Structure

I just love story structure. Love it, love it, love it. As much as I love what can be done with POV.

I'm not sure what information you want though. Or what problems you're having. If you could be more specific, I'd try to offer some suggestions.

In terms of a book that talks about structure a lot, check out Jack Bickham's Scene & Structure. Some people like The Hero's Journey, which is a sort of metaphorical structure, and others like Syd Fields's screenwriting book, which is applicable in many ways to novel writing. I believe there are some books out there on three-act (or four-act, if you break the middle act into two pieces) structure, although I can't think of the titles at the moment. I believe Deb Dixon's Goal, Motivation and Conflict talks about structure, at least indirectly.

Sometimes it takes reading about, and trying out, several different ways of viewing structure until you find the one that works for you. I can't use the metaphorical versions, personally, but I like really concrete versions that focus on acts and turning points. But it doesn't matter what works for me; you need to find that one that works for you.

JD

Funny thing is how many different structure schemes there are out there. I'm on half a dozen writing mailing lists, all of which have smart people talking about how the style XYZ is dead and now style ABC seems to be taking over.

It vaguely reminds me of Eddie Izzard's experience with the Career Advisor, who said: "Well, I advise you to get a career." You'll have a dozen advocates of a dozen solid structures (and by the end of their spiel, half of them will just throw up their arms and say "It's all crap anyway, learn the rules then forget about them. Just ask yourself if 'it works'.")

Small Disclaimer: poster is not all that experienced and definitely not a genius.

Right on Ordinary Guy !!!!!!!! I couldnt have said it better myself.

The novel opens with a problem that needs solved and/or a question that needs answered. The novel comes full circle so if you read chapter one, you'll know the problem and/or the question, and if you read chapter last, you'll find the solution to the problem and/or the answer to the question.

Between chapter one and chapter last you have obstacles that create tension and conflict. The story arc is one that begins strong, drops slightly, then rises steadily toward climax, with the occasional valley that allows a reader to breathe. It's like a roller coaster where each hill is higher than the one before. The climax is that final hill that's so high and so steep you want to get out and walk because you're sure that drop will kill you.

I believe everyone knows when they have a winner. Asking for advice is a sure sign you sense the writing is wrong.

What I do is find passages of excellent writing and copy them until their words drip from my fingers. This is what composers do. Practice the Masters until you can do what they do. Then release your Genii. Unless I'm mistaken Pink Floyd were classical music students before they formed up the band. I went to high school with one famous rocker; we took music theory class together. Excellent student. Wanted to absord all he could of the Old Masters.

Mayor of Moronia said:

I believe everyone knows when they have a winner. Asking for advice is a sure sign you sense the writing is wrong.

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I know a lot of successful authors. Very few of them are so sure of themselves that they never ask for advice. Conversely, some of the worst writers I've ever met were averse to asking for advice, and didn't listen when they got it.

What I do is find passages of excellent writing and copy them until their words drip from my fingers. This is what composers do. Practice the Masters until you can do what they do. Then release your Genii. Unless I'm mistaken Pink Floyd were classical music students before they formed up the band. I went to high school with one famous rocker; we took music theory class together. Excellent student. Wanted to absord all he could of the Old Masters.

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Reading and studying great writers never goes amiss. On the other hand, it's not enough by itself to make you a successful writer.

Speed

Uh...I agree. I believe writers know when they have a winner and when they have a piece-o-crap....and ask for advice for correcting it or getting a new direction.

I also know people who are slaves to their polarity responses when they post.

I double what speed said.

Nashelle said:

Is there a very experienced writer or a genius out there who can advise me on structuring a novel?

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I am a genius, so allow me.

Nashelle said:

Most books and the internet talk about writing techniques but no one actually says anything about how to put the pages together for the best effect.

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Glue.
Cardboard (thin) for the outside bit and then some paper with writey-words on them. Stick 'em with glue, that way the buggers will stay stuck. To the cardboard. That's the outside bit. You can draw a picture on it if you like.

[From Markito, the helpful genius who feels a little weird this evening....]

Different structures create different effects on your audience, so do you know what you want to make your audience feel?

Mayor of Moronia said:

Speed.

I also know people who are slaves to their polarity responses when they post.

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What??? What does that mean?

He means that he was self-contradicting in his post.

I took me two reads to understand too...
10000

I found Jack Bickham's Scene & Structure very helpful. Amongst other things, it explains why scenes work better if the dialogue and narrative follow a certain pattern as opposed to words and actions simply being thrown on paper.

