PAMB and its quotes [Archive] - Page 19 - Absolute Write Water Cooler

ResearchGuy

07-23-2007, 01:46 AM

Let's hope that PA doesn't start a page proudly acknowledging all of the writer clubs that have members who published with PA. On the other hand, that might not be a bad idea. The sooner every writer club learns the truth about PA, the sooner PA will force themselves out of business.
The first meeting of that club (more specifically, of a sub-set of the club) I attended, in early 2005, featured a session on PublishAmerica, with some PA authors touting their experience. PublishAmerica pens were handed out, and Miranda's business cards. Also handed out, a PA flier with various errors, including the cover of the PA book titled Amoung [sic] the Ravening Sharks.

Dave, it is hopeless. The will to believe trumps the facts. I have seen that month after month for more than two years. Add to that the understandable reluctance to publicly humiliate PA authors among their friends and the scorn with which one is viewed for attempting to explain PA's distortions and lies and you begin to realize the hopelessness of the cause. I cannot say that that particular group is typical, but I have no good reason to believe it is not typical in those regards.

--Ken

James D. Macdonald

07-23-2007, 02:05 AM

I am quite thoroughly familiar with the normal curve. What you may not be familiar with is how far to the right the vertical line dividing the books people are willing to read from the books people want to read is located.

Very few books are so badly written as to be hilarious. The great majority are like Frankenstein's monster before the spark of life; masses of tissue that resemble a human being, but are not one.

Not that writing a random act.

ResearchGuy

07-23-2007, 02:45 AM

. . . What you may not be familiar with is how far to the right the vertical line dividing the books people are willing to read from the books people want to read is located. . . .
Tastes differ. Some folks found Snow Falling on Cedars unreadable (I found it entrancing, although the first 50 pages were slow going). I found Empire Falls impenetrable--not worth the effort to slog through 20 or more pages of introductory background before getting into the story. Both were huge bestsellers. One fantasy novel I considered buying (apparently well written in a technical sense of sentences parsing, etc.) was so ludicrous in its premise that I put it back after trying to read a couple of pages. Could not suspend disbelief. Commercially published, experienced author with many publishing credits. Unreadable.

Anyway, the notion of an absolute dividing line rather misses the point. Most people will not voluntarily read Shakespeare, either. Nor Dickens, I suspect. Nor, I suspect, Thomas Pynchon. But many people read those endless streams of pulp romance books that (I am told by one author in the genre) account for a majority of mass market paperbacks sold. And have you read the most recent "Cat Who" book? (The most recent in paperback, at least -- The Cat Who Dropped a Bombshell, I think it is.) Awful. But still it has its attractions (force of habit, mostly, and familiarity of settings and characters) for those who have stuck it out with Lilian Jackson Braun and her Cat Who books for decades. I cannot imagine anyone new to the series actually reading it, though, not past the first couple of pages.

Just as quality of writing varies, so do tastes and tolerances in literature. Some people read dreck. Many will not touch a classic with a barge pole. Go figure.

--Ken

Marie Pacha

07-23-2007, 03:38 AM

JCT

07-23-2007, 03:49 AM

spike

07-23-2007, 04:04 AM

Ken, you said, "Most people will not voluntarily read Shakespeare, either. "

My 17 year old son asked for "The Collected Works of Shakespeare" for Christmas this past winter. He's always been a reader with very eclectic tastes, but I was still surprised and delighted at his request.

He got what he asked for.

You're lucky. By the time I was 17, I had been "Shakespeared" to death in high school. Of course, my high school's idea of teaching Shakespeare was to read selections and have the teacher summarize the rest.

Luckily, for me, there was a wonderful college lit course where Shakespeare and others were read, not taught.

Marie Pacha

07-23-2007, 04:15 AM

He had an exceptional teacher this year; she made him think and explore the world of literature.

And of course I like reading, so we could discuss it at home too. But my kids never cease to amaze me. I do need to ask him how he feels about Poe!

Sheryl Nantus

07-23-2007, 04:16 AM

didn't like Shakespeare until I saw Kenneth Branagh's "Henry V"... darned well worn that movie out on both VHS and DVD!

as for the PAMB - it's embarassing to see such ignorant bullies running rampant in public. I'd be ashamed to call any of them my associates, much less my friends.

if you're a PA author or considering becoming one - you really want to add THEM to your friends' list? Have THEM speak for you in public?

eek!

Popeyesays

07-23-2007, 04:23 AM

You're lucky. By the time I was 17, I had been "Shakespeared" to death in high school. Of course, my high school's idea of teaching Shakespeare was to read selections and have the teacher summarize the rest.

Luckily, for me, there was a wonderful college lit course where Shakespeare and others were read, not taught.

I was taught shakespeare from the viewpoint of theater not literature. Something for which I am eternally grateful. I remember winning many an argument about the meaning of Shakespeare on the page by simply saying: "I hear what you say, but considering that Shakespeare didn't care enough to authenticate his folios that your suggestion can simply never play on the stage."

In short it wasn't poetry I was seeing in my head, it was actors playing the story out in perfection for me.

Regards,
Scott

ColoradoGuy

07-23-2007, 04:36 AM

FWIW, IMHO, I would suspect that PA books (like so much else) follow some variant of a normal curve. The bulk of them, represented by the upward bulge near the middle, are, well, middling. Not awful, not outstanding. So-so. Those on the left-side tail are poor to hideous. Those on the right-side tail extend out to a few that are excellent. (I would put William Holden's Dhow of the Monsoon in that category--darn fine reading by a genuine writer with deep credentials who made a bad call with PA.) And the left-side tail is more heavily populated--probably much more so--than the right-side tail. The curve is shifted sharply to the left (to the bad side) by comparison with the curve for legitimate commercially published books (the sort one finds in typical bookstores).

I doubt PA books follow a normal distribution in their quality because that would assume they represented a random sample of the entire group of books on the market, which they are not--most are the dreck others rejected.

DaveKuzminski

07-23-2007, 04:52 AM

Is that bell curve being drawn prior to or after PA performs editing upon the manuscripts? Please keep in mind that they still edit even the ones they claim not to edit when it suits their needs. That's already been stated, even though I don't have ready reference to when that was stated.

e.dashwood

07-23-2007, 05:03 AM

Here's a skewed bell curve. As we go to the right on the x-axis the writing gets better. Y-axis is frequency of writers for each x-point. Bad stuff to the left, good writing to the right of the mean. Mean=0. Most stuff less than 0. Does this describe the PA submission pile?

http://www.willamette.edu/%7Egorr/classes/cs449/figs/skewed.gif

Jersey Chick

07-23-2007, 05:06 AM

Ugh - why didn't I pay attention in math?

Actually, I did pay attention, and yet all of my curves went the opposite of where they should've gone.

JCT

07-23-2007, 05:09 AM

Aren't we into overflow territory?

James D. Macdonald

07-23-2007, 05:26 AM

e.dashwood

07-23-2007, 05:43 AM

Everything that you see in bookstores already comes from the right side of the readable/not-readable line.

I'm quite serious about this: you should see the slushpile. It isn't full of undiscovered gems. Nor is it full of hilariously bad writing. It is mind-numbing -- full of dreary, lifeless prose that only the author could love. That most of it is badly spelled and ungrammatical is just a bonus.

Most of the stuff that's in bookstores has already gone through at least three siftings: it was wheat separated from chaff by agents; then it was prime wheat separated from ho-hum wheat by editors; then it's wheat germ separated from prime wheat by bookstores.

Mel

07-23-2007, 06:14 AM

People are free to complain on the PA forums, darnit. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22386)

Not now. Another one flushed down the toilet.

ResearchGuy

07-23-2007, 06:56 AM

I doubt PA books follow a normal distribution in their quality because that would assume they represented a random sample of the entire group of books on the market, which they are not--most are the dreck others rejected.
A. I said "some variant of a normal curve." You are reading something quite different into what I actually said than what I did say. I know that the concept may be hard for some to grasp. C'est la vie. It is probably too subtle a point to be worth pursuing.

B. My observations (limited, and to be considered anecdotal, I grant you) suggest that a significant number (majority?) of PA authors turned there first, not after rejections by normal commercial publishers. I have no documented evidence as to what the actual stats are on that point. Nor do you.

FWIW.

--Ken

ResearchGuy

07-23-2007, 07:38 AM

Most of the stuff that's in bookstores has already gone through at least three siftings: it was wheat separated from chaff by agents; then it was prime wheat separated from ho-hum wheat by editors; then it's wheat germ separated from prime wheat by bookstores.
Reminds me of a quote attributed to Mark Twain: "The job of an editor is to separate the wheat from the chaff, and to see that the chaff is printed."

Anyway . . . lots of books that get into bookstores sell poorly. Lots of books that get reviews in PW sink without a trace. Passing those thresholds does not necessarily translate into sales. Thousands upon thousands of books published annually (just counting the ones that are intended for normal trade channels) are here today and gone tomorrow. A handful of authors dominate the bestseller lists. Most books are on shelves for the allotted couple of months, then gone. Please do not try to twist that into an endorsement of PA. It is not. But it is a dose of realism. Most commercially published books are destined to obscurity, or at best to a brief flash of sales and then disappearance. Sure, they are "well written" or "readable." But still intensely obscure. And if a commercial publisher thought that a badly written piece of tripe (think "Left Behind"?) would sell well, it would just as happily publish that as it would the next Janni Visman novel. Maybe more happily, as Janni Visman's PW-reviewed hardback novel Yellow (June 2005, reviewed May 2, 2005) never went to paperback and is now remaindered for a few dollars.

Sorry, I just take a slightly more jaundiced view than some of the glories of commercial publishing. That does not justify the deceit of the vanity presses, including PA, but it might restrain the transports of ecstasy over commercial publishing, which looks to the bottom line as much as do the producers of junk food like Twinkies. The bookstore shelves have their share of literary Twinkies, just as they have the literary equivalent of a produce section and a selection of whole-grain products.

(BTW, for those who are enamored of food metaphors, you are aware, are you not, that federal regulations allow a certain amount of rat feces (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060917194856AAVhDzQ), insect parts--yes, cockroaches--pesticides, and other, uh ingredients, in food sold for human consumption, right?)

--Ken

Jersey Chick

07-23-2007, 08:49 AM

Not now. Another one flushed down the toilet.

So much for that "Generosity" in allowing the PAMB, eh?

Ah well... just sit back and wait - something else will happen again. It always does.

Bubastes

07-23-2007, 05:38 PM

Everything that you see in bookstores already comes from the right side of the readable/not-readable line.

I'm quite serious about this: you should see the slushpile. It isn't full of undiscovered gems. Nor is it full of hilariously bad writing. It is mind-numbing -- full of dreary, lifeless prose that only the author could love. That most of it is badly spelled and ungrammatical is just a bonus.

Could you elaborate? What makes it dreary and lifeless? Is it a flaw in the overall story structure, or is it something more obvious (like NO structure at all)? Yes, it's pretty obvious I've never seen a slush pile.

Sheryl Nantus

07-23-2007, 06:01 PM

a thousand years ago I worked at Penguin Books Canada and had to deal with the slush pile - basically every month I was pointed at the stack of manuscripts lying against the wall and told "Get Rid Of Them!".

I would pause every now and then to look at the words, hoping that maybe I'd be the one to pull a diamond out of a pile of dung and pass it onto an editor.

Never did.

The vast majority, like 90% were either: handwritten, done on colored paper, hand-done illustrations, basic fanfiction (Star Wars! Meets! Star Trek!), typed in a neon color (to get attention, I guess) and the like.

Very few even had a query letter attached and even less had the SASE to go back. We would spend company money to return them if we could; since most hadn't even included a return address. Maybe a phone number and a name to send the check to - but nothing else.

It was the worst part of my day.

:(

Popeyesays

07-23-2007, 06:39 PM

Could you elaborate? What makes it dreary and lifeless? Is it a flaw in the overall story structure, or is it something more obvious (like NO structure at all)? Yes, it's pretty obvious I've never seen a slush pile.

Here's the meat of the excellentarticle "Slushkiller" created by the happy folks at Making LIght:
"

Manuscripts are unwieldy, but the real reason for that time ratio is that most of them are a fast reject. Herewith, the rough breakdown of manuscript characteristics, from most to least obvious rejections:
Author is functionally illiterate.
Author has submitted some variety of literature we don’t publish: poetry, religious revelation, political rant, illustrated fanfic, etc.
Author has a serious neurochemical disorder, puts all important words into capital letters, and would type out to the margins if MSWord would let him.
Author is on bad terms with the Muse of Language. Parts of speech are not what they should be. Confusion-of-motion problems inadvertently generate hideous images. Words are supplanted by their similar-sounding cousins: towed the line, deep-seeded, dire straights, nearly penultimate, incentiary, reeking havoc, hare’s breath escape, plaintiff melody, viscous/vicious, causal/casual, clamoured to her feet, a shutter went through her body, his body went ridged, empirical storm troopers, ex-patriot Englishmen, et cetera.
Author can write basic sentences, but not string them together in any way that adds up to paragraphs.
Author has a moderate neurochemical disorder and can’t tell when he or she has changed the subject. This greatly facilitates composition, but is hard on comprehension.
Author can write passable paragraphs, and has a sufficiently functional plot that readers would notice if you shuffled the chapters into a different order. However, the story and the manner of its telling are alike hackneyed, dull, and pointless.
(At this point, you have eliminated 60-75% of your submissions. Almost all the reading-and-thinking time will be spent on the remaining fraction.)

