Superman For All Seasons

PeeDee · Jul 25, 2006

Anyone else read that graphic novel? I just picked it up yesterday, and it was magnificant. I've had some serious DC leanings recently (for a long time, my wife read a lot of Marvel, and since it was in the house, so did I) but I think Superman For All Seasons reaffirmed my love for DC even more than reading the return of Hal Jordan did.

What a great story. Minimalist dialogue and text, evocative artwork that reminded me more than anything of The Triplets of Belvelle, in terms of how each character was designed and drawn based on who they were.

I love Jim Lee and Alex Ross for their stunningly realistic artwork, but I thought that Tim Sale did a really wonderful job.

I thought, more than anything, that this was what Superman was really supposed to be about. The problem with Superman is, he's immensely powerful. So either you get things like the Justice League cartoon, where they tone him WAY down (to the point where getting shot seems to actually phaze him more often than not) or comics where the villians and situations are so over-the-top, they're almost abstract, because they have to be that big to compete with Superman.

Superman is done best in things like Kingdom Come, or Superman for All Seasons, or The Death of Superman, because his power is not the most important thing. Alien or no, it's his humanity, it's how he reacts to humanity itself, and it's how humanity in turn reacts to him. Are they dependent and weak, because of him? Do they rise up and become stronger because of him?

That's the importance of Superman. It's why I devour things like Kingdom Come but rarely read Action Comics, or the other monthly issues of Superman. They don't always get that point.

writeperch · Jul 25, 2006

Haven't read Superman for All Seasons, but will definitely get it now.

I really like Kingdom Come. Good stuff.

katiemac · Jul 25, 2006

Oh, neat, something else to look up on Amazon.

I've never read the comics, because they are a little too over the top for me. I keep going into Borders or B&N and the like, telling myself I'm going to pick up one of their compilations, but never do. One of these days I'll convince myself to go for Death of Superman, though. Now I have another to add on the list.

Any others?

Inkdaub · Jul 26, 2006

My problem is that I just don't like Superman as a comic character. He's powerful but there are powerful guys that I like. I don't know what it is about Superman exactly but I can't get into him.

katiemac · Jul 26, 2006

Inkdaub said:
My problem is that I just don't like Superman as a comic character. He's powerful but there are powerful guys that I like. I don't know what it is about Superman exactly but I can't get into him.

I'm probably a small minority, but I've never liked Batman.

RoccoMom · Jul 26, 2006

i love Superman, have read him since I was a kid. I'll have to pick up that novel. I just got Superman Returns, the GN about the movie. There are a few differences but not many.

Wasnt' that movie great!

PeeDee · Jul 26, 2006

I adore Superman and Batman both, when they're done right. The problem is, a great many writers don't understand that in order to use Superman properly, you have to understand that he's more iconic than anything, and in order to use Batman properly, to have to be telling a murder story but without him killing.

I would give my right arm to write Superman, or Batman, for a year or so...

AceTachyon · Jul 28, 2006

Hey PeeDee,

Read any Superman or Batman stories written by Greg Rucka. Rucka's got a really good handle on both characters.

PeeDee · Jul 28, 2006

I've read Greg Rucka's stuff in Gotham Central, which I thought was a very smart take on Batman, specifically because it was a very quiet take on Batman. With Batman, if you just go for the bigger-better action scenes, then you get a B-rated cheesy splatter-film, which simply does not use the character well.

I think one of my favorite Batman series of all time was the whole Knightfall series. It came along shortly after The Death of Superman, and I read it issue-by-issue trying to figure out Bane.

(for those of you who hadn't read it: Bane was not the hulking, growling moron that the really bad Batman movie made him out to be; he was incredibly smart and more than Batman's match.)

I remember when the series reached the big climax in volume two (of course I'm not telling you; if you haven't read it, go read it!) it absolutely broke my young innocent heart. First, Superman is killed, and then Batman is [what happened to him]!

I re-read the whole Knightfall series the other day. It still gets me, just like the Death and Return of Superman arc does, just like the recent and proper return of Hal Jordan got me eaerlier (although that was less of an impact, but it got me very excited)

katiemac · Jul 28, 2006

See, this is great. My current novel gives me an excuse to read comic books--and now you guys are supplying me with homework.

I did a quick Amazon search and Knightfall sounds like a story arc I'm looking for--even if it is Batman.

Is it three volumes or two? A review I read suggests two, but it looks like there's three listed.

And Death of Superman--is the complete arc Death of, World Without, and Return of?

K-Mark · Jul 29, 2006

Katie,

The death of Supes is one arc. It ends with him dying on the last page. Then there is another arc about while he is gone (four new supermen pop-up all different). Then the next arc is the return.

As for the Batman Knightfall, it is a great story. However, the things that happen after that arc get a little wierd, so don't bother with the arcs after unless you need to.

Just for your records/research. The big events right now.

