Using song lyrics...

Unfortunately, song lyrics are copyright and if you do sell your manuscript it is not guaranteed that the lyrics will be in the final. You can try to get permission, but not everybody allows it.

Beginning in a dream? Sure. Why not. Just make it make sense...that's all I ask for as a reader.

KTC said:

Unfortunately, song lyrics are copyright

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A little misleading. Modern song lyrics, post-1922, are most likely protected by copyright. You could freely quote Stephen Foster, for example, but not Bob Dylan.

caw.

I had to take out all my song lyrics, but not paraphrases of those lyrics.

Great question! It comes up a lot around here. here are some threads. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31823&highlight=lyric

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29041&highlight=lyric

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8231&highlight=lyric

You might also consider that a song has 5 different meanings to 5 different people. If you allude the idea of the song, or write your own you might actually get your point across better. Just my 2cents. (I know cause I asked 'bout it here too...) Let me see if I can find that thread, I don't think it was in a thread specifically about lyrics...be back, maybe tomorrow.

blacbird said:

A little misleading. Modern song lyrics, post-1922, are most likely protected by copyright. You could freely quote Stephen Foster, for example, but not Bob Dylan.

caw.

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Yes, Smarty McFarty. I was not attempting to purposefully mislead. I was thinking that IThinkICan was referring to modern lyrics. Also, a lot of the music prior to the above date is still held in copyright by somebody...if not the artist themself. It is something you would have to investigate on a song by song basis. I was assuming, though. Should have clarified. Thanks blac!

KTC said:

Yes, Smarty McFarty. I was not attempting to purposefully mislead. I was thinking that IThinkICan was referring to modern lyrics. Also, a lot of the music prior to the above date is still held in copyright by somebody...if not the artist themself. It is something you would have to investigate on a song by song basis. I was assuming, though. Should have clarified. Thanks blac!

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Actually, it gets even more complicated than that, to the point where it becomes really fuzzy at times. Lyrics may be protected by one copyright, music by another, and specific expressions or recordings obviously by yet others.

caw.

A friend of mine with over 40 novels sold decided some years back that she needed a certain poem (close enough to lyrics) in one of her books.

The poet charged her a chunk of change for the use of his words. She paid, thinking it would add just the right tone to her story.

Turned out most of her readers were unaware a poem was even quoted. They skipped it entirely, opening to the first chapter and never looking back. Now she wishes she'd saved her money.

Song lyrics are fine for fanfic writing (that's where I see it the most) so long as no one pokes an eye out (a.k.a. you don't get caught!), but in pro publishing you might want to shed the device until you're established.

Editor's hat on now: Every time a story comes across my desk with song lyrics in it I just groan. Most of the time I've never heard of the song, so its impact is lost on me. (I listen to classical and instrumental jazz. )

I also wonder if the writer has permission to use the lyrics, expects me to take care of that detail (not my job, the writer does that) or is just clueless about copyright.

Gillhoughly said:

I also wonder if the writer has permission to use the lyrics, expects me to take care of that detail (not my job, the writer does that) or is just clueless about copyright.

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I'd be my firstborn son on the latter.

But then, right now, I'm PO'd at him.

caw.

Well PHOOEY! Katiemac really helped me out on a thread about inserting pop culture into a novel and I am 99.9999% sure it had to do with song lyrics as well as culture in general, and i can't find it! UGH. But I found some other song lyric threads.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18054

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18002

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15505 post #14 is where song lyrics come in.

It's all Stephen King's fault. He quotes from songs constantly in his novels, which I thought was cool as a teenager, and started doing as a writer. I've since broken myself of the habit, deciding instead to quote from long dead poets like William Blake, Edgar A. Poe, Coleridge and the like. I'm pretty sure all of that stuff is in the public domain.

Manxom Vroom said:

II've since broken myself of the habit, deciding instead to quote from long dead poets like William Blake, Edgar A. Poe, Coleridge and the like. I'm pretty sure all of that stuff is in the public domain.

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It is, for the guys you mention. In the U.S., anything published prior to 1923 is in public domain. In Canada, Europe and Australia, copyright protection is based on the death of the author plus so many years (varies a bit in those places, so you'd need to check specifically). Also, be aware that copyright covers specific expression published at a specific time, so you have to be careful about later versions and translations. The original words of, say, Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment, and any pre-1923 English translations would be in public domain, but post-1923 (in the U.S.) translations would not be, as the copyright covers the translation itself.

caw

As an FYI, my agent submitted my MS, even with the one-line lyrics as epigraphs (er, is that right?) kicking off each chapter, sort of like a chapter title. The lawyers at my publisher did some research, came back and said I had to pony up a permission or we'd have to cut the lyrics. I decided not to play the permissions game, and so we cut the lyrics.

I still mention songs galore throughout the novel, including paraphrasing some lyrics.

You know what? The writing is stronger without the song lyrics. I made sure to avoid it completely with the second book.