Science question help.

[triceretops]

In my story I have giant alien rhino beetles drop-shipped into mass (earth) populations. These creatures are able to burrow and hide, then pounce like trapdoor spiders, only they are aggressive and seek out victims. Inside these giant beetles reside smaller mantid aliens, who are the smart masters, and they drive these beetles as though they were vehicles, through a symbiotic relationship. The beetles can go cammy with their environment and are extremely difficult to see, aside from disturbing the environment ie., kicking up dirt and leaves when they run to attack. They are quite heavy, so they do produce sound waves when traveling fast across the dirt.

Photon, lasers, or light weapons do no good against them, since their exoskelton (chitan) can transform into a mirror-like reflective film, hense their immunity to such weapons. (Similar to the way a cuttle fish can instantly change its exterior--laser weapons bounce off them).

The beetles give off no heat sig, so they cannot be detected with infrared. Nor do they give off any pheremone (sp?) sig to be picked up.

My military is working hard on trying to find a way of detecting these animals so they can be targeted with "old" conventional projectile weapons. (The military has a tech base that's 75 years into our future)

Question: Is it possible that my military scientists could invent any type of device that would pick these creatures up in any known spectrum of light? Could they invent some type of X-ray gimmick to see them comming?

The only thing I can think of would be a sonar mounted device on their battle helmets that would ping the target and transform some type of image into their face plate, to allow them to see these things so they could shoot them.

What am I missing here?

Tri

[dclary]

A couple of things I'd try, if I were on the military R&D team.

A) Motion Detecting sensors?

B) If we're talking about defending a position, then laser-beam tripwire-style defenses.. Set up a perimeter of laser beams that get broken as the animals come in. Cameras interpreting the breaking of the beams can project the location of targets through computer interpretation.

c) Laser-tagging via harpoon.... An advanced recon guy spearguns a tracking beacon into an incoming heavy, and all weapons target the beacon.

[triceretops]

Aaaa...that's very good. My soldiers have to actively seek them out.

And I just had a Doh! moment, since you reminded about something. If these creatures turn a brilliant chrome silver while deflecting a laser shot, it would mean that they ARE visible momentarily! So if you have one grunt attempting to shoot this creature with a laser round, while another grunt is standing by with a mini-gun, it would certainly become visible for an instant (or longer depending upon the rate of laser fire) to take a direct bullet hit. the laser wielders could be called "spotters" or something.

OMG, I never thought of that during the past 200 pages of fighting. Now I have to think up a theory of why that wouldn't work, or go back in there and incoporate that idea.

Any other suggestions?

Tri

[TheIT]

Please clarify - how big are the beetles? Cat size, dog, or horse?

Could an area be defended by laying down glue, or something which might catch their legs? Chemical weapons?

Do they emit any smells or sounds which might be detected? Why no heat signature? Are they cold or do they have the same temperature as the environment?

[merper]

What's wrong with mines around the city? Use an agressive air defense to stop them from dropping beetles into the city and turn the perimeter into a no man's land of mines.

If it's 75 years in the future, barring any sort of industrial collpase, they can easily have robotic drones track the beetles by sound, spray them with a cloud of nano particles to light up the targets. And the grunts can have HUDs built into their helmets that can light up the nanodots for them. Hell, that's almost possible now.

Personally I would think that cloaking tech should be reserved for spies and lone wolf type attackers, or at least for some sort of ambush(for which your beetles can already burrow). If these beetles are assaulting targets in more than pairs I don't think cloaking is going to be of much use. Right now it seems like you're cloaking tanks, which seems rather pointless.

[triceretops]

Good questions. I've painted myself into a physics corner here.

They are the size of a small pickup truck, but weigh about 1,200 lbs, equipped with huge manibles that tear and shear (much like the giant Japanese wasp). They are genetically engineered by their master mantids, whose tech base is a couple thousand years more advanced than our own. They are cold-blooded, able to completely mask any detectable heat signiture They are impervious to chemical and radiation attacks. They can hold their breath for 20 minutes or so, and their exoskeleton will not allow entry of caustic, chemical, or other biological substances.

What I tried to do was devise the ultimate fighting animal, with great strength, which is impervious to almost all known methods of intrusive attack. I know that sounds impossible in a logistical sense, but their true weakness is physical trauma via antiquated projectile weapons, which my military knows nearly nothing about, since those old weapons are in museums and National Guard despositories. They had to requisition these old firearms in a last ditch effort to defend themselves against these things. There's not enough of these weapons to arm the military force, so the battle is one of desperation.

Mines wouldn't work--they can fly--take to the air and snag humans.

Now, your nano-spray, shot from a powerful hose cannon might be a good way to "stain" them so they could be picked up and targeted. Kind of reminds me of the way the invisible man was detected by splashing water on him.

