When to accept defeat?

Sometimes its not about moving on, its just a simple case of stepping away

Its never really over until you either get paid for the story, or you lose passion for writing it. Work on soemthing else...and I bet in no time at all, the bug that got you writing your story will be eating at you once again.

Unless its ready, in which case, start getting that puppy out there.

Would be a terrible shame to give up with the finish line around the corner, wouldnt it?

ShawnW said:

So I'm on my 16th draft now- and the script not where it needs to be. Very imperfect. I'm thinking it may never be. I think I'm gonna finish this draft and begin work on the story boards.

Is this defeatism, or realism? I'm having a tough time with it. When do you guys move on?

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Here's something that will ease your pain and make you feel better. I wrote an epic Western set in 1850 California, beginning with a 75-page treatment. 20 drafts and seven years later it as done ... and it won "Best Screenplay" in the 1998 Breckenridge Festival of Film screenplay competition.

Now, at least part of the tardiness was the result of me being in the learning mode, some of it was the scale of the story, and some of it was I didn't work on it full time, by no means.

At this stage you might consider getting some outside help so as to accelerate your process, sometimes fresh eyes see things you're blind to. Get an evaluation from a script consultant, tell them what your goals are with the piece and send them the best draft you have. You can get this done for $200 or so, which is peanuts compared to the value of your effort to date and what the thing could sell for ... and hence worth every penny.

Check it out. If you can't find anyone you're happy with or you can afford, email me and I'll do it for you gratis.

Now there's a deal you can't refuse, eh?

ShawnW said:

No no you misunderstand- I'm not abandoning it, I'm moving on to the storyboarding stage. I'm not completely happy with the script, it really isn't terrific, but I'm going to continue on anyway to storyboarding and dialogue recording.

This might be stupid because if I do go back to change things I'll have to recreate the story boards and re-record the dialogue. But I think it's the right choice becuae it will keep me moving forward and small revisons won't be a big deal. I hope.

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I really didn't assume you were "abandoning" anything, it just came off to me that you were struggling to get a draft you'd be entirely happy with. I assumed you were writing a spec.

I don't think many here storyboard their scripts, being mostly spec writers. I know I don't. Ever. I finish a script it goes to market. Let the director storyboard it if he wishes (some do, some don't).

But you're going to make this picture yourself, I take it? And hence you need to storyboard it? I'd say full speed ahead after 16 drafts of your script. How bad can it be? Surely there's nothing in there you couldn't overcome.

Full speed ahead, Elmer!

If you're storyboarding the whole thing, you need to really be in love with the project. Trust me, by the end you'll be sick to your back teeth of the whole thing. I would suggest storyboarding some of the scenes that you are sure will work/make it through rewrites. Drawing is a great way to allow your brain to subconsciously work on those niggly plot details and by the time you've boarded a scene or two, you may have a clearer understanding of how you want the next draft to go.

I have encountered the same issue many times now. It does get a little old having to revise over and over and over. Hitting deadspots also kills me, like my new script I busted out 30 pages in about 2 days. I am now on 48 after about a month now.. Very irritating.

Finally I just sat off of it for a week, mostly just jotting down notes and ideas into my notebook. I am now ready to get back in there and knock it out.

But I would never give up on it. Shelve it for awhile and move onto something else then come back to it. My first script, still unfinished was a drama. I put it away then started a horror script, shelved it then wrote my sci-fi which I did finish. Now I am a new project for my kids and semi-stuck on it, but have 3rd act done. Just trying to knock out 2nd act.

My thoughts are always keep writing, just go back and forth from script to script if you have to. Start something new and fresh. I also suggest letting others read your work that you trust, they can let you know how imperfect your work is then and maybe shed some light on things you were having problems with. It also gives you the opportunity for a little Q&A feedback from them.

What's that "Famous" quote from Galaxy Quest?

NEVER GIVE UP! NEVER SURRENDER!!

