Science question help.

triceretops · Aug 9, 2006

In my story I have giant alien rhino beetles drop-shipped into mass (earth) populations. These creatures are able to burrow and hide, then pounce like trapdoor spiders, only they are aggressive and seek out victims. Inside these giant beetles reside smaller mantid aliens, who are the smart masters, and they drive these beetles as though they were vehicles, through a symbiotic relationship. The beetles can go cammy with their environment and are extremely difficult to see, aside from disturbing the environment ie., kicking up dirt and leaves when they run to attack. They are quite heavy, so they do produce sound waves when traveling fast across the dirt.

Photon, lasers, or light weapons do no good against them, since their exoskelton (chitan) can transform into a mirror-like reflective film, hense their immunity to such weapons. (Similar to the way a cuttle fish can instantly change its exterior--laser weapons bounce off them).

The beetles give off no heat sig, so they cannot be detected with infrared. Nor do they give off any pheremone (sp?) sig to be picked up.

My military is working hard on trying to find a way of detecting these animals so they can be targeted with "old" conventional projectile weapons. (The military has a tech base that's 75 years into our future)

Question: Is it possible that my military scientists could invent any type of device that would pick these creatures up in any known spectrum of light? Could they invent some type of X-ray gimmick to see them comming?

The only thing I can think of would be a sonar mounted device on their battle helmets that would ping the target and transform some type of image into their face plate, to allow them to see these things so they could shoot them.

What am I missing here?

Tri

dclary · Aug 9, 2006

A couple of things I'd try, if I were on the military R&D team.

A) Motion Detecting sensors?

B) If we're talking about defending a position, then laser-beam tripwire-style defenses.. Set up a perimeter of laser beams that get broken as the animals come in. Cameras interpreting the breaking of the beams can project the location of targets through computer interpretation.

c) Laser-tagging via harpoon.... An advanced recon guy spearguns a tracking beacon into an incoming heavy, and all weapons target the beacon.

triceretops · Aug 9, 2006

Aaaa...that's very good. My soldiers have to actively seek them out.

And I just had a Doh! moment, since you reminded about something. If these creatures turn a brilliant chrome silver while deflecting a laser shot, it would mean that they ARE visible momentarily! So if you have one grunt attempting to shoot this creature with a laser round, while another grunt is standing by with a mini-gun, it would certainly become visible for an instant (or longer depending upon the rate of laser fire) to take a direct bullet hit. the laser wielders could be called "spotters" or something.

OMG, I never thought of that during the past 200 pages of fighting. Now I have to think up a theory of why that wouldn't work, or go back in there and incoporate that idea.

Any other suggestions?

Tri

TheIT · Aug 9, 2006

Please clarify - how big are the beetles? Cat size, dog, or horse?

Could an area be defended by laying down glue, or something which might catch their legs? Chemical weapons?

Do they emit any smells or sounds which might be detected? Why no heat signature? Are they cold or do they have the same temperature as the environment?

merper · Aug 9, 2006

What's wrong with mines around the city? Use an agressive air defense to stop them from dropping beetles into the city and turn the perimeter into a no man's land of mines.

If it's 75 years in the future, barring any sort of industrial collpase, they can easily have robotic drones track the beetles by sound, spray them with a cloud of nano particles to light up the targets. And the grunts can have HUDs built into their helmets that can light up the nanodots for them. Hell, that's almost possible now.

Personally I would think that cloaking tech should be reserved for spies and lone wolf type attackers, or at least for some sort of ambush(for which your beetles can already burrow). If these beetles are assaulting targets in more than pairs I don't think cloaking is going to be of much use. Right now it seems like you're cloaking tanks, which seems rather pointless.

triceretops · Aug 9, 2006

Good questions. I've painted myself into a physics corner here.

They are the size of a small pickup truck, but weigh about 1,200 lbs, equipped with huge manibles that tear and shear (much like the giant Japanese wasp). They are genetically engineered by their master mantids, whose tech base is a couple thousand years more advanced than our own. They are cold-blooded, able to completely mask any detectable heat signiture They are impervious to chemical and radiation attacks. They can hold their breath for 20 minutes or so, and their exoskeleton will not allow entry of caustic, chemical, or other biological substances.

What I tried to do was devise the ultimate fighting animal, with great strength, which is impervious to almost all known methods of intrusive attack. I know that sounds impossible in a logistical sense, but their true weakness is physical trauma via antiquated projectile weapons, which my military knows nearly nothing about, since those old weapons are in museums and National Guard despositories. They had to requisition these old firearms in a last ditch effort to defend themselves against these things. There's not enough of these weapons to arm the military force, so the battle is one of desperation.

Mines wouldn't work--they can fly--take to the air and snag humans.