It’s nice that the author is working on his/her problems, but the process would be better served by seeing a shrink than by writing novels.
Nobody but the author is ever going to care about this dull, flaccid, underperforming book.
The book has an engaging plot. Trouble is, it’s not the author’s, and everybody’s already seen that movie/read that book/collected that comic.
(You have now eliminated 95-99% of the submissions.)

Someone could publish this book, but we don’t see why it should be us.
Author is talented, but has written the wrong book.
It’s a good book, but the house isn’t going to get behind it, so if you buy it, it’ll just get lost in the shuffle.
Buy this book.Aspiring writers are forever asking what the odds are that they’ll wind up in category #14. That’s the wrong question. If you’ve written a book that surprises, amuses, and delights the readers, and gives them a strong incentive to read all the pages in order, your chances are very good indeed. If not, your chances are poor.

Queen of Swords

07-23-2007, 06:46 PM

JCT

07-23-2007, 06:54 PM

Sheryl Nantus

07-23-2007, 07:28 PM

I used to think it would be fun to work as a slush reader, because you wouldn't have to actually read every manuscript all the way through and you might be amused at many of them. But surely these days people don't send in anything handwritten? It's so much easier to use a computer, even if they aren't using it correctly.

well, this was in the late 80's, so keep that in mind. However, I had a slew of handwritten manuscripts, most of them on legal yellow pads that were pretty well impossible to read.

seriously.

*puts up hand*

I swear.

and I do believe typewriters were invented well before that, so...

to bring it back around to PA - there are people out there who figure that no matter how many obstacles they toss in their OWN way, their brilliance in writing will shine through. Thus they handicap themselves even more than usual.

they do the same nowadays electronically - either they attach the entire manuscript when it's NOT been requested (and who's going to open an attachment they're not sure of?) or have formatted the manuscript in some obscure font, single-spaced it and left all the caps on to MAKE THIER POINT TAT THEY ARE BESTEST AUTHOR EVER!

thus they fall prey to PA and continue to crippple themselves.

James D. Macdonald

07-23-2007, 07:45 PM

If you want to simulate the experience of being a slush reader go over to Fanfiction.net, pick a category, and start reading, starting at the top of the pile and going down. Do this for eight solid hours (with a break for lunch). Then do it again tomorrow.

Jersey Chick

07-23-2007, 08:03 PM

I judge in a few contests for unpublished writers and it seems to me in the last few years, the entries have gone waaaay downhill. The first year I started, the entries I had were beautifully written and engaging, with only a few problems. The next year, a little less so, and so on and so forth. This year, if the ones I had weren't rough drafts, I'd have been amazed. I actually had to put them down for a few days because I was getting annoyed by them. Poor punctuation, horrible grammar, no real plot (just a string of events), no motivation, no changes, no growth, flat, cliched characters - you name it, it was there. One had a synopsis that told everything but what the actual story was - it was frustrating at best and ticked me off at worst.

After this year, I'm going to have to think long and hard about doing any again in the coming year - which is a shame because I always liked doing it. I can imagine how slush pile readers must feel, going through stacks like that. I couldn't do it for very long (not enough lighters and definitely not enough hair for me to set on fire.)

Sparhawk

07-23-2007, 08:35 PM

JCT

07-23-2007, 08:44 PM

Imaginie how the poor sould that wade through PA submissions must feel, maybe that's why they'r eonly supposed to read the first five pages, the middle pages and then scan for certain key phrases.

I'm also mystifed how some books can "Resonate" I've had a few Clancy novels that were riveting and others that were just too painful to get beyond the first fifty pages.

Considering they have certain numbers that must be met, I bet most only get a skimming even during the submission process.

Jersey Chick

07-23-2007, 08:47 PM

After a while, it does become apparent after the first 5-10 pages whether or not I'm going to be muttering to myself about wasted time. Somehow, I'm not so sure PA is going through their submissions quite the same way. I was really looking for a story - I think they merely look for words. Are they there? Yep. Are the "forbidden" bits not? Yep. OK - get a contract out.

JCT

07-23-2007, 09:06 PM

Bubastes

07-23-2007, 09:15 PM

Oh that was probably the worst 20 minutes of my life. UGH.

I poked around in the F. Scott Fitzgerald section. The posters there seem able to write in complete sentences for the most part, but I didn't find anything that I liked.

I'm scared to go into the other areas. JCT, are your retinas still intact?

JCT

07-23-2007, 09:47 PM

I poked around in the F. Scott Fitzgerald section. The posters there seem able to write in complete sentences for the most part, but I didn't find anything that I liked.

I'm scared to go into the other areas. JCT, are your retinas still intact?

Try the Tolkien or Dune sections.

Jersey Chick

07-23-2007, 11:13 PM

I went to the Catherine Coulter section. Do. Not. Go. There. Under any circumstances.

I think my eyes are bleeding.

Old Hack

07-23-2007, 11:35 PM

Here's a link to a post I put up a long, long time ago, which might help explain the horrors of the slush-pile:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=391483&postcount=4

JCT

07-24-2007, 05:58 PM

And back on the ranch, a newbie wants to know how one goes about finding out how many books they've sold.

Once our book is released on line through PA is there any way for us to know if the book is being ordered by the public, or is there way to know how many books have been sold, I am dying to know if anyone has purchased my book.
Thank you,

And the wisdom begins to flow:

For the most part you are at the mercy of PublishAmerica. You will know how well your book is selling when you receive your royalty check.

"mercy of PublishAmerica" heh. I wonder if that a Freudian slip? Oh and the royalty/reality check because PublishAmerica is so honest with its accounting!

Another indicatior of how well your book is selling is how many books have you personally sold? Do you have a website and are people ordering through your website?

Tell me again you didn't pay to get published.

DaveKuzminski

07-24-2007, 06:48 PM

It's terrible that the reality check from PA is always more valuable than the royalty check.

Mel

07-24-2007, 06:57 PM

Another indicatior of how well your book is selling is how many books have you personally sold? Do you have a website and are people ordering through your website?

No, the indicator is how many have you bought.

Sparhawk

07-24-2007, 07:17 PM

No, the indicator is how many have you bought.

Man, this is PA in a nutshell. How anybody can call them a traditional publisher is absurd. An entity that solely exists for author self purchases is truly a 'Vanity' publisher by definition.

ResearchGuy

07-24-2007, 07:55 PM

Man, this is PA in a nutshell. How anybody can call them a traditional publisher is absurd. An entity that solely exists for author self purchases is truly a 'Vanity' publisher by definition.
Vanity publishing and subsidy publishing have a much longer tradition than does the corporate behemoth publishing that is dominant in the industry today. It is probably more accurate to use the term "traditional publisher" to refer to vanity publishing or its variants than it is to refer to something (the international publishing cartel) that has existed and metastacized for only a few decades.

"Traditional" is a meaningless term in publishing. That, I suspect, is exactly why PA adopted it. It gives a warm and fuzzy feeling, but it has no relevant definition. It is a slogan, nothing more.

--Ken

Mel

07-24-2007, 08:06 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=21610&start=30
I finally have had a chance to read your post and only have one thing to say. QUIT SUCKING UP!

Ooooh, I like this! Wonder if it will stay.

Sheryl Nantus

07-24-2007, 08:16 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=21610&start=30

Ooooh, I like this! Wonder if it will stay.

from the thread: Porn Guy says...

"I have to agree with all of the above. My book about the sex industry has been selling pretty damn well online and from my website alone, we've had over 1,000 hits in only 3 weeks and word has it that it's going to do well when it becomes available in bookstores august 20th. PA has been very good about pushing this book."

oh.... this is gonna hurt.

:(

JimmyD1318

07-24-2007, 08:17 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=21610&start=30

Ooooh, I like this! Wonder if it will stay.

Of course it won't. This writer is one of the ones that has opened his eyes to what is going on over there. It won't be long before he's kicked to the curb. Maybe we should start getting another chair out and some...you guessed it...POPCORN!:popcorn: <MUNCH! MUNCH! MUNCH!> Ahhh....!

Afinerosesheis

07-24-2007, 08:19 PM

"If I had something bad to say I would, but I don't."

You can't write any bad experiences on there or you will get an infocenter paddling!

Queen of Swords

07-24-2007, 08:20 PM

Ooooh, I like this! Wonder if it will stay.

The author of that post has gotten the reality check :

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=21122&start=15

JulieB

07-24-2007, 08:35 PM

from the thread: Porn Guy says...

"I have to agree with all of the above. My book about the sex industry has been selling pretty damn well online and from my website alone, we've had over 1,000 hits in only 3 weeks and word has it that it's going to do well when it becomes available in bookstores august 20th. PA has been very good about pushing this book."

oh.... this is gonna hurt.

:(
That post was from a couple of weeks ago. Didn't Jim recently report three figure sales on that title? As in 1, 2, 3 copies sold?

Jersey Chick

07-24-2007, 08:54 PM

Does anyone else see the irony in this?

Hey you get what you pay for and we paid nothing.

And that's in the "Good Experience" Thread **snerk**

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=21610&start=30

I wonder if the poster realizes what s/he has actually said, that it really isn't such a compliment after all??

James D. Macdonald

07-24-2007, 09:12 PM

How many copies have you sold?

A PA author already knows this, because he knows by name everyone who has bought a copy, and/or was looking into the purchaser's eyes when money changed hands.

The rare exception: specialized niche non-fiction.

Speaking of which, Porn Guy's sales for How To Break Into the Porn Industry are sliding again toward the dread one-million mark in Amazon Sales Ranks after that surprise purchase of one copy on the 19th.

He's removed the recent mentions of his book from his blog, so he may be starting to get an inkling.

Still no cover picture or book description at Amazon.com. Listed at BN.com, but no sales rank (no sales), and no description. It's listed at Bordersstores.com, but it isn't actually on the shelf in any Borders store within 100 miles of Indianapolis, Indiana. Again, no product description.

Still hovering at 3 sales this year via Ingram.

The ships in bottles book is leaving him in the dust, with 8 sales via Amazon and 11 this year through Ingram.

Afinerosesheis

07-24-2007, 09:46 PM

The fog in the air at the PAMB is that PA is the last stop for an unknown author. No "traditional" publisher will ever touch them. This causes authors to lose hope that there will never be anything better out there for them, and when you lose all hope then you have good ole' PA to publish your works.

It's really sad to see authors sell themselves short like that. It is only when you get out of that atmosphere that you begin to understand that there is that chance out there for better. I'm glad I came here, because coming here helped me to realize that.

BenPanced

07-24-2007, 11:00 PM

from the thread: Porn Guy says...

"I have to agree with all of the above. My book about the sex industry has been selling pretty damn well online and from my website alone, we've had over 1,000 hits in only 3 weeks and word has it that it's going to do well when it becomes available in bookstores august 20th. PA has been very good about pushing this book."

oh.... this is gonna hurt.

:(
And once again, the number of hits to his site does not necessarily equal the number of books he's sold. And, again again, since most of his hits are probably from the curious here at AW...:Shrug:

JulieB

07-24-2007, 11:35 PM

Speaking of which, Porn Guy's sales for How To Break Into the Porn Industry are sliding again toward the dread one-million mark in Amazon Sales Ranks after that surprise purchase of one copy on the 19th.

He's removed the recent mentions of his book from his blog, so he may be starting to get an inkling.

Still no cover picture or book description at Amazon.com. Listed at BN.com, but no sales rank (no sales), and no description. It's listed at Bordersstores.com, but it isn't actually on the shelf in any Borders store within 100 miles of Indianapolis, Indiana. Again, no product description.

Still hovering at 3 sales this year via Ingram.

Not in stores where I live, either. Am I surprised? Of course, not!

Sparhawk

07-25-2007, 12:09 AM

The joke that is between my wife and I is that we go for the coffee. This is because after I figured that I make about $1.50 in royalties for each book they sell, which means that I would have to sign at least 40 books to break even. So what it comes down to after gas, posters, postage, give away items and publicity, I lose about 20 to 30 dollars a signing. That's why I've tried to keep the signings to within a certain distance from home, because if you add in hotel cost, then it becomes a very big loss. So the old saying "Don't quit your day job" very much applies. Especially now that I'm unemployed looking for a job.

This from the PA boards... Wow!! That's truly depressing.

Tina

07-25-2007, 12:11 AM

Vanity publishing and subsidy publishing have a much longer tradition than does the corporate behemoth publishing that is dominant in the industry today. It is probably more accurate to use the term "traditional publisher" to refer to vanity publishing or its variants than it is to refer to something (the international publishing cartel) that has existed and metastacized for only a few decades.

"Traditional" is a meaningless term in publishing. That, I suspect, is exactly why PA adopted it. It gives a warm and fuzzy feeling, but it has no relevant definition. It is a slogan, nothing more.

--Ken

That's true. There are certainly examples of Victoria/Edwardian writers who printed their own books (none of which are coming to mind right now except maybe Dickens/the Brontes??). There were few publishers, a lot fewer readers and people were not expecting to become rich or superstars from their writing.

In the last fifty or so years, being published has meant something very different. It means a "house" stands behind your book, places its imprint on/within the covers announcing that your book has been selected, edited, marketed and promoted. That's still how I think of publishing and being published.

PA invests nearly zilch in its authors except what they're quite sure they'll make back (a few hundred dollars easily covered by a dozen purchases by the author). PA does not stand behind its authors, not from what I've seen and heard in this very enlightening year and a half that I've been learning about them.

Dave - in Toronto, there are not a lot of indie bookstores left and the ones that are seem to specialize in used or collector's books. It may be different in other parts of Ontario or Canada, especially more rural areas; however, Indigo/Chapters is the biggie here. If you write to Indigo/Chapters head office, they should be able to give you an update on their dealings, if any, with PA that will be representative of a good-sized chunk of the Canadian market.