ShawnW said:

So I'm on my 16th draft now- and the script not where it needs to be. Very imperfect. I'm thinking it may never be. I think I'm gonna finish this draft and begin work on the story boards.

Is this defeatism, or realism? I'm having a tough time with it. When do you guys move on?

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I would never go to the next stage until the script is ready. I know it's a pain to keep working on it but if you go to the next stage, then keep going, then keep going, soon you'll have made that movie with the imperfect script and the film will not be good enough.

I understand your impatience. I'm writing a script to direct myself and I have some money to do it. I just want to get to it and direct it and I know I can 'figure it out along the way' but it's just not smart.

I would say absolutely make sure the script is 'ready' before you move on. I agree getting some outside opinions (although I never agree on paying a script consultant) might be very good. Maybe people can give you ideas to push through the hard parts. If you don't have good people to review the script for you or a writer's group then try something like Zoetrope. Just to get fresh views.

Or take a week off and come back to it fresh. It's better to get it made 2 months later with a perfect script than 2 months earlier when it's not good enough.

I agree with Writing Fool. Step away. Write something else. Come back to it in a few weeks and you'll see things differently, maybe have a new perspective.

If you want to draw story boards, go for it. Hell, if you have that much talent use it. If I drew story boards all my scripts would look the same, two stick figures looking at each other with bubbles of dialogue over their heads.

Oh, and take GWG's offer for free script notes. Anytime you can get someone in the industry to give you free feedback, take advantage. And although you can never be 100% sure, from what I've read in the forum, GWG's prove to be a pretty stand-up, no nonsense dude.

And never, ever, ever give up. I don't care if you write 200 drafts. If you love the story, it's worth it.

razor

Scrap it.

16 drafts? One of two things is possible.
1. It's just a bad idea. Not stupid or dumb but simply an idea that doesn't lend itself to a 120page script. It's happened to me before.

2. It's a good idea but for whatever reason you're not ready for it.

Scrap it, work on something new, in a new genre. Get your head out of the troublesome script, complete something and then go back and look at your old script. Re-read it and then you'll know for sure if you should scrap it or if someone can actually be done with it.

Dont know how others feel about this, but the fact that youre keeping track of all your drafts might have alot to do with your lack of motivation.

That in itself can be demotivating -- I know I would find it alittle disconcerting if I did something 16 times, and couldnt get it right. Each number thereafter would be reminding me of what a grueling painsaking path this project has proven, and probably make me want to chuck the whole thing alltogether.
Who you keeping track for anyways?

Try motivating yourself instead.
You have a working draft, now youre fine tuning it all. Simple as that.

Stick to your outline, reread it, or better yet, have someone else read it for you. Go head get it critiqued.
Put it on Zoetrope, request people you trust give it a once over for you, or post it somewhere, to get the feedback that will prove invaluable to you, and save you more time and headaches then you have had after 16 tries.

As far as the past only 2 options -- Ill reiterate a third option -- ask for feedback. Youre brain has taken this as far as it might be able to go. Perhaps its just time to call in reinforcements.

Another thing to remember is that some stories simply aren't... well... stories.

This is hard to accept sometimes, and even the best writers fall in love with a concept they think could work, and push it hard.

Look at Lady in the Water. M Night Shamalamadingdong LOVED this story he wrote so bad, he jumped ship from the studio that had treated him right for 4 previous pictures to get it made when they told him it wasn't going to work.

It's not easy to let an investment of time and heart go, but sometimes you have to. Save the pages, save the ideas, save the characters. Maybe they'll find a home in a new story.

When you're just a storyteller... You can tell any story. But when you're a great storyteller you have to tell great stories. And the difference is in learning and discovering what makes which which.

Good luck to you.

Id say dont let anything go, until you have a worthy concensus that its not worth salvaging. Thats all Im saying.

Admittedly, a bit confused...