Marvel: The government wants all Superheroes to register thier true identities and become gov't agents. Those who do not agree to the law will be hunted down and arrested. It's called Civil War and it's a great storyline. Hero vs hero, villian vs villian. Spider-man ends up taking off his mask for the first time in public at a press conference.

DC: The major heroes (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc) all go missing for a year after a big major battle. All the comics jumped one year and pick up when the heros are back. You are missing a whole year in one month. So, you are lost at the beginning. There is an ongoing mini-series that explains what happened while they are gone. It's called 52 (52 weekl issues)

PeeDee · Jul 30, 2006

They're handling most of Civil War very well, over at Marvel. I'm particularly impressed with what Joe Straczynski's doing with Spider-Man. He's made him a very interesting human being, which is the most important thing for Spider-Man to be. I like where they've landed all the characters so far, on each side of the war, because it feels fitting. If anyone but Captain America led the war against the Registration Act, it would not have been fitting.

I'm unsure of what I think about what DC's doing. So far, it's weak. "52" (one comic a week for fifty two weeks to talk about the year all the major heroes were gone) has its strong points, and it's getting better as it moves along. I just haven't seen the point to what they're doing. I expect the whole OYL idea was just to get all their characters out of the muckity-muck storylines they'd buried them in...but if they bring them back and then don't unbury them, then what good as it done? I hope they realize this.

...

K-Mark's right about Knightfall. First two volumns are amazing. I read the series in monthlies long after that, because I was fascinated not only with Bruce Wayne's story, but with Jean-Paul, whom I had disliked from the beginning and was still disliking (and still dislike; what a tosser). It did get silly after the first two volumns, though.

The Death, The World Without, and The Return of Superman may be three seperate arcs, but I think they're best read together, one after the other. You get an absolutely stunning story not only about superman, but about the world without superman, which raised some interesting and intelligent questions. For what started as a gimmick ("we're going to kill Superman! Yes, you heard right!! Superman will die!!!") they actually turned it into a very smart and very effective comic.

I had one of the first-run World Without issues that came with the black mourning Superman armband. Alas, being a young warthog, I lost it and have cursed myself for that frequently.

K-Mark · Jul 30, 2006

PeeDee said:
They're handling most of Civil War very well

Agreed. It's better than I thought it would be.

PeeDee said:
I'm particularly impressed with what Joe Straczynski's doing with Spider-Man.

Not sure how I feel about that. What did you think about the unmask? I'll say the writing was good, but I don't know if I like the idea. My guess is something big will go down and this will be undone. (Sort of like what they did to Flash). Some sort of Scarlet Witch rebirth which undoes everything. Bring all the mutants back, etc...

PeeDee said:
I'm unsure of what I think about what DC's doing. So far, it's weak. It has its strong points, and it's getting better as it moves along. I just haven't seen the point to what they're doing.

Yeah, I agree. I've read them all so far and it's been average at best.

PeeDee said:
I expect the whole OYL idea was just to get all their characters out of the muckity-muck storylines they'd buried them in...but if they bring them back and then don't unbury them, then what good as it done? I hope they realize this.

I don't think they do realize it. I thought the whole idea was to revamp the characters and merge all the different versions, but then with the way writers keep jumping around, I think that idea goes out the window. Each writer has their own interpetation anyway.

PeeDee · Jul 30, 2006

K-Mark said:
Agreed. It's better than I thought it would be.

So far, anyway. It's just begging for Bendis to have another "bad writing year" and screw it all up.

Not sure how I feel about that. What did you think about the unmask? I'll say the writing was good, but I don't know if I like the idea. My guess is something big will go down and this will be undone. (Sort of like what they did to Flash). Some sort of Scarlet Witch rebirth which undoes everything. Bring all the mutants back, etc...

If they do that, a lot of people (all right, me and the comics department of IGN, that's who) are going to storm off for a very long time and only read Astonishing X-Men. The unmask was well handled, in that they actually went through with it. The death of the mutants was handled about as anti-climatically as they could manage it ("...and anyway, all those mutant dudes, are like not-so-much-anymore, so moving on....") but I'm very proud that they've stuck with eliminating a lot of the mutants and I hope that they stick out the Unmasking, they stick out the civil war, and they actually make it matter in terms of the Marvel Universe, and not just end it with things going "more or less back the way they were."

I think that it's silly that they're trying to run the Annihilation arc at the same time as the Civil War. I mean, the writing sucks on it anyway (I missed the Silver Surfer, and this is the best they can do to bring him back?) but why try to make the galaxy seem threatened while putting your focus on the Civil War?

I don't think they do realize it. I thought the whole idea was to revamp the characters and merge all the different versions, but then with the way writers keep jumping around, I think that idea goes out the window. Each writer has their own interpetation anyway.