Tri

[TheIT]

To add to merper's suggestions, what about simple paint bombs to mark the beetles as targets, or would the paint not stick? Electrify the floor? I'm assuming the beetles can't fly.

You might want to look into modern day pest control solutions, too. Isn't there something which emits high frequency sound or an electrical field that bugs can't stand to get near? Pesticides? What do the beetles eat?

Ugh, I'm starting to creep myself out. I can't stand bugs.

[TheIT]

Size of a pickup truck? I'm definitely getting creeped out...

[TheIT]

If the beetles are reflective, then would they be noticed if they cross a non-reflective surface? Instead of looking for the beetles directly, look for changes in appearance of the land.

Also, if they're that big, how much impact do they have on the ground when they move? Motion sensors or seismic detectors might help.

I take back the chemical suggestions. How about shrapnel mines or grenades?

[triceretops]

My soldiers are Air Marines (in the future) and they are nearly inept when it comes to fighting a ground war, since in the future 90% of the conflicts are solved by air war. My grunts are also very green, with no battle tested experience, since there hasn't been a war for 50-years. The day that they were armed with bazookas and frag grenades, they killed so many of their buddies (friendly fire) through sheer ignorance and panic that those types of weapons were pulled from the inventory. They were given crash courses on how to fire BARs, mini-guns, M-16s and recoiless riftles. And even then, they had terrible accidents during battles. A lot of my troops are turning coward--they're totally unfamiliar with this type of enemy, never fought a ground war, and even these old weapons are foreign to them.

Now, this paint marker idea is sounding very good, because these creatures attack in waves or swarms at times (Picture Starship Troopers), so they could definitely be struck by paint or tagging liquids.

Tri

[Mayor of Moronia]

Underground radar will do the trick of locating them. You can also detonate explosives and study the seismic patterns.

Air Marines are "Air Commandos."

[Peggy]

Photon, lasers, or light weapons do no good against them, since their exoskelton (chitan) can transform into a mirror-like reflective film, hense their immunity to such weapons. (Similar to the way a cuttle fish can instantly change its exterior--laser weapons bounce off them).

The beetles give off no heat sig, so they cannot be detected with infrared. Nor do they give off any pheremone (sp?) sig to be picked up. It's not clear to me why they wouldn't be detectable by RADAR (radio wave echos) or echolocation (bouncing sound waves). Also, as someone pointed out, they also reflect light, so they should be detectable that way.

[MidnightMuse]

Get yourself one big-a$$ can of Raid :D

Seriously, are projectiles necessary? What about chemical warfare?

[Peggy]

Get yourself one big-a$$ can of Raid :D

Seriously, are projectiles necessary? What about chemical warfare? Or biological warfare? Any critter will be vulnerable if you can design an appropriate virus . . .

[triceretops]

I've used underground radar initially in the beginning to detect their burrows and nests (from the hovering combat aircraft). But when my "commandos" entered these tunnels to flush them out, the beetles simply used complicated escape routes to avoid detection, then later ambushed those soldeirs when they returned to the surface.

The only way, so far, that my soldiers have detected these creatures, is by ground disturbance, and have had to fire blindly in that direction, which has not been totally effective and a waste of ammunition. But by then it has been too late for the grunts, since these things move and pounce so fast. Invariably one or two always gets though to tear my grunts to shreds. There are millions of these beetle invaders, attacking cities, suburbs, and virtually every populated community.

I'm looking for a device that can give "instant eyes" to the troopers to spot the outlines of these creatures. Marker liquids might work, but you would have to spray an enournous area, with like gattlin paint ball guns to hit anything to tag it. So the marker idea is good, but it's a secondary device that requires extra time and coordination.

Tri

[Peggy]

Something like this?
http://www.biotech-info.net/gene_therapy.html

ETA: to kill them, not detect them.

[triceretops]

Thanks, Peggy. Yes, they would give off a solid radar return, and I was leaning toward the idea of a portable helmet mounted radar device that would ping the creatures and send a return through their helmet face shields, thus showing a solid object. Thus they could bring their weapons to bear on them instantly and fire.

Yes, if they can reflect light, they can be seen. Hense the idea of a laser shot, which would make them go into the reflective mode, which would offer the opportunity of a soldier to take them out with a large caliber bullet.

I thought about chemical (the Raid factor) but dismissed it since it might harm earth's environment, and it might be too costly to produce, and not produced fast enough to stave off this mass and swift attack. R&D is responsible for coming up with a defensive device, which puts (instant eyes) on these things.

There is nothing that says I can't use all of these ideas, or a combination of them to fight them off.

Tri

[TheIT]

What range of frequencies do night vision goggles receive? Perhaps goggles plus some sort of "spotlight" which shines in a frequency which won't blind someone wearing the goggles but will reflect off the beetles. Might be useful for tunnels.

