Is it really that bad?

[TheTableist]

I'm sure I'm not the first person to post what I am about to post, although perhaps I'll be the most newbish about it. I'm also sure I'm not the first person to think what I am currently thinking, although perhaps I'm overstating it. I do tend toward the dramatic.

Nevertheless, I have to ask if what I think I have learned about professional writing is accurate. Not because I believe I deserve or am owed success, not even because I believe I am especially talented. Never having had an objective review of my writing, I have no idea if I am even remotely publishable.

Every night, I sit down at my computer and convince myself that I am working on a novel. I've been working on various projects all my life I suppose, but this one in particular for nearly 8 years. I write thousands of words and believe that they are chapters. I write dozens of chapters and believe they are part of a book. Until the last few weeks, my illusion was flawless. "I'm a writer" I would tell myself, and I'd take another sip of coffee and consider it a sufficient excuse for staying up late enough that my work performance suffered.

I've never submitted my work anywhere. No short stories, no poetry, no articles. I've had very little education, especially with regard to writing, grammar, language, and literature, as is no doubt already abundantly evident to anyone still reading. I write like what I am: an amateur.

Still, I thought it was possible that someday I could get somewhere, maybe get something published. Maybe with enough revision, maybe with enough scrutiny, I'd put out something someone would want to read. That belief was the cornerstone of my illusion.

I've spent the last few weeks really researching what it takes to be a professional writer. I've never done so before. I know, I'm probably the kind of writer that people here dread to see. I'm a totally uniformed rank amateur, coming to you with my hand out, begging for a scrap of sage advice to set me on the right path. Just one more way in which I'm ordinary.

To be blunt, as I hope you will be, my question is simple: Should I quit?

I know I can learn the grammar, the punctuation, the technical aspects. I write code for a living and have learned nearly a dozen programming languages without any formal instruction. Given the time and information, I'm sure I could master proper, functional writing. I know I'm creative, the other half of my job is as a designer and artist. I even think I have some decent story ideas. The only part that I don't have any real insight into is whether or not I'm any good. I don't know if my stories are interesting or engaging, if people like them or hate. I just don't know.

My problem is that I've come to believe that I might never find out if I'm any good. It seems to me that someone can go their entire life trying to be a professional writer without ever finding out if they are wasting their time.

Here is a list of the things that I think I have learned. If this list is inaccurate, please let me know.

1) Getting published is like winning the lottery. The odds against having a novel published are so monumental as to be virtually insurmountable. People still get published, sure, but people win the lottery too; doesn't mean I'm going to spend my savings buying lottery tickets. Conclusion: give up now.

2) Even if lightning strikes and you manage to get published, you will remain dirt poor. If you want your children to have a little more than macaroni figurines to open on Christmas morning, you'd better find a different career. Conclusion: give up now.

3) At least half of the so-called resources available to writers online and in print are actually just scams that feed on 'wanna-be syndrome'. You've got to choose between a lifetime of failure and being completely ripped-off. Conclusion: give up now.

4) Everything has been done. No matter how original you think your story is, the first Amazon.com reviewer would cry 'Hack!' and let slip the dogs of criticism. Moreover, he'd likely be correct. Someone, somewhere, already wrote and published your plot. Conclusion: give up now.

5) Even if, by some miracle, you have a good, original and well-written manuscript, no one will care. As discussed above, the odds of someone actually reading it are nearly infinitesimal. What's more, if they do read it, they will care first and foremost about whether or not there is a market for it. Being an uniformed nobody, you have virtually no chance of 'striking while the iron is hot'. Have a mathematician figure out what the odds are against you hitting the publisher lottery with a book that they actually read, actually like, AND is marketable. Conclusion: get out while you still can.

Am I wrong? I'm sorry if I come off like some kind of whiny and ignorant jerk, but the last two weeks have been, I think anyway, an eye-opener. Where once there was an idealistic if naive amateur who believed that it was possible to be a writer, there is now a crushed programmer, admittedly deep in a mid-life crisis, who has stumbled across a bleak and depressing vision of professional writing. Is there hope out there? Is that hope worth pursuing for a husband and father with no college degree?

I guess I want to know if the lottery is a more productive use of my time. I know it may seem I've thrown artistic desires and self-expression out the window but I haven't. I can write for myself and my friends and family if my greatest hope is merely to express my thoughts. There is a real business of writing out there, and I want to know if getting into that business is as horrible and unlikely as I've been led to believe. Is it really that bad?

[MissKathyClarke]

My name is Katie. I am thirteen years old, and want to be a writer. Listen here, what you need to do is change your attitude. You need to be optimistic and be passionate. There are tons of publishers; I think you have a better chance of getting published than winning the lottery. If you don't think you can do it, you won't. You have to believe in yourself. Being so young, my chances of getting published by a real publisher (I don't consider Published on Demand books published) are very slim, and that makes me want to try even more than I would if my chances were better. If you want to know how good your stories are, post them here. Join a critique group or find a critique partner. One thing I already know is, you should always keep on writing and never give up. You should also have another job because usually you can't live on your writing. Don't let anything stop you. That's my advice.

Katie~

[qatz]

You know what? That's good advice from Katie. K. is a sweet young girl to whom all is possible, of course, but she nailed it anyway.

Short answer to your question: yes and no.

Two things I noticed . . . (1) you do not write badly on your post. (2) you have never tried to be published. also i note that you write code, and are going through a midlife mess. If I were you I would do these things: (1) get a life. pay attention to your wife and family, or if it's too late for that, move on, but pay attention to the kids and your friends anyway. and that means off the screen. (2) save your money. you will in all likelihood hit a big wall soon. when i did that i lost a cool, count 'em, $1,000,000. (3) reconsider your practical career options; if you like driving a truck and are not bad at it, drive a truck. no shame. (4) take some courses. at your point, getting published is in fact probably harder than winning the lottery, especially with your morose attitude. it is a game of skill, not of luck. develop your skill. (5) take care of yourself; be healthy; notice that the world is good. take deep breaths. check out absolutewrite's threads on being healthy, even if they don't seem to fit. (6) come back to your writing later; a month or a year from now; work at it, one thing at a time. Do not rely on your computer spell check. know the language. (7) You have three indispensable gifts . . . a decent facility in words, a passion for using them, and a life with mixed and no doubt textured values and experiences. writing is not, i repeat not, your quick new life, presto, waiting for you. get your new life in order, work at it, and the writing will follow. Q.

[RottenLuckWillie]

I'm there with Katie.
Do you write because you want to write or to sell books? For me, getting published is a dream which someday might come true. Until then, I write stuff. It makes me happy to do so. Is any of it any good? I'm not the one to judge, but I let some folks I trust not to blow smoke at me read my stuff and they all like it. You know what? Just knowing that keeps me going. I'm on the fourth novel now and still find it fun just to create the characters and let them tell me a story.
All of what you listed in your post as what you have learned is about what I've learned in my efforts. It is, to say the very least, daunting and depressing. If, that is, getting published is the only way you measure success. I submit to you that there are other forms of making yourself content with your writing.
With respect,
rlw

[TheTableist]

I think my rambling made my point less coherent. All of you would have had good advice for someone experiencing self-doubt. As I stated above, I've never even tried to get published, nor do I have any indication of the value or quality of my own work.

It is not, in short, my own experiences that I am drawing on.

I'd like to point out that I take offense to the implication that I am somehow neglectful of my family. I happen to be an excellent father and devoted husband.

I am merely combining what I have heard and seen over the last few weeks on web sites just like this one and asking a point blank question.

Is the bleak picture drearily spray painted across the internet an accurate depiction? Is it really that hard to break in. I lean toward the verbose and in doing so, became unclear.

I have zero experience to draw on here. I'm listening to accounts by others and am asking people who've been there if it's really as bad as all that. If you haven't seen the depressing nightmare depicted by writers on blogs, message boards, writer's websites, and on and on, well you've not looked at all, or you've had a very different google journey than I have.