As someone who has laboured long and hard on his own projects over the years, I can appreciate wanting to press on, make progress, keep the momentum going...but I honestly don't get the 'storyboards' part. To be blunt, it strikes me akin to a novelist who's gone through a kajillion revisions on a longstanding manuscript effort and finally decides that he's going to stop with the typing and work on the jacket art and plan the book tour.

Am I missing something?

FYI

What might not be apparent from what's been said in this thread is that Shawn has adapted the screenplay from his own graphic novel, and may update the graphic novel as the screenplay changes and/or may develop this into subsequent projects. Hence the "storyboard" comment.

Sample pages and loglines were posted in the Screenwriting Critique Board forum previously, and the screenplay is currently in Share Your Work / Sci-fi/Fantasy forum: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35797

Here's a sample artwork page (link pasted from an old thread still in the Critique forum): http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Fuzzy_Modem/20060117.jpg

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.
Take the critiques you get with a grain of salt. Invariably, some of the critics will be kooks, bitter curmudgeons, or complete fools. ~odocoileus

Wow! That's impressive artwork. That's ShawnW's handywork?

How long does it to storyboard a script? Are there professional storyboarding services available? What do they cost?

Jerm said:

Wow! That's impressive artwork. That's ShawnW's handywork?

How long does it to storyboard a script? Are there professional storyboarding services available? What do they cost?

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It depends on whether the script is a short or a feature, obviously. The longer the script, the more time it takes to storyboard it. The more detail is wanted, the longer it takes (and by "detail" I mean individual panels).

Not everyone storyboards. Directors have traditionally used storyboards to think about shot and scene compositions, start with this angle, cut to this one, cut to that one, and end on the other one ... sorta deal. They really are a directorial tool I think. Most storyboards look not unlike comic books.

There are professional story board artists around the industry, not many but enough apparently to serve the needs of those who do not have sufficient graphics skills to do it themelves. I rather think these services are not inexpensive.

I could see a comprehensive storyboard (many panels) of a feature taking a month to do, perhaps longer.

Wow, I had read the intro to your script before shawn but I hadn't seen the artwork. Nice work! I've never seen a comic/GN look so realistic.

Jerm said:

Wow! That's impressive artwork. That's ShawnW's handywork?

How long does it to storyboard a script? Are there professional storyboarding services available? What do they cost?

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Storyboard artists are typically entry-level positions for individuals wanting to progress to a more established role in the world of visual effects. VFX companies put a high priority on hiring people who have excellent traditional drawing skills as well as their photographic or digital work. Although storyboarding is not as common these days thanks to computer-based pre-visualisation techniques, people who can draw well and take direction are always needed. It is also a wonderful position to have in terms of the amount of variety of people you are exposed to. A digital matte painter is likely to recive the majority of his direction from his VFX supervisor whereas a storyboard artist has a good chance of working closely with the director.

Many directors storyboard themselves; from the purely functional and low-end Ridley Scott "Ridley-grams" to the incredibly polished concept art of James Cameron.

Regarding the actual practical use of storyboards, in some cases they are absolutely essential. Think Monsters, Inc or Toy Story. Every single frame is drawn out because the film itself will be entirely created within the computer. Although some directors board out every scene of every film, the majority tend to save their more extensive boarding for complex action sequences. They serve as useful partners to the script in that they visualise exactly what is intended regards a car chase or shoot-out and are often used to communicate more effectively during the sub-contracting of visual effects to companies who are making bids.

As mentioned earlier, pre-visualisation is becoming the trend for high budget films these days. Pre-vis, for the uninitiated, is short animation, typically block people or objects, used to indicate a general feel for what will happen in a shot. They are usually done for shots and scenes that will be visual effects-heavy such as the tripod sequences in War of the Worlds or the battle scenes in Pearl Harbor, say.

Not only is pre-vis quicker and more responsive than laboriously drawing out shots by hand; there is also a huge opportunity for experimentation with camera placement and movement within a scene. Again, they also help VFX companies to identify exactly how to create the work they are being hired for.