James D. Macdonald

07-25-2007, 01:13 AM

The commercial publishing model first took off in the 1840s (when technology allowed mass production of books, as opposed to the earlier one-sheet-at-a-time letterpress printing).

Back then (way back then -- 18th c. and earlier) you had books printed and bound to order (hence the saying "You can't tell a book by its cover). So in that way Print On Demand is a very old model.

But with the invention of steam-powered presses you started seeing printing plants, printing books in advance of sales.

Yes, you still had books being privately printed, yes you had other models (such as subscription).

Yes, lately publishers have been bought up by multi-national corporations seeking to broaden their portfolios. But this is unimportant from the authors' point of view. Those publishers need titanic amounts of material. They sell on a broad scale.

No publishing model has gone away -- you still see subscription, private printing, and even patronage. But the fact remains: "traditional" is a fuzzy term. Commercial publishing is, and for the last 150 years has been, the way to get your book to the greatest number of people.

And then, now, and always: Readers drive the market.

DaveKuzminski

07-25-2007, 01:27 AM

I don't care what kind of bookstore so long as they sell to the public.

TwentyFour

07-25-2007, 01:39 AM

Whatever happened to the guy who found ten fans with ten books in the diner? Did he get banned or something?

DaveKuzminski

07-25-2007, 01:46 AM

Whatever happened to the guy who found ten fans with ten books in the diner? Did he get banned or something?

More than likely, someone looked up his sales number and discovered those didn't mount up that high. ;)

Queen of Swords

07-25-2007, 02:58 AM

Damage control after someone told PA authors to stop sucking up. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=21610&start=30)

I am another happy author- I would have to say PA did exactly what they said they would, and in a timely way. Not only was i pleased with the cover art, but also with the email announcements they sent out, the availability of the book, and all. It is available to bookstores and readily available on the web. Free web page & great listing on the PA site: all exactly as advertised.

I'm not sure why they think a free web page is such a great thing. A friend was kind enough to set up http://www.queen-of-swords.net/ for me, but before that I had a free web page with Angelfire.

Anyway, a hint of reality creeps in after the praise and PA-stroking.

The one and only - well its not a concern, its a minor detail - courtesy copies for reviewers don't seem to be high on their list. I realize they can't make $ from free books for reviewers, but it is a valid promotional tactic.

If you can't make money from sending books to reviewers, why do other publishers do it? So they can show a loss instead of a profit and avoid having to pay income tax?

I've not made repeated efforts to beg the odd free book from them, so cannot claim they are unresponsive - just one really, they may yet get to. I wish they had an up-front policy - (like one free to an approved reviewer, and the second one to a reviewer at author's cost, and with author's ok, or something like that.) Reviews are an important part of sales, JMHO of course.

I like the quick, anxious, CYA disclaimer at the end. I'm wondering if anyone will tell her that if she wants reviews, there are dozens of good folks on the PA boards who will be delighted to write her a review. Judging from the samples posted in their reviews forum, it will look something like this :

"Fellow Author's book touched me to the bottom of my heart and I was moved beyond words as I read it. It is an unputdownable read. The characters really come alive and they are like your best friends and you will laugh and cry along with them. I give this book and its author (and publisher, of course!) five stars like the bright lights this book put in my life. <smiley> <smiley> <smiley>"

CatSlave

07-25-2007, 03:09 AM

Your review is better. :D

endless rewrite

07-25-2007, 03:37 AM

That review just made me want to rush out and buy the book, it was so detailed and moving and five starish. I also like the way it is interchangeable for all PA author reviewed books. However I would hate to have to read one of those shitty four star review books - that would suck.

TwentyFour

07-25-2007, 04:17 AM

Queen...don't forget to sign your review with a list and ISBN's to your own PA Book!

DaveKuzminski

07-25-2007, 04:52 AM

Damn it, I rushed out to my nearest bookstore and they didn't have that five-star PA book. Now I'll never know those characters! ;)

James D. Macdonald

07-25-2007, 04:56 AM

Okay, let's look at that HAS ANYONE HAD A GOOD EXPERIENCE? (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=21610) thread.

Unique posters:

Poster 1:

Good experience. Book released: June '07. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 2:

Good experience. Books released April 2006 and Jan 24, 2005. Status: Old Hand.

Poster 3:

Good experience. Book released Dec '06. Status: Honeymooner. (Book released in 90-day-excuse window for Feb '07 royalties.)

Poster 4:

Good experience. Books released Jun, 2004 and Nov 2005. Status: Old hand.

Interestingly enough decided to go with a different publisher for most recent book.

Poster 5:

Good experience. Book not yet released. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 6:

Good experience. Books release Jan '05 and Jan '06. Status: Old Hand.

Mixed review: Also says, "I wish to go to a bookstore in another city and see my book there. But, I'm not tooooo old and anything is possible. "

Poster 7:

Good experience. Book released May '07. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 8:

Good experience. Book released May '06. Status: Old hand.

Poster 9:

Good experience. Books released July '06 and May '07. Status: Old hand.

Poster 10:

Good experience. Book released April '07. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 11:

Good experience. Book released June '07. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 12:

Good experience. Book released Sept '06. Status: Old hand.

Poster 13:

Good experience. Book released Aug '06. Status: Old hand.

Poster 14:

Good experience. Book released May '07. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 15:

Good experience. Book released Dec. '06. Status: Honeymooner.

(Book released inside 90-day-excuse window.)

Poster 16:

Good experience. Book released Jan '05. Status: Old hand.

Poster 17:

Good experience. Book released April '07. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 18:

Good experience. Books released July '04 and July '05. Status: Old hand.

Poster 19:

Good experience. Book released Sep '06. Status: Old hand.

Poster 20:

Good experience. Book not yet released. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 21:

Good experience. Books released May '05 and Feb '06. Status: Old hand.

Poster 22:

Good experience. Book released Mar '07. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 23:

Good experience. Book released May '07. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 24:

Good experience. Book not yet released. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 25:

Good experience. Book released Jun '07. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 26:

??? experience. Books released Jan '06 and Feb '07. Status: Old hand.

(Doesn't say if he had a good or bad experience. Instead says "Quit sucking up.")

Poster 27:

Good experience. Book released May '07. Status: Honeymooner.

Poster 28:

Good experience. Book released April '07. Status: Honeymooner.

Good experiences:

Old hands: 11

Honeymooners: 16

Unknown reaction:

Old hands: 1

Honeymooners: 0

If I throw out the unknown, that's 59% honeymooners chiming in.

ResearchGuy

07-25-2007, 05:39 AM

. . . In the last fifty or so years, being published has meant something very different. It means a "house" stands behind your book, places its imprint on/within the covers announcing that your book has been selected, edited, marketed and promoted. That's still how I think of publishing and being published. . . .
Substantially longer, actually. It is the consolidation and fiscalization, so to speak, of publishing that has dominated the last 40 or 50 years. Publishers were increasingly replaced by bean counters. But that is off topic. I have, I believe, posted some titles of pertinent books (memoirs and a vast four-volume history of U.S. publishing) elsewhere on AW.

--Ken

Jersey Chick

07-25-2007, 05:49 AM

Yanno - if I read a review, I'd like to be told a little bit about silly things - like the PLOT. I don't want to be told it'll pluck my heartstrings (You'd have to assume I have heartstrings to begin with!) I don't want to be told it'll make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I want to know WTF the story is about before I plunk down my dough.

To be honest, I rarely read reviews and there is only one book I ever chose strictly because of it and that was Caleb Carr's The Alienist. The reviewer went into details about the plot (listen up PA reviewers - I'll say it again - The Plot) and it sounded so fascinating that I went out and bought the book. The reviewers didn't lie (I wish Carr would write more about these characters, but I think he made it pretty clear that Angel of Darkness would be the last one. Damn shame, if you ask me.) It said nothing about being a feel-good read or you'll be all mushy inside. It was all about the plot, baby, all about the plot...

PVish

07-25-2007, 07:41 AM

Well, this explains a lot . . . sorta. One PA author tries to console another who was so mad at his B&N rejection that he wanted to blow the place up.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22378
...I was so happy when I went to my local B&N to set up a booksigning and imagine how shocked and embarrased I was when the book manager told me they did not stock PA books and that I should have gotten myself another publisher. This woman even went and got a book out and told me to pick a publisher from one of these for my next book. I was so mad and I thought, "how dare she. Who does she think she is, snubbing her nose up at me like that." I was happy that I found PA, and the cover on my book was better than any that she had on her shelves. That's when I started to learn about the publishing game. It's all about money. The big publishers are afraid that everything will go POD, because it is cheaper and less waste of printed material. B&N did own a 25% of Iuniverse, a POD publisher, and you can bet you will see a few of those books on the shelves. The POD publishers are mad at PA because, they feel like they are losing money every time PA prints a book, yours and mine. They think we would have come to them if it wasn't for PA. So, unless your are a VIP, or some person hitting the news in a good or bad way, you will have to promote yourself and that is hard to do. I went in to writing because I love it, and sure I want to make money doing it, but I knew that fame only comes to a few authors, and maybe someday, more authors will be noticed. Then there is the public decrease in reading. People don't read as much as they once did because of TV, video games, tec. So, try not to be discouraged. We all get the blues and worries sometimes, but keep on writing and keep on trying. I wish you much success. I thank PA for taking a chance on me, and I do believe that someday VIPs of the printing world will recognize the
pioneering spirit of PA to give all authors a chance.

A chance at what?

"VIPs of the printing world"? Huh?

Mel

07-25-2007, 07:58 AM

I especially like these two.

It's all about money. The big publishers are afraid that everything will go POD, because it is cheaper and less waste of printed material.

Well, yes, it is about money. It's a business. Sorry, but the "big publishers" don't even think about PA. And, since it is so much cheaper then why does PA put a higher price tag on all your books? Couldn't be because PA is all about the money, now could it? Something upstairs should be going -ding, ding, ding-.

The POD publishers are mad at PA because, they feel like they are losing money every time PA prints a book, yours and mine.

I'd like to see some facts from PA, or you, the authors, to back this up.

Looks more like you're just blowing in the wind.

Jersey Chick

07-25-2007, 08:59 AM

This one made me go "Wha--??"

I agree with those who say placement in the brick and morter stores is an ego thing, a support for book signings, mainly.

Now, if they mean placement as in front table, etc. - yeah, okay. I'll give them it's an ego thing. Maybe. I should think being placed on that table would mean you're pretty likely to sell a copy or two. And I can't imagine any one of them would turn down that placement, if it was possible to get it in the first place.

But if they mean placement as in "able to find it in a bookstore", then it becomes a hugh WHAT? How could having your book on a shelf in a bookstore be merely an "Ego thing"? Wouldn't that be a "able to sell books" thing? Ay yi yi.

And the wisdom continues:

Selling books requires PR. Period. Without PR, it doesn't matter where the book sits.

Well, I think it does matter if no one can find your book while they're browsing, or even if they go into a B&N with your specific title in mind. All the PR in the world won't matter if it's a huge chore to actually get your book.

That Kool-Aid must be some magic stuff.

Komnena

07-25-2007, 03:25 PM

The bookstore manager apparently spent a large chunk of time with this author. She didn't snub the author, she snubbed PA for refusing to give discounts and make their books returnable, both of which are necessary for bookstores to afford to stock books.

e.dashwood

07-25-2007, 05:41 PM

It's all about money. The big publishers are afraid that everything will go POD, because it is cheaper and less waste of printed material.

It's cheaper to print a few thousand at a time.

"Less waste of printed material"? Now I know that PA is POD for the environment. And the helicopter runs on Willie Nelson corn oil?

Dave.C.Robinson

07-25-2007, 06:43 PM

The problem is that they keep parroting how it's all about the money but very few if any of them have an inkling of how the economics of publishing really work. This makes a lot of sense when one also considers that PA is actively working to make sure they don't understand the way the economics of PA publishing really work.

ResearchGuy

07-25-2007, 07:09 PM

It's cheaper to print a few thousand at a time. . . .

That depends on actual sales. If you print 3,000 and sell 300, the per-copy-sold cost shoots up. Even many real books (scholarly mongraphs, specialized reports, niche works of fiction and nonfiction) sell only a couple or few hundred copies. No economies can be gained from printing thousands, and in fact substantial diseconomies occur. There is also the question of financing the investment in such a printing run. Interest charges and opportunity costs can add up quickly.

PA books, with a typical audience in the low two-digit range (and very rarely more than that), if not in the single-digit range, are clearly candidates for POD. It would be crazy to print thousands of copies only to end up pulping all but two dozen.

--Ken

James D. Macdonald

07-25-2007, 09:08 PM

.
2080

CatSlave

07-25-2007, 09:10 PM

:roll:

Mel

07-25-2007, 11:50 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22423
I signed on with PA twice, for two different sequels that I wrote.

I have just finished writing another book for the first sequel. I have publishers interested in obtaining the rights to the entire series.

I have been bickering back and forth with PA for several days already, and they are still refusing. They wrote to me and said, "we often allow authors out of contracts, when they present a valid reason. "

I have several valid reasons:

1. They don't stock PA books in the stores in Canada. (At least not where I'm living).

2. I have made just over $3.00 in book sales for the one book. And that's over a year and a half time. Combined, my sales for the two books have been around $33.00.

3. I know if my books were published with the right company, they would have a chance of being successful.

I sent these reasons to them, and they are still refusing. Anyone else out there had the same experiences?

If they continue to refuse me, I'll have to get a lawyer.