Don't mistake my question about how tough the industry is for some type of failure as a human being.

[TheTableist]

Willie, with equal respect, my question is not about personal success. I've got plenty of personal success. As I clearly pointed out, if I am merely seeking fulfillment I can find it without professional writing. What I am asking is how difficult professional writing is to break into. If it is literally as terrible as dozens of web sites would have me believe then I'll know not to try. I probably will try, actually, but want to know what I'm getting in to.

[Tish Davidson]

I've seem the writing world from both sides - writer and editor. You would be amazed at the incredibly awful stuff that crosses editors's desks. I mean not just bad, but really, really, really bad, both in style and content. From your post, I would say that you have a good enough command of the language to writer better than roughly 85% of the people who submit. Whether you have anything worth saying, who knows, since you have never shared your writing.

One reason people who write adequately don't get published is that they don't do the market research necessary to target the correct publishers. Or they ignore things like preferred length and send publishers a 400,000 word first book.

My advice is this:

1. Test the waters with some short pieces. Although I am sure that there are people whose first published work is a novel, I can't think of any. Take Annie Proulx for example. She allegedly burst on the literary scene with her first novel and won the Pulitizer prize with her third book (The Shipping News). This "burst" came after 20 years of freelance non-fiction writing.

2. Become informed.Learn how traditional publishing works. Search for the best target markets for your content and style. You are right that many online "opportunities" for writer aren't opportunities to do anything except waste time and money.

3. Read books and magazines that you would like to have written. Analyze why these pieces work. Pay attention to pacing. A lot of stuff gets rejected because it moves too slowly to draw the reader in or because the reader doesn't care about the characters. Boring story is the most common reason mechanically adequate writing is rejected.

4. Take a class or join a critique group or both.or go to a writer's conference where you can submit work for critique. Go into it as a learning experience and don't be offended if people find flaws in your work. If they do, so will agents and editors. Better to know the problems and fix them than send off your baby and with flaws. Rule of thumb: If one person tells you that they don't like a particular part of the book, a character, or that something confuses them, does not follow logically, or is slow, ignore them. If several people tell you about the same issue, there is a problem with that spot and you need to revise.

5. Embrace revision. Revision is restructuring, axing some of your favorite lines, expanding or contracting the story, moving it along faster. It is not the same as polishing by finding a word here or there to change.

6. Share your work. It is the only way to know how others will react to it. I really can't see how you can make any kind of decision about whether your should keep on writing without critical feedback of your work.

7. If you want to write and it gives you pleasure, write. If you want to be rich and famous, buy lottery tickets.

There is no reason why a competent writer cannot get published, but it takes time and it helps to build up a portfolio of smaller pieces. You learn things along the way, and you build up your credibility. Not having a college degree is irrelevant.

And on a final note of hope, newbies do get published. The first thing I ever submitted was published and I was paid $125. And no, although I have a college degree, it is in biology, and I only ever took the two semesters of required freshman English in college.

[RottenLuckWillie]

I think Tish D. has summed it up as well as I understand the marketplace. I might add what I've been told almost universally in rejection letters: the market is subjective. What is good enough to publish in one house may not be in the next. This complicates your question of 'how bleak is it?'

I was also told this by an agent: "Agents submit to publishers about 1% of work for which they have received queries. Publishers print only about 1% percent of that which is submitted to them by agents. You do the math. I do not know how true this is, but one thing for sure is that it comments on the volume and the quality within the volume of material being produced out there.

I have found the effort to get published daunting. I persevere because I believe in myself. Sorry to get philosophical in response to your question, but after awhile, you either get that way or get out. It is a lot of work and there is the impression that the light at the end of the tunnel might be an oncoming train. I wish you good luck and good words.
rlw

[aka eraser]

Luck helps, I'm sure, but can't be relied upon.

There is some excellent advice given above. I'd only add that I believe the chances of publishing success are directly proportional to the amount of talent you have; the amount of hard work you're willing to put in; and your ability to persevere when faced with doubt and rejection.

[dpaterso]

Wow, 8 years on the same novel, writing every night -- you are my long-lost twin brother. You won't remember me but I was kidnapped from the maternity ward by an evil wizard, long story, I won't go into details now. We have the same heart-shaped birthmark on the left hip, see? Anyway--

There are writing groups all over the internet, I mean all over. Find one, sign up, read fiction by other writers, let them read yours. Laugh at how bad theirs is and revel in the fact yours is bloody marvellous by comparison. Living some writerly introverted hermit existence isn't doing you any good at all. Throw the drapes wide, open the attic window and spread your wings. Don't look down, just flap your arms real hard.

-Derek (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Dpaterson57)

[wwwatcher]

Words they are wonderful things. They trip off our tongues and pop off the ends of our fingers onto the keyboard. When we are in the right groove they flow out of us leaping and bounding, weaving and sweeping, calling up emotions and images. OH, what a wonderful thing! And this particular posting has already generated a lot of them. I only have one further word for you......
SUBMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:o

[Tish Davidson]

And I have another word for you EDIT! Words that flow out of us leaping and bounding, weaving and sweeping, calling up emotions and imagesare shallow, trite, redundant, and urgently in need of a good literary scrubbing before they are ready to send out into the world. Until you get past the idea that every first draft that you write is inspired prose, you aren't going to get published. Being in the grove is great as a start, but it takes a lot of sweat to produce a polished piece.

[TheTableist]

"Maybe with enough revision, maybe with enough scrutiny"
he said.

I know about the revise revise revise mandate.
I'm aware of the "stick to it" platitudes.
I've never claimed my writing was inspired. In fact I think the word I used was amateur.

What I was discussing was the many statements by discouraged writers, book doctors, and vanity publishing web sites that paint a picture of a cruel and disorganized industry.

I was referring to the repeated stories about getting published being so monumentally difficult as to be impossible without random good luck.

I did not even say that this IS the way it is. I was asking IF this is the way it is.

[mammamaia]

I was referring to the repeated stories about getting published being so monumentally difficult as to be impossible without random good luck.

I did not even say that this IS the way it is. I was asking IF this is the way it is.

YES!... talent, skill, hard work, perseverance, salesmanship, all have to be there to 'make it'... but in the end, it really comes down to that damnably random thingamajig, 'LUCK'... as in getting your work and/or yourself in the right time at the right place...

not a happy thought, not terribly fair, but a fact of life for a writer of just about anything... i'm a good mother, so hafta tellya the truth, even if it hurts...

love and extra hugs, maia

[Tish Davidson]

Unlike mama, I feel luck plays only a very small role, and that most people who are "lucky" in publishing are that way because they have worked hard to understand the market, learn their craft, practice what they learned, and always done their best.

The truth is that not everyone can be a traditionally published author, just as everyone cannot be a professional baseball player, a corporate CEO, a doctor, lawyer or fighter pilot. We all have limitations and yes, sometimes we are disappointed because what we want to do does not match up to our capabilities and the opportunities that life gives us. Writing, fortunately, is something we can do either as a professional or as a hobbiest.

I think the question you should be asking is whether writing gives you enough pleasure to keep on writing even if you never get published. If it does, then write. Write to the best of your ability. Learn as much as you can about the craft, but enjoy the process as well as the product. If the act of writing gives you no pleasure, and your pleasure comes entirely from complating how wonderful it will be to be a published author, then I think you will be disappointed. (hint: publication does not make the earth move. You're still the same old slob at the keyboard the next day). Another questions to ask yourself is what would you be doing with your time if you were not writing. Would it give you more or less satisfaction than wrestling with words?

As for publishing being disorganized, in my experience, disorganization is less of a problem than the fact that it moves with glacial slowness. Many writers are attuned to almost-instant electronic communications and want instant gratification from sending off a piece, while publishers are attuned to moving at carrier pigeon speed. For example, the book I am writing now is due in manuscript form in May 2003 and will not be published until September 2005. With the very long lead times, writers sometimes get caught in editor changes, publication buy-outs and other business events that disrupt the publication cycle. It is frustrating, but not necessarily disorganized or driven by random, unexplainable events, although it may look this way from outside the loop.

