The plot

SpookyWriter · Jul 22, 2006

I tried to distinguish the plot from theme years ago (1994) to another writer and ended up with this poem, of sorts. How do other writers perceive the plot?

A plot of ground to lay me down,
A twist of fate to make me hate,
A fallow lie I lay in wait,
A chance to grasp what nay I say,
upon this plot of ground,
a cherished hand has held me down,
another night has come and gone,
while I lay awake, my fate,
my fate, a lie, I can not die

LightShadow · Jul 22, 2006

Characters are plot. I don't get caught up in the sticky little stuff. I write to entertain, and I write to make my characters come alive. If I do it properly, I think, everything else falls into place.

SpookyWriter · Jul 22, 2006

That's interesting because I had thought good characters help to support the plot, not the other way around.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 22, 2006

plot

I don't care at all about plot. I want characters and story. Tell a story and you get a plot for free. Write a plot and you still have to tell a story.

I feel the same way about theme. I never write with theme in mind. I tell a story, try to fill it with good characters, then find and hone the theme in the next draft.

LeeFlower · Jul 22, 2006

I forget which 'how to write a novel' book it was that used The Wizard of Oz as an example of the difference between plot and theme, but I think it's the clearest explanation I've ever seen. According to it, the plot is "A young lady gets swept into a fantasy world and has to find her way back home again." The theme is "be it ever so humble, there's no place like home."

Personally, I worry about plot, character, and world. If a theme ends up coming along for the ride, bully for it, but it's always seemed like a very 10th grade English class concept to me. Nobody reads a book and tells their friends "oh, you'll love it! It has such a wonderful theme!"

kristie911 · Jul 22, 2006

I think that if you take good characters and put them in an interesting situation, whatever that may be, that plot and theme will just come along for the ride. If I allow myself to worry about "the deeper meaning" or try to plot first and tell the story second, I get too caught up in the schematics to write a good story.

Of course, my book is languishing away in my office, so what do I know?

sunandshadow · Jul 22, 2006

I believe that theme is the point(s) of the story, and plot is the way the characters' actions combine to argue the point(s) of the theme.

NightWynde · Jul 22, 2006

A friend once told me my favorite description: "My first draft is to get the plot out. The second one is to fine-tune the characters. Theme just kinda shows up."

moblues · Jul 22, 2006

kristie911 said:
I think that if you take good characters and put them in an interesting situation, whatever that may be, that plot and theme will just come along for the ride. If I allow myself to worry about "the deeper meaning" or try to plot first and tell the story second, I get too caught up in the schematics to write a good story.

Of course, my book is languishing away in my office, so what do I know?

This is very close to my way of thinking on this. I do a basic story outline first. I then figure out what kind of characters I think would work for the story. Before I even start from there, I let the characters talk to each other as if they were in a crowded subway car that has been stuck for three hours. They can't escape each other. They tell me who they are. They tell me their names––where they are from, etc. I also find out who is going to get along with whom.

Then I let them write the story. Plot? They won't let me have one.

Mike

Akuma · Jul 22, 2006

Life is a plot. Write life.

tu_sense · Jul 23, 2006

I have to disagree with some of you and say that I actually like to think a little bit about a theme as I do my outline and such. I think of theme as my own personal purpose. Why am I writing the story? And plot is the vehicle for that. It contains the characters and their personal motivation. Why are they in the story? In the first draft, I will let the theme sit in the background, but I like to draw it out more as I edit.

kristie911 · Jul 23, 2006

Every story has a plot...if not it would just wander meaninglessly and never go anywhere purposeful, which doesn't sound very interesting. Theme seems to be deeper and is probably more prominent is certain kinds of works more than other. Literary works, for instance, probably tend to follow a theme more deeply than some other kinds of writing.

I don't think I've ever pondered a theme in my writing...if it's there, great but if not, I don't stress about it. But plot, it has to have a plot.

SpookyWriter · Jul 23, 2006

Here is something I wrote about plot and theme years ago when discussing this issue with some other writers:

Me:

Here is something that may be of interest to some: complicated plots
are difficult to construct and even more difficult to complete. A simple
plot may consist of the protagonist and antagonist as the main characters in a story. The plot consists of a single conflict and resolution with a
prima facia climax. There is a simple story line and its continuation is
built around the protagonist overcoming/defeating the antagonist.

Anthony xxxxx writes:
You list a few antagonists, but you forgot to mention one of the most
important. The antagonist and protagonist can be the same person.