[triceretops]

Hmmm...a controlled frequency sound screecher. Or a weapon that puts out a massive electromagnetic pulse, which would disrupt the creature's neuro/sensory system--fry the brain receptors. Still they haven't got "eyes on" the target to do that efficiently.

I don't think electrocution would work, since you would need gun capable of ejecting something akin to a lightning bolt.

The bio/toxin, which is harmless to humans, but lethal to them, is a good idea except that the beetles can evade it by escaping to their massive network of tunnels, reapearing somewhere else, then taking wing to avoid it entirely. You'd have to spray every acre of the U.S. to get them. Not enough time for that. Unless they spray major metropolitan areas, and the bugs won't cross those toxic boundaries for fear of being contaminated. What is a rain comes and washes the toxic blanket away?

Tri

[AceTachyon]

Yes, if they can reflect light, they can be seen. Hense the idea of a laser shot, which would make them go into the reflective mode, which would offer the opportunity of a soldier to take them out with a large caliber bullet.


Laser targeting on their weapons? Paint them, they go reflective, three-round burst of HE rounds or similar load.

[triceretops]

Yeah, you mean what light spectrum. I thought of a black light, but I think that is called ultraviolet light, and I'm not sure that a creature would give off a chemical or gas adequate enough to be picked up by such a thing. Stars in our universe can be picked up by many spectrums of light because they emit certain gas and chemical signitures.

the only thing I can think of that an animal might give off would be a heat or infrared sig. Alas these things don't emit gas, chemicals, or heat because they match the temp of the atmosphere.

tri

[Peggy]

The bio/toxin, which is harmless to humans, but lethal to them, is a good idea except that the beetles can evade it by escaping to their massive network of tunnels, reapearing somewhere else, then taking wing to avoid it entirely. You'd have to spray every acre of the U.S. to get them. Not enough time for that. Unless they spray major metropolitan areas, and the bugs won't cross those toxic boundaries for fear of being contaminated. What is a rain comes and washes the toxic blanket away? The beauty of a virus is that it replicates :) Some species of insects could carry the virus without being killed by it. Would the beetles even notice a pesky swarm of gnats?

[triceretops]

Yeah, Ace, that's getting close. Why not a powerful laser cannon mounted in tandem with an M-16. You fire the laser at the thing, maybe a constant stream, and the thing morphs to its reflective mode to protect itself, then you let the bastid have it with the solid round.

The laser stream would have to be powerful enough to truly threaten the creature, and not be a simple targeting laser. So I could see that this would work. the standard issue of my soldiers is laser-type weapons, like photon rifles. Two soldiers working in concert could easily take a beetle down--one spots--one kills. In reality the beetle is being tricked into showing itself. Clever.

Tri

[triceretops]

Did I mention that these beetles are laying eggs where ever they go? Well they are, so Peggy, your idea would work for doing the final mop up, erradicating all traces fo them.

There was a science program on that showed how a small fly stuck a larvae in the thorax of an ant, which later killed the ant host, but let the little fly grow and hatch within the ant's head.

Tri

[AceTachyon]

The laser stream would have to be powerful enough to truly threaten the creature, and not be a simple targeting laser. So I could see that this would work. the standard issue of my soldiers is laser-type weapons, like photon rifles. Two soldiers working in concert could easily take a beetle down--one spots--one kills. In reality the beetle is being tricked into showing itself. Clever.


Why does the laser need to be threatening? Isn't it just going to make them show themselves?

Or do they need to be threatened before showing themselves?

If it's the latter, then yeah, have your troops team up, spotter and shooter.

[triceretops]

Yes, the creatures have to be threatened to show themselves. Much like an octopus or cuttle fish flashes a warning by changing bright colors, these things are able to ward off a laser stream by going brilliant chrome silver the nano-second they detect a light projectile headed their way. And for them to anticipate and beat a light beam by throwing up a defensive posture is owed to these super intelligent mantids who are riding within them, hooked up to all the beetles sensory organs.

tri

[Andrew Jameson]

And for them to anticipate and beat a light beam by throwing up a defensive posture is owed to these super intelligent mantids who are riding within them, hooked up to all the beetles sensory organs.They can anticipate and beat something moving at the speed of light? No way.

[triceretops]

No they can't beat light--no animal nervous system can do that. the way I described those weapons in the beginning of the book, is that they make a charging hum just before the the trigger is depressed to fire it. The smart aliens (inside the beetles) detect this cycling and instantly activate this reflective device. The mantid's sensory apparatus is also tied in with the creature's system. the minute a soldier gets close enough to raise or point the rifle,(and provided he's even aiming in the correct direction to begin with) the mantid sees this through the beetle's vision and reacts to it. So these creatures are blinking on an off (sometimes staying on), deflecting these shots.

Believe me, I did not want to approach the Star Wars version of a Jedi swinging a light saber, deflecting photon shots via muscular hand/eye coordination.