[TheTableist]

I have this friend; he's a plumber. The other day, he told me that the world of professional plumbing is fraught with peril. He told me horror stories about mobsters controlling the game, years of grueling education gone to waste, and struggling to make ends meet. The picture was, to be generous, bleak.

A day or so later the pipe in my kitchen burst and I had to get a plumber out there. Strange coincidence I know, but such is life. I would never mix work and friendship so I called a service. They sent out a guy I'd never met to fix the pipe. I was curious, so I asked him if that was what the world of professional plumbing was really like. You know what he told me?

"TheTableist," he said, "if that is your real name... let me tell you something. Your outlook stinks."

I was surprised at this, but waited to hear the rest.

"You should be asking yourself why you are so messed up," he said. "You think you're a super-plumber genius but, let me tell you something, you aren't. You need to pay attention to your family and quit trying to get rich. Fact is, you'd make a terrible plumber, because you're only in it for the glory."

I never knew how messed up I was until he let me in on it, but thank goodness this perfect stranger was there to judge my life. I've given up asking plumbing questions for good now. I still can't believe I had the audacity to wonder if plumbing was so difficult to break into. If I really cared about plumbing, I would block such curiousity out of my mind. I'd plumb and plumb and never look ahead. After all, it's not about laurels. I didn't know I was only interested in laurels, but the kind stranger opened my eyes. It's about the craft. I didn't know I didn't care about that either, but apparently, I did not.

[RottenLuckWillie]

The knowledge of the ages in the form of a pipe twister. Inspiration comes from wher we look least.
rlw

[aka eraser]

I met a guy who wondered if tablemaking might be a worthwhile endeavour. He did a bit of research and was dismayed at what he found.

Apparently, achieving success by tablemaking was difficult. Everybody and his brother-in-law was making tables and only the luckiest of them ever sold one. Whether or not the tables could support dishes and elbows didn't seem to matter. Careful crafting to ensure the legs were flush with the floor didn't matter. Satiny-smooth or splintered top? No matter. Only lucky tablemakers seemed to sell their product.

He was 90% convinced that tablemaking was not for him but decided to explore one more avenue. He went to a tablemakers' message board and crafting a LONG post about his tablemaking angst. Several tablemakers of various levels of experience and success took the time to respond to his post. They outlined what worked, or didn't, for them. Most concluded that talent, time, effort and practice at tablemaking were more important than luck in achieving success.

Alas, one respondent strayed slightly from the topic at hand and speculated briefly about the would-be tablemaker's personal situation.

Clearly miffed, the erstwhile tablemaker ignored the majority of helpful suggestions and focused his ire on the errant poster. By doing so, he seemed to validate his original hypothesis: there was no real point in making tables after all.

Apparently, he is now considering plumbing.

[Tish Davidson]

"Clearly miffed, the erstwhile tablemaker ignored the majority of helpful suggestions and focused his ire on the errant poster. By doing so, he seemed to validate his original hypothesis"

eraser, that's chronic newbie attitude. He doesn't want to hear about the slow slog to publication. He want confirmation of what he already "knows" - that his work is super-genius and the mean world of publishing is blind not to recoginze it immediately upon first submission or even before submission.
This guy hasn't even shared his work with a critque group and he's already moaning about the mean, unfair world of publishing.

Hey Tabelist - collect a few rejection letters before you damn an entire industry with your preconceptions. What you are saying essentially is that you aren't willing to work on your writing unless someone can promise you that it is going to get published. That ain't gonna happen. There are no short cuts.

[TheTableist]

Tish, that's chronic pompous attitude. I could not have been been more clear about my own work or more clearly asking for confirmation about what other people have said about the industry. Yet you come in this thread with preconceived notions about newbies, which you just confirmed in the most blatant manner possible. I do want to know how hard it is. Asking that question is not an invitation for you to speculate about my own view of my own work, something which you could not possibly have any idea about whatsoever.

If you've never seen or read what I have seen or read then you are in a little bubble all your own.

Let me clue you in on something, you are not the end-all be-all of information. Believe it or not, there are some people not interested in your self-serving pontification about the value of perserverance or the beauty of art for art's sake.

I did not say I'm not willing to work on anything. I asked IF, and let me repeat that for you tish, IF what I had heard was accurate.

So let me invite you to take your precious advice elsewhere. I'm sure you see yourself as some angel of wisdom descended from the heavens in a selfless mission to give of yourself to the uneducated masses but in the future, I'll thank you to keep your overblown and trite platitudes to yourself. If you can't answer a simple question then don't post at all. Others may be impressed with your couching of meaningless rah-rahs in flowery language to make it seem significant but I assure you I am not. You may as well have added "stay in school" and "don't do drugs" to your self-indulgent "advice".

You assume quite a bit for knowing nothing at all, and if there were any doubt about what your true motive was in answering this thread it was cleared up completely in your most recent reply. You are a pompous egomaniac.

My original hypothesis was not a hypothesis at all by the way. It was a reiteration from other people on the web with at LEAST as much credibility as the anonymous people on this board. I requested a second opinion and that is ALL that I did. In response I get a judgemental diatribe from a know-it-all.

Wonderful impression you guys make.

[RottenLuckWillie]

Quote The The Tableguy:

"Am I wrong? I'm sorry if I come off like some kind of whiny and ignorant jerk, but the last two weeks have been, I think anyway, an eye-opener. Where once there was an idealistic if naive amateur who believed that it was possible to be a writer, there is now a crushed programmer, admittedly deep in a mid-life crisis, who has stumbled across a bleak and depressing vision of professional writing. Is there hope out there? Is that hope worth pursuing for a husband and father with no college degree?

I guess I want to know if the lottery is a more productive use of my time. I know it may seem I've thrown artistic desires and self-expression out the window but I haven't. I can write for myself and my friends and family if my greatest hope is merely to express my thoughts. There is a real business of writing out there, and I want to know if getting into that business is as horrible and unlikely as I've been led to believe. Is it really that bad?"

Short answer: yes, it is, give it up. I tell myself that twice a day: when I boot up the laptop and then when I shut it down. In between those times, none of it matters.
;) rlw

[TheTableist]

Here's a few more quotes from my posts. Apparently these don't count.

"Not because I believe I deserve or am owed success, not even because I believe I am especially talented."

"I've had very little education, especially with regard to writing, grammar, language, and literature, as is no doubt already abundantly evident to anyone still reading. I write like what I am: an amateur."

"Maybe with enough revision, maybe with enough scrutiny"

"It seems to me that someone can go their entire life trying to be a professional writer without ever finding out if they are wasting their time."

"I've never claimed my writing was inspired."

I guess somehow that translates into me believing my work is super-genius.

[mogie]

What if all the answers you got were "Yes, it is as bad as everyone says it is." What would you do?



And what would you do if everyone responded "No, it is not as bad as you heard"?



If you like to write, go ahead and continue. If you don’t want to write any more, stop. You want to see if you’re any good, share. If you’re not interested in what others think of your work, don’t share. Some people are very content writing just for themselves. Some aren’t. Where do you fit in? No need to share your findings. This is just something for you to gnaw on.

[Tish Davidson]

Hey, call me pompous, but don't call me anonymous.

One thing to remember if you want to become a professional writer - as in someone who supports himself by writing - you are essentially a small business. And a high percentage of all small businesses fail.

[TheTableist]

"What if all the answers you got were "Yes, it is as bad as everyone says it is." What would you do?"

"And what would you do if everyone responded "No, it is not as bad as you heard"?"

I'd probably take that information and think about it. Those would be answers to the question that I actually asked instead of ad hominem attacks describing my life and opinions from a perfect ANONYMOUS stranger.