Me: <<Reply>>

How could I forget...you are right about the dual purpose of the
protagonist/antagonist relationship. Yet, as with any plot it is so
easy to interchange the characters and end up with a completely
different story than with what you started with.
The rationale behind a substitution of character behavior from
protagonist to antagonist is to demonstrate change. Without some form
of change within a characters persona, the story may not succeed or
come out flat.
When a protagonist changes character, you should have a definitive
purpose for such. As with a story where a person becomes a werewolf.
The normal progression from shy, friendly, or humble protagonist can
be substituted with a change to an antagonist with minimal difficulty
because we all know that anyone can become something other that what
they first appear.
The trick is to find a medium point of transformation; whereas, the
reader accepts the change without reluctance. Should your audience
resist the change, you haven't succeeded and the story will fall flat.

scarletpeaches · Jul 23, 2006

Akuma said:
Life is a plot. Write life.

Life doesn't have a plot. Generally speaking, most people's lives don't have a story, a purpose, loose ends tied up, a distinct narrative. So I say the exact opposite. Don't write life. That's for diarists.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - character is plot.

moblues · Jul 23, 2006

kristie911 said:
Every story has a plot...if not it would just wander meaninglessly and never go anywhere purposeful, which doesn't sound very interesting. Theme seems to be deeper and is probably more prominent is certain kinds of works more than other. Literary works, for instance, probably tend to follow a theme more deeply than some other kinds of writing.

I don't think I've ever pondered a theme in my writing...if it's there, great but if not, I don't stress about it. But plot, it has to have a plot.

Just so I'm not misunderstood: I know where my story is going by my basic outline. Basic outline. I toss my characters onto the gameboard and let them sort it out for themselves. I know where I'm taking them (they do too, and sometimes they don't like it) and I know the possible resolutions of all of their situations. They tell me how they want to get there.

If you tie yourself down with a static plot, you have already set the boundaries of what you can write.

What I'm trying to say is that you might be plowing through and making great progress on where you thought your story was going, and then one of your characters stops you.

Character A wants to fall in love with character C. You had it character B. Character E was supposed to be a villian, but turned himself into a rougue with redeeming qualities. I can go on and on about this, but I'll spare you.

We all have opinions about writing. Theme, plot, characterization, POV, and so on. The only right way to do it is to do it well. The plot and theme will be clear when you type "The End."

"Hey you there. Off the bloody soapbox." A Bobby approached me as he chewed his mustache.

"I was only trying to help."

"Do you think anyone cares? Move along."

"Yes sir."

Mike

Akuma · Jul 23, 2006

scarletpeaches said:
Life doesn't have a plot. Generally speaking, most people's lives don't have a story, a purpose, loose ends tied up, a distinct narrative. So I say the exact opposite. Don't write life. That's for diarists.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - character is plot.

Yeah, but you can't blame me for trying to sound deep, right? :poke:

PeeDee · Jul 23, 2006

The closest I get to thematic writing is, when I'm first getting into a project, and I know the shape of the thing in my head, I'll ask myself, "What's it about?"

And usually, it's just a one word, or one-sentence answer.

Example: my current book is about....Change. Or, in a sentence, It's about fighting to make things like they were, but doing nothing but damage in the process.

That's it. When I go back into the re-write, I know there are some themes present (I can start to see them gently as I write closer and closer to the end) but I don't touch them while I'm writing now, I'll just confuse my narrative.

As for plot, I generally have one, but it is only a solid thing until my characters begin to move comfortably (usually, by page five) and then it tends to change and become a fluid thing...which is fine. It still goes in the right direction, it just does it more logically than it would if I revited to my plot, or an outline.

SpookyWriter · Jul 23, 2006

PeeDee said:
And usually, it's just a one word, or one-sentence answer.

Example: my current book is about....Change. Or, in a sentence, It's about fighting to make things like they were, but doing nothing but damage in the process.

PeeDee, change isn't theme or so in my opinion. The change is how the character resolves a conflict which is an essential ingredient in a story. Without change we have to ask what happened to make the protagonist overcome a problem or issue (challenge) in the story.

Theme is defining the moral attributes of a story. Plot is a single idea that can be easily recognised in the story.

"Man overcomes troubled past to help friends with similar problems." -- theme

"Two crazy bikers cross the U.S. in search of fun, but end up finding more than they bargained for when they meet up with demons on wheels out to gather rebel souls." -- plot

Cheers,

PeeDee · Jul 23, 2006

I know. That's what I mean. That's as close as I actually get to thematic writing....