Be nice to see responses to this, but it'll go Poof soon.
:popcorn:

Afinerosesheis

07-26-2007, 12:02 AM

it already went *poof*

JulieB

07-26-2007, 12:02 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22423

Be nice to see responses to this, but it'll go Poof soon.
:popcorn:

That was fast.

Mel

07-26-2007, 12:05 AM

Somebody has a fast finger on the mouse. :)

Mel

07-26-2007, 12:10 AM

She signed a contract with Publish Britannica in 2005. How did that work when PA could no longer use that name? Did the authors have to sign a new one?

CatSlave

07-26-2007, 12:57 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22425&sid=1ae21c5b95f5733908d540c395fb3ecb

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: Has anyone else had this problem?

I'm currently in the middle of a dispute with PA. I had two books published with them, both which are sequels.

I just completed another book in one of the sequels. I have other publishers interested in obtaining the rights to the books. I've asked PA several times if they will give me my rights back, which they refuse. They wrote and told me, "we often allow authors out of contracts, when they present a valid reason."

Well, I presented several valid reasons:

1. I can't get my books stocked in stores in Canada. (At least not where I live).

2. I have made $3.36 on my first book. It's been out for a year and a half. I've put lots of money into making a go out of it, but have lost money due to the fact, I have to pay to have the book stocked in stores.

3. I would have more success with my books, if given the chance to try a different publisher.

They obviously think these are not valid enough reasons. Anyone have any advice?

Mel

07-26-2007, 01:38 AM

She used a different subject title. :) Wonder if she has a bunch of them set to go and will keep posting this until they ban her.

According to her intro at PA, Charlie is a she. Hard to get the gender right when the name says male. Didn't know until I checked her past posts.

CatSlave

07-26-2007, 01:46 AM

Oops!
I'm glad to see SHE'S persistent. :)

I have one of those boy-or-girl names, too.

Afinerosesheis

07-26-2007, 01:48 AM

Won't be long. Another *poof* and a banning.

Afinerosesheis

07-26-2007, 01:49 AM

James Elders

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 5614
http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?p=250896#250896)Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=250896) Charlie,

You have posted your complaint enough. Now quit making threats and go get your lawyer.

Tilly

07-26-2007, 01:55 AM

Wow. That's like Infocentre speak.

Though I doubt PA actually wants her to get a lawyer.

Marie Pacha

07-26-2007, 01:58 AM

Ahh, but she's here too: http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22427

JulieB

07-26-2007, 02:13 AM

Oh, I love this (from the above post):

Enen though I have sent valid reasons, they still have refused me.
Today they wrote:"We responded to this, and refuted all of this, yesterday. We hope you got our response, because we're far too busy with thousands of happy new authors to do it again!"

Hope that person is holding on to those e-mails.

Jersey Chick

07-26-2007, 02:17 AM

She's persistent. I wonder how long it'll be before the pack jumps all over her like a monkey on a cupcake?

Mel

07-26-2007, 02:30 AM

And gone again.

CatSlave

07-26-2007, 02:34 AM

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/primary/chimp-peeking-through-leaves.jpg

Komnena

07-26-2007, 02:44 AM

Here, have a nice chocolate cupcake.

CatSlave

07-26-2007, 03:26 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22430&sid=2a36c354a0f9d1234e73db9f68f46282

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: Returnability

Can someone (Dick, the all knowing) shed some light on the returnability issue? How long have others had to wait until their books are showing up as returnable if ordered through Ingrams? I am told from PA that the retailers have to update their computers but the retailers say they have never heard of such a thing. I have contacted PA asking to have the process explained and I am sure they will, as they have been very helpful in the past. I have three retailers who want to do signings buit the books must be returnable first. Have others had this problem?

Jersey Chick

07-26-2007, 03:35 AM

Wow - I guess the pack has the day off. I wonder if Charlie's been banned already? It kind of looks like it.

CatSlave

07-26-2007, 04:01 AM

Wow - I guess the pack has the day off.
They got distracted by the cupcakes. :D

JCT

07-26-2007, 04:05 AM

She's persistent. I wonder how long it'll be before the pack jumps all over her like a monkey on a cupcake?

:D
Never heard that one before!

emsuniverse

07-26-2007, 04:22 AM

the retailers say they have never heard of such a thing.[/B]

It's either listed as returnable or not - updating a computer has nothing to do with it.

FWIW, that lady's book is returnable.

emsuniverse

07-26-2007, 04:25 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22433

XXX ask me to post my review of her book on Amazon. It has been a while since I ordered anything from Amazon. I tried to give review for this book, but it would not allow me to do so. I gave one on the author's message board, review board and PA. I cannot afford to buy books to review books.I wish I could. Evidently, we have to buy something from them, even if we own a book already, to be able to post review. To me this is wrong, this keeps us from giving each other reviews on Amazon, which might make them miss a sale.

I don't know what to say to this one... But it's smart on Amazon's part.

JCT

07-26-2007, 05:05 AM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22433

I don't know what to say to this one... But it's smart on Amazon's part.

I noticed they started doing this...not sure when they started.

brianm

07-26-2007, 05:34 AM

I noticed they started doing this...not sure when they started.

Honestly, how many 5 star PA author reviews does a PA book need? It's not like it's going to sell any better. No one but PAMB members and the author's friends and family know it exists.

Afinerosesheis

07-26-2007, 05:37 AM

They could DL a short for .49. That's what I did at first.

WOW 500 posts!

Queen of Swords

07-26-2007, 05:42 AM

Pipesmoker didn't get no respect (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22411)

A new author posted this query :

ok so PA gave me and i guess they give them to everyone but the free website um what is it called ummmmm, publishedauthors.net however i cant access it because i am using IE 7 and it says you cant use that what am i suppose to do is there a way around this with out uninstalling my IE my computer is not very stable.

Pipesmoker replied to say,

Is that the way you want to present yourself as a writer? A professional never forgets that everything she writes reflects on all the other things she has written. Whether you hope to have a career in writing or just see it as a temporary lark, remember that everything on the public board is available to the entire world, including all the people who might consider buying your book. I'm sure you don't want to come across as a kid sending a text message to a buddy.

New author wasn't going to take that lying down.

Well, I didn't think that I came across as such. However I must say that I have found most people on this board very supportive and kind but I am finding that the older members are very blunt, rude and some of them who are like that their comments are very hurting toward people.

Thank you Dick for your comment however I did not ask for you to review my question and to give your opinion on how I asked it, I was asking for something else, but thank you again

I wonder if any other older members will chime in on this one.

JCT

07-26-2007, 05:47 AM

Pipesmoker didn't get no respect (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22411)

A new author posted this query :

Pipesmoker replied to say,

New author wasn't going to take that lying down.

I wonder if any other older members will chime in on this one.

Paging arm chair guy and Elders!

Jersey Chick

07-26-2007, 05:49 AM

I can imagine who they are and what they'll say... **takes envelope, holds it to forehead a la Carnak** Hmmm....

OK - I can't think of anything really witty, but I'm sure Mr. Elders will chime in and call her a baby or a liberal or something equally lame. French lady will add her two cents in French (and maybe suggest that OP should treat her to lunch - nah, probably not) and Deep Thoughts from the Barcalounger will blame it all on the democrats.

**rips open envelope**

drum roll, please...

Afinerosesheis

07-26-2007, 05:56 AM

It's either listed as returnable or not - updating a computer has nothing to do with it.

FWIW, that lady's book is returnable.

It doesn't really matter in the scheme of things, but how can I check to see if my book is returnable? I went through all this with PA and B&N and I was just curious.

French lady will add her two cents in French (and maybe suggest that OP should treat her to lunch - nah, probably not) and Deep Thoughts from the Barcalounger will blame it all on the democrats.

**rips open envelope**

drum roll, please...

Jersey, this is absolutely hilarious! Don't forget that the "OP always shows their true colors in the end! C'est La Vie?"

I don't know French, just took a stab at it.

DaveKuzminski

07-26-2007, 06:01 AM

French lady is merely the female version of Shemp. I'm waiting for her to follow in his footsteps by pretending to be dead so she can be resurrected. Then all the PA newbies can be impressed by her. Soon after, they'll toss rose petals at her, only it won't be to honor her. It'll only be so they can cut down on the odor of the fresh fertilizer she spews.

Jersey Chick

07-26-2007, 06:03 AM

That I would like to see - I missed the Shemp faked death, though I did read about it in my AW lurker days.

CatSlave

07-26-2007, 07:01 AM

So now we have the Three Stooges AND their backup band, the Three Scrooges?

*sheesh*

DaveKuzminski

07-26-2007, 07:06 AM

So now we have the Three Stooges AND their backup band, the Three Scrooges?

*sheesh*

Actually, I picture them more (because of the monkey and cupcake comment earlier) as the three monkeys who say no evil, hear no evil, and see no evil, at least when it comes to PA.

CatSlave

07-26-2007, 07:09 AM

Actually, I picture them more (because of the monkey and cupcake comment earlier) as the three monkeys who say no evil, hear no evil, and see no evil, at least when it comes to PA.
Excellent observation.
Someone who is handy with Photoshop could have some fun with that. :D

Not that I'm suggesting anything evil, or anything.

Mel

07-26-2007, 07:14 AM

French lady will meet you for lunch, but she never eats lunch. Not ever. Or so she claims.

I think I troll the board over there too much. :D

emsuniverse

07-26-2007, 07:29 AM

It doesn't really matter in the scheme of things, but how can I check to see if my book is returnable? I went through all this with PA and B&N and I was just curious.

My family owns a bookstore. I just look it up on their system. :)

emsuniverse

07-26-2007, 07:30 AM

Excellent observation.
Someone who is handy with Photoshop could have some fun with that. :D

Not that I'm suggesting anything evil, or anything.

Not at all. No.

Damn, why don't I have Photoshop?!

Jersey Chick

07-26-2007, 07:55 AM

I wish I could take credit for the monkey on a cupcake - but I actually have to give that to the writers on Everybody Loves Raymond.

And so far, Karnak (I know, I spelled his name wrong the last time. I knew it didn't look right - oops) is a little off the mark. No response yet.

I like the three monkeys, though. Perfect ;)

Mel

07-26-2007, 05:46 PM

The waiting game (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22430)
Well lets see if this answers your question.
What I have figured out is that PA does not make your book returnable until you have so many sales. Which I've determined is 200 since that's what they believe is all you will sell
Now about the waiting for a response from PA author support. Keep waiting, becasue if they do decide that its worth their time, they might respond when they get around to it. I've been waiting weeks for them to respond to some questions I have.

Infocrap chimes in
Each and every statement you make here is false.

Man, it must be nice to be infallible. Reminds me of my ex.

Marie Pacha

07-26-2007, 05:51 PM

You were married to the same guy I was Mel?

JCT

07-26-2007, 06:07 PM

The waiting game (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22430)

Infocrap chimes in

Man, it must be nice to be infallible. Reminds me of my ex.

Wow, the Hammer of the Gods..err Miranda and Larry, that is. They say it, It Must Be True. I bow to my arrogant vanity press overlords!

Mel

07-26-2007, 06:11 PM

You were married to the same guy I was Mel?

Hope not! He killed his next ex. And PA likes to kill any hope their authors have of getting their books sold. After the author has bought them, of course. PA wants its pound of flesh and then some.

Jersey Chick

07-26-2007, 06:33 PM

I gues Infomonster knows better than the poster whether his questions have been answered or not. Ya gotta be kiddin' me...

JCT

07-26-2007, 06:50 PM

Well, you know Miranda knows everything! Bookstores don't actually sell books! PA's books always fit them like a glove and resonate with their audiences.

I wonder what it is like when when she gets home:

"How was your day at work, dear?"
"Oh fine, the usual. Crushed some dreams, blighted some hopes, you know, the usual."

Afinerosesheis

07-26-2007, 07:26 PM

It doesn't matter how many thousands of happy authors there are, each e-mail should be answered in a timely, professional manner. And infocenter needs to go to Charm School!

This is what I think. When you are a new author and your book is going through all those stages you get the best service. After your book is released then you sort of get kicked to the curb as far as import to make room for all the noobs. Give or take a little depending on how many books you buy...

TwentyFour

07-26-2007, 07:30 PM

Did anyone know that ALL PA books are non-returnable in Canada and have no discount to stores at all?

Apparently the US is the only one they allow the generous 5% to.

brianm

07-26-2007, 08:02 PM

Another "happy" PA author...

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22430

Well lets see if this answers your question.
What I have figured out is that PA does not make your book returnable until you have so many sales. Which I've determined is 200 since that's what they believe is all you will sell
Now about the waiting for a response from PA author support. Keep waiting, becasue if they do decide that its worth their time, they might respond when they get around to it. I've been waiting weeks for them to respond to some questions I have.

And infomonster responds…

Tim Quinton,

Each and every statement you make here is false.

And from one of the koolaid drinkers comes this gem…

Well, let me put it this way...

Our publisher has tens of thousands of authors, and more signing up every day. When you consider that alone and in addition to how busy the office must really be to accommodate such a large number, you will get periods where you may not get quick answers or the help you need. It doesn't mean that PA doesn't care about its authors, but it does mean that sometimes patience is in order.

I am not sure either what the return policy is. I really don't think about returns. I am just hoping that my readers like what they read, because I enjoy writing so much.

My advice would be to touch base with author support again if you don't happen to hear from them in a week. My experience with them has been good.

Dave.C.Robinson

07-26-2007, 08:39 PM

PA's got a simple way around the issue of bookstores and returns: If they don't sell to bookstores, they don't have to worry about it. Gosh, that was easy.

brianm

07-26-2007, 09:48 PM

Mr. Harpe requests an explanation. This thread could turn out to be interesting. I doubt infomonster will tell the truth.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22430

Info center, would you mind explaining one more time what returnability means, and what PA's guidelines for the book stores are.