Now, your nano-spray, shot from a powerful hose cannon might be a good way to "stain" them so they could be picked up and targeted. Kind of reminds me of the way the invisible man was detected by splashing water on him.

Tri

TheIT · Aug 9, 2006

To add to merper's suggestions, what about simple paint bombs to mark the beetles as targets, or would the paint not stick? Electrify the floor? I'm assuming the beetles can't fly.

You might want to look into modern day pest control solutions, too. Isn't there something which emits high frequency sound or an electrical field that bugs can't stand to get near? Pesticides? What do the beetles eat?

Ugh, I'm starting to creep myself out. I can't stand bugs.

TheIT · Aug 9, 2006

Size of a pickup truck? I'm definitely getting creeped out...

TheIT · Aug 9, 2006

If the beetles are reflective, then would they be noticed if they cross a non-reflective surface? Instead of looking for the beetles directly, look for changes in appearance of the land.

Also, if they're that big, how much impact do they have on the ground when they move? Motion sensors or seismic detectors might help.

I take back the chemical suggestions. How about shrapnel mines or grenades?

triceretops · Aug 9, 2006

My soldiers are Air Marines (in the future) and they are nearly inept when it comes to fighting a ground war, since in the future 90% of the conflicts are solved by air war. My grunts are also very green, with no battle tested experience, since there hasn't been a war for 50-years. The day that they were armed with bazookas and frag grenades, they killed so many of their buddies (friendly fire) through sheer ignorance and panic that those types of weapons were pulled from the inventory. They were given crash courses on how to fire BARs, mini-guns, M-16s and recoiless riftles. And even then, they had terrible accidents during battles. A lot of my troops are turning coward--they're totally unfamiliar with this type of enemy, never fought a ground war, and even these old weapons are foreign to them.

Now, this paint marker idea is sounding very good, because these creatures attack in waves or swarms at times (Picture Starship Troopers), so they could definitely be struck by paint or tagging liquids.

Tri

Mayor of Moronia · Aug 9, 2006

Underground radar will do the trick of locating them. You can also detonate explosives and study the seismic patterns.

Air Marines are "Air Commandos."

Peggy · Aug 9, 2006

triceretops said:
Photon, lasers, or light weapons do no good against them, since their exoskelton (chitan) can transform into a mirror-like reflective film, hense their immunity to such weapons. (Similar to the way a cuttle fish can instantly change its exterior--laser weapons bounce off them).

The beetles give off no heat sig, so they cannot be detected with infrared. Nor do they give off any pheremone (sp?) sig to be picked up.

It's not clear to me why they wouldn't be detectable by RADAR (radio wave echos) or echolocation (bouncing sound waves). Also, as someone pointed out, they also reflect light, so they should be detectable that way.

MidnightMuse · Aug 9, 2006

Get yourself one big-a$$ can of Raid

Seriously, are projectiles necessary? What about chemical warfare?

Peggy · Aug 9, 2006

MidnightMuse said:
Get yourself one big-a$$ can of Raid

Seriously, are projectiles necessary? What about chemical warfare?

Or biological warfare? Any critter will be vulnerable if you can design an appropriate virus . . .

triceretops · Aug 9, 2006

I've used underground radar initially in the beginning to detect their burrows and nests (from the hovering combat aircraft). But when my "commandos" entered these tunnels to flush them out, the beetles simply used complicated escape routes to avoid detection, then later ambushed those soldeirs when they returned to the surface.

The only way, so far, that my soldiers have detected these creatures, is by ground disturbance, and have had to fire blindly in that direction, which has not been totally effective and a waste of ammunition. But by then it has been too late for the grunts, since these things move and pounce so fast. Invariably one or two always gets though to tear my grunts to shreds. There are millions of these beetle invaders, attacking cities, suburbs, and virtually every populated community.

I'm looking for a device that can give "instant eyes" to the troopers to spot the outlines of these creatures. Marker liquids might work, but you would have to spray an enournous area, with like gattlin paint ball guns to hit anything to tag it. So the marker idea is good, but it's a secondary device that requires extra time and coordination.

Tri

Peggy · Aug 9, 2006

Something like this?
http://www.biotech-info.net/gene_therapy.html

ETA: to kill them, not detect them.

triceretops · Aug 9, 2006

Thanks, Peggy. Yes, they would give off a solid radar return, and I was leaning toward the idea of a portable helmet mounted radar device that would ping the creatures and send a return through their helmet face shields, thus showing a solid object. Thus they could bring their weapons to bear on them instantly and fire.

Yes, if they can reflect light, they can be seen. Hense the idea of a laser shot, which would make them go into the reflective mode, which would offer the opportunity of a soldier to take them out with a large caliber bullet.