Tri

[TheIT]

Sounds like it's time to develop a silencer for the guns, providing the soldiers figure out that's what the aliens are reacting to. Perhaps some sort of cover "hum" which happens all the time?

[Andrew Jameson]

No they can't beat light--no animal nervous system can do that. the way I described those weapons in the beginning of the book, is that they make a charging hum just before the the trigger is depressed to fire it. So there you go. Attach a charge pack to an old-fashioned projectile rifle. Soldier hits the "hummer" button, the charger makes a noise, the bug goes mirror-like, and a 50-caliber slug takes it out. Easy-peasy.

[triceretops]

Yeah, I certainly thought about that. You would think R&D would have diagnosed that problem and got their techs on it right away. Ironically, my futuristic military is quite numb and dumb in dealing with this sudden attack--the command structure begins to break down, There's in-fighting, turmoil and bureaucratic bafoonery, AWOLS, cowardice and desertion, failure to capture these things live, and many more snafus. I set it up this way so my environmentalists could solve the mystery of killing these things and saving the globe. It still needs a lot of work and figuring.

I WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY FOR THEIR TIME AND SUGGESTIONS. YOU'VE GOT ME THINKING ABOUT IMPROBABLE SCENARIOS AND SOME MAJOR PROBLEMS. I'm going to use some of the discussions in this post in my text among the scientists and problem solvers in an emergency tactical meeting. It explores all the possibilities of dealing with the menace.

Tri

[triceretops]

Yow, Andrew. Now THAT is innovative! The bugs pick up on the "danger" frequency and go protective/reflective--bam! You're outta here.

Kind of reminds of the scene in Sargeant York, where Alvin (Gary Cooper) whistles to get the Germans to pop their head up, only to get shot down.

Well done!

Tri

[Ordinary_Guy]

Triceretops, judging by the responses you've gotten here so far, your dodge-sized beetles are in deep doo-doo. Which, as I think about it, makes me wonder if the soldiers might not refer to the invaders as "dungs" (after the terrestrial beetle).

A million things popped to mind while browsing your thread but I'll just reflect on a few...
In my story I have giant alien rhino beetles drop-shipped into mass (earth) populations
How'd they get here? Giant, slow-moving colony ships that have been in-transit for thousands of years? A string of FTL transport ships? Could they be intercepted before they get to earth? 75 years in the future, our space presence is going to be a lot different than it is today (it'll be even denser out there if it's been reasonably peaceful on earth).

Further, are they aiming to take over the earth? Subjugate the native race? Wipe it out? If they just want to eliminate any threat of us, all they have to do is let one of their space cruisers hit the planet at just sub-light speeds. A dummy, if you will. Figure that Meteor Crater (http://www.meteorcrater.com/index.htm) (AZ) was a rock maybe 150 wide traveling at 40k miles per hour left the crater it did. Now imagine a 5 mile wide asteroid fixed with an FTL that's aimed right at the planet and impacts 186k miles per second. Have you ever seen high speed photography of a bullet hitting an apple? Picture mother earth as the apple...

Even if it didn't obliterate the planet, it'd leave a heckuva exit hole and would certainly give us locals something else to worry about.
These creatures are able to burrow and hide, then pounce like trapdoor spiders, only they are aggressive and seek out victims.
Dude... at the size of a pickup truck, their "burrowing" isn't going to hide anything. They may be able to get away from the surface but in 75 years, it's likely we'll have AI-driven combat bots that'll be able to fly right in after them. Maybe wait 'till they've burrowed just deep enough, then fly right up their not-so-proverbial butts and KAPOW!
Inside these giant beetles reside smaller mantid aliens, who are the smart masters, and they drive these beetles as though they were vehicles, through a symbiotic relationship.
Excellent, a second piece to the puzzle – the soft, chewy interior. Even if the outside is a tank, the inside will likely have weaknesses all its own – and those can be exploited.
The beetles can go cammy with their environment and are extremely difficult to see, aside from disturbing the environment ie., kicking up dirt and leaves when they run to attack
At the size of a pickup truck, even if these things were effectively invisible, those beetle legs are going to kick up a huge disturbance. You don't need to see it to shoot it, you just need to be able to see where it's at. If it's moving, it's a goner – soldiers just lead their fire.
They are quite heavy, so they do produce sound waves when traveling fast across the dirt.
Probably pretty distinctive ones at that. Granma can shoot at sounds, soldiers can too. Give a soldier an earpiece that ties into a rifle-integrated targeting system and they'll be able to zero these guys on sound alone.
Photon, lasers, or light weapons do no good against them, since their exoskelton (chitan) can transform into a mirror-like reflective film, hense their immunity to such weapons. (Similar to the way a cuttle fish can instantly change its exterior--laser weapons bounce off them).
Major complications here and Andrew Jameson hit the nail on the head. The "hum" is a nice attempt around it, but TheIT brought up silencers... You've also got the possibility of noise-cancellation on the rifles themselves (just like expensive headphones have today). AJ also suggested the laser/projectile flip-flop to smoke them out.