Please explain that there isn't a bunch of red tape for the bookstores to be able to return unsold copies, all they have to do is send them back, and that they won't lose any money by doing so. And let everyone know that it only takes a very short time for each bookstore to be put into the system once they order books.

Perhaps that will better allow some to understand how this works, and will help them explain the process to the book stores.

Thanks

Sheryl Nantus

07-26-2007, 09:54 PM

Mr. Harpe requests an explanation. This thread could turn out to be interesting. I doubt infomonster will tell the truth.

I doubt Mr. Harpe will question any answer that's given. He's one of PA's biggest supporters, IIRC...

meanwhile, in another area, Charlie's reposted her request to be set free of the contract. Infocenter put up some blathering excuse about "accidentally" deleting her previous posts.

wait for the mob to appear, pitchforks and torches a-blazing.

Jersey Chick

07-26-2007, 09:59 PM

Ha - I can't get into the PAMB now - must be one of those rare times when it's down for updating at 4 am. Frederick must be in a different time zone than the rest of the east coast, because it sure isn't 4 am here. ;)

check that - it's back.

Mel

07-26-2007, 10:01 PM

Charlie's back (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22441)
Dear Ms Richard:

Yesterday when we were removing multiple posts, we mistakenly removed your last post as well. If you would like to re-post it, we would be happy to respond to it.

Have a nice day,
Support
PublishAmerica Support
support@publishamerica.com
---------------------------

I'm currently in the middle of a dispute with PA. I had two books published with them, both which are sequels.

I just completed another book in one of the sequels. I have other publishers interested in obtaining the rights to the books. I've asked PA several times if they will give me my rights back, which they refuse. They wrote and told me, "we often allow authors out of contracts, when they present a valid reason."

Well, I gave them several valid reasons:

1. I can't get my books stocked in the stores in Canada. They don't take PA books.

2. I have made $3.36 on my books. It's been out for a year and a half. I've put lots of money into making a go of it, but have lost money due to the fact, I have to pay to have the book stocked in stores.

3. I would have more success with my books, if I could sell them as a package deal, to a different publisher.

4. I have a friend who got their rights back for the same reasons I'm asking, and PA had no problem with it. Why do they discriminate against who gets them returned and who doesn't?

They obviously think these are not valid enough reasons.

Why keep my rights for another 5 years, when the books are not selling anyway?

Removing multiple posts, indeed! ::snort:: What about the first one you removed? I saw two of her posts, was there three?

Now you're going to answer her on the board?

Marie Pacha

07-26-2007, 10:28 PM

hmmm, venus is going to write B & N about the returnability issue? I'm pretty sure they don't want that response posted.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22430

Marie Pacha

07-26-2007, 10:30 PM

They removed the Charlie's back post too.

Mel

07-26-2007, 10:34 PM

They removed the Charlie's back post too.

Watch the bouncing ball.

JCT

07-26-2007, 10:57 PM

Can someone (Dick, the all knowing) shed some light on the returnability issue?

Ha ha, let's see if he answers.
:popcorn:

James D. Macdonald

07-27-2007, 12:17 AM

Perhaps that will better allow some to understand how this works, and will help them explain the process to the book stores.

Explain the process to bookstores? Explain to bookstores what they've been doing for a living every day since they opened their doors?

Why do they imagine that bookstores don't already know in a great deal of detail exactly how returnability works?

e.dashwood

07-27-2007, 01:43 AM

The one and only - well its not a concern, its a minor detail - courtesy copies for reviewers don't seem to be high on their list. I realize they can't make $ from free books for reviewers, but it is a valid promotional tactic.
I've not made repeated efforts to beg the odd free book from them, so cannot claim they are unresponsive - just one really, they may yet get to. I wish they had an up-front policy - (like one free to an approved reviewer, and the second one to a reviewer at author's cost, and with author's ok, or something like that.) Reviews are an important part of sales, JMHO of course.

The poster is right on with this sentiment. My editor told me that reviews--in addition to media appearances--will be the main sales engine for my book. My publisher, of course, will send a free copy to any reviewer I request. I won't even have to tap into my contractual supply of 25 free author copies. At any signing/reading I do, my publisher will ship copies of my book at no expense to me--or to the bookstore since they will all be returnable and significantly discounted, i.e., wholesale. No measly 5 percent. And that's in addition to them sending out review copies and advanced reading copies to a big slew of potential reviewers without my even asking. They have a national marketing and sales department working hard at these things.

I shouldn't have to add that unlike PA, my publisher is one of those that is interested in promoting and selling my book. That's how they make money.

As far as I can see, PA is close to an Amway multi-level marketing type of operation. In addition to selling books to authors. They also make money by getting authors to sucker in other authors to whom they sell more books. I'm surprised they don't have some kind of referral program (do they?) where they give you some benefit--e.g., discounted books--for referring new authors.

Jersey Chick

07-27-2007, 01:48 AM

I wouldn't be surprised at all. After all, how do cults keep their numbers? By recruiting.

James D. Macdonald

07-27-2007, 02:11 AM

Any real publisher sends tons of review copies, well in advance of publication, to a wide range of reviewers without the reviewers' specific request.

Komnena

07-27-2007, 02:40 AM

Any real publisher sends tons of review copies, well in advance of publication, to a wide range of reviewers without the reviewers' specific request.

And to bookstores as well.

JCT

07-27-2007, 03:38 AM

Afinerosesheis

07-27-2007, 05:47 AM

I contacted the woman who asked about returns. She is a nice lady, too nice for PA, and I explained how returns work, using her book as an example. I didn't tell her what I thought of PA, just how the discount on her book, compared to one of similliar cost by Gene Wolfe. After a couple of a emails back in forth she said: "I'm grateful for this info; I know now that my book will never she shelved". May she do better next tim.

It was nice of you to let her know the truth instead of her wondering about it and getting her query posts zapped.

I asked PA to send a review copy to Fresh Fiction awhile back. I have no idea if they have sent it or not. They said they would, but I haven't heard a thing.

JimmyD1318

07-27-2007, 05:54 AM

Mel

07-27-2007, 07:28 PM

On Returnability (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22430)
Here's what Author Support e-mailed to us on 14 Sep 2005 in regards to returnability:

PublishAmerica Makes All Books Returnable

Dear Author,

Every hour of every business day, bookstores nationwide order and stock a new PublishAmerica title. The store manager has decided to stock it because he believes that the book will sell. As a result, thousands of PublishAmerica books are sitting proudly on bookstore shelves all across the fruited plain.

And they do sell. They sell regardless of whether the bookstore can return unsold copies.

A bookstore's decision to stock a book is generally made by the manager. A bookstore typically stocks just one percent of the 190,000 new books that are published each year. For bookstores to stock all books published would mean adding 20 feet of new shelf space every day, seven days per week. Therefore bookstore managers must be selective on what books they choose.

Sometimes they base the decision on whether the book is returnable. If the book is not returnable, they sometimes choose not to stock it.

Many of our titles are already returnable. We have been running an experiment with an increasing number of our titles. It appears that once a bookstore has established a book's selling potential, and stocked the book, the store manager's decision is proven right: PublishAmerica books are competitive, high quality, reliably selling books.

Therefore, as of next month, we are making all of our books returnable!

Although many of our titles are currently stocked in stores, you may soon find even more bookstore managers inclined to order and stock your book now that there is zero risk involved for them.

Please bear with us as we must do this gradually, in order to enable our wholesaler Ingram to accurately activate the new status on roughly eleven thousand books that are currently in print, starting with the titles that are selling more than 40 copies in September (libraries and individuals who order more than 40 copies this month are receiving a 40 pct discount; phone orders only at 301 695 1707).

Also, there will be a few exceptions initially, such as full-color picture books, and for the time being this revolutionary experiment will be limited to U.S. bookstores only. We will review the results after a few months and see what, if any, adjustments must be made.

Congratulations on being part of this exciting and revolutionary adventure.

--PublishAmerica Author Support

Bold mine.

I think I'm going to go sit in a dark corner somewhere to clear the crap out of my head.

JCT

07-27-2007, 07:34 PM

On Returnability (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22430)

Bold mine.

I think I'm going to go sit in a dark corner somewhere to clear the crap out of my head.

That'll be their usually 5% discount on returnable books. Won't sell. Have some more kool-aid, author.

Komnena

07-27-2007, 07:44 PM

Selling 40 copies in a month is an "exciting and revolutionary adventure"? I could write a family history and do better than that by just selling to distant cousins. Of course, once all 250 who wanted copies had copies and had bought all the gift copies they needed my sales would hit a crashing halt. Too, I'd probably only be able to sell the things at the big family reunion and as they were being sold to family probably would not sell them for much more than it took to get my money back from Lulu.

tlblack

07-27-2007, 07:48 PM

PublishAmerica books are competitive, high quality, reliably selling books.

*Wonders how many lies PA can tell in one sentence. The books are not competitive in any way since they aren't stocked in bookstores, (unless the author begged the store manager to let them consign a few copies) High quality: makes me laugh since I have the results of that "high quality" sitting on my bookshelf. Reliably selling: to who? Your friends and family, and even they aren't reliable.

Sheryl Nantus

07-27-2007, 07:50 PM

what the heck is a "fruited plain"?

Dave.C.Robinson

07-27-2007, 07:52 PM

Now that's just flat out stupid.

I say that with malice aforethought from the perspective of having managed a chain bookstore. One: Bookstore managers are NOT in charge of determining which books they stock. What generally happens is that the Order department for the chain decides which books they will buy and provides initial allotments to the stores. Depending on the size of the store, they likely will not get all the books the chain carries. Managers can and will make minor changes based on what they know sells in their store, but that's about it. There is a big difference between special ordering a book for a specific customer and ordering books to put on the shelf for any customer.

I also considered non-returnable books very much second class citizens. They were usually of poorer quality print-wise and higher priced than regular books. The only non-returnable books we regularly carried were what we called "promo" which were usually remainders.

I wouldn't call going to an industry standard policy like making books returnable exactly revolutionary. However adding a restocking fee that's greater than the discount could be considered a revolution. Good plan that, make it so that it costs the bookseller as much to return one book as they would make from selling two.

Publish America books don't go into bookstores because bookstores are in business to make money, not to help PA make money at their own expense. In most cases it's actually cheaper in the long run for a store to just cut PA a check for the full cover price of a PA book and write it off as a loss than it would be to stock it on the shelves for three months then return it.

Komnena

07-27-2007, 08:11 PM

what the heck is a "fruited plain"?

maybe they're growing strawberries on said plain? Maybe some apple trees?

Marie Pacha

07-27-2007, 08:17 PM

fruited plain is a phrase from America the Beautiful

"O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain! "

Komnena

07-27-2007, 08:22 PM

Now that's just flat out stupid.
.

Is it stupid if your business plan is only to sell to the authors and people who personally know the author, instead of the public at large?

Sparhawk

07-27-2007, 08:44 PM

Is it stupid if your business plan is only to sell to the authors and people who personally know the author, instead of the public at large?

Actually, it's quite brilliant as a business plan. <<Putting MBA to use>>. They're model assures them of making a profit, albiet small on each Happy Author. Imagine a sales force that's willing to sell for only 8 percent and provide you, the company with 50- 100 HOT leads for each product. If the breakeven cost is 20 units and the average product sale per unit is 75. Factor in about a ten percent loss on those that don't sell to their hot (Family and frends) list. I, as a business owner, have made money.

PA, for all the wrong we assign to it, is a money maker. I don't condone what they do, I don't approve of what they do but man you have to give them the 'big brass testicles' award for putting the scheme together and making it work. They may be failed writers, but they're cunning business men. They saw a potential opportunity and tuned it into a cash cow.

As I said in an earlier post, it's so wickedly beautiful in concept and execution.

Mel

07-27-2007, 08:53 PM

what the heck is a "fruited plain"?

It's where PA resides. As in, fruited, fruity, like :crazy:

LloydBrown

07-27-2007, 09:00 PM

model assures them of making a profit, albiet small on each Happy Author. Imagine a sales force that's willing to sell for only 8 percent and provide you, the company with 50- 100 HOT leads for each product. If the breakeven cost is 20 units and the average product sale per unit is 75. Factor in about a ten percent loss on those that don't sell to their hot (Family and frends) list. I, as a business owner, have made money.

All true, but here's the rub: it only works in volume. To sustain their staff, they have to have x number of titles coming in. If their numbers fall, they can't afford staff. With fewer staff, they can afford to put out fewer titles...with fewer titles, they can afford less staff. A change in your operation's volume, whether it's growth or a downward spiral, is hard to manage, and it's easy to make a misstep that can cost you everything.

VeggieChick

07-27-2007, 09:07 PM

It's where PA resides. As in, fruited, fruity, like :crazy:

LOL. I was thinking the same thing!

Dave.C.Robinson

07-27-2007, 09:28 PM

Is it stupid if your business plan is only to sell to the authors and people who personally know the author, instead of the public at large?

I was actually referring to their statements regarding how bookstores work. Their own business plan is perfectly viable. Immoral and unethical as hell IMHO but viable.