[RottenLuckWillie]

Tableguy, try channeling some of this anger you're venting into your writing. I like you when you're mad.;)
rlw

[Tish Davidson]

In your initial post, you asked whether the world of professional writing was as hard and horrible to break into as you had heard and whether you should quit writing, even though you had never submitted a piece and had no idea whether your work was publishable. No one can answer this question except you, but people took the time to tell you what their experiences with writing and publishing were in the hope that it would help your self-evaluation. You clearly did not like some of the answers and took offense.

I can't tell you whether or not you should write, but I can now tell you that based on your angry response to some of these posts, you probably should not attempt a career as a professional writer. Professional writing is not only about sitting in a room at a keyboard putting words on paper. Writing for money - at least enough money to support yourself and your family- involves a lot of rejection and compromise. It involves finding clients, marketing yourself, negotiating contracts, pushing through the the end of a porject when you are sick and tired of it, and sometimes writing about things that you find uninspiring. These are offset by moments or pure pleasure when you get the words exactly right and think that you are incredibly lucky that someone will pay you to do something that you enjoy so much.

Based on your angry responses to posts that were intended to be helpful, I think you are tempermentally unsuited for the rejection and emotional indifference that go with the world of professional writing. Even very successful writers get rejected. If you are going to take every rejection as a personal affront, if you are going to be insulted by every editor who doesn't agree with your assessments, if you are going to be incensed by a client that does not give you the answers you want to hear, then save yourself a lot of angst and high blood pressure and don't aim toward making your living as a writer.

I don't know if you have adequate writing skills--your posts certainly are gramatically correct and literate--but you clearly don't have the temperment to be in the business of writing. I've been a freelance professional writer since 1989 - first as a freelance journalist, currently as a medical writer and book author. There are a lot of components that go into the business of writing for pay, and, although knowledge of craft and talent are necessary, they aren't enough to float your financial boat as a writer. This is why many people honorably prefer to remain inspired amateur writers.

[mogie]

Sounds to me like folks on this board know what they are talking about or at the very least, are doing their best to be helpful. You want answers in a certain format, and it’s not going to happen. I would suggest viewing your board-mates as excellent resources even if you don’t like everything they have to say. And it's worth re-reading the sage advice of MissKathyClarke.



Now, PRETEND, just PRETEND people had responded within the narrow parameters you requested with "industry good" or "industry evil". If we lived in the black and white world you seem to seek, those are the two most likely options. Based on personal experiences, some people will say one, others will offer the other. Just use your imagination will ya? Based on what I have seen of your outlook and temperament on this board, I would say in a few years time, probably sooner (say after only months of trying), you will come up with the “industry bad” answer.


It may also be time to develop a thicker skin. Those rejection letters can be bruising.

[RottenLuckWillie]

:money :star :( :clover :hat :ack
Tish,
While I know you weren't speaking to me, I read your post and it certainly sounded as if you were. Thanks, from me, for the reality check. You made me think.
rlw

[aka eraser]

If you're smart you'll take some time, remove that chip from your shoulder, and digest these posts.

You've received valuable advice, much of it from those who have been there/done that. Sift it, take what appears to be of value and ignore the rest if you wish. But don't continue to pick at nits and claim *they* are the issue.

Writing is easy for many of us. Publishing is hard for most of us. But a trip to any magazine rack or book store will show that it's certainly not impossible.

[qatz]

hey mogie, how are you? good to seeya. Q

[mogie]

Hey yourself, Q. Alls well here. Just sitting around dreaming about sunshine and not writing. :-)

[TheTableist]

Valuable advice, schmaluable advice.

Let me explain something. You have advice to give about writing; fine, wonderful. Bully for you. This does not make you a sage on all the things the world has to offer. I don't know why people on message boards think they have such deep life insights that must be shared.

You want to tell me how hard it is to break into professional writing? Great! But don't tell me how to live my life. Your advice is not welcome. Why you can't understand that is beyond me. I've had my own life experiences. I'm not some 13 year old asking you how to succeed in life. I'm a successful person in my own right, a former Marine, a father, a husband. I made it to where I am now, the top position in my field, with no formal education. I'm self-taught and fought my way up from maintenance jobs to head of our communications department in 6 years. I've been out in the dirt and bush with my buddies and my rifle. I've lost friends and family. What I neither need nor appreciate is some perfect stranger making completely unfounded assumptions about my personal habits, my life, or my dedication to my family.

You expect me to suck up and take your insults with a thank you because you are published writers. Think again. Being an experienced writer does not make you a better person, merely one that is more experienced in this particular field.

I come here with a simple request and, completely without foundation, I am accused of being some ego-driven newbie who thinks his writing is gold, who doesn't spend time with his family, and who inexplicably needs to find out that hard work is important from a high school student. If you think I'm 'challenged' because I take offense to this type of assumption you are sadly mistaken.

I'm new to writing, but not to life, and I don't ever take kindly to assumptive nonsense from people who think they know all the answers.

So once again, you can take your life advice and shove it. Not interested. Asking a simple question about a BUSINESS matter is not an invitation to judgment. I'm not sure who exactly you think you are, but I recommend you take some time to evaluate yourself. From my point of view, it's not a good picture.

And just to clarify something, you are equally unable to make any determination whatsoever about how I handle rejection. I promise you I've been rejected more times for more important things than half of you at least.

Tish Davidson did not simply fail to answer my question, did not simply fail to answer it the way I wanted. What Tish Davidson did was profile me PRIOR to knowing anything about how I react to my own writing. Tish profiled me PRIOR to knowing what level of rejection I was willing to take or what level of learning I wanted to undergo before submitting. Logically one could have assumed that I hoped to learn and grow a great deal before submitting anything, considering that I have not done so even once to date. As Tish was unaware, I've been actively seeking a mentor and a local writing group from which to learn. As Tish was unaware, I feel my writing is inadequate for publication. I find it to be stilted and without depth. But Tish didn't know that. Instead, Tish assumes that I am some disturbed and deranged slush-pile poster child who believes his words to be divinely inspired and needs to be knocked down a peg.

That's right, I take offense. I take offense to assumptions, and particularly such wildly inaccurate ones. Most of all, though, I take offense to personality assessments from someone who could not possibly know the first thing about me. If you imagine I'll take personality assessments from publishers or editors, you are mistaken. I don't bow or scrape to anyone outside of Heaven. I've quit jobs that could have been critical to my career for being treated like a third-class citizen by the boss, especially if that boss was a life-long civilian. I'm certainly not going to start lying down now.

I didn't make it to the top of my field by bowing my head and saying thank you when someone steps on my toes. Criticize my work product, criticize my ability, criticize my social skills. But don't pretend to know what's going on inside my head, and don't question my dedication to my family.

This is a message board people. It's not group therapy. You cross the lines of both good taste and social decorum regularly, much like 90% of the other message boards online. I think it's offensive and I believe it's socially damaging for young people, who never learn the lines not to cross.

So maybe I'm angry. Maybe I overreacted, though I don't think so. But I can promise you, every time someone crosses the line I'll speak my mind about it. If you don't like it, there's nothing I can do about that. It's your choice. Just like it's MY choice to disregard advice from people who, in their hubris, think they have the inside track on every person who adds a post to this board.

[dpaterso]

Quite exciting this, I'm jumping up and down at my keyboard just reading these messages, ooh, ow, ah.

Tableist, I'm curious about your writing and whether there's any reason for all this fuss. Do me a favor and send me your first 5k words, rtf or text. Click on my username or on the URL below to see my email address. Privacy is assured.