But it doesn't even have to get that complicated. If the soldier is more than, say, 100 feet away, chances are the itty-bitty whine won't carry far enough to be detectable. From 500 feet away, the lil' buggers'll never hear it coming.

But it gets better: if the bugs have one iota of dust, their reflective protection goes out the window. Look what happens if you get a fingerprint on a lens or mirror and a high-watt laser goes through it: your lens goes boom. Same thing with their chitinous little bee-hinds. The dirt they still have on from burrowing ablates in about a millisecond, forms into a superheated plasma and blows them a new orifice before the laser actually punches through.

But why stop at optical lasers? What about IR or UV lasers? 75 years from now, we'll have x-ray lasers (we're almost there now). The mirrored surface wouldn't reflect these other wavelengths. What about Masers (microwave lasers)? Particle beams? Uasers (http://reports.discoverychannel.ca/servlet/an/discovery/1/20060609/discovery_audio_laser_060609?s_name=&no_ads=)? Plasma beams?
The beetles give off no heat sig, so they cannot be detected with infrared. Nor do they give off any pheremone (sp?) sig to be picked up.
No heat sig, no problem (this one has been thoroughly treated already).
My military is working hard on trying to find a way of detecting these animals so they can be targeted with "old" conventional projectile weapons. (The military has a tech base that's 75 years into our future)
75 years in the future, the slug throwers may be deadlier than the DEWs. You'll have timed detonators on bullets so they self-destruct in mid-air (and fragmentation peppers who ever is hiding around a given corner). With micro-circuitry, you'll likely have bullets that can curve trajectory, auto-correct, lock on to targets – a hit those targets with APHE heads.

If anything, the DEWs will cook the majority and the projectiles will finish off those that have managed to hide.
What am I missing here?
The only way I could see the aliens even getting a foothold is if the earth is still balkanized and the aliens land in some backwater areas – but the native country cries sovereignty issues doesn't allow the UN/major powers to move in while they can still be managed.

Of course, that lil' country is going to be destroyed in short order, then it's not really an issue anymore. Still could make for a dramatic fight on home turf (where you can write about dogs-and-cats-living-together/mass hysteria), but based on the technology you've described, the home team is going to serve beetle burgers in short order.

[triceretops]

Ordinary guy, thank you for that precise and logical exploration of the topic. I've just hard copied it so I can evaluate my tech base verses the enemy physiology. You have many sound points, and it did not occur to me about the (future) advances in projectile ammo, as it applies to taking out specialty targets.

I love the term "dungs" and I'm going to use that as a derogatory moniker. Never had a name for them before.

The dust factor is relevent in this scenario, because obviously the outside carapace would be littered with it, and leaves and other flotsam, so I'll have to consider this. I never state that these animals are completely invisible, only very hard to see.

They do leave massive spray fans of dirt when they burrow, and that is how their dens are located from the air, via ships and drones. But they are more elaborate with their mazes, traps and tunnels, and would put the Japs on Iwo to shame.

I've already sent auto-mech (robotic smart bombs) after them, but the dungs pay no attention to non-organics, don't attack them and, in fact, know them for what they are and avoid them. Now that doesn't mean I shouldn't send swift smart bots chasing them through their tunnels with high explosive packages and have them detonate when in proximity. I haven't tried that. It would certainly mean that those smart bot bombs would have to be expendable due to collapsing earth. Use once and fo-ged-abowd-it.

The mantids are a superior race that want to eliminate all human mammals on earth without using chemicals, asteroids, tsunamis, nuclear devices, or any other means, and it has to do with their desire to take over and inhabit the beautiful real estate. The want a pristine environment, no contaminents, no kicking the planet off its axis, no disasters to the atmoshphere or environment. And in book one I explore the history, sociology, and culture of these creatures and explain why they do things so differently. They have a really twisted sense of morality and honor, something almost resembling the Samari/Bushido code of ethics and behavior, but with a dark and brutal side.

I just didn't want another typical SF bug hunt. Cripes we've tons of arthropods in movies and books as it is. I chose the rhinocerous beetle, and upped its size, because it is currently the strongest animal in the world, able to lift 800 times its own weight. The mantids, who genically engineered them, are the masters, and they're able to actually slip inside these big pets (just under the Scutellum structure) and link with them symbiotically via a special proboscis. So the threat is actually the smart mantids, who drive and control these dungs.

Alas, I have sooooo many technical glitches to solve with this. I'm just about finished with it, but I know now that major changes have to be made to make it work and suspend disbelief.