Structure may come naturally to some folk, but better to check or learn it if there is any uncertainty at all.

Bufty said:

I found Jack Bickham's Scene & Structure very helpful. Amongst other things, it explains why scenes work better if the dialogue and narrative follow a certain pattern as opposed to words and actions simply being thrown on paper.

Structure may come naturally to some folk, but better to check or learn it if there is any uncertainty at all.

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I'm not sure structure ever comes naturally, but basic structure, at least, should come from reading enough published novels. Basic novel structure is really pretty simple, and by the time a writer has read a thousand or so novels, he probably knows a lot more about structure than he thinks he knows.

I suspect most new writers do know more than they believe they know, and it's insecurity, rather than lack of knowledge, that often gets in the way. They just don't trust themselves enough.

But I'd second Bickham's book. Anything he says is at least worth considering. He certainly changed my mind about a few things over the years.

smiley

Keep your day job.

Apart from finding out that she's adopted, what's the story?

Okay, I see what you're asking about now. It's not so much acts and beats and rising tension and such.

You're talking about something more like the difference between linear and experimental structure. I'd recommend going with linear, particularly for a first book (or even a second, third .... fifteenth book).

Start with the day that's different for the character. Something that happens that shakes up her routine and causes her to pursue some goal. She pursues her new goal, and has to struggle against an antagonist who's making it more difficult for her to achieve her new goal, until you reach the point where it looks like she's going to fail, and then she will surmount that black moment, succeed against the odds (or fail, if you're writing tragedy), and her original goal will have been achieved/failed.

Using your example, something happens that causes her to move to a town (inciting event), where she plans to ... what? What is she trying to accomplish? Let's say she's going to become an astronaut (I'm just picking something at random, something I'm fairly sure is not your story), and in the course of going through the testing required to qualify, she finds out her rare blood type matches the man who's not supposed to be her father. So, she starts digging through adoption records and can't find them, and so she contacts someone who was supposed to know about her early childhood, and he's evasive, so she .... And so on and so on and so on, until it gets so bad that she's going to flunk out of the astronaut program b/c she's so intent on unraveling her biology, and then she triumphs and gets answers. Or not.

Cause and effect. Linear. Chronological. No point in complicating your story unless you absolutely, positively have to.

Really, get Bickham's book, Scene & Structure. It's published by Writer's Digest, and you could probably find used copies pretty inexpensively.

JD

Structure's a mystery to me. I have a handful of models in my toolbox but I stole them all from other novels.

Here's my current favorite (and this has probably been said better already, but I'll say it anyway):

1. Figure out the novel's central conflict.
2. Introduce that conflict on page one, at the moment in which the conflict weighs most heavily on your character.
3. Spend a little time introducing subsidiary conflicts and the characters who own them.
4. Have a character decide a plan of action in regard to the central conflict, and put it into play.
5. Let all of the characters work-out the rest naturally.

This should work whether your narrative is sequential, or skips around a lot with flashbacks and such. I think.

I must also disclaim a lack of genius on my part.

Not sure what you mean by facets. If you have a central character, can't you start with that character at a particular point and go forward from there?

Nashelle said:

I can't sick to this structure because there are so many facets to this story. It's all I can do to keep track of everything.

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Okay, we're agreed that there are many structure types to choose from.

What you could do is make a list of each then get off this forum for a few days and figure out which one is best for telling your story. Perhaps if you begin with the simplest and do an outline using what you've already written it could give you a start.

Another option--like you need more--is pick a movie you know very well and deconstruct it. THIS will teach you, via "reverse engineering," more about structure than all the fiddling and suggestions we can offer.

Scripts tend to be very tight since they have to tell a big story in only 120-double spaced pages.

Die Hard is a fun one to deconstruct. It's a good action movie, but has secondary plots and supporting characters who step up the action and suspense bit by bit until it comes to the final confrontation between the hero and baddie. Everything in the film leads up to that point. Watch and take notes.

Then look at your own story.

How do you intro the characters, their internal/external conflicts, interaction, and how they move toward a solution to their problem?

If they're getting away from you, then maybe you need to read more novels and analyze what you've read. While it's great for a character to break out and demand to tell his story, it's not so good for the inmates to be running the asylum! You have to blow your whistle and get them organized.

Good luck!

facets

Nashelle said:

I can't sick to this structure because there are so many facets to this story. It's all I can do to keep track of everything.

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If this is the case, it may be a sign you need to remove some facets and simplify the story.