Current state of punctuation.

Codger · Aug 1, 2006

I'm reading a novel by Cormac McCarthy ( (c) 2005), and am really enjoying it. There is one problem, and it's not limited to this author. Rules I struggled to learn about proper punctuation are completely ignored. I find it distracting to read, and have not adjusted to the "deficiencies": no dialog quotation marks, uneven use of apostrophes (dont, wont, goin,I'm, it's), incorrect use of period/question mark, e.g., "Where does he work."

Is this a new trend? Is it lazy writing? Is it sloppy editing? I'm enjoying the book, but as a writer, I'm troubled by this.

Am I being hypercritical? I must've wasted a lot of time in English class. And my teachers must have been terribly misinformed.

maestrowork · Aug 1, 2006

It might be a weird literary trend. Not sure. I know Chuck Palahniuk did that, too.

Elizabeth Slick · Aug 1, 2006

No, you are not alone!
I am also troubled, AND annoyed. Why do they get to be published when there are a dozen other authors who USE punctuation? I don't know. It is troubling.
There is another author who apparently thinks they are so "unique" that they do not have to use quotation marks when someone is speaking. There are plenty of other good books out there that use punctuation as they are supposed to. I will save my time for those.

Jamesaritchie · Aug 1, 2006

Codger said:
I'm reading a novel by Cormac McCarthy ( (c) 2005), and am really enjoying it. There is one problem, and it's not limited to this author. Rules I struggled to learn about proper punctuation are completely ignored. I find it distracting to read, and have not adjusted to the "deficiencies": no dialog quotation marks, uneven use of apostrophes (dont, wont, goin,I'm, it's), incorrect use of period/question mark, e.g., "Where does he work."

Is this a new trend? Is it lazy writing? Is it sloppy editing? I'm enjoying the book, but as a writer, I'm troubled by this.

Am I being hypercritical? I must've wasted a lot of time in English class. And my teachers must have been terribly misinformed.

Every last misuse of punctuation in his novels is intentional. Incredibly stupid, in my opinion, but there have always been writers who did exactly this. What this is is "art." Which, again in my opinion, should be spelled 'art. I'll leave it to you to fill in the missing letter.

You didn't waste your time in English class. Writer's like do this are no different than modern "artists" who call a pile of sugar packets art. Too, you'll always have another flock of dummies who pay a hundred thousand dollars for this same work of "art" that they could get at any supermarket for a few bucks,

Mallika · Aug 1, 2006

I'm unable to read and enjoy books that follow odd punctuation patterns. It's just too distracting and/or annoying to me.

johnnysannie · Aug 1, 2006

It's not a new trend by any means. A small number of writers have done this for decades. Read "Some Came Running" by James Jones and you'll note how he left off apostrophes too.

It may work for a few but I do my best to adhere to correct punctuation.

Gillhoughly · Aug 1, 2006

Write to the "author's" editor and offer to take up a collection to send the poor deprived fellow to a remedial class for fifth grade English.

Then mention since he's above the proper use of the language and its punctuation rules that YOU took the trouble to learn, then you're above purchasing/reading any more of his books. If you want to see that sort of thing you can always buy from Publish America.

Money. The bottom line is always money.

Note--it's to his editor. I did that years back for an otherwise good writer who fell down repeatedly on his research. His next book was much better.

Oh, yeah--I sent it via snail mail ANONYMOUSLY because I intended to submit work to that house in the future. There was no need to torpedo my career by slamming another's work!

Bufty · Aug 1, 2006

I forget the name of it, but last week I flicked through a book which had been recommended by a chat show book group and discovered every paragraph was preceded by double quotes. If a character spoke, their dialogue was in single quotes within the double ones. I guess it was supposed to give the impression the whole novel was being spoken, but it seemed weird.

Ordinary_Guy · Aug 1, 2006

Codger said:
...Is this a new trend?

Perhaps we've entered a new, um... "period" in the use of punctuation?

Codger said:
Is it lazy writing? Is it sloppy editing?

I've never read the guy but I think James mentioned it's intentional.

To me, that kind of flouting of "the rules" comes off as a gimmick. Unless I know the writer is exploring some odd linguistics, the style immediately makes me suspect the writer's concept. It's one thing to be cutting edge in the hopes of being clearer or better able to communicate. It's something else to be different just for the sake of being different (which tells me the writer's central plot/theme isn't good enough to stand on it's own).

Ordinary_Guy · Aug 1, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
Every last misuse of punctuation in his novels is intentional. Incredibly stupid, in my opinion, but there have always been writers who did exactly this. What this is is "art." Which, again in my opinion, should be spelled 'art. I'll leave it to you to fill in the missing letter.

So you're saying the writer is just 'arting around?

I have to agree. The style isn't much more than hot air and definitely not something I'd want to get behind.