-Derek
hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57 (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[wwwatcher]

Once upon a time there was a hungry man in a strange country. He came upon a table with a banquet of the finest looking food laid out upon it. He had just moved there and he wasn’t certain of his surroundings, so he decided to watch first and see what other people did. Boy, that food smelt good!
Pretty soon a flamboyant, richly-clad woman came by. She was nursing a feather boa around her neck and it flowed out behind her as she went.
“Excuse me, madam,” he said. “Can you tell me why this banquet of food is spread out here? Is there maybe something wrong with it?”
“Oh no,” she said. “They put that out everyday. I’ve never eaten it myself, but they say it’s there for those who need it.”
“Do you mean anyone can just help themselves?”
“That’s my understanding,” she replied and off she went about her business.
Well, he wasn’t going to take the word of someone who had never sat down to eat, and he kept thinking to himself, - Maybe she really didn’t know what it was all about, if she hadn’t done it. His stomach growled as he decided to wait for more advice.
Not too long after, a man came by with a lively step, dressed in a loud suit with the most ridiculous tie that he had ever seen. This fellow with his hair slicked back, pulled on his moustache and smiled with a toothy grin as he walked up to the man. The man thought, -This is a salesman if I’ve ever seen one!
After they’d said their hellos, the man asked the salesman, “Sir can you tell me why this table is laid out here?”
“Certainly, it’s the best bargain in town, anyone can eat from it, it’s free!” He became enthusiastic, took the man by the arm, and urged him toward the table, “Go ahead, sit down and eat!”
At this the man’s caution overtook him again, and he began to make excuses. “No, wait. Maybe I’ll just wait until someone comes along to join me.” The salesman shrugged and proceeded down the street.
So the man decided he would sit down and wait. He wasn’t going to be the first one to eat from the table. After all he was new in this town. He didn’t want anyone to think he was a thief. His stomach growwwled again.
Then out of the corner of his eye he noticed someone else coming into view. It was a young woman about 13 years old. She walked slowly along and he couldn’t help but notice she was quite upright and graceful, not at all awkward as some girls her age were.
“Excuse me Miss, but I’m new in this town and I wondered if you could tell me why this table is laid out?” Growwwwwwwwwl went his stomach, embarrassing him.
“Yes, they lay that out everyday for people to eat from.” She looked down and smiled and proceeded on her way. Well, could he really trust someone so young to give him the right answer even if she did look upright? And he sat down again to wait.
It wasn’t long before he heard shuffling down the street and into view came a man in very dirty clothing who didn’t look like he’d washed for a month. The man’s eyes narrowed. Here, surely was someone who needed to eat, but did he really want to share a table with him? As the bum drew closer the smell of the man mixed with the wonderful smell of the food.
“Excuse me, sir, but can you tell me why this table is laid out here?”
“Yah, that’s for anyone to eat,” slurred the bum.
“Have you eaten here before.”
“Oh, yah,” breathed the bum. He turned to continue down the street, and the man spoke quickly to detain him, his hunger had convinced him that if he sat upwind any table companion would do.
“Wait, aren’t you going to eat tonight?”
“Maybe later, after I’ve had my appetizer at the bar,” grinned the bum. The man’s heart sank a little as the bum shuffled on up the street.
This isn’t working at all he thought. His chin sank onto his chest, and he decided he would wait for one more person. Thank goodness he didn’t have long to wait. The energy of this one proceeded its owner down the street. What followed was a portly gentleman with a twinkle in his eye.
“Hello, neighbor,” he said.
“Hello, sir, can you tell me why this table is laid out”
“I certainly can,” said the gentleman. “I’m the mayor of this fair city and we lay out this table everyday that all good people who are sincere may go and eat their fill.” His voice rang with conviction. He looked the man straight in the eye, smiled, and proceeded down the street.
The day was drawing on, and as the gentleman was leaving the street began to get busy. People were coming home from their labors into the city, and the shopkeepers were closing and locking their shops. The man’s eyes grew bright. Surely now, some of these would come to the table. He decided to walk down the street a bit and wait, not wanting to appear too eager. From his vantage point he waited, still in view of the table. Some of the people he had seen earlier came back through. He didn’t meet their eyes. He kicked the dirty like he was waiting for someone. Then the crowd began to thin out, and his heart sank, for no one had yet, come to the table. His stomach growled again.
The sun went down and he felt the dew come out. The last person rounded a corner out of sight, and he knew what he had to do. He turned towards the table, and as he walked, the North Star came out. It gleamed in the evening coolness, and as he watched, his eyes settled on what looked like a flock of birds flying toward him.
As they came closer they changed from a gray to a luminous white, and he saw they were not birds – they were words. They swooped in one at a time over the table, and as they came he read them one by one – “Harry Potter,” “The Lord of the Rings,” “Stephen King,” “Treasure Island,” “Pride and Prejudice,” “Virginia Wolfe,” “The Wizard of Oz,” “To Kill a Mockingbird.” They hovered over the table, suddenly broke up into sparks, and shot down like fireworks.
And, then he saw it, then he realized it! The banquet had disappeared. He was too late.

:\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\ :\

[qatz]

I agree with everyone but you, Table. The last story is very good but it only deals with lost opportunities. You actively reject them when they're offered, and get angry when people tell you about the reality which you so obviously lack.

To pick just two examples, Tish just gave you consistently superb, absolutely wonderful professional advice. Katie (WHO IS 13 YEARS OLD) previously gave you absolutely wonderful personal and practical advice, hitting the nail right on the head, the which none of us has improved on. The others have given you really good, solid, terrific advice. It turned out to be quite eloquent. I did not see, and I assume, that you did not directly attack Katie. You will have me to answer for if you did, Chipper.

My advice was, first, focus on your life. Something was obviously out of whack. You were deeply offended by that nod to reality. Too bad. You have proved what I said in huge measure, Table. You just argued strenuously with every single well-spoken, honest, good-hearted person trying to get you to open your darn eyes and see the feast; every drunk, dilletante, devious-minded dragoon, everyone, said the same darn thing as the open-eyed angel who started things off. But that wasn't good enough for you. You wanted an answer to your question, not being willing to share even one word of your eight years of creativity. Well, excuuuuse us.

Here is the simple, low-context answer to your question. You are not cut out for this. Give it up. Keep your day job. Your book will never go anywhere. It's merely an obsession. Get counseling. Try to make sense out of why you cannot take yes, no, maybe, or anything else for an answer. Get the kids through college. Then come back, if you choose to do that. Maybe you will have figured out by then what you want to do when you grow up.

It occurs to me that you also want an answer to your other, impossible question--these unnamed people say it's a jungle out there; is it really as bad as they say? Well, first of all, who are these people and how do we know they say what you say? You're asking a clearly illegitimate question, which is why you're not getting an answer. Why not go ask those people if what they say is true? If you don't trust them enough to give you a straight answer, why are you wondering if they told you the truth in the first place? Secondly, you mention vanity presses so let's assume for a minute you're getting your information from vanity presses and such on the web.

The truth is that many people do not tell the truth on the web. You need to examine people's motives for what they say. If a vanity press gains customers by telling people what a horrible corrupt system regular publishing is, then maybe that is a motive for saying what they do. If you want further examples of this, and people who argue a lot like you do, check out the Bewares Board in this site.

If you disagree with anything I just said, don't waste my time and everyone else's by arguing at verbotic length here. Prove me wrong; get your work published.

Q

[TheTableist]

Qatz, I don't want, or NEED your life advice. You know nothing about me or my life, nor could you possibly glean anything from this conversation, regardless of how sharp you obviously think you are.

I think it's abundantly clear who it is that cannot take criticism here. It is those who swoop in and expect to be breathlessly praised for their wisdom that are the most easily offended. You're appalled that your "wisdom" and life advice have been dismissed out of hand. There is no reply you can post or set of words you can use that will stop me from being offended by your gall. Again I have to wonder who exactly you think you are. Apparently you and Tish have become convinced that you are some sort of saints, sitting on a mountaintop judging all you see and dispensing that judgement. Woe be to he who dares to challenge your assumptions or disagree with your "insights".

Dream on and prattle on all you want about eloquent good-hearted replies. I see people who can't wait to tell someone why their life is all @#%$ up. Imagine that you were being helpful, I saw a bunch of jerks who are offended that a newbie didn't come in all starry-eyed and suck on a few asses. Sure there were some nice and helpful replies in here. For instance, mamma's. I spoke to her by email. Spoke to others by email as well. I'm answering the jerk's here, the boldly self-important self-declared maharishis.

