HOLY COW, critics who are not published can be harsh.

Jon McDonald · Aug 15, 2006

I recently joined youwriteon.com it's kind of a review forum in england, I first heard about it in these forums. I'll admit I didn't expect a miracle by being critiqued by non-published :e2writer:

but HOLY COW.....Some writers who are not published will hash your work, and just about trash talk your work if it doesn't compare to theirs...True my work needs professional editing, I didn't just jump into this industry knowing everything, if I did then I'd be published already. I mean WOW , I was beaten up like a red headed step child. :e2beat:

BEWARE: If your not prepared to have your heart ripped out of your chest and have it shown to you then you might not want to join this group. :Headbang:

Again I'm not a perfect person and I know my skills are not that of a seasoned writer but you just don't crush someones work if it doesn't match up to your own, especially if they them self are not a published writer :Soapbox:

That is unless this critic was threatened by my work? :idea:

At any rate I've vented for today, cheers to all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dclary · Aug 15, 2006

Jon, a lot of times these folks are engaging in what they think is constructive criticism. Especially if a work is raw, or clearly unedited, or full of errors.

Pconsidine here at AW has the nickname "Redpen" for the number of marks he makes on folks' papers.

Obviously we haven't seen the critiques you've gotten, but if it were me (and it's been me in the past) I'd want the sharpest, harshest, hardest critiques I could find, because nothing got stronger or better from praise and back-patting.

J. Weiland · Aug 15, 2006

I'm sure if you post your work here, Jon, people will be better behaved when they post comments.

It will be :Hug2:

instead of :poke:

. I'm sure of it. Right, people?

Toothpaste · Aug 15, 2006

Totally right.

Sometimes people are mean just for being mean. If someone says something is bad without adding why, or offering suggestions, that's just wrong. Now I don't know if that is the case with you Jon, but if so, just take it with a grain of salt. The other comments, wait a few days and revisit them with a more objective view (often the excitement of the prospect of comments can make the dissapointment greater). And remember you can accept or reject any them as you see fit.

Meanwhile vent away!

Jon McDonald · Aug 15, 2006

Thanks for the input.

Thanks very much for the input, I was kind of expecting what I got but not the first one and not being that harsh. Thanks again for the input and letting me vent. :snoopy:

Sassenach · Aug 15, 2006

That is unless this critic was threatened by my work?

Maybe you ran into a couple of ***holes.
Maybe your submission wasn't as good as you think.
Maybe both or neither.
But my advice is not to make comments like that--it's something that sour grapes newbies frequently say.

I recommend you post some work on the Share Your Work thread. There are some excellent critiquers here.

J. Weiland · Aug 15, 2006

You just handle your writing, Jon, the way you've handled your injuries; If you don't quit and don't back down from a challenge, then the writing will turn out better also.

Jon McDonald · Aug 15, 2006

Sassenach said:
That is unless this critic was threatened by my work?

But my advice is not to make comments like that--it's something that sour grapes newbies frequently say.

EASY there, it was a JOKE :flag:

my apology if you were offended. And if you read my comments I never said it was polished work.

Tish Davidson · Aug 15, 2006

Here are some guidelines from in-person writing groups that I have belonged to or facilitated. Basically, specific criticisms are appropriate, general trashing is not, and comparing one person's work to another is not useful and should not be permitted. If the comments fell withing the guidelines below, then the group will probably be helpful to you. If not, then look for another group.

Keep in mind the author's goals. Is it publication, emotional exploration, a story for family and friends. Try to critique at a level appropriate for the goal of the author.

Be specific in criticisms. Mark passages you like and passages that you don't like. Indicate errors in mechanics (grammar, punctuation). Comment on transitions, tone, dialogue in specific ways (e.g. When you started this paragraph, you lost me. The transition from the scene before was too abrupt).
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If you think you know how the author can fix something, make a suggestion, but remember, it is the author's story. Respect the story he/she wants to tell and don't try to change it into the one you would write in terms of content[/FONT]

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Sassenach · Aug 15, 2006

Jon McDonald said:
EASY there, it was a JOKE my apology if you were offended. And if you read my comments I never said it was polished work.