So to speak.

Anonymisty · Aug 1, 2006

I find myself alarmed by the YA trend for books to be written in netspeak. (you know...the strange code people invented to make IM go quicker - things like "OMG!!!1 UR so kewl! LOLOL!!!!!!")

I work in a middle school library, and I try to read all the new books when they arrive, so I can make recommendations for the students. But when TTYL came in, I just couldn't read it. Made my head hurt.

zarch · Aug 1, 2006

Cormac McCarthy is one of my favorites. With regard to the lack of question marks ("Where does he work."): his books are about simple people. Ranchers, cowboys, rugged guys whose speaking may be so abrupt and gruff that their short questions do sound like statements.

Also, he's certainly not the only writer to (for the sake of dialect) drop the -g off of -ing words. That dialectical construct is so constant in ALL of his books, he probably doesn't feel the need to qualify it with an apostrophe anymore (or ever).

As far as the contractions and quotation marks go, who knows? Maybe his style serves as a reflection of his characters--simple, without regard to rules. Or maybe he just plain likes the way it looks on the page.

Personally, I don't put him in the same group with e.e. cummings in terms of look-at-me-everybody-I'm-different sort of rule-breaking.

Cormac McCarthy is an established and excellent author. He certainly doesn't rely on gimmicks.

rwam · Aug 1, 2006

In general, maybe it's a form of arrogance. But I think there's an exception. For instance, if it's a narration and the narrator is a child or only semi-literate and the reader wouldn't expect correct punctuation.

Otherwise, I find it very annoying.

HapiSofi · Aug 1, 2006

Some authors have enough clout to get away with artsy punctuation. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.

priceless1 · Aug 1, 2006

Elizabeth Slick said:
No, you are not alone!
I am also troubled, AND annoyed. Why do they get to be published when there are a dozen other authors who USE punctuation? I don't know. It is troubling.
There is another author who apparently thinks they are so "unique" that they do not have to use quotation marks when someone is speaking. There are plenty of other good books out there that use punctuation as they are supposed to. I will save my time for those.

This is a case where it takes two to rumba. We've had a number of manuscripts cross our desks that lack quotation marks and punctuation. These haven't been mainstream works, but rather innovative literature. Writers in this genre differentiate themselves with a particular style of writing and the lack of punctuation. This is not a mistake, but is done on purpose. It's, uh, art. Whether the manuscript is allowed to remain this way is ultimately up to the editing team.

Personally, it drives me insane because I come from the old school where your paper was lined in red ink if you forgot a period or comma. To see this particular aberration entering mainstream fiction is, I feel, a huge mistake because we're already suffering from a dumbing down trend. If anything, blame the editors for supporting the movement.

Soccer Mom · Aug 1, 2006

Whew! This just pushed all my buttons. This is my number one pet peeve. Punctuation is not about art! @#*! It is about communicating. The rules of punctuation are designed to help clarify a writer's meaning. The placement of a comma can completely change a sentence's meaning.

FYI- They aren't blazing a new trail at all. A New England writer (Timothy Dexter, 1747-1806) wrote a book without any punctuation. That's right. A Pickle for Knowing did not contain a single period or comma.

A later edition featured a page filled with nothing but punction. The concept was that a reader could take the punctuation and use it as he saw fit. So much for this new trailblazing art. I first heard about this in one of my Pocket Idiot Guide to Grammar books. (I highly recommend this as a handy reference to keep beside the desk.)

I say just write the darn thing and punctuate so I can figure out what the @#$! you mean.

kbax · Aug 1, 2006

I think it's a mistake to write/publish like that. Isn't the whole point to captivate the reader, to involve him/her in the book? If I pick something up and start reading, and I get 10 words into a paragraph before I realize that this is a character speaking, that jolts me right OUT.

To me, it seems incredibly counterproductive.

priceless1 · Aug 1, 2006

kbax said:
I think it's a mistake to write/publish like that. Isn't the whole point to captivate the reader, to involve him/her in the book? If I pick something up and start reading, and I get 10 words into a paragraph before I realize that this is a character speaking, that jolts me right OUT.

To me, it seems incredibly counterproductive.

kbax, dialog is put on a separate line and will sometimes have an en dash or two dashes to signify that it's dialog.
Example:
--I dont care what you think punctuation is so five minutes ago

zarch · Aug 1, 2006

Look folks, I'm a English teacher, so I am annoyed by poor mechanics (born of ignorance) just as much as anyone else. I really don't think McCarthy is trying to be trendy or is arrogant.

What about sentence fragments? I use 'em in my fiction. In fact, they are sometimes important where my style is concerned. And I am far from alone (lots and lots and lots of writers use fragments). And in the hierarchy of writing errors, fragments rank WAY above punctuation errors.