Really qatz, who the hell do you think you are? I really want to know what you think makes you so qualified to peer into someone's personal life from a message board thread.

Incidentally, I think your gift has rubbed off on me. Yep, it's, it's happening, I can see .. across the miles ... I see.... I can see you! Turns out you're another egomaniacal ass!

Lot of people here know that already though, I've seen your little arguments on many of the other boards.

I was about to hit add reply, but I figure I should satisfy your desires and reply at 'verbotic length'.

Being that we are all so hip to the table groove, I will turn the tables on you. Wait, I forgot.. verbotic. I will turn the proverbial tables on you. I will now follow your example and decide who and what you are. At length.

Single or in a bad relationship. Disrespectul of authority all your life, particularly the authority of age. Throughout your school years, you were always the kind that "knew better" than teachers, parents and guardians.

Civilian for life. Disdainful of laborers inwardly, while talking of the working classes outwardly. Argumentative. Hard to be friends with. Abrasive. Constantly acting out of emotion and apologizing later, but trying to apologize in ways that don't sound like an admission of guilt (see half your threads on the water cooler for reference).

You believe yourself to be an excellent judge of character. You imagine as you walk in public places that you know all about the people around you based on minimal input. You're usually wrong, but won't admit it.

Your writing is self-indulgent. When it's criticized, you pretend at humble acceptance while seething inwardly. You believe you are a genius. You take online intelligence tests frequently... and you cheat on them.

Continuing to follow your example, I will now tell you how to correct your life. Stop posting on message boards. You don't have the temperament. Spend time among other human beings in person, but do not correct them when they say something wrong, argue with them if they say something you disagree with, or gently assist them if they make a mistake. Let them be themselves. In time, you may actually develop friendships.

So, if you find this to be accurate, make the changes. However, if you find it to be wildly inaccurate, as you almost certainly will (even if it isn't) then you will know my frustration. Because the bare fact is this, my life and my relationships are squared away. Choose not to believe it but it will remain so. My wife and children agree, my family and friends agree, my coworkers agree. I have good relationships in abundance and a good life in general. I wanted to know if the system was as completely unfair as it is purported to be and that is ALL I asked. You cannot draw conclusions based on that and expect them to be accurate. Let me correct that, MOST people can't. You, obviously, can draw conclusions of any kind based on even less and have an unwavering belief in their accuracy. It's part of your sickness.

Long enough? Goody.

[dpaterso]

You know, I'll bet if you both met face to face, and maybe talked for a while over a cold beer, you'd find that you had a couple of things in common, were pretty decent people behind the harsh words, and end up laughing this off.

Or, you'd square off and beat the crap out of each other. That might work, too.

-Derek
hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57 (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[Cary]

Dont mind me Im just watchin....(Im so far intellectually outclassed,thats all I can do!! Ha! And Ive got the balls to say so!!) "All starry-eyed and suck onna few asses".(laughing...that was funny!!) Gatz,are you an 'egomanical ass'??? Ive decided that 'verbotic',is my word for the day!! Yall are just doin a fine job!! Ive never been more entertained!!
(lights cigarette,hangs red blazer over the fence,applies sunscreen..):hat Yall go right ahead.... Carybelle

[mammamaia]

sorry, cupcake, but you just don't have what it takes, verbotically speaking... you write too well to be able to write that poorly, i'm afraid... yes, you should give it up! [trying to respond in kind, to long-winded pomposity, that is]...

your heart's just not in it, and you can't dumb down your verbal skills enough to compete with the masters of muddled mediocrity... so, get the bleep outta here and go back to writing stuff that matters!... and if you want any help with anything at all, you know where to get me...

love and hugs, maia

[mogie]

Your original question that started all this was “Should I quit?”
Here is a direct answer.
Odds are, yes you should.
You ended with "is it really that bad?"
Here is another direct answer.
Yes, it is.

Writing and getting published IS probably as difficult and heartbreaking as people say. Having worked in publishing, and being up front about not being in a position to get anything published, I still had stuff sent my way and handed to me. I never read one worth passing along. My husband works for a large publisher and has things passed on to him all the time. He has strangers emailing him, people trying to submit for their sister-in-law because they once met him at a dinner party. My father sent a business associate after him because the associate’s wife had written a children's book. We hear from people we barely know because they know someone who wrote a book that is The Real Deal. The truth is, most are painfully bad and never get passed along. These are folks who BELIEVE in what they wrote. They feel the need to share their labor and in truth, it's just not good. Sometimes there is something that turns up you cannot move it to an editor's desk fast enough! That is rare. Actually, what is a word that means more rare than rare? Well, that's what it is. The chance of you being someone who makes a living by writing is almost nil. Maybe the odds of getting published are slightly higher. But don’t plan on living off the royalties. THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK. It has nothing to do with you. It's nothing personal. It’s all about odds.

Do you even want to talk about getting an agent? Most publishers will only take submissions from agents...

Of course, the above may only apply to those who have trouble getting published. Ask someone who got published by a big guy or even a medium or small press. They might tell you it's not so bad after all. Really wasn't that difficult. They just kept after it. Overall, it was a positive experience. Learned a lot and made some money. Nice people. They have a great agent. They're almost done with the next book and already have a publisher.

Take your pick. :-)

People write because they love to write. Let that be the basis of your decision. Not what a bunch of strangers on the internet say.

[rtilryarms]

Your Plumber pegged you and gave you great insight without ever having met you before. You listened to him. Then you deny the very same issues here.

Why don't you go back you your plumber for advice, maybe he is more inclined to take some of your crap.

And yes, I am a licensed Plumber.

In Case You Missed It (http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=141.topic)

[qatz]

I was just joking about you joking too. BTW Mike, you're a big yellow smiley face with a shine where your nose should be! Q

[rtilryarms]

At least it is where the sun shines

[Cary]

Far be It from me,to do such a thing....Ha!;) Yall are funny.:lo
Wheres all the good subjects on these boards these days??? Talk about a dry spell !!! Carybelle

[JustinoIV]

Tableist, why not start submitting your work, and let the publishers be the judge. Finish whatever you're working on, register it with www.copyright.gov, and then start querying agents and producers.

None of us can judge what we haven't seen. Also, you shouldn't be concerned about what the statistics are. There is a saying that says averages are for average people! Meaning tha don't worry about what others writers are or aren't doing, worry about yourself and your own work.

[HConn]

1. The lottery analogy is wrong. Getting published is about getting a good manuscript to a person in a position to buy it. It's also about being better than everyone else.

2. You'd be smart to have another career in addition to writing. At least until you are well-established. Read this: www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/quit.html (http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/quit.html)

3. Actually, you'd be surprised at the pay it forward attitude of many authors. As far as online advice goes, caveat emptor, as with everything.

4. Sure, someone may have already done your plot. But people aren't looking for new plots, they're looking for new stories, and new takes on stories. I enjoyed West Side Story, even though I had already read Romeo and Juliet.

5. Having a great manuscript is not a miracle, it's a result of talent and hard work. And yes, people care. Have you read any good books lately? Did you care? Did you recommend them to friends or buy them as gifts? There are plenty of others out there just like you.

People with little or no talent often blame bad luck or impossible odds. The truth is that publishing your work is like gambling at a casino, but in reverse. At the casino, you can win in the short term, but eventually you will lose. As a writer with a worthwhile manuscript, you may get rejected in the short term for a variety of reasons, but in the long run you will find a home for your manuscript.

[Cary]

Yeah!!....What he said!!!!!;) The most accurate reply yet!!Listen to the man...he B smart!!!! Carybelle

[SRHowen]

I jut read the entire thread--while amusing it was a waste of time. No matter what anyone says here, this guy already had the answer. (I really do hate it when people ask and then argue with the answer if they get the one they don;t want) Don't ask questions you are not ready to accept the answers to.