ResearchGuy

07-27-2007, 09:44 PM

All true, but here's the rub: it only works in volume. To sustain their staff, they have to have x number of titles coming in. If their numbers fall, they can't afford staff. With fewer staff, they can afford to put out fewer titles...with fewer titles, they can afford less staff. A change in your operation's volume, whether it's growth or a downward spiral, is hard to manage, and it's easy to make a misstep that can cost you everything.
Unlike a real publisher, PA cannot promote its backlist (which is a fine cushion for a legitimate publisher with a quality backlist) except by flogging authors to buy more of their own books. There is no other audience for the books. But a real publisher with a real backlist of books that people want to read has other options -- options that are directed to the book-buying/reading public.

One related example: have you seen the attractive displays of classics at Barnes & Noble? Nicely printed and bound paperbacks, favorably priced for the consumer, prominently arrayed (at least in my local B&N), and quite enticing for discerning readers. (I am referring specifically to B&N's own line of classics, as of course B&N is both publisher and bookseller.) Or the periodic re-promotion of (for example) the entire line of Janet Evanovich books. Never, ever going to be an option for PA. For PA, nothing but flogging the authors to buy more, more!

And then there are the tables of "summer reading," or "back to school books," or . . . (whatever the seasonal or event-driven promotion is) at pretty much every bookstore (the very places in which PA books are NOT stocked).

--Ken

janetbellinger

07-27-2007, 09:59 PM

The only advice I can give the people who think they are getting a good deal by signing with PA is to think very carefully before signing on as to whether this will further your writing career or not. Do you really want to rope all your friends and relatives into buying your book (when you think of it, do you really want them reading it?) You'd probably sell more books via the home party route (which I abhor.) Publish America has all the finesse of a bull in a china shop. I will not be selling my novels to anybody if it does not further my literary career. Signing on with Publish America is dooming yourself to having your friends ask you years down the road (when you know you made a mistake,) about the book you published. You blush, and look down and say, "Well, that was a mistake.) It is not a good feeling, my friends. Better to remain unpublished, in my opinion.

DaveKuzminski

07-27-2007, 10:05 PM

fruited plain is a phrase from America the Beautiful

"O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain! "

It's an attempt by PA's owners to wrap themselves in the American flag and pose as patriots. It's the same ploy they use when they describe themselves as a Christian publishing company. They're trying desperately to disguise their real identity as a vanity publisher.

Sparhawk

07-27-2007, 10:06 PM

All true, but here's the rub: it only works in volume. To sustain their staff, they have to have x number of titles coming in. If their numbers fall, they can't afford staff. With fewer staff, they can afford to put out fewer titles...with fewer titles, they can afford less staff. A change in your operation's volume, whether it's growth or a downward spiral, is hard to manage, and it's easy to make a misstep that can cost you everything.

Agreed, that's why they Publish Anything and everything they can get their hands on. Quality is not the issue. If I were PA I'd have done an operational analysis pertaining to how much volume I can produce based on a fixed number of employees and assets and then model that and do specific case studies for any increase or decrease in volume. I'd find the operational thresholds of my plan and manage to those limits. I can only assume that Meiners and Clopper have done the same thing. They know the bare minumin they have to produce to cover their costs and make profit, they also probably know what the maximum output they can garner from a specific number of "editors", designers and so forth. Well, I can't claim they've done that, but it's data I'd want in my hand as I ran my operation. Not that I ever would.

CatSlave

07-27-2007, 10:39 PM

They know the bare minumin they have to produce to cover their costs and make profit, they also probably know what the maximum output they can garner from a specific number of "editors", designers and so forth. Well, I can't claim they've done that, but it's data I'd want in my hand as I ran my operation. Not that I ever would.
I'm certain your analysis is very, very accurate.

CatSlave

07-27-2007, 10:50 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22430&sid=4e3362749a7df3c8a86e4ccc27ee7c9c

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:55 am

from PA:“Please bear with us as we must do this gradually, in order to enable our wholesaler Ingram to accurately activate the new status on roughly eleven thousand books that are currently in print, starting with the titles that are selling more than 40 copies in September (libraries and individuals who order more than 40 copies this month are receiving a 40 pct discount; phone orders only at 301 695 1707).”

As this was sent out in September of 2005, many now posting here missed it, simply because we came along later than that.

I can see where this statement could be interpreted by some to be another sales pitch, in which the authors were told that by buying 40 copies “this month” their books would be among the first made returnable. This may have had no bearing on it, but it could have been worded differently or sent out at a later date, just in order to not have any misunderstanding about it. This is the kind of thing that lets the PA bashers have a field day.

I would hope that this has changed, and that now each book is returnable as part of the overall package as soon as it is published.

From what I can read elsewhere, many bookstore managers say they are having a hard time getting “put into the PA (Ingram, ?)” computer system, and that they must be in the system in order to return a book. I have no way of knowing if this is true or not, but if the original email came out almost 2 years ago, surely that has been enough time to iron out all of the bugs and to get the computer programs written so that no bookstore should have this problem.

Going along with everything else, I see no reason why Infocenter could not post here a complete statement, including all of the guidelines, of the returnability of PA books, so that we could print it and show it to any interested bookstore manager. All they have to do is say the books are returnable, here’s what the store manager must do, and then live up to it. If there is a problem with a computer program, tell everyone up front about it and how to work around it so that the books can be returned.

Yes, I know that PA books are returnable, but if there is a problem in doing so, and if that problem is still keeping book stores from stocking books, then it should be resolved. If it is a misconception that is still being held over from when the books weren’t returnable, then PA should undergo a campaign to let all bookstores everywhere know that it is no longer true, and tell them exactly how to go about returning books. This would help all PA authors a great deal, and I have to continue to believe that whatever is good for the PA authors is good for PA as a company, and that they understand that.

DaveKuzminski

07-27-2007, 10:53 PM

I doubt if PA's owners actually did any real analysis other than to notice that if they had X number of employees, they wouldn't have to do the editing, cover design, and actual publishing and could sit back and let others do it for a minimum wage. Then they got that many employees and the input increased, so they just kept hiring to keep up with the input. No real analysis involved. Now that their input is slowing, they're releasing employees and increasing the number of books before granting a discount.

Heck, even a cave man could do that just as well.

CatSlave

07-27-2007, 10:57 PM

Don,
Very well put.

There isn't a bunch of red tape for the bookstores to be able to
return unsold copies, all they have to do is send them back, and
they won't lose any money by doing so. And bookstores are
already "in the system" even before they order books.

This is books ordered from Ingram, of course.

JulieB

07-27-2007, 11:17 PM

Excuse me while I get some popcorn...

Very well put, Infocenter2, I couldn't have said it better myself. Well, maybe I could, and if I had, I'm sure you would have used it just as you did the first one.

I think with this answer you have furthered your own reputation for curt replies that actually do not address the problem. You might also be dellighted to learn that in your effort to appear clever, you have accomplished exactly the opposite.

I have no problem with the return factor of PA books, but some of these people do, and an honest, well thought out reply that was composed of the truth would have been in order.

Perhaps, infocenter, you see yourself as so far above the rest of us that you don't have to answer any questions, or perhaps you just think this is a great game and that you are the funniest comedian on the face of the planet. I doubt that the people who ask quesitions about concerns such as this one would agree with you.

Personally, I don't see you as above us at all, and at any time in the past 40 years someone in your job grade and position would have been answering to someone in mine. Actually, you would have been answering to someone a couple of levels below mine, but you get the point.

Thanks for your reply, now would you care to try again and see if you really can answer the questions put to you?

CatSlave

07-27-2007, 11:23 PM

I imagine Miranda and Larry's panties are in a bunch, eh?

Komnena

07-27-2007, 11:25 PM

I was actually referring to their statements regarding how bookstores work. Their own business plan is perfectly viable. Immoral and unethical as hell IMHO but viable.

Agreed on their ethics and no argument about the wrongness of their bookstore statements, which you unquestionably know much more about than I do. Their stupidity is another matter. If they were truly stupid they'd be less morally culpable. I believe their comments are deliberately crafted to deceive their authors. I find it hard to believe that after all their dealings with bookstores they don't know why bookstores won't order their books or that returnability and big discounts aren't standard publishing practice among reputable publishers.

Mel

07-27-2007, 11:31 PM

Going along with everything else, I see no reason why Infocenter could not post here a complete statement, including all of the guidelines, of the returnability of PA books, so that we could print it and show it to any interested bookstore manager. All they have to do is say the books are returnable, here’s what the store manager must do, and then live up to it. If there is a problem with a computer program, tell everyone up front about it and how to work around it so that the books can be returned.

Yes, because bookstore managers don't know what PA knows about selling books. Computer program problem? This is with the bookstores? Sheesh, I'm sure the employees know how to work the computers or they wouldn't have a job there.

Yes, I know that PA books are returnable, but if there is a problem in doing so, and if that problem is still keeping book stores from stocking books, then it should be resolved. If it is a misconception that is still being held over from when the books weren’t returnable, then PA should undergo a campaign to let all bookstores everywhere know that it is no longer true, and tell them exactly how to go about returning books. This would help all PA authors a great deal, and I have to continue to believe that whatever is good for the PA authors is good for PA as a company, and that they understand that.

Because bookstores are clueless about how to return books?

Mind boggling, truly mind boggling!

It's your right to continue to believe whatever you want, but the truth is, PA is already doing what is good for them.

Marie Pacha

07-27-2007, 11:34 PM

Who's got the popcorn?

Dave.C.Robinson

07-27-2007, 11:36 PM

I have root beer. :)

Marie Pacha

07-27-2007, 11:38 PM

I have some vanilla ice cream, we could make root beer floats!

Mel

07-27-2007, 11:38 PM

I have lots of popcorn. Want me to start tossing it in the microwave? It's buttered.

Mel

07-27-2007, 11:39 PM

I haven't had a root beer float in forever. Sounds good!

CatSlave

07-27-2007, 11:40 PM

Better make extra for Jimmy.
You know how much he LOVES popcorn!

Marie Pacha

07-27-2007, 11:40 PM

Yes please.

I think it's awfully nice of them to have a matinee every Friday.

DaveKuzminski

07-27-2007, 11:41 PM

PA has known since its inception that it's a vanity publisher. That was proven by their own statements in a published interview when it was stated that they came up with "traditional publisher" in order to set them apart from the vanity publishers. If PA wasn't a vanity publisher, then there was no need to set them apart from the vanity publishers. That was further documented in arbitration when Willem admitted that authors are their target market. Every statement since, including their inaccurate and false statements about bookstores, has been for the purpose of disguising their identity as a vanity publisher because that is the real PA. They make their money selling books to their authors unlike real "commercial trade publishers" who make their money selling books to retailers who then sell to the reading public.

Mel

07-27-2007, 11:45 PM

I have 11 bags of popcorn. So, let's see, that's 10 for Jimmy and 1 for the rest of us to split. Right?

tlblack

07-27-2007, 11:55 PM

Wonder if infocenter will come up with some more false info or if they will just delete the thread? That's what they get for sending one of those outdated form letters as a reply.

Ok, now I have to go to the store and get some ice cream and root beer, popcorn, chocolate, marshmallows and graham crackers. All this talk about food has made me hungry. I already have a blackberry cobbler in the fridge if anyone would like some. (Of course if I eat all that, I might have to get a straight jacket for when the sugar kicks in.) *wink*

Marie Pacha

07-27-2007, 11:57 PM

That's about the right percentage Mel.

Afinerosesheis

07-28-2007, 12:00 AM

Count me in on the foodfest guys! Infocenter always says so much, but they never really say anything at all. Kudos to Mr. Harpe!

Sparhawk

07-28-2007, 12:03 AM

Will Mr. Harpe's password fail to work going forward? I suspect misINFOCENTER will come back with all guns blazing demanding an apology.

I just ordered pizza... willing to share for some root beer and popcorn.

Mel

07-28-2007, 12:13 AM

Junk food fest! I don't consider pizza junk food, it's just very, very tasty.

Oh, and PA is junky -- but not the good kind!

Mel

07-28-2007, 12:19 AM

Does anyone know how I find my catalog I.D. number? I'm trying to link my web site to my book for easy purchase but in the HTML code to do so, I need my catalog number which I am assuming is differant than my ISBN, anybody?

Pipe smoker's answer
Beats me, Steve, but I'd be willing to bet it's your ISBN. I have been known to be wrong though.

Okay, does anyone over there ever do a search? Do they know Google is their friend? I found out how to do it without any trouble. Or is it just me that pops everything into Google to see what comes up?

Publish America catalog I.D. # Google it!

CatSlave

07-28-2007, 12:27 AM

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject:

E. Don Harpe wrote:
Thanks for your reply, now would you care to try again and see if you really can answer the questions put to you?

Please accept our apologies. We meant to pay you a compliment
by quoting your words, but it looks like we lost track of the question.
We thought that you had answered the question pretty well.

It generally takes until the first of the following month for it to take effect.

Marie Pacha

07-28-2007, 12:28 AM

I feel faint.

Mel

07-28-2007, 12:28 AM

Apology? (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22430&start=15)
Please accept our apologies. We meant to pay you a compliment
by quoting your words, but it looks like we lost track of the question.
We thought that you had answered the question pretty well.

It generally takes until the first of the following month for it to take effect.

Is this a first?

Mel

07-28-2007, 12:29 AM

Oops, sorry, Cat!

CatSlave

07-28-2007, 12:32 AM

Great minds think alike. :)

I hope Harpe doesn't turn into a weenie like last time.
He's got them on the run now - time to move in for the kill.

Hot wings, anyone?

DaveKuzminski

07-28-2007, 12:37 AM

CatSlave

07-28-2007, 12:39 AM

I KNEW IT!
He chickened out yet again!

BOO, HISS !!

Marie Pacha

07-28-2007, 12:41 AM

Naw...he's just being polite, he's still asking them to explain.

