Poetry in Novels

Akuma · Jul 23, 2006

Referred to the FAQ but I couldn't find it so I'm bringing out the big guns, here. I have no doubt that this has been asked at one time or another, but unless you've got a past thread to dig up, here it is:

In my novel, the MC is a poet and on certain occasions recites his own poems.

I usually center and italicize
The poem
Since I remember seeing that
But is that correct?

Also, are quotation marks necessary for the poem? I never really used them.

Or does the editor handle this stuff and I should just not worry?

Penguin Queen · Jul 23, 2006

I don't think the quotation marks are necessary unless he is actually speaking.

As for the position of the poem on the page, I'd leave worrying about that to the editor.

SpookyWriter · Jul 23, 2006

I think poetry or other phrases are left justified in a novel. The quote marks are not needed.

James D. Macdonald · Jul 23, 2006

How poetry is set in a novel depends on the house style. Let production handle it.

Think very, very carefully before you quote any of your character's poetry at all.

SpookyWriter · Jul 23, 2006

James D. Macdonald said:
Think very, very carefully before you quote any of your character's poetry at all.

Why?

Norman D Gutter · Jul 24, 2006

Most poetry is written left justified. I suggest doing that in your ms., but indenting all lines one or two indents. In the final production, they might want to use a different font as the means of making it stand out.

NDG

Jamesaritchie · Jul 24, 2006

Poetry

I'd say how you format poetry depends on how you use it. If the character is speaking it, treat it as dialogue because that's what it is. Otherwise, treat it as any other narrative, but italicize it.

This isn't the same thing as including a poem in a nonfiction book.

But I'd agree with UJ. Think twice before including poetry written by the POV character.

FloVoyager · Jul 24, 2006

What does the poetry do for the plot, characterization, etc? Does it explain something, move the story along, flesh out the character? If so, I'd include it; if not, I wouldn't. Or not more than one, as an example of what type of poetry the guy writes.

As for how you format it in your ms, if you don't know what the particular house you're submitting to wants, I think it depends on the length of the poem. If it's really short, you could just leave it right in the main body text, but italicized it. A long piece should probably be indented or centered. And you don't need quotes for any of that, unless the guy is reciting his own work, and then, as mentioned above, it's dialogue.

C.bronco · Jul 24, 2006

I know Stephen King had a poem (fairly short) in "IT," but I don't recall the format he used.

blackbird · Jul 24, 2006

You don't need quotation marks. Actually, I've seen this handled a number of different ways. I have seen verse that is simply blocked off from the text, and verse that is both blocked off and put in italics. It probably depends on the house style of your publisher, but just in manuscript format, may have more to do with your own personal preference. If simply quoting a couple of lines, you can incorporate it into the text. Personally, I wouldn't use whole blocks of verse except maybe once (where it's most important to establish, for instance, the type of poetry the protagonist writes). I've often inserted poetry and lyrics (my own) into my manuscripts, but have learned that most readers find it annoying, so I've cut back from the practice drastically.

Akuma · Jul 24, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
But I'd agree with UJ. Think twice before including poetry written by the POV character.

I haven't put much poetry in--only twice so far.

The first time was when the protag goes to read at a poetry reading and his poem impacts a young man in the audience to the point where that man believes that they are kindred souls.
The second time was when the MC is with a group of people in a tough situation and, at the young man's request, composes a poem off the top of his head. It connects the group which he will travel with for the rest of the story, for they find he is able to portray the emotions that they have trouble explaining.

The poetry is not long and I don't plan on having much of it. I like to think that each one would be very beneficial towards the story.

MidnightMuse · Jul 24, 2006

I wrote a good long story once, and started each new chapter with a Haiku pertinent to what was taking place.

God only knows what possessed me to do that. It seemed like a good idea, and I was talked in to doing it by someone I had thought knew what she was talking about. It was the first thing to go when I started edits.

I'd just say that if you do put it in, use it sparingly, make sure it's necessary, and be willing to let yourself take it out if it's not working.

veinglory · Jul 24, 2006

Personally I think centred poetry looks amateurish, itlacs, probably, and left justify.

I can only think of one novel that I thought benefitted from having poetry in it (Keri Hulmes' 'The Bone People') and that was not recited directly by a character and was in fact very excellent poetry.

What hits me in many manuscripts about poets (and I do not mean to imply it will be true of you) is that the poetry simply isn't very good and so having everyone treat the character as a great poet just hits me as a bit 'oh, pul-eeze'!

Akuma · Jul 24, 2006

veinglory said:
Personally I think centred poetry looks amateurish, itlacs, probably, and left justify.

I can only think of one novel that I thought benefitted from having poetry in it (Keri Hulmes' 'The Bone People') and that was not recited directly by a character and was in fact very excellent poetry.