In this case, "change" as defined in my novel is a bit thematic. It's not the story (well, not any more than 'change' is at the heart of every story ever written, if you get my meaning) but is something underneath, where you realize perhaps after two or three times reading it that every time something changes, it has disasterous repercussions, because frequently the change that's occuring is someone trying to force things in the world to go back to "what once was."

That's not the plot of the book at all, that's what you could pick up underneath.

SpookyWriter · Jul 23, 2006

Change isn't bad. I have a character in my wip who is a young girl with a troubled past and must decide if she wants to take more personal responsibility to help a couple of lost kids or just blow them off. She is also mentally unstable, so it adds a little to the problem of change.

But the plot is so not like the change in one person, nor is it about any redeeming themes in society. I write horror, so for me a theme is worthless because my goal is to terrify people and provide enough suspense in the work to carry the story forward.

I am a liar, a liar who will tell you whatever makes you happy.

PeeDee · Jul 23, 2006

Change isn't always bad, no. Without change, there is only stagnation.

In this particular instance, it's the sort of change where someone tries to force something into being like it once was. That never ends well, and it doesn't go well in this particular case.

SpookyWriter · Jul 23, 2006

Okay, Pete. Here's a writing exercise on plot and the use of change. What was the plot for Stephen King's novel IT? Who changed the most and why? There were several scenes where it was evident someone changed, became different, and faced their worst fears.

Characters in real life don't always face their fears and die or are destined to remain stagnate as you said. These stories, people, don't make a story but a sad facet of life. People want to be uplifted from their dull and weary existence and count on writers to give them that spark...they want a hero with problems who can overcome them a become famous or rich, or just happy.

The plot is a subset of human life.

Jamie doesn't know it yet, but tomorrow (on his tenth birthday) his life is going to change. He can't know that what he does before bed will affect his life forever, he doesn't know about the terrible sadness he will cause, but he also change the outcome by just being himself. But who is he really? A kid or a monster? Only his closest friend knows the true secret that could save Jamie and stop an evil from taking the souls of an innocent family.-- plot (not a great one)

cattywampus · Jul 23, 2006

The Wizard of Oz is an excellent example of the difference between plot and theme, it even sounds familiar - I've often used it.

[/I]The the theme is what the story is about: "Crime." "Jealousy." "War." "Love."

What you are referring to as "theme," James Frey (yes that James Frey) calls the premise.

The premise is what the reader takes away from the book. It's the "message, the "lesson." It's the reason the writer chose that theme, because she believes passionately in what she has to say about it. It's something that the world needs to know, or to be reminded of, and it's universal: true for all people. (In that guise, Wizard is a poor example - for some people, the best place is anywhere but home, but we won't quibble). "Crime doesn't pay," is a premise. "Anyone who kills a child under 14 should automatically get the death penalty," is another one. "Love plus plenty of money makes for a good marriage." The list is endless.

This passionate belief in the premise and the conviction that the world needs to know or be reminded of it, alone has the power to keep a writer going through the months or years it takes to complete a book. To do it right is mostly hard, lonely, drudgery during which time you sit and type, no matter how you feel, because it needs to be done. And you are the best one to do it.

If your story grows out of your characters, it has a storyline, not a plot. It's character-driven, like Crime and Punishment, To Kill a Mockingbird and many others. The events of the story could be replaced by other, like events, and not affect the story, which is about the characters. Character is not plot, it's storyline.

A story in which the characters could be replaced by other characters without harming the story in any way (Wizard, Alice in Wonderland), on the other hand, calls for a plot - it is plot-driven. Thrillers are examples of plot-driven novels, as are mysteries.

A few authors can blend the two effectively, but they are pros.

SpookyWriter · Jul 23, 2006

cattywampus said:
The Wizard of Oz is an excellent example of the difference between plot and theme, it even sounds familiar - I've often used it.

If I understand you correctly, Oz is theme driven?

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 23, 2006

At the expense of looking like a dope and revealing how little I actually know about this whole anaylsis stuff, I create characters and then I give them an adventure of sorts. I throw in a few speed bumps, side tracks, and hiccoughs along the way just to spice things up.

Plot?

Theme?

Maybe these come automatically, I don't know. But I don't intentionally go out of my way trying to figure out how or where they fit in my story.

The plot

SpookyWriter

LightShadow

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