DaveKuzminski

07-28-2007, 12:51 AM

I suspect the whole thing was fixed. PA must be facing a deepening financial crisis and is trying to put a better face on their Author Support so they'll have something to point to when new writers ask about how they handle problems.

endless rewrite

07-28-2007, 12:59 AM

Amazing isn't it how Mr Harpe can remain such a huge fan of a company that treats him and his fellow authors like crap. Clearly admitting he made a mistake is a lot more painful than sucking up and complaining at the same time.

Marie Pacha

07-28-2007, 01:25 AM

As I see it Mr. Harpe speaks his mind.

Each and every PA author who has eventually had issues with PA has reached that point on their own, for individual reasons; as I know I did. In all fairness to Mr. Harpe that time has not come, and it may never.

I have to give him credit for speaking up on a message board and being willing to criticize what he does see as wrong. He's one of the few there willing to do it, and he did it in a manner that finally got a respectful response.

endless rewrite

07-28-2007, 01:43 AM

There is no question that Mr Harpe speaks his mind. I have a problem with the fact that he presents PA as a good and valid choice to other authors while being aware of many of the problems publication with PA creates.

I cannot give him credit for recommending a company that he knows is fatally flawed. After all, he admitted himself that he kept pushing PA whilst keeping quiet about the fact that his book has a major formatting flaw that made it 'unreadable'. As he is keen to point out he is one of PAs keenest supporters and advocates. I would have a lot more time for him if he didn't know any better, but he does. I have all the sympathy and understanding in the world for the PA authors who don't know what they have landed in and who are struggling to come to terms with the reality of publishing with PA. A PA supporter like Mr Harpe who knows the terrible problems PA puts in the way of its authors and who still pushes them as a credible and worthwhile choice enables PA to do its dirty work.

Marie Pacha

07-28-2007, 01:44 AM

Sometime people try to improve a situation from within though...you know?

endless rewrite

07-28-2007, 01:47 AM

Despite the above I am always pleased to see anyone fighting back on the PAMB. There is a hell of a lot more negative, questioning and knowledgeable posts then there was even 12 months ago. The rah rah crowd are thankfully outnumbered by those with enquiring minds. The more people stand up and question the quicker they will leave PA and the negative press will grow. I really see the tide turning over there and that's good.

Marie Pacha

07-28-2007, 01:50 AM

yep

endless rewrite

07-28-2007, 01:50 AM

Sometime people try to improve a situation from within though...you know?

I do know that Marie but the sad truth is that the three stooges have no intention of improving how they do business, it suits them just fine. So the wishful thinking of those like Mr Harpe, that PA will listen to them and turn the company around to make it better for the authors is just that - wishful thinking.

DaveKuzminski

07-28-2007, 01:59 AM

PA is not going to change its operation until they face the certain threat of jail time. They've been operating on this level for over seven years. That apology was fake. In all likelihood, it was also meant to make Mr. Harpe appear to be the PA authors' savior. Evidently, he has managed to elevate himself beyond the others who are recognized by other PA authors as totally inaccurate and wrong much of the time.

All hail the new Shemp.

Marie Pacha

07-28-2007, 02:01 AM

I know, but at the same time I hope someone framed that apology.

Marie Pacha

07-28-2007, 02:02 AM

And Dave, I respectfully disagree regarding Mr. Harpe.

Mel

07-28-2007, 02:04 AM

Go here (http://www.publishamerica.com/link.htm)
"You can obtain your catalog id number by clicking on the Read Reviews link underneath your book description. Look at the website address. The number after the = is your catalog id number."

I hate to see grown men running around in circles. Come on, you guys read over here, help the poor man out.

CatSlave

07-28-2007, 02:09 AM

All hail the new Shemp.
:Headbang:

endless rewrite

07-28-2007, 02:26 AM

Dave, that makes sense. Look at how PA responds to him, totally different to the other authors who are publicly called misguided liars. Mr Harpe reinforces the PA mantra while looking like he is posing tough questions. If he keeps doing this and PA responds the way it does then how could anybody possible say that PA does not publicly answer criticism from its authors? Mr Harpe also goes on the pro PA war path on other forums where criticism is raised. Remember Mr Harpe said he didn't buy any of his own books and yet he got his second book published by them. Makes you wonder.

Marie Pacha

07-28-2007, 02:28 AM

I never bought any of my own books, and I have two published by them as well.

endless rewrite

07-28-2007, 02:31 AM

If you don't mind me asking, did the first one sell well Marie? I've seen different numbers touted about to get a second book from 50 - 100 sales. I'm curious about what they may be or of there is any rhyme or reason behind that decision.

Dave.C.Robinson

07-28-2007, 02:40 AM

For all we know it may be that the records are so poor that even though people are supposed to get a certain number of sales before a second book is accepted, they offer one and get it approved before they find out there was a first one that didn't make the quota.

Marie Pacha

07-28-2007, 02:47 AM

These are PA books; how can I be sure?

From indications; the second one is still outselling the first.

Everyone here has their own reasons for their opinions about PA. I respect your right to have yours, but the arbitration I filed for is based solely on how they treated me, the breaches of contracts I alledge, and what I can prove in regards to that. It has to be or I can't win it. And I shelled out $950 of my own money just to file it, and another $450 when the Arbitrator was assigned.

Every PA author has a contract similar to mine, but each and every author has a different reason for wanting to see their story published. It took nearly 3 1/2 years for the issues to appear regarding mine. You can't lump PA authors together in one big group and say they should all see what is apparent to you, or even to me.

For the record the second contract was signed within about 4 months of the first book being released.

Marie Pacha

07-28-2007, 02:50 AM

Oh, and I'm pretty sure I put way under 20 names on my list of friends and family to notify. I thought then and think now that's a pretty tacky way to ask someone to buy my work, but I wanted a few of them to see the announcement from the company.

Mel

07-28-2007, 02:51 AM

CatSlave

07-28-2007, 03:06 AM

Uncle Jim has stated here more than once that they accept what comes in each day up to a certain hour, I believe it is. After that the rest are turned down.

Their employees have a certain time limit to perform each task per day.

That would explain why, when some submit the same book again it's accepted. So, I guess it boils down to the time of day. Simplicity at its best.
Not quite.
The "editors" have a daily quota to meet for acceptances, and they're hard pressed to work quickly enough to get through the minimum number. Five minutes are allowed, ten minutes maximum to review each submission. There is no cut-off point where the "editor" would stop taking submissions. If s/he can log in more than the minimum number, all the better. But it's very difficult to meet the minimum quota. There is no maximum. Time of day has nothing to do with it.

All submissions are entered into a spreadsheet. If an author resubmits a manuscript using the same title, it will show up in the database search as having been submitted and rejected. However, if the author submits the same manuscript with a different title, it might fly.

JimmyD1318

07-28-2007, 03:14 AM

Better make extra for Jimmy.
You know how much he LOVES popcorn!

Who? Me? You betcha'! POPCORN! MUNCH! MUNCH! MUNCH! :popcorn: Ahhh...!

JimmyD1318

07-28-2007, 03:22 AM

Not quite.
The "editors" have a daily quota to meet for acceptances, and they're hard pressed to work quickly enough to get through the minimum number. Five minutes are allowed, ten minutes maximum to review each submission. There is no cut-off point where the "editor" would stop taking submissions. If s/he can log in more than the minimum number, all the better. But it's very difficult to meet the minimum quota. There is no maximum. Time of day has nothing to do with it.

All submissions are entered into a spreadsheet. If an author resubmits a manuscript using the same title, it will show up in the database search as having been submitted and rejected. However, if the author submits the same manuscript with a different title, it might fly.

When I was stupid, I resubmitted my book to PA after getting rejected by them. About a month later it was accepted. So to me, that just goes to show that they don't have a clue on what they are doing over there.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: MUNCH! MUNCH! MUNCH! MUNCH! :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

DaveKuzminski

07-28-2007, 04:41 AM

For all we know, your second book might have even been accepted on merit even though it's PA we're discussing. More likely, it was accepted either to make a quota or to get even with PA by someone who was leaving. It could have even been a mistaken acceptance. They might have even believed mistakenly that having the second published would put pressure on you to get that first book selling. At present, it's unlikely we'll ever know the real reason.

What I do know is that PA will accept even obvious stings so that tells me they're not very particular over there when it comes to making a quota. I also know that past experience has shown that PA uses plants among its authors to keep control. The best way to pay them is with extra copies of their books. If they can sell those, then they'll actually receive an indirect salary. If not, it's a fairly minor expense to PA and there's little chance of anyone implicating PA unless the "Shemp" confesses.

In the meantime, some folks have mentioned to me that they're concerned PA will try to call me as a witness for PA at the arbitration. Now this I've got to see. ;)

Afinerosesheis

07-28-2007, 04:54 AM

Marie said:"You can't lump PA authors together in one big group and say they should all see what is apparent to you, or even to me."

Well said and a point I have been trying to make from time to time without much success.

I don't always agree with Mr. Harpe. We have had words, but he is one of the very few who has enough ba**s to speak up at the PAMB. His support keeps him from getting banned, and in that case maybe allows him to say more than others??

When I spoke up I was shortly thereafter banned. He//! I have been banned three times.

James D. Macdonald

07-28-2007, 05:49 AM

"Fruited plain" and "from sea to shining sea" are lines from an American patriotic song.

The returnability letter letter has been seen before. See, for example, the discussion in the old NEPAT, on these pages (and some pages just before and just after them:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=670&pp=40
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=1065
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=1075

endless rewrite

07-28-2007, 12:56 PM

His support keeps him from getting banned, and in that case maybe allows him to say more than others??

This is my question also (I presume that's why it ends with a question mark) who exactly is his support? I have seen popular PA authors get banned before without a second thought. The only answer seems to be PA support, without that he would be thrown out. One of the reason I am suspicious about Mr Harpe is that he blatantly get treated differently by PA and doesn't get banned where others such as yourself have been banned 3 times. He is also very vocal in his support of PA whilst seeming to complain about them. It doesn't add up.

You can't lump PA authors together in one big group and say they should all see what is apparent to you, or even to me.

I know that every author has a different reason for wanting to see their story published and there are many different reasons for supporting PA and wanting to get the hell out of Dodge. Nobody here is anti PA authors only PA and their enablers, which is why people like Elders get flack. My opinion is that those writers who want to move on with their writing and craft cannot help but eventually see the problems PA causes in fulfilling that ambition and ultimately have no option but to tackle them and move on which so many do. I also believe that some cling to PA out of a lack of confidence or a desperate belief that this is the only chance they have at being published, some just thoroughly enjoy playing the author role playing game and making book marks etc, some are beyond thrilled to have a copy of their book in hand until of course they try and sell more than a few to family and friends. I also believe that the shrillest most angrily defensive PA authors, those who go on the attack on the PAMB and elsewhere to defend PA mistakenly believe that to say that PA was a bad choice or that it is flawed is the same as attacking/criticising their own writing. They see any attack on PA as an attack on their own ability as a writer which is why they come out fighting and why they are so keen to recruit others to the PA fold, it is a way of validating their own choice and their own worth as writers. There are always better options than PA whatever they seem to offer but I am not so concerned for these authors as the first group who are struggling, firstly to make sense of what they landed in and secondly to get out.

endless rewrite

07-28-2007, 01:05 PM

And thanks everyone for the replies on how many book sales guarantee a second book. Reading the PAMB it would seem that a number of sales were expected first but your responses shows that as with everything else PA, nothing is that straight forward.

Arkie

07-28-2007, 08:17 PM

One of the surest ways to get a second book with PA is to take advantage of their initial discount when the first book comes out. The initial offer used to apply to a minimum 50 copies (I think that has been increased to 60). Including shipping that is an outlay of approximately $600.00 to PA, whom has cut out the middleman (Lightning Source), by now printing their own books. Getting that tidy sum from an author will almost assuredly get your a second book regardless of writing quality.

It is sales to authors that most interest PA, not sales to bookbuyers.

CatSlave

07-28-2007, 09:31 PM

All second submissions by 'published' authors are routed through one 'editor' who checks the number of sales of the author's previous book. If the number of sales is not high enough, the second work is automatically rejected.

You may have noticed that the PA offer, two years ago, to make books returnable from Ingram's was based on books having already sold at least 40 copies. Once a book has sold 40 copies, it is most likely already sold out and chances of an additional sale and return are miniscule. PA has already bled whatever profit is available from that book. More weasel words from PA.

Clever little weasels, them.

James D. Macdonald

07-28-2007, 10:43 PM

I based my assumption of a daily quota on this:

First, there aren't enough hours in the day for PA to accept everything.

Second, books that were rejected have been subsequently accepted on resubmission.

Third, the question: When the PA editors go home at the end of the day, what happens to all the submissions that they hadn't yet gotten to? Tomorrow's email would bring as many again, and if they didn't get to tomorrow's until today's was finished, soon there'd be a backlog as great as a real publisher's.

Hence, I figured, they had to reject anything that was still in their inbox after a certain point, even if it was unread.

James D. Macdonald

07-28-2007, 10:43 PM

Lots of PA authors sell a second (or even third) book to PA before the first ever appears.

Queen of Swords

07-28-2007, 10:48 PM

Oh good grief. An author posted to say that she was planning to write to neurologists and neurosurgeons regarding her autobiography, which is about her struggle with epilepsy.

The latest in marketing tips. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22481)

The sad part was the second post, where she said,

God I hope this idea works. I so want to get OFF of Social Security.

CatSlave

07-28-2007, 11:31 PM

If a backlog of submissions should occur, Miranda just moves another person into the Acquisitions area to keep the flow going.