Should you give up? I am an editor. A professional editor. My answer to this--HELL YES. No editor will work with you. I can just see your response to the typical 10 page editorial letter on a novel.

Is it a lottery and that hard? Yeah, it is, if you are not willing to set aside your know it all 'tude and be ready to take the hard knocks.

Everyone here gave you good advice.

It boils down to--there are a ton of scams out there. Yeah new authors get swallowed up by them everyday. A lottery? No. It is dependent hard work, understanding, ego swallowing,--WORK

8 years on one novel. How, please tell will you write your next book in one year while promoting the previous book if you managed to sell a book?

Please, by all means give up. Clear a submission form the slush pile.

If you want us to say--oh great god of knowing all the answers your writing is golden keep on writing--you won't get it. And all your posts point toward someone who only wants to hear how good they are in relation to all the bad news out there.

Even if you didn't say the words.

i know the type. They ask a question, and have a pre-made answer (what they want to hear) in their head, when they don;t get that answer they blow tier top unable to accept or see the value in any other answer. (hey I have dealt with a lot of them when I worked at an abused women's shelter--they called them estranged spouses)

Get real buddy, and yes you should quit, it's as hard as they say--times 100. With your personality type, take that times 10,000. Get help bud, you need it.:ack

Shawn

[Cary]

Im surprized an editor would tell someone,"Hell yes,give It up!"....(tisk,tisk...)He just disagrees....I truely doubt he disagrees with everything listed in here.(Do you???) No,I dont think this thread has been a a waste of time.(If so,you wasted yours too..) Even If he didnt get anything out of It,doesnt mean I didnt learn something!! I did,I did!!(jumping up an down,waving arms!!!).Are we all obligated to accept the answers 'offered',on these posts? I think not.They are just that,'offerings',to be used,or not....
Only a personal opinion,we are 'allowed' those ya know..:No offense intended..maybe Ill submit to you one day!!!:grin Carybelle

[JustinoIV]

William, if you just like to write, submit to a writing contest. Some of htem even give feedback from professional writers and editors.

I'm reposting my post from the novel forum.

For beginning novelists, submitting to competitions are a good way of building up your name on important writing circles. Once your name is built up, agents and publishers are much more likely to be willing to read your manuscript.

www.southalabama.edu/engl...tinfo.html

opencampus.fccj.org/WF/

www.carvezine.com/

www.swinkmag.com/

You can find many more festivals and awards on www.pw.org"

[rtilryarms]

The point is that all the advice here is good. It may not meet with what you want to hear, but if you ask you should at least consider the answers. To ask a clarification of a pont is a good exchange of information. To argue someone's opinion is stupid. It's just an opinion based on one persons experience and circumstance.

SRH is correct. No one needs extra grief and stress in their lives. Not just in publishing but in all businesses. You waltz in to my office with an attitude just because you think you got the best knoledge or product I throw your butt out the door quicker than lightning. There are thousands of others, nice people, willing to take your place in line.

[SRHowen]

he wanted to hear that he was right--or that all he heard was right. He didn't like any of the other advice, and I doubt he would take the advice and editor would give.

Nothing is worse than working with a writer who thinks they are a pro (at everything) and then argues with everything you say.

Shawn

[rtilryarms]

yup

[Niggle by Leaf]

As a newbie to this board and someone who is wholly unconnected with any of the parties posting in this thread, I have been rather surprised at the speed with which people have rushed to tell a complete stranger, of whom they have almost no knowledge, that he should give up writing. I also find it strange that so many apparently experienced writers should not be sensitive to the difference between criticising someone's point of view (or work) and criticising the person himself. I would have been just as cross as The Tableist if someone who knew nothing about me had insinuated that I wasn't paying enough attention to my family.

I don't usually get involved in other people's arguments, but I genuinely believe people have misread The Tableist's position. (I agree that his mode of defense was unhelpful in this respect.) As far as I can see, he asked a genuine but quite specific question, with a real interest in finding the answer. Amongst some helpful replies, he was also subjected to some unnecessarily personal remarks and responded angrily. And now people from left, right and centre are starting to diagnose his personality problems. This is hardly encouraging to other newbies, wishing to ask questions and learn from the considerable amount of experience available on this message board.

[aka eraser]

Any writer with aspirations of being published must be able to remove his "writer" hat and don his "editor" hat before submitting.

Most do so during the revision process where it's essential to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Table was offered plenty of wheat and a bit of chaff. He could have ignored what wasn't relevant to his topic. Instead, he chose to focus his windy responses on the chaff and all-but ignored the wheat.

It was that tunnel-visioned mentality, not his writing chops, or lack of, that led some to suggest he might not be cut out for this business.

[rtilryarms]

The advice to quit writing had nothing to do with skill or creativity. It was attitude. The advice came from someone in the business of publishing.

All advice was discounted and discarded verbally like so much garbage.

It's fine if you want to be a jerk, just don't go shoving it down peoples throat because some people spit it right back at you. We have just as many rights as they do.

RT

[mammamaia]

...and right on the head... imo, a 100% accurate assessment of all the silly and sad stuff that's been going on here for far too long... i'm repeating it here, so it'll be read again, and hopefully get through to the perpetrators... i've stayed out of the fray, other than offering some encouragement to the poor guy who set off the fireworks, but i'll risk the wrath of the freud wanna-be's here, just in case there's some chance it'll stop this childish nonsense...



As a newbie to this board and someone who is wholly unconnected with any of the parties posting in this thread, I have been rather surprised at the speed with which people have rushed to tell a complete stranger, of whom they have almost no knowledge, that he should give up writing. I also find it strange that so many apparently experienced writers should not be sensitive to the difference between criticising someone's point of view (or work) and criticising the person himself. I would have been just as cross as The Tableist if someone who knew nothing about me had insinuated that I wasn't paying enough attention to my family.

I don't usually get involved in other people's arguments, but I genuinely believe people have misread The Tableist's position. (I agree that his mode of defense was unhelpful in this respect.) As far as I can see, he asked a genuine but quite specific question, with a real interest in finding the answer. Amongst some helpful replies, he was also subjected to some unnecessarily personal remarks and responded angrily. And now people from left, right and centre are starting to diagnose his personality problems. This is hardly encouraging to other newbies, wishing to ask questions and learn from the considerable amount of experience available on this message board.

AMEN!

love and hugs to all [anyway!], 'mamma'maia

[Niggle by Leaf]

I hesitate to revive this thread, after it's been so quiet, but I guess I didn't quite get my point across (nothing new there! :lol ) so I'll have one more go and then leave it be.

I understood that people were criticising The Tableist for his attitude, not his writing ability, and also agree that it would have been more politic (if perhaps not more honest) if he had managed to control his irritation at the personal aspects of the replies enough to allow him to thank those who'd made useful responses.

However, I don't think a couple of posts on a message board (especially under slightly trying conditions) is enough evidence to form such determined opinions as people seem to have been doing here. I also think that saying, on some slim evidence, "you have no chance of being a published author" to a newbie in a newbie forum of a writing board is not a wise or welcoming thing to do.

One of the reasons I don't usually get involved in arguments of this sort is that it's impossible not to come out sounding horribly holier-than-thou. I'm working hard here to avoid that, but I'm probably not succeeding. My apologies if so.

Thank you for your support, mammamaia.

[Tish Davidson]

Tableist asked about making a living as a professional writer. The point many of us were making, althought perhaps not as tactfully as we could have, is that to make enough money writing to support a family requires certain personality traits, people skill, and compromises in addtition to writing ability.

Tableist should consider whether he has these skills before he pursues a career as a professional writer. His posts seemed to indicate a rather short fuse and an inclination toward personal attacks, which are not good in business settings, but perhaps he is just the sweetest guy in person and we are only seeing his Net personality.

[grantmcduling]

G'day from Down Under,

Well, I've read your story and would like to add that you must never give up dreaming. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I too dreamed of being a professional writer; in fact I went around thinking like that for many years until I began freelancing. That whet my creative juices and gave me enormous satisfaction, not to mention some very welcome supplies of money.