I thought about chemical (the Raid factor) but dismissed it since it might harm earth's environment, and it might be too costly to produce, and not produced fast enough to stave off this mass and swift attack. R&D is responsible for coming up with a defensive device, which puts (instant eyes) on these things.

There is nothing that says I can't use all of these ideas, or a combination of them to fight them off.

Tri

TheIT · Aug 9, 2006

What range of frequencies do night vision goggles receive? Perhaps goggles plus some sort of "spotlight" which shines in a frequency which won't blind someone wearing the goggles but will reflect off the beetles. Might be useful for tunnels.

triceretops · Aug 9, 2006

Hmmm...a controlled frequency sound screecher. Or a weapon that puts out a massive electromagnetic pulse, which would disrupt the creature's neuro/sensory system--fry the brain receptors. Still they haven't got "eyes on" the target to do that efficiently.

I don't think electrocution would work, since you would need gun capable of ejecting something akin to a lightning bolt.

The bio/toxin, which is harmless to humans, but lethal to them, is a good idea except that the beetles can evade it by escaping to their massive network of tunnels, reapearing somewhere else, then taking wing to avoid it entirely. You'd have to spray every acre of the U.S. to get them. Not enough time for that. Unless they spray major metropolitan areas, and the bugs won't cross those toxic boundaries for fear of being contaminated. What is a rain comes and washes the toxic blanket away?

Tri

AceTachyon · Aug 9, 2006

triceretops said:
Yes, if they can reflect light, they can be seen. Hense the idea of a laser shot, which would make them go into the reflective mode, which would offer the opportunity of a soldier to take them out with a large caliber bullet.

Laser targeting on their weapons? Paint them, they go reflective, three-round burst of HE rounds or similar load.

triceretops · Aug 9, 2006

Yeah, you mean what light spectrum. I thought of a black light, but I think that is called ultraviolet light, and I'm not sure that a creature would give off a chemical or gas adequate enough to be picked up by such a thing. Stars in our universe can be picked up by many spectrums of light because they emit certain gas and chemical signitures.

the only thing I can think of that an animal might give off would be a heat or infrared sig. Alas these things don't emit gas, chemicals, or heat because they match the temp of the atmosphere.

tri

Peggy · Aug 9, 2006

triceretops said:
The bio/toxin, which is harmless to humans, but lethal to them, is a good idea except that the beetles can evade it by escaping to their massive network of tunnels, reapearing somewhere else, then taking wing to avoid it entirely. You'd have to spray every acre of the U.S. to get them. Not enough time for that. Unless they spray major metropolitan areas, and the bugs won't cross those toxic boundaries for fear of being contaminated. What is a rain comes and washes the toxic blanket away?

The beauty of a virus is that it replicates

Some species of insects could carry the virus without being killed by it. Would the beetles even notice a pesky swarm of gnats?

triceretops · Aug 9, 2006

Yeah, Ace, that's getting close. Why not a powerful laser cannon mounted in tandem with an M-16. You fire the laser at the thing, maybe a constant stream, and the thing morphs to its reflective mode to protect itself, then you let the bastid have it with the solid round.

The laser stream would have to be powerful enough to truly threaten the creature, and not be a simple targeting laser. So I could see that this would work. the standard issue of my soldiers is laser-type weapons, like photon rifles. Two soldiers working in concert could easily take a beetle down--one spots--one kills. In reality the beetle is being tricked into showing itself. Clever.

Tri

triceretops · Aug 9, 2006

Did I mention that these beetles are laying eggs where ever they go? Well they are, so Peggy, your idea would work for doing the final mop up, erradicating all traces fo them.

There was a science program on that showed how a small fly stuck a larvae in the thorax of an ant, which later killed the ant host, but let the little fly grow and hatch within the ant's head.

Tri

AceTachyon · Aug 9, 2006

triceretops said:
The laser stream would have to be powerful enough to truly threaten the creature, and not be a simple targeting laser. So I could see that this would work. the standard issue of my soldiers is laser-type weapons, like photon rifles. Two soldiers working in concert could easily take a beetle down--one spots--one kills. In reality the beetle is being tricked into showing itself. Clever.

Why does the laser need to be threatening? Isn't it just going to make them show themselves?

Or do they need to be threatened before showing themselves?

If it's the latter, then yeah, have your troops team up, spotter and shooter.

Science question help.

triceretops

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

triceretops

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

merper

triceretops

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

triceretops

Mayor of Moronia

Peggy

MidnightMuse

Midnight Reading

Peggy

triceretops

Peggy

triceretops

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

triceretops

AceTachyon

Odd person

triceretops

Peggy

triceretops

triceretops

AceTachyon

Odd person