for a year.
The book either has to be consigned, or the store has a vested amount of money in the book.

Since it is unlikely that the store purchased a number of books for a signing, the writer more than likely brought the books in, purchased from PA.

I suspect that the book is consigned.

This brings us back to the business model of PA, funneling the writer to purchase their own books.

[brianm]

PAMB is the French Lady's life. It's very sad.

A few months ago when royalty checks came out, she quipped how happy she was that once again she would be able to get her hair done with her royalty check, and that her goal was to be able to get her hair done and a manicure with the next royalty check.

Unfortunately, new members on PAMB take her word as gospel because she has been with PA since the ice age. She is one of the old timers whose words convince newbies to sign up with PAMB.

Just because you are old and retired does not give you the right to aid in destroying dreams and creating turmoil in other peoples lives. C'est vrai?:D

Happy Easter all!:e2bouncey

(That is not a dancing ghost. It is a marshmallow rabbit that melted a wee bit in our hot S. California desert sun. :tongue )

[Ken Schneider]

PAMB is the French Lady's life. It's very sad. Unfortunately, new members on PAMB take her word as gospel because she has been with PA since the ice age. She is one of the old timers whose words convinces newbies to sign up with PAMB.

She hasn't been there that long. I left just after she arrived.

Maybe a year and a half, now.

Albiet, long for the PAMB.

I've talked to her many times on the phone. You are right in saying that she loves to hang out there. But, she has many other things she does and is doing.
Her family takes her on trips all around the world. She just returned from Austria not long ago.

She is the ultimate optimist. Though I know she knows what PA is. Yet, it is a good fit for her. She is happy in her adventure with them. She has the money to buy books, or whatever else she desires.

In her mind she is not steering anyone in a direction that she wasn't happy going herself.

I am contemplating having a family member write a book to submit to PA in an effort to gain a password to return to the boards. Once there, I will would cherish a chance to refute comments made by the info giving know it alls.

[PVish]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20309
I always offer treats at every signing. I usually set my things up then take a couple of hand fulls of what ever candy I selected and scatter them on my table. This way the potential customer will have to look over the table and books to get the treat he/she wants. That, I find, usually prompts them to pick up one of my books.
. . . and adding a large mousetrap would keep the potential customer there until until he'd bought a book as a condition of release.

I also give out book markers, post cards or business cards. I have a friend what works for, (can't give the name) and they always have freebies to give out. My friend cleans out these freebie gifts every month, (if she didn't they would be bursting at the seams) and gives them to me. So if a person buys one of my books at an event, they get a gift bag. Hey if it's free to me, why not pass it on to a customer and make them even happier?
Hope this helps in some way.
Hey, what ever works right?

That has got to be one crowded table.

It's only a matter of time before book-signing tables are littered with all those little motel toiletries the authors probably brought home (from out-of-town signings, no doubt).

Speaking of litter, what a great way to get rid of Fluffy's last litter!

[Jersey Chick]

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=20309

. . . and adding a large mousetrap would keep the potential customer there until until he'd bought a book as a condition of release.



That has got to be one crowded table.

It's only a matter of time before book-signing tables are littered with all those little motel toiletries the authors probably brought home (from out-of-town signings, no doubt).

Speaking of litter, what a great way to get rid of Fluffy's last litter!

At my last job, I worked in the purchasing department and one of the things I did was those promo items - like squeezy stress balls, etc. They had the company name and logo on them and some of them were pretty cool - I have a squeezy Earth and a squeezy cow, a million coffee mugs, etc.

Imagine going to a booksigning, picking up a goody bag from Author X, getting home and finding it loaded with squeezy cows with Company Q's logo etc on it.

Unless Author X is scraping the names off and writing his/hers over it. I don't know which would be worse.

[brianm]

She hasn't been there that long. I left just after she arrived.

Maybe a year and a half, now.

Because she has 14,600+ posts, I assumed she had been there longer. A person would have to spend a great deal of time on PAMB to accumulate that many posts in a year and a half.

[James D. Macdonald]

She joined 23 Aug 2004.

[Ken Schneider]

She joined 23 Aug 2004.

I was kicked out 3-05.

I guess she would be an oldtimer in PA speak. Unless you want to include people like Lynn B who started there in 2000, and still posting until the last Easter ressurection debacle, and for a time after.

Another turnover will be around, soon.
One more royalty period will take care of most of the current posters, and the same old, tired, questions, will come around again.

And the newbies here will be quoting them.

[Rolling Thunder]

Maybe, Ken. But when you see things like:

2. Edit your message board posts. Everything you write reflects upon your ability and if Stephen King, John Grisham or other leading writers were posting here you can bet they would edit theirs. A typo may slip in here and there and that’s OK. You just don’t want many of them or a post containing poor grammar or spelling.

you just gotta do it.

[zizban]

I'd hate to think my posts are reflective of my overall writing ability. And perssonally I wouldn't care about the spelling and grammar of what Stephen King posts because I know he can write.

[Rolling Thunder]

Heh....I just couldn't imagine writers who make millions, by using traditional avenues of the business, posting on the PAMB.

[Ken Schneider]

Won't argue there is something new that pops up on occasion.

It is rare, since the people who have a modicum of longivity on the boards answer the newbies with the learned responses from those before them.

PA is a business model that's self repeating and works to perfection on the unknowing.

[JimmyD1318]

From the PAMB:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif Dick, we should all be warned. There are more crooks than honest people, always out for a buck. We should always remember when surfing the web, nothing is free, there is always a hidden cost somewhere.



That is beyond sad. To me it is just like the blind leading the blind.