The problem is, they need to seriously cut down on the number of series running for each set of characters. This goes for Marvel too. I am not going to read Superman, Man of Steel, Action Comics, Man of Tomorrow, and whatever the hell else they put out for Superman that month. Seriously. I long since gave up trying to follow Uncanny X-Men, New X-Men, Astonishing X-Men, X-Factor, X-Calibur, X-YZ (or whatever else they have). I buy Astonishing and I read New X-Men really quick in the store, because right at the moment, the writing is solid.

Give me one Superman title. Give me one Batman title. Give me one Flash title, one Green Lantern title (the Corps are back! and wonderful!).

katiemac · Jul 30, 2006

What did you think about the unmask? I'll say the writing was good, but I don't know if I like the idea. My guess is something big will go down and this will be undone.

Well, in the future when Peter Parker's retired (and don't ask me which line it is, because I haven't a clue) hadn't he been previously unmasked, anyway? I recall someone explaining to me that in a moment of need he had to don a Spider-man costume he stole from a costume shop with his own name sewn on the front because everyone knew his identity.

I figured the fact he unmasked himself--which I have to admit is strangely interesting based on the identity complex he and his fellow supers deal with--is just another retcon trick to follow suit with another already-conceived plotline.

PeeDee · Jul 31, 2006

That's fine, and I can deal with that. I just hope they keep it that way. Spider-Man and Peter Parker is the perfect of all possible super-heroes to have to deal with the unmasking as a permenant problem. It's a spider-man sort of story more than anyone else's.

K-Mark · Jul 31, 2006

PeeDee said:
It's just begging for Bendis to have another "bad writing year" and screw it all up.

I'm telling you, his Daredevil run is pretty good. Even his replacement writer is doing well with the story line. Let me tease. One jail. Inmates: Punisher, Bullseye, Kingpin, Daredevil, Hammerhead, Owl. You do the math. Check it out.

peedee said:
The unmask was well handled, in that they actually went through with it. I'm very proud that they've stuck with eliminating a lot of the mutants and I hope that they stick out.

Agree with both. There were too many mutants. Now ut's down to 198 known. I like it. As for the Spider-man. Yes it was handled well. The puking, the repercussions, etc. However, I'm not sure if I like the idea.

For me, Spidey's appeal was that he could do all this cool stuff, but couldn't tell anyone (almost). So many good stroies stemmed from this and I liked the secret hero thing. It made life hard for him.

As I read, though my mind is changing. The current issues are well-written, so maybe I will be swayed. Doc Ock being pissed he got trashed by a 15 year old is pretty funny.

I skipped the Annihilitation series. Not a fan of the big cosmic thing.

Peedee said:
The problem is, they need to seriously cut down on the number of series.
Give me one Superman title. Give me one Batman title. Give me one Flash title, one Green Lantern title.

I agree, but that ain't happening until the sales drop. It's a business.

K-Mark · Jul 31, 2006

katiemac said:
Well, in the future when Peter Parker's retired (and don't ask me which line it is, because I haven't a clue) hadn't he been previously unmasked, anyway? I recall someone explaining to me that in a moment of need he had to don a Spider-man costume he stole from a costume shop with his own name sewn on the front because everyone knew his identity.

I never read that one, but there are a lot of alternate spidey future's out there. Including the Spider-girl one (she's his daughter). That series just ended at issue 100.

So, I guess you're right. It was just a matter of time before it happened in the current titles.

katiemac · Jul 31, 2006

I never read that one, but there are a lot of alternate spidey future's out there. Including the Spider-girl one (she's his daughter). That series just ended at issue 100.

Actually, I was thinking that storyline may have included Spider-girl. Possibly the same storyline when she had to rescue him from his dreamworld, where Gwen was still alive and she (Spider-girl) never existed.

K-Mark · Jul 31, 2006

Interesting...Maybe I'll check it out.

Sparhawk · Jul 31, 2006

AceTachyon said:
Hey PeeDee,

Read any Superman or Batman stories written by Greg Rucka. Rucka's got a really good handle on both characters.

Greg Rucka's

BATMAN: NO MANS LAND was absolutely outstanding. Rucka tells a great tale.

katiemac · Jul 31, 2006

Interesting...Maybe I'll check it out.

In retrospect, I may have blurred some details from House of M and Spider-girl together, but I'm not completely sure. He is retired in Spider-girl, but I don't know if people know him as Peter Parker or not. In House of M, which contains the dreamworld, they do.

Didn't want to lead you on in case you look into it further!

K-Mark · Jul 31, 2006

No sweat. I'll figure it out.

Superman For All Seasons

Where's my tea, please...?

just write

Five by Five

wrapped in plastic

Five by Five

Where's my tea, please...?

Odd person

Where's my tea, please...?

Five by Five

Philly Phanatic

Where's my tea, please...?

Philly Phanatic

Where's my tea, please...?

Five by Five

Where's my tea, please...?

Philly Phanatic

Philly Phanatic

Five by Five

Philly Phanatic

Jenna's Cabana Boy

Five by Five

Philly Phanatic