Tri

[triceretops]

As an interesting side note: I had one agent, Michael Psaltis, who read one of my other SF books (unrelated to these) and who told me that my concept was excellent, great writing and the characters sprang off the page. But my world-building just plain sucked like a Holly four-barrel. Hence he was not inclined to go any further with it.

Just goes to show you if you haven't got at least an inking about what plausible science is, then your headed down a dirt road to no where. I think if anybody ever tells me that writing SF is easy, I'm going to shoot him with a white-hot plasma, laser, maser blaster thingamajiggy.

Ya juss GOT to get your science right. And I'm still light years from it.

Tri

[Ordinary_Guy]

Ya juss GOT to get your science right. And I'm still light years from it.
For stuff we already have a grasp on – yeah, you've at least got to get close. For the far out stuff, you've got more wiggle room.

...With good characterizations, though, you've already got half the battle – the half that SF writers usually don't do so well with. You're doin' alright.

As for "dungs" – cool. Happy to help. If you get it published, I might ask for an autographed copy...

[triceretops]

Thanks, Ordinary. Well, my agent loved the first one. I have no idea what he's gonna think of this pile. But you have that copy, fer shure. Now time to red-shift outta here and go fight some dungs, wot?

Tri

[ChaosTitan]

As I read along with this thread, I was constantly reminded of the end of the film Evolution, when David Duchovny and Co. sprayed a truckload of dandruff shampoo up the under-cavity of a giant alien slug thingie. ::giggles::

Good luck, tri, it sounds like a fun novel!

[MadScientistMatt]

Used to work in an industrial laser job shop. Here are a few thoughts of my own on the bugs and reflectivity:

The mirrors in the laser equipment were 99-point-something reflective, in the frequency of the laser beam (they were much less reflective for visible light). They were mounted on water-cooled pads using a special thermal grease. I've seen them survive with an amazing amount of dust on them. But if anything ever happened to the water cooling, they would fail in minutes.

If there's any layer on top of the reflective material - which would be the case for most chromatophores, as they're designed for camoflage and not power transmission - that layer is not going to last long at all.

Some things about bugs do not scale very well. In particular, they're likely to need a new respiratory and circulatory system. And the leg joints on bugs are typically flexible parts of the exoskeleton - I don't think that would work very well at holding up a 1,200 lb bug. The legs themselves are likely to follow a different design too - they'll probably tuck up under the bug like a horse's legs, rather than going out sideways like many insect legs. It definitely won't look exactly like a magnified bug; these critters will need some major changes.

[triceretops]

Good points Matt. Yes, I've changed the morphology of the bug to represent a more up-scaled creature. One of the problems I have is, I'm having the bugs move just a little too fast for their bulk on a gravity planet like ours. I have time to tweak it into shape. I want to get close with specifics, yet remain in the territory of "Well, the aliens made them, what the hell do we know?" But i don't want to overdo that.

Rhino beetles would not dig these complicated burrows, so I had to adapt mine so they were equipped with special shoveling apparatus on the head, and scalloped legs.

I'll study the properties of laser light some more and see if I'm goofing.

ETA: I think what I can do is have the beetles do a shimmy or vibrate (much like a croc/dog) to loose this carpet of dust, thus keeping themselves clean all the time. Must. Think. On. This.

Tri

[Andrew Jameson]

If your mantids are smart enough to genetically engineer beetles, and they're into symbiotic relationships, then they can and will genetically engineer other species.

Like, for example, small parasites living in the beetle's skin, who could be engineered to clean off the skin in exchange for having a safe and warm place to live.

On Matt's scaling issue: Your rhino beetles are probably going to wind up looking like...rhinos. Mammalian type rhinos. I'd use that as the base structural form and tweak to make it buglike. One thing that doesn't scale very well is using the exoskeleton as the main support skeleton. You might consider giving your bugs a supplementary internal skeleton.

[triceretops]

Yes, it's true about the exoskeleton not quite being enough for such a large bug. Such morphology is designed for the small and micro-species. Some type of an internal framework might be needed.

The worst problem I have to consider is their ability to withstand a vacumn environment, since they attacked a moon base and a colony on Titan. The creatures are only good enough for 20 minutes or so in such an environment--having extra lung tubes by which they reserve air. I'm working out how they can withstand extreme pressure and temperatures. Not easy at all.

I know, I know...a whole new can of worms here. I have to design a creature that is nearly impervious, and it's a lot more difficult than I imagined.