Thanks for the clarification. However, you've brought up another of my hobby horses: submission of [very] unpolished work. While I understand that one submits a WIP, IMO, one should submit something that's been at least partially polished.

First drafts are the purview of crit partners, etc.

Jon McDonald · Aug 15, 2006

Tish Davidson said:
Here are some guidelines from in-person writing groups that I have belonged to or facilitated. Basically, specific criticisms are appropriate, general trashing is not, and comparing one person's work to another is not useful and should not be permitted. If the comments fell withing the guidelines below, then the group will probably be helpful to you. If not, then look for another group.

Keep in mind the author's goals. Is it publication, emotional exploration, a story for family and friends. Try to critique at a level appropriate for the goal of the author.

Be specific in criticisms. Mark passages you like and passages that you don't like. Indicate errors in mechanics (grammar, punctuation). Comment on transitions, tone, dialogue in specific ways (e.g. When you started this paragraph, you lost me. The transition from the scene before was too abrupt).
[FONT=&quot]
If you think you know how the author can fix something, make a suggestion, but remember, it is the author's story. Respect the story he/she wants to tell and don't try to change it into the one you would write in terms of content[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

I agree with you but unfortunately that did happen in this case, that's why I wanted to give you all a heads up about this site to prepare anyone who joins it. I feel like I'm welcome and fit in to the group here, that's why I gave the head up as well as vent :rant:

a little. Trust me by no means will I allow this critic to sway me away from my goals, if I can over come my injury then I can make this work. Thanks for the kind words. :Thumbs:

Jon McDonald · Aug 15, 2006

Sassenach said:
Thanks for the clarification. However, you've brought up another of my hobby horses: submission of [very] unpolished work. While I understand that one submits a WIP, IMO, one should submit something that's been at least partially polished.

First drafts are the purview of crit partners, etc.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll have to remember that for future events. Again I didn't mean to offend ANYONE. If I did please except my apology in advance, sometimes my joking might come across the wrong way, it's not done on purpose. Thanks again.. :Thumbs:

Bufty · Aug 15, 2006

Welcome, Jon. :hi:

I only know two other Vets - both through crit boards - and they're great guys. One is in AW, and I'm proud to know both of them.

Sorry you got a mangling on your submission. I'm not published and I do the odd crit. Maybe the critters you refer to claimed they were being 'brutally honest'. That's a phrase I don't agree with - 'brutal' has nothing to do with an honest critique.

Welcome, again.

Jon McDonald · Aug 15, 2006

Bufty said:
Welcome, Jon.

I only know two other Vets - both through crit boards - and they're great guys. One is in AW, and I'm proud to know both of them.

Sorry you got a mangling on your submission. I'm not published and I do the odd crit. Maybe the critters you refer to claimed they were being 'brutally honest'. That's a phrase I don't agree with - 'brutal' has nothing to do with an honest critique.

Welcome, again.

Thanks again for the nice words, maybe one day I'll get to visit the homeland.

Ghost RYter · Aug 15, 2006

Dont let it get you down .... Writers (both published and non) are a fickle bunch , usually a bit Bi polar , and almost always a bit "know it all"
The reason for this of coarse is that it takes an interesting (sometimes a bit off) person to have the imagination and creativity to craft worlds and characters .... Its all part of trade .
Also , you cannot rule out jealosy as many are so protective of their own work they often see it through rose colored glasses (and view yours with synicism )
This is not always the case but a valid point none the less.

Mayor of Moronia · Aug 15, 2006

My personal opinion: No one out there is competent to offer definitive literary criticism. Everyone knows what they like and sometimes they learn to like new things. Best-sellers are successful because enough people have the same taste. Every editor has a horror story of how they rejected a Stephen King.

Bufty · Aug 15, 2006

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

However, as a critter, I don't claim to offer definitive literary criticism. I offer my reaction to what I read based upon my own experience of writing. If it's helpful to the recipient, fair enough. If not, they can ignore it.

I also learn myself by critting other folks' work, and in many instances submitting something for critique on a Board like this is the only source of feedback both for me and many other folk - beyond that obtainable from family and friends, which is usually useless.