Then quite unexpectedly three years ago I received an offer to work as a ghostwriter and then the game started! I was in.

I have now written 19 books, most of which are best sellers. I have done very well financially. In fact I have just been invited, all expenses paid, to speak at a freelance convention in Melbourne next month. This is as a result of me book The Business Of Freelance Journalism. I have also just submitted another book to the publisher (again one of my own) and this they hope to have out in time for the convention. See, once you become a published author it's much easier to have other books published.

It can happen. Hang in their and hone your craft in the freelance field first.

Hope this helps.

Grant

[qatz]

Shawn is absolutely right, HConn is right, Cary is wrong, Niggle is wrong, Maia is wrong. You, my friend, are hopeless.

[mammamaia]

... jest a bit arrogant and judgemental there, aincha, qatz?

and you just agreed with me on another post... oh, well... knew it couldn't last!:\

m

[qatz]

oh, for Pete's sake, maia, you just cant stand anyone to disagree with you. pardon me for trying to be nice.

signed, God

[mammamaia]

...besides, grandma would be more apropos than sister, m'sweet!:eek

[pammar]

I love to write. I've written all my life, just for myself and friends. I always felt it was hopeless to try to get pubilshed, but I had to write anyways. The writing bug is always in me. I am trying to get published now, as I get older. If I do, I do. If I don't, I'll still write. I am thinking that, if I can't get published traditionally, I'll self-publish. If I only get twenty readers to look at the story I told, I'll be ecstatic! I'll also have something of a legacy to give to each of my children...a piece of me that they can keep forever, long after I'm gone. You're a writer, or not a writer. If you are one, NOTHING will stop you from writing. It's in your blood and money, success or fame are not the object of what you do. You do it for excitement, fun, and self-fulfillment. That's my opinion only, of course :)

[Tish Davidson]

It is true that if you have the itch to write, you have to scratch it. However, the person who started this thread began by asking about becoming a professional writer and supporting a family that way. Advice was directed to him with that in mind.

I think your attitude is fine. Your goal is to be published, and you have reasonable expectations and attitude about self-publishing. I don't think you should construe any advice in this thread to mean that you (or any other writer) should give up writing if it is pleasurable - but making a living as a writer is a whole different bucket of expletives.

[qatz]

pammar, you are great. nothing here is meant to apply to you. tableist had a severe attitude problem, one which you don't share.

maia, just because i'm suddenly friendly to you (i must be having a senior moment) does not mean i have to agree with you. and, yah know, if my sister were still alive, she would be 63 or 64 at this moment. what's that, a year or two difference? what's the big deal, grandma? just jokin. but if you don't wanna be adopted, ok, i'll take it back. making relations doesn't mean you have to say dishonest things.

[Flawed Creation]

Hi! I am a newb, idealistic, have never submitted anything in the 6 months i've been seriously writing, and probably don't know what i'm talking about, however, everything i've read (whihc is, i allow myself the conceit, i fair amount for a 14 year old {not that i want to use my age to back up my points]) indicates:

"
1) Getting published is like winning the lottery. The odds against having a novel published are so monumental as to be virtually insurmountable. People still get published, sure, but people win the lottery too; doesn't mean I'm going to spend my savings buying lottery tickets. Conclusion: give up now."

most submitted novels are rejected, but if you write a good novel, that narrows the competition a lot; you can submit the same novelover and over until it's accepted, one book= infinite chances. most of the time, if one publisher rejectes a good book, another won't. write something good and someone will want it. (maybe not a giant publishing company at first, but someone)


"
2) Even if lightning strikes and you manage to get published, you will remain dirt poor. If you want your children to have a little more than macaroni figurines to open on Christmas morning, you'd better find a different career. Conclusion: give up now."

only a few strike it rich, so don't quit your job, but a decent supplemental income can be exspected, if you're good. if you really enjoy writing, it's like a part-time job and a hobby at the same time.
"
3) At least half of the so-called resources available to writers online and in print are actually just scams that feed on 'wanna-be syndrome'. You've got to choose between a lifetime of failure and being completely ripped-off. Conclusion: give up now."

umm... i'm confused here; anything that doesn't ask you for anyhting can't be a scam; therefore, resources are usually not scams. only if it charges money or takes your writing need you worry, and there are reputable organizations you can turn to; ask the more experienced writers. the "writer's market" book is highly recommended, there's some agent's union that has good restrictions on it's agent, i forget the name, but it's mentioned all the time.
"
4) Everything has been done. No matter how original you think your story is, the first Amazon.com reviewer would cry 'Hack!' and let slip the dogs of criticism. Moreover, he'd likely be correct. Someone, somewhere, already wrote and published your plot. Conclusion: give up now."

every surface satory has been done; but you can create a novel twist, or write a similar story with a different message or theme. doing an old story in an original way is as good as an original story, which are admittedly in very short supply.
"
5) Even if, by some miracle, you have a good, original and well-written manuscript, no one will care. As discussed above, the odds of someone actually reading it are nearly infinitesimal. What's more, if they do read it, they will care first and foremost about whether or not there is a market for it. Being an uniformed nobody, you have virtually no chance of 'striking while the iron is hot'. Have a mathematician figure out what the odds are against you hitting the publisher lottery with a book that they actually read, actually like, AND is marketable. Conclusion: get out while you still can."

if you simply blindly send stuff to random addresses, you're right.

there is a market for everything; finding it can be hard.

a query letter to an agent will get them to read it; since they make money by selling manuscripts, good manuscripts will interest them. while it's true that they're concerned about finding a market, the better your book is, the more there will be a market for it. they will know, if they're good, who will be interested in your book.

all these things, assume you're good. nothing in your email gives me any reason to think you aren't a good writer; your english is fine.

of course, nothihg suggests that you ARE a good writer, either.

if you are good, remember that agents and publishers both make their livings by accepting books; the rejections are something they'd prefer NOT to have to do. if you give them something they can take, they will take it.

[Sailor Kenshin]

"If you can be discouraged, you should be discouraged."

Some famous writer said that.

Me, I'm not sure. Send some pieces out. See what happens. If you don't, nothing can happen.

[pofelix]

dear tableist:

you think too much. Quit writing for a year and see if it means anything to you. Just do it, or don't do it, but don't waste your time trying to figure anything out. the odds are, from all that you said, you probably ARE wasting your time, so just focus on your family and whatever your day job is.

[thewritelady]

I know I'm a bit late in response to the original posting, but I just joined, so I'm gonna post anyway.
What I am uncertain of, is, what is there to lose if you send the manuscripts out?
You have a regular job, so you aren't going to lose your house if no one publishes your book, I assume.
Make 200 copies, and send it out to every agent and publisher that accepts simultaneous submissions that you can find.
The odds is in the numbers. If you never send it out, there is 100% chance no one will publish it. If you send it out to 20, one might like it, if you send it out to 200, 45 might like it. On the other hand you may send it out to 500 and not one single person will like your book.
The question I have is: Why would you ever give up? If you are not making your living on it, and you just want someone in a predominant position to validate your abilities by accepting it, then would it mean less if it happened when you were 75 as opposed to 40?
Just send the thing out, and write more. Read everything about the craft that you can get your hands on, send out everything you write.
Then, whatever you do, don't hold your breath for a response.

[mammamaia]

for any writer... love and hugs, maia

[maestrowork]

It's mostly an ego thing. If you send out 200 copies, and nobody returns calls, and you've just received rejection #184... it's hard for someone who thinks he's a good writer to believe that "all it takes is one."

[sfsassenach]

Hi! I am a newb, idealistic, have never submitted anything in the 6 months i've been seriously writing, and probably don't know what i'm talking about, however, everything i've read (whihc is, i allow myself the conceit, i fair amount for a 14 year old {not that i want to use my age to back up my points]) indicates:

Anyone who takes advice like this without a truckload of salt almost deserves to fail.