Pre-vis is also great because producers can see the animation and intent of key sequences before green-lighting a film. They can also fill the holes in preview screenings where unifinished visual effects shots should go. Although the animations themselves are low-poly and kinda cheap looking, it's certainly better than having a title card with "Incomplete Scene," screaming at the audience.

Your artwork is superb, Shawn.

Goodwriterguy said:

There are professional story board artists around the industry, not many but enough apparently to serve the needs of those who do not have sufficient graphics skills to do it themelves.

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Not true! There are a million professional storyboard artists in the industry. Every cartoon show is storyboarded for instance. Have you ever seen how many cartoon shows there are? On Nickelodeon alone there's over a dozen.

Goodwriterguy said:

I rather think these services are not inexpensive.

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Not true! $80/panel is low end! $100/hr is low end!

clock_work9 said:

Storyboard artists are typically entry-level positions for individuals wanting to progress to a more established role in the world of visual effects. VFX companies put a high priority on hiring people who have excellent traditional drawing skills as well as their photographic or digital work. Although storyboarding is not as common these days thanks to computer-based pre-visualisation techniques, people who can draw well and take direction are always needed.

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Not true!! I know a lot of storyboard artists, my boyfriend is one, and none of them want to work in Visual effects! In fact, since the vast majority of storyboard artists work in 2D cartoons, there's no way they want to work in VFX.

clock_work9 said:

They serve as useful partners to the script in that they visualise exactly what is intended regards a car chase or shoot-out and are often used to communicate more effectively during the sub-contracting of visual effects to companies who are making bids.

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This is true! A lot of storyboard artists are highered in the pre-production stages, not only to have visuals during a pitch for money, but in order to budget FX. They'll create storyboards which will go out to different FX houses who will then give you a bid on how much they think it'll cost to make those effects.

clock_work9 said:

Not only is pre-vis quicker and more responsive than laboriously drawing out shots by hand; there is also a huge opportunity for experimentation with camera placement and movement within a scene. Again, they also help VFX companies to identify exactly how to create the work they are being hired for.

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Pre-Vis is not quicker! I've done pre-vis and animatics and they take longer than storyboards a lot of the time. At least it takes me longer to make a pre-vis than my boyfriend to draw a storyboard. Pre-vis is easy if cameras and characters aren't moving, but since you're usually doing vastly more complicated scenes it's a vastly more difficult bit of programming.

zeprosnepsid said:

Not true!! I know a lot of storyboard artists, my boyfriend is one, and none of them want to work in Visual effects! In fact, since the vast majority of storyboard artists work in 2D cartoons, there's no way they want to work in VFX.

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Well, I should have said I was commenting about films rather than 2D. There are people who board for films and are happy doing that but it is often treated as a kind of internship for progressing into vfx.

I left one word out which would have made it clearer. How about;

"Storyboard artists are typically good entry-level positions for individuals wanting to progress to a more established role in the world of visual effects."

I kind of ignored cartoons because I come from the digital/vfx background and I tend to forget that stuff. But yes, there are plenty of people who storyboard for a living be it cartoons or features.

zeprosnepsid said:

Pre-Vis is not quicker! I've done pre-vis and animatics and they take longer than storyboards a lot of the time. At least it takes me longer to make a pre-vis than my boyfriend to draw a storyboard. Pre-vis is easy if cameras and characters aren't moving, but since you're usually doing vastly more complicated scenes it's a vastly more difficult bit of programming.

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Detail is obviously a factor. It's quicker for me to pre-vis than to storyboard but that's probably because I feel more comfortable with the computer. Also, while I'm happy with just smooth and highlights in a pre-vis, I typically shade and agonise over the hand-drawn stuff to the point where it's not efficient for me to board at all!

I find pre-vis takes longer initially because you have to create the objects/characters/locations etc but once you have that stock material, I find shots can be rendered off way quicker.

I agree with WritingFool, I don't think anything is over until its over....Even if its put away, my guess is one day you will bring it out again.

Goodluck!