And another "trend" I'm noticing: failure to insert a comma between two independent clauses. LOTS of writers are getting away with this, too.

Sometimes punctuation is intrusive. If I'm submitting a piece to Shakespeare Quarterly, everything is rulebook perfect. To Glimmer Train? Maybe not. Depends on what exactly I'm trying to say. See all these frangments?

Ah, whatever. At any rate, to suggest that Cormac McCarthy and his editor don't realize they are publishing books with incorrect punctuation is silly.

maestrowork · Aug 1, 2006

I think in many cases, it's not really about "art" or being "different." It's more about "hey, look at me. I am so clever and so different and artistic and avant garde and I don't play by the rules." It's more about the writer than the writing. The story comes second.

veinglory · Aug 1, 2006

I don't think sentence fragments are the same thing. They are pretty conventional in fiction. There is also a lot of leeway between the 'lot's of commas' and 'only a few commas' crowd--an so on.

But not marking dialogue? What exactly is the point?

Soccer Mom · Aug 1, 2006

I don't mind fragments and some grammatical errors. Especially if it is First Person POV. You are hearing someone's thoughts. But I hate trying to be arty and different just for the sake of being arty and different. It jars me out of the story and makes it difficult for me to read. I'm used to seeing quotes in quotation marks. Anything else bugs me. If it is hard for a reader to figure out what is going on or if it takes the reader out of the story, then what is the point? I think a lot of it is very self-indulgant. Like Maestro said. "Look at me. I'm an artist."

Codger · Aug 1, 2006

I still think that there's some hubris involved.

zarch said:
Cormac McCarthy is one of my favorites. With regard to the lack of question marks ("Where does he work."): his books are about simple people. Ranchers, cowboys, rugged guys whose speaking may be so abrupt and gruff that their short questions do sound like statements.

Also, he's certainly not the only writer to (for the sake of dialect) drop the -g off of -ing words. That dialectical construct is so constant in ALL of his books, he probably doesn't feel the need to qualify it with an apostrophe anymore (or ever).

As far as the contractions and quotation marks go, who knows? Maybe his style serves as a reflection of his characters--simple, without regard to rules. Or maybe he just plain likes the way it looks on the page.

Personally, I don't put him in the same group with e.e. cummings in terms of look-at-me-everybody-I'm-different sort of rule-breaking.

Cormac McCarthy is an established and excellent author. He certainly doesn't rely on gimmicks.

There are always fans who serve as apologists for their favoite artists. This does not mean that their idols are right.

As I said, I'm enjoying the book, but my enjoyment is somewhat diminished by his erratic punctuation. I don't think I'll read any more of his stuff. There are many authors who think highly enough of language that they faithfully follow the generally accepted rules in order to effectively communicate their ideas.

I'm certain that strict adherence to the "rules" happens when editors cease being enablers of the "I gotta be me" authors, and fulfill their duty as final arbiter of content. If they are intimidated by big name authors, then they serve no function other than that of a rubber stamp.

It's probably awkward for an editor to cross grammatical swords with top selling writers. I guess that literature has its prima donnas. Maybe publishers should just save the money and not assign anyone to edit authors who have sold a million (or some large number of) books. Send 'em straight to press.

priceless1 · Aug 1, 2006

maestrowork said:
I think in many cases, it's not really about "art" or being "different." It's more about "hey, look at me. I am so clever and so different and artistic and avant garde and I don't play by the rules." It's more about the writer than the writing. The story comes second.

That may or may not be true, Ray. Ultimately it's the decision and general philosophy of the editing team as to what types of editing rules they'll abide by. This includes sentence structure, such as the use of fragments, and punctuation. I consented to read one manuscript that had no punctuation, and it nearly blinded me. Never again.

Summonere · Aug 1, 2006

eh

keend oof leeik doz whu spil “dialogue” “dialog”
is |
notter |
sumfeeng |
misting |
nuh? |
suppidat |
fo shizzle |
|
v
(Peevis, my pet)

(I shIll right a hole nAvel in this proze
dowwit curls hair from yor feet
to the boughtums uff yor toes
)

.

-------------------------------------
after application of clarity bifocals
-------------------------------------

I merely iterate what others have already said. Art. Yes. An attempt to suggest upon the page what cannot be accurately conveyed there.

The balancing act pits what is expected against what you can get away with, and what makes sense.

Current state of punctuation.

Codger

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Elizabeth Slick

Jamesaritchie

Mallika

johnnysannie

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Ordinary_Guy

Industrial Strength

Ordinary_Guy

Industrial Strength

Anonymisty

zarch

GOML.

rwam

HapiSofi

Hagiographically Advantaged

priceless1

Soccer Mom

Crypto-fascist

kbax

Refrigerate After Opening

priceless1

zarch

GOML.

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Soccer Mom

Crypto-fascist

Codger

priceless1

Summonere