Mayor of Moronia said:
My personal opinion: No one out there is competent to offer definitive literary criticism. Everyone knows what they like and sometimes they learn to like new things. Best-sellers are successful because enough people have the same taste. Every editor has a horror story of how they rejected a Stephen King.

Ghost RYter · Aug 15, 2006

I find that my family is way too BRUTAL !!!!!!!!!! Rather read my work to hungry wolves , LOL

Jon McDonald · Aug 15, 2006

WOW

I thank you all for your kind words of advise, being able to express your opinion here is really cool and it helps people like me who are starting out learn what and what not to do. Thanks again for all of your input.

Jamesaritchie · Aug 22, 2006

critique

I've never found any logical reason to join any critique group, or to show my writing to anyone except agents and editor. The blind leading the ignorant is something I can do without, and this is all 99% of critique groups out there are.

TwentyFour · Aug 22, 2006

I joined a critique group and boy did they tear me a new one! Jon, I know what you are going through and then they followed one here and harassed him for posting about how they attacked him. I deleted the account and left them...they were a little bit too much for me to handle. Queries that unpublished writers wanted critiqued -- they called them garbage and said it was not meant to wipe their butt on. I'm not going to mention the group here either, but it was ages ago! I then joined a few other boards, etc. AW, Mels forum, Christian Writers, and so on. I got critiques that made me say, "You're right, that needs changed" Not "OH MY GOD, what am I thinking???? I can't write! You're so right, I suck!"

Well, I know AW is not like that and I found I don't show my work either, till I need help in rewrites and other things.

The Lady · Aug 22, 2006

Hi Jon, I checked out the site and I think I may have a little feeling for why you got savaged.
Stakes are very high over there. The top five rated stories of the month get reviewed by some SERIOUS names in the business. One I regonised was JK Rowlings' agent. This site has some very decent contacts.
Now, imagine if you will, a writer who has a very nice chapter, (They seem to review chapters over there), how nice would it be to get it straight to an agent. (Agents are business people, you know if they think they can sell it, they'll take it on)
You see another very well written chapter land before you for you to review, it's good, damn, it's very good, curse it, you refuse to consider the prospect but some people might even consider it better than yours. It going to take a very generous writer, to give someone who is effectively in competition with them, a great review.
Here, it's different, you has nothing to loose by saying, frankly I'm awed by your masterwork and here's a few points to make it even better, there, it's different. I'm thinking of joining the site. I'm sure I'd get the harshest reviews of my life.
The other point though, is are the reviews you get there honest or just people savaging the competition.
BTW, they post the professional crits. They are very, very, I'll say it again, very thorough and a lot can be learned by reading them.
That's all Jon. Hope that helps.

Jon McDonald · Aug 22, 2006

THANKS FROM MY HEART!!!

Thanks to all of those who have allowed a newbie like me to :rant:

and rave. All of you have very interesting points, I'll take them all into considerations. Thanks again to all, I truly feel :welcome:

among very helpful kind people. :hooray:

Dollywagon · Aug 22, 2006

I had a peek at the site when Jon first posted, and have to say that I should have mentioned what, The Lady, has said, only much sooner.

I didn't register with them, but it does seem that the writing that gets the best poster critiques goes on to win a professional critique.

It may be worth you lot having a looksy just to get your opinions.

Angelinity · Aug 22, 2006

thanks for the tip, jon - i looove it when my stuff is hacked to pieces by people who know more than i do. gonna give it a go

HOLY COW, critics who are not published can be harsh.

Jon McDonald

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

J. Weiland

Lurker

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

Jon McDonald

Sassenach

5 W's & an H

J. Weiland

Lurker

Jon McDonald

Tish Davidson

Sassenach

5 W's & an H

Jon McDonald

Jon McDonald

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Jon McDonald

Ghost RYter

Mayor of Moronia

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Ghost RYter

Jon McDonald

Jamesaritchie

TwentyFour

practical experience, FTW

The Lady

Critical Member

Jon McDonald

Dollywagon

Angelinity

absent