Tri

[Ordinary_Guy]

If your mantids are smart enough to genetically engineer beetles, and they're into symbiotic relationships, then they can and will genetically engineer other species.
From the human POV, this is great – each new link in the chain makes another potential weak spot we can exploit.
Like, for example, small parasites living in the beetle's skin, who could be engineered to clean off the skin in exchange for having a safe and warm place to live.
An excellent idea – but also gives us a potential entry point for chemicals, biological weapons or even micro-mechanical bots (motes?). It also gives us a chance to mess with the little guys – flip them out and watch them start attacking the rhinos... from the inside.
On Matt's scaling issue: Your rhino beetles are probably going to wind up looking like...rhinos. Mammalian type rhinos. I'd use that as the base structural form and tweak to make it buglike. One thing that doesn't scale very well is using the exoskeleton as the main support skeleton. You might consider giving your bugs a supplementary internal skeleton.
Very true. One of the reasons bugs have such high strength-to-weigh ratios is how little exoskeleton is involved versus the strength of their muscle fiber. The fiber itself isn't actually all that strong – but in it's ratio, it's phenomenal. Scaling it up pushes it over the "Law of Diminishing Returns" threshold into a point of abject failure.

I wish I could remember where I saw it, but some scientist had addressed the giant ants "Them!" People had real concerns about nuclear waste (or something like that) turning ants into killer mutants and this guy talked about how even if you did get a giant arachnid, it would likely be ponderous and short lived.

[Ordinary_Guy]

...The worst problem I have to consider is their ability to withstand a vacumn environment, since they attacked a moon base and a colony on Titan...
That environment thing really is a killer.

An ability to operate efficiently in one will usually preclude it working efficiently in another.
I know, I know...a whole new can of worms here. I have to design a creature that is nearly impervious, and it's a lot more difficult than I imagined.
Within one range of technology, there will be certain engineering tradeoffs between systems. If Widget XYZ really good at Job 1, that means it probably won't be so hot at Job 2. By the same token, Widget ABC may be decent at both jobs, but will be great at neither.

Now... when you start changing whole paradigms of supporting technology, it gives engineering the freedom to make Widget XYZ better at both jobs. At a certain point, though, if one group of widget makers (the aliens) are so far advanced, it's likely that they would take an entirely different approach to Job 1.

Just something to think about.

[triceretops]

Well, I've got them doing the croc shimmy to erradicate those pesky dust motes, so they're a mean, clean, fighting machine, err...bug.

These mantids could easily understand and apply theoretical quatumn (sp) mechanics, but they are akin to a brainy scientist, who could recite the entire full tech spiel and solve the mysteries of the universe, yet not know how to open a can with a can opener. Therein lies their weakness. It's always the simple things that you overlook that gets you in trouble. Yet that still is not the way I end this, because that's just too close to Independence Day and War of the Worlds.

My agent asked me to please push the genre on this one. I think what I'm doing is shoving it over a cliff!

Tri

[MadScientistMatt]

I'm not sure I would bother with the dust motes at all - you aren't going to get a biological skin to be a perfect reflector anyway. Just give them some sort of feature in their circulatory system that can cool local hotspots on their skin. Unless they can reach 100% reflectivity, they'll need a good cooling mechanism anyway.

[JrsyMan]

Hey triceretops,

Newbie here. Found your thread interesting so I thought maybe I'd throw down my 2 cents, for what it's worth. As others and you yourself pointed out, standard radar (for above ground) and ground penetrating (for below) seem to be the most logical choices for detection. They would certainly fit with the use of as you put it, "old" conventional projectile weapons. Sonar in the event you want to branch out their methods of attacking and include bodies of water. A hand-held or helmet mounted device would work, ala the hand trackers used by the soldiers in 'Aliens'. Their defensive camouflage abilities make them quite formidable. Even though they can disguise themselves visually it seems to me physics still apply. They can't disguise or displace their mass so that's one means of detection. Invisible or not they still occupy space. When burrowing through tunnels they are going to kick up debris and noise. If a device can't detect them directly then perhaps it can detect changes in the enviroment around them, sort of like how we can't see a black hole but the light and space bending around it reveal it's there. Muting the power cycle noise from the laser probably would not make much difference. Ordinary guy brought up a good point about the dust and reflectivity issues. If you're still looking to get around that another way is to have some sort of coating on their shells akin to teflon, a non-stick surface. Ok, so the troops take out two maybe three beetles before the others see the weapons being used against them and change up to reflective armor. Then there's the additional concern of the confined spaces in the tunnels. I would think the soldiers are not stupid enough to fire blind and take the chance of one of those ricochetting beams slicing them in half. Beam weapons are useless you come up with something (perhaps ultrasonic) that could de-stabilize the reflective coloring in a concentrated area which the lasers could then target. They're mobility also comes into play. The legs would be a point of vulnerability so think about that as well. A foam or adhesive like substance could be fired at them, trapping them like, well a flytrap. From there it's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Well, that's all for now. If I think of more I'll add it later.

Jrsy

[triceretops]

Thanks, Jrsyman. Very intelligent reckoning, if I may say. Now that teflon type coating sounds real probable to me. A skin that is microscopically designed in such a way as to repel (no hold) external dust and debris.