It takes just as much time to reject a submission as it does to accept one as far as handling the email and updating the spreadsheet. The printing and mailing of the contract is a separate step.

Everyone reports their numbers to Miranda every day: queries received, accepted and rejected; submissions received, accepted and rejected, and so on throughout each department. If a person cannot consistently meet the minimum requirement, s/he gets fired. If a person refuses to sign a confidentiality agreement, s/he gets fired.

Every submission is potential dollars in the bank for PA, regardless of how good or lousy it is. The guidelines for rejection are minimal, mostly manuscript length and format problems (too short, screenplay, too many graphics). Everything else has a chance of acceptance. PA *wants* to accept each and every manuscript if they possibly can. If the manuscript has a problem that can be fixed -for example, it's not long enough- the author is asked to make the fix and resubmit. Every acceptance is money in the bank for them.

When submissions slow down, Miranda will go back through the spreadsheet for rejected manuscripts, and send letters to the authors inviting them to resubmit their work for reconsideration. That's how desperate they are to keep the numbers up.

I can see why the assumption is made that there's a time deadline for submissions. But as I mentioned before, Miranda just moves people around within the organization to fill in any area that might be lagging. When you consider the lack of qualifications needed for an editorial position, just about anybody can be trained to go through the steps of reviewing submissions. If you can fill out a spreadsheet and have minimal computer experience, you're good to go.

Further explanation: In the morning, the editors report to the supervisor how many emails are in their inboxes. The supervisor then doles out additional emails to each editor, so that each one has perhaps 75-80 incoming at any time. At 4 PM work stops, and the daily numbers are reported to Miranda and the master spreadsheet is updated. Whatever mail is still in the inbox at the end of the day stays there to be worked on the following day. The next day that number is again reported to the supervisor, who doles out more emails to keep the inbox full. And so on, every day. Every submission gets reviewed. Perhaps the practice of stopping work at 4 PM to do numbers and spreadsheet updates is where the idea came that the time of the submission was a factor in whether or not it would be accepted.

Of course, PA does not offer combat pay for having to read the majority of the stuff that gets submitted.

Queen of Swords

07-28-2007, 11:34 PM

All praise be to PA. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22485)

I was looking through my files the other day of literary agents and publishers. In the past I have literally submitted my inquiry to over a thousand of them. Each one rejected me because I was an unknown author.

Chances are they rejected your submission because whatever you were offering didn't meet their requirements. If submissions are rejected solely because the authors are unknown, then few if any books would be published.

They didn't even bother to look at what I wrote.

Presumably they read your query letter. It takes time and practice to write a good query letter.

Out of over a thousand only one agent read my first 3 chapters and then told me he would work with me if only I would make some drastic changes. It's a long story, but he eventually never accepted me and my work. He turned out to be the same as the rest of them. He didn't want to gamble with a new author. According to him, that would be too much work. I was almost ready to give up on my dream.

What else were you doing to further your dream besides sending out inquiries? Were you writing other novels?

After over a year of trying I accidentally discovered Publish America.

"After over a year of trying I still hadn't gotten my PhD in medicine. But then I accidentally discovered a place which would give me a beautiful certificate saying I was a doctor."

I submitted my inquiry and then they responded right away. For the first time I felt like a human being in the world of publishers.

You may well be a human being, but you're not in the world of publishers. And another thing I noticed is that this story is all about I, I, I, not about the book - and that's the primary concern of real publishers. A scamster of any kind will try to stroke your ego and make you feel as though they're the only people who care about your feelings. Looks as though that worked in this case.

They were interested in my art. I was excited when I signed my contract and recieved my $1.00.

They were so interested they paid all of $1 for it.

The Publish America staff were great, each one of them, and they really work with you and not against you like that agent I mentioned above. I really am happy that I discovered Publish America.
With my book now publish, I've come to realize that my American Dream has come true and it's all thanks to Publish America.

If the dream was to have a book printed up and sold at an inflated price to a few family members and friends who don't mind editing errors, I have no doubt that PA can fulfil it. I don't think that's a difficult dream to realize. The tough part is when the dream is a little more ambitious - having the book stocked in stores, getting reviews from people who aren't fellow PA authors, making more money than $1, etc.

Anyway, the "Thank God for Publish America" author joined the outpouring of love and gratitude.

Thank you for the reminder. Too many folks get too big for their britches and forget that they should be grateful and not complain.

"You kids ought to be grateful for what you got. Why, in my day we had to walk uphill for six miles to get published - and it was snowing all the way!"

We are published because PA took a chance on us.

Don't any of them say, "I took a chance on PA"?

PA has opened some doors for me. I have now have an article accepted into the Amazon Shorts program.

Do they have a requirement that you need to be published before you submit anything to them? Really, the only door PA is going to open is the one to the bookstore when the manager shows you out after explaining that they can't stock your books.

ResearchGuy

07-28-2007, 11:38 PM

. . .
Hence, I figured, they had to reject anything that was still in their inbox after a certain point, even if it was unread.
Perhaps roughly analogous to the baker tossing out the pastries left in the case at closing time. They are not going to improve overnight, and he'll be baking up a fresh batch by opening time tomorrow anyway. The difference is, not many customers are lining up to eat the PA pastries, and they are baked one-at-a-time anyway (the pastries, not the customers).

But then, maybe they could send the rejects to the Day-Old-Manuscript-Store, which is to PA as PA is to real publishing.

--Ken

CatSlave

07-29-2007, 01:04 AM

Lifted from another thread. Read the whole post here:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71945

"Vanity Publisher" means any publisher whose authors exclusively promote and/or sell their own books and publishers whose business model and methods of publishing and distribution are primarily directed toward sales to the author, his/her relatives and/or associates.
~ ~ ~ ~
Though we know some RWA members disagree, when determining whether a publisher is a Vanity Publisher, RWA believes it is important to look at distribution of books. When a publisher does not pay an advance and does not become involved with marketing and distribution, it is, in reality, acting as nothing more than a consignment dealer for the book. Providing this kind of service requires little or nothing of the publisher, and the responsibility to market the product and drive traffic to single distribution point falls upon the author. There is nothing two-sided about this kind of arrangement, no give and take where both sides involved incur risk and both stand to gain. In this situation the author incurs all of the financial risk in attempting to market a product.
~ ~ ~ ~
The hard truth is that a Vanity Publisher or Subsidy Publisher is not, in general, as favorable to the writer as an advance-paying non-Vanity Publisher or non-Subsidy Publisher.

Jersey Chick

07-29-2007, 01:10 AM

Thank you for the reminder. Too many folks get too big for their britches and forget that they should be grateful and not complain.

This kills me! I don't know if anyone remembers the whole flap concerning Anne Stuart and Miss Snark - where Anne Stuart publicly blasted her publisher over what she felt was not being given certain things that she felt she earned. How's that for not being grateful? I don't get that mentality that you should never speak a negative word about your publisher (or printer, as the case may be.) They aren't doing you any favors. It's a business venture - you provide a saleable product and the publisher does what it can to sell it.

**shakes head** It would be funny if it weren't so sad and infuriating at the same time.

Christine N.

07-29-2007, 02:52 AM

That turns my stomach.

Too big for their britches??? Whatever.

e.dashwood

07-29-2007, 03:08 AM

Hence, I figured, they had to reject anything that was still in their inbox after a certain point, even if it was unread.

They read them?

DaveKuzminski

07-29-2007, 03:27 AM

They read them?

Well, at least to the byline. ;)

Mel

07-29-2007, 04:33 AM

Okay, I need to get this straight. For the PA authors who are still cheering their publisher as if it was the best thing since sliced bread. Figure how many hours you put into your book. You get paid $1 for it. So, if you went to work in a factory or office you can put in that same amount of time and receive the same payment and you should be grateful and not complain. Right?

JCT

07-29-2007, 04:57 AM

Komnena

07-29-2007, 06:15 AM

What about if you had to spend your own money promoting the product you make in the factory and sell said product on your own time?

Jersey Chick

07-29-2007, 08:18 AM

Ah, but they didn't have to pay to walk into that factory and, apparently, that makes all the difference in the world! ;)

Komnena

07-29-2007, 08:49 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22498

Does anybody know why there would be a limit of copies a bookstore can order for booksignings?

JCT

07-29-2007, 09:30 PM

I like how they all Ingram for their book issues. Ingram is just the wholesaler, people. It's like blaming the paper guy if you disagree with the editorial.

I imagine the limit is likely due to the "returnable" policy through Ingram. The wholesaler doesn't want to have a bunch of books returned if they don't sell, so they may have set a limit on the number of copies sold to each individual outlet.

They certainly don't but then again with PA's returns policy, this makes sense.

CatSlave

07-29-2007, 09:50 PM

They read them?
First five pages, middle five pages and last five pages at the most.

ResearchGuy

07-29-2007, 10:36 PM

What about if you had to spend your own money promoting the product you make in the factory and sell said product on your own time?
It is called "being in business for yourself." Millions of people do that every day. Some sell services, some sell widgets, some sell hamburgers, some sell books. The lucky (or more skillful) ones do not face the handicaps imposed by PA.

--Ken

ResearchGuy

07-29-2007, 10:41 PM

. (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=22498) . .Does anybody know why there would be a limit of copies a bookstore can order for booksignings?
In a word: prudence.

Except for well-known, popular authors, booksignings draw few purchasers. Even when the books are returnable prudence dicates not going overboard when a reasonable expectation might be to sell a half-dozen copies at most. If the store only has a couple of leftover copies, it can afford to let them wait a while for buyers. Not so for a large quantity of unsold copies.

--Ken

JCT

07-30-2007, 09:39 PM

A new author, worried about being lost in the big bad world of publishing.

Hello Everybody! Can't say I am new at writing but it is the first time I am getting published in English and i was kind of happy about it until I saw how many people have been published here.Hey it's great and I know that if you are good, there are about a million other people who can do it and even better in some cases but was just wondering if any of you out there felt the same way at first, you know first you think you are the few, the proud and the only then to after see that you are just a drip of water in some smaller pond.Also was curious to know too how many books the worst writer publised by PA has ever sold(if anyone knows that) Whatever may be, just want to say that I am happy in a way to be here in this place because I know now we are all writers so that is one more exclusive club to come from time to time.Cheers to all.

And a response:

You are a small fish in a big pond, that is true---but the pond in much larger than just this forum. In fact, I will be willing to say that PA has fewer authors than other publishers. PA itself is a small fish, if you will,

Fewer authors than other publishers? Which ones? Are we counting all publishers or just vanity presses?

PVish

07-30-2007, 10:00 PM

First five pages, middle five pages and last five pages at the most.

Nope, they don't even read that much. When my dog, uh, submitted his sting manuscript, his bio on the first page mentioned he didn't have a phone and depended upon Internet service from a friend.

However, he received several emails asking him for his phone number so he could be given some "good news." I figure "Tim" in PA acquistions didn't even read the first paragraph! (Finally, the dog received his acceptance via email.)

I'm guess "Tim" just scrolled through, figured it looked like poetry, and automatically accepted it.

I wonder if PA likes to phone people with the good news (I'm using the term loosely here) to make them feel special.

JCT

07-30-2007, 10:17 PM

Nope, they don't even read that much. When my dog, uh, submitted his sting manuscript, his bio on the first page mentioned he didn't have a phone and depended upon Internet service from a friend.

However, he received several emails asking him for his phone number so he could be given some "good news." I figure "Tim" in PA acquistions didn't even read the first paragraph! (Finally, the dog received his acceptance via email.)

I'm guess "Tim" just scrolled through, figured it looked like poetry, and automatically accepted it.

I wonder if PA likes to phone people with the good news (I'm using the term loosely here) to make them feel special.

Is that new? I never heard of them phoning people before with their acceptance,

James D. Macdonald

07-31-2007, 06:24 AM

I find it difficult to believe that they phone anyone. Phone calls cost money, and that puts people in direct contact where -- unless it's Larry or Minada themselves -- any unscripted thing could happen.

CatSlave

07-31-2007, 07:00 AM

If PA has offered you a contract, but you have not signed and returned it within a week or two, they will call to put pressure on you. PA may have you on the hook, but it doesn't count unless they can reel you in. They don't want to lose you, after all their careful angling to get you to take the bait. They can't get to your money without the contract. They want that signed contract in fist, even if it means a phone call to hurry things along.

After they have your contract in hand, you will not be able to reach anyone there by phone. Unless, of course, you are placing an order for books. It's the only other time someone will talk to you.

PVish

07-31-2007, 08:19 PM

It could be that PA wants a phone number for verification purposes. They Google the phone number and up pops the street address, the owner of the phone number, and other info.

I do think it odd that PA NEVER emailed back to ask why my dog didn't return his contracts which PA had to spend $1.11 to mail. After I outed the sting here on AW, we never heard from PA again. (I was kinda expecting a dogcatcher to appear late one night. . . .)

brianm

07-31-2007, 08:41 PM

Are you getting the impression that PAMB members are just making up silly threads to pass the time until royalty checks start to arrive? It feels like the quiet before a storm when you read the PAMB lately. Lots of happy little threads slapping each other on the back.

Update on porn guy…

According to Ingram (615-213-6803), it has:

Total on hand: 0
Total on order: 0
Total on backorder: 0
This week's unadjusted demand: 0
Last week's adjusted demand: 0
Total sales this year: 3
Total sales last year: 0

Just thought you’d all like to be kept informed on his progress towards reaching his goal of selling 50,000 books in the first three months after release.:D

CatSlave

07-31-2007, 11:31 PM

He's holding himself back for the big climax. :D

Sheryl Nantus

07-31-2007, 11:40 PM