What hits me in many manuscripts about poets (and I do not mean to imply it will be true of you) is that the poetry simply isn't very good and so having everyone treat the character as a great poet just hits me as a bit 'oh, pul-eeze'!

That's another problem I'm having. How do I know if it's good? The MC is modest about it, but if the poetry isn't very good, how the hell did it affect the young man in the audience?
I don't know much about poetry, myself. What do you recommend for studying it? Should I look at the Poetry forum?
Or does poetry even need a particular form?

veinglory · Jul 24, 2006

if you want a friendly place with a range of skills and a few great poets true blueline poetry, the poetry subforum right here or poem train. if you want a very harsh forum skewed more to the high-performing end try 'poetry free for all'. (These should google but if you have trouble finding them I will dig up links).

You can also try submitting a few poems to markets and contests--if a few get through you know you're doing well

I think the main thing would be to keep an eye on this when getting readers' comments and try to get a few readers who also read poetry.

I write a little poetry but when I was contemplating having a poet protag I thought I might get a 'guest poet' in to write the verse...

Jamesaritchie · Jul 24, 2006

Akuma said:
That's another problem I'm having. How do I know if it's good? The MC is modest about it, but if the poetry isn't very good, how the hell did it affect the young man in the audience?
I don't know much about poetry, myself. What do you recommend for studying it? Should I look at the Poetry forum?
Or does poetry even need a particular form?

If you don't know it's good, it's probably bad. Good poetry is probably a heck of a lot harder to write than good fiction, and the last thing you want in a novel is bad poetry.

davidthompson · Jul 24, 2006

veinglory said:
What hits me in many manuscripts about poets (and I do not mean to imply it will be true of you) is that the poetry simply isn't very good and so having everyone treat the character as a great poet just hits me as a bit 'oh, pul-eeze'!

I agree. Plenty of readers will be able to distinguish good poetry from bad, and will lose their suspension of disbelief if they can see that the actual poetry that the other characters are raving about, isn't that good. Unless you know for sure that you're as good a poet as your character, better to concentrate on the reactions to the poetry, or the character's thoughts while writing it, and omit the poetry itself.

I have the same problem with a character in my WIP who likes to sing spur-of-the-moment parodies of songs that he makes up, which his friends think are funny. I struggled over whether to include a few lines of one, and finally did so, but eliciting a few smiles in both the readers and the other characters with a corny parody is much less intimidating than presenting an original poem that readers need to believe can have a life-changing effect.

Akuma · Jul 24, 2006

The "life-changing" poem in question actually isn't that great; if anything, it's vague and simplistic and ignored by the audience as a boy's attempt at art. Lord knows, I'll give it a facelift in the future.
But the poem strikes a cord in the young man's heart, as it relates to everything he feels about in life.

William Haskins · Jul 24, 2006

george orwell's brilliant novel 'keep the aspidistra flying' is the story of a poet who builds his poems in his head. if you look at the amazon excerpt, which is from harvest books (click to page 6), you'll see how they handled it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0156468999/ref=sib_dp_top_ex/104-7063241-6149555?ie=UTF8&p=S00C#reader-link

Jamesaritchie · Jul 24, 2006

Akuma said:
The "life-changing" poem in question actually isn't that great; if anything, it's vague and simplistic and ignored by the audience as a boy's attempt at art. Lord knows, I'll give it a facelift in the future.
But the poem strikes a cord in the young man's heart, as it relates to everything he feels about in life.

I think the question is not what the young man thinks about the poem, but what readers will think about it.

blacbird · Jul 24, 2006

It may be just me, but I have this regrettable tendency to skip right over poetry I see embedded between paragraphs of prose in a novel. And, as a reader, I'm usually no worse off for doing that. If something in the poem does become an issue later in the novel, I can always go back and read the thing.

I guess what I'm saying is that, like anything else you do in a novel, the poetry has to pass the test of "Is this necessary? Does it contribute to the story?"

caw.

William Haskins · Jul 24, 2006

to go back to orwell's novel, yes it does. we get great insights into his mind, his thoughts on capitalism and consumer society through the poem he constructs throughout the first half of the novel. it also acts as an uncomfortable glimpse into himself, which contributes to the personal transformation he experiences.

generally, people's eyes glaze over at poetry though. while i think it's a shame, i also accept it as reality.

maestrowork · Jul 24, 2006

I have poetry in my novel, and it gives insight into the character's soul. But yes, I do realize people may skimp over them.

William Haskins · Jul 24, 2006

their loss, brother.

illiterwrite · Jul 24, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
If you don't know it's good, it's probably bad. Good poetry is probably a heck of a lot harder to write than good fiction, and the last thing you want in a novel is bad poetry.

Unless, of course, you're trying to show that your character thinks s/he's great but isn't.

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