Tri

[JrsyMan]

You are welcome Tri. I forgot to ad that if you did use some kind of spray on foam or adhesive to imobilize them those robot drone bombs could also be used to take 'em out.

..I can't believe I made it through that whole first post and wrote They're instead of Their...

[Nexusman]

Hm, going back to the bit about the mantids detecting the sound for the laser-charge, what about changing the guns so instead of charging before the shot, they recharge after the shot?

-Nick

[Birol]

Back to the original question: detection. How do MRI's and CAT scans work? Could that medical technology somehow be adapted to help reveal where the dungs are located?

[RJLeahy]

Go after the mantids. Find something to trace the mantids, something they forgot (heart beat, etc.) They have been so busy perfecting their "weapon", they forgot they themselves were in it. just an idea.

[Popeyesays]

"Photon, lasers, or light weapons do no good against them, since their exoskelton (chitan) can transform into a mirror-like reflective film, hense their immunity to such weapons. (Similar to the way a cuttle fish can instantly change its exterior--laser weapons bounce off them)."

If the change is not instantaneous ( and it can't be because the chemical reaction is nowhere as fast as the speed of light), the laser will still do damage, but much reduced. A pulse laser (like a strobe lamp) might do even more damage since the skin would change, change back, change, change back, and more laser energy would be effective.

If a laser beam hits a mirror, the mirror will still shatter from the heat transfer.
A powerful laser that hits flesh will cause damage because the tissue beneath is turned to steam and parboils the tissue.

In short the laser will be effective, but the effectiveness wil be greatly reduced.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

Armor can be defeated three ways and it all means something burns through the armor, turns the armor into a plasma which kills or destroys everything inside the armored vehicle (creature).

Kinetic energy can be transfered to heat which burns the armor, which creates the plasma which kills the creature (vehicle)

Photonic energy (laser) can be transfered to heat which burns the armor, which creates the plasma, which kills the vehicle (critter)

Chemical energy (like a shaped charge warhead on a TOW or an armor piercing grenade) creates heat, which burns the armor, which creates the plasma, which kills the (critter) vehicle.

The only way to pierce armor without using heat is if a tooth or wea[pon is sufficently wielded to crush the armor and penetrates the insides to stab it or the occupants to death.Regards,
Scott

[dclary]

What about something gravitic?

Just brainstorming here...

But you know how a crocodile can place thousands of pounds of pressure into closing his jaws... but has no "opening my mouth" strength, which is why if you can get your arms around his mouth you just have to worry about his arms, tail, and being dragged underwater and stuffed into a tree branch until your drown.

Maybe these insects can take great PUSHING damage, stuff pushing or trying to penetrate their armor... but a gravity well could pull the stuff off like shingles in a tornado?

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

Trice, nothing messes up a good adventure fantasy quicker than nit-picking the details. I feel like you're getting bogged down in minutiae rather than writing a good story.

Nobody's going to read Verne or Welles or Burroughs looking for spot-on science. And some of the worst nit-pickers are Star Trek fans who can't explain to me the glaring problems with gravitic plates & replicators, much less the Holodeck. Seems to me that writing for the latter when you could go for fans of the former would be a better idea.

Consider making your beetles smaller. Have you stopped to consider how many calories each of these truck-size things would have to take in every hour just to survive, much less to fight constantly, much less to fight & reproduce?

Weapons? Directed microwave. Beetle baked in its own shell. Problem solved.

Or, certain other types of stimulated-emission weapons that wouldn't need so much focus & could be directed generally, relying on the beast's carapace to re-radiate a complex burst of damaging frequencies.

Chitin itself is cellularly stable, & there's no way that it could change to match its background, much less do the "ghost suit" trick. If it can't do that, then instant mirroring would be impossible, by extension.

Want to kill bugs? A fine mist of orange oil -- for all I know, just about any aromatic oil. They don't have nifty things like damp mouths or nostrils or throats to filter the air, & the oil coats their organs, limiting further intake of oxygen.

For similar reasons, powdered glass should also work.

Don't forget about chrysanthemums. (If you've done research on insects, you'll know what I'm talking about.)

And those are just some stray thoughts from a sociologist who reads a little science fiction -- most potential readers are far more picky.

[Higgins]

Yeah, you mean what light spectrum. I thought of a black light, but I think that is called ultraviolet light, and I'm not sure that a creature would give off a chemical or gas adequate enough to be picked up by such a thing. Stars in our universe can be picked up by many spectrums of light because they emit certain gas and chemical signitures.

the only thing I can think of that an animal might give off would be a heat or infrared sig. Alas these things don't emit gas, chemicals, or heat because they match the temp of the atmosphere.

tri

Just use a phased-array of lasers to spot them and them hit them with hypersonic projectiles. These could be very small but deadily due to kinetic energy. Put them on giant dirigibles and zip...no more beetles.