SF Tech question: Making Light of Heavy Things

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Ordinary_Guy

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Okay, manipulating gravity is a common staple of SF but I've read and heard a dozen different ways to write it.

Here's the question:
Is it "gravatic" or is it "gravitic"?

I've got theories but I'd like to hear what you folk think...

...While you're at it, feel free to ruminate on:
  • Do you think grav... tech will ever be created?
  • If so, when?
  • If so, what?
So pull up a floating chair and share your theories!
 

ChunkyC

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Ordinary_Guy said:
...While you're at it, feel free to ruminate on:
For a second there, I thought you said, "feel free to urinate on..."

Don't mind me, sometimes I don't sit close enough to the monitor.

Anyhoo ... I've seen "gravitic" used a number of times, but not "gravatic."

Personally, I don't know if gravity-based technology will ever be invented, because we still don't know if gravity is actually a force. One theory I've read is that space itself is deformed by objects with mass. For a crude analogy, think of a bowling ball on a trampoline. It bends the flat surface of the trampoline downward. Roll a marble around the bowling ball and it will change course and pick up speed as it gets closer.

In essense, the theory says that the moon (for example) is actually moving in a straight line through space, but space itself is curved in proximity to the Earth and so the moon moves around the Earth.

Now, HOW does mass deform space? One answer brings another question, and on and on the march of scientific discovery goes.... :)
 
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Ordinary_Guy

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ChunkyC said:
For a second there, I thought you said, "feel free to urinate on..."

Don't mind me, sometimes I don't sit close enough to the monitor.
Hey, it would take a real whiz kid to discover the answers...
ChunkyC said:
Anyhoo ... I've seen "gravitic" used a number of times, but not "gravatic."
I remember "gravatic" from way, way back – it got me in the bad[?]habit of saying it that way. Sometime later, it occurred to me that it might diverge too far from the "gravity" root word... but by then, I'd fallen out of the habit of reading SF so I didn't know what the current conventional wisdom was. Then I started to wonder if the "-atic" might lean more towards the "engineering of"... (sort of a linguistic bastage of "automatic").
ChunkyC said:
Personally, I don't know if gravity-based technology will ever be invented, because we still don't know if gravity is actually a force. One theory I've read is that space itself is deformed by objects with mass. For a crude analogy, think of a bowling ball on a trampoline. It bends the flat surface of the trampoline downward. Roll a marble around the bowling ball and it will change course and pick up speed as it gets closer.

In essense, the theory says that the moon (for example) is actually moving in a straight line through space, but space itself is curved in proximity to the Earth and so the moon moves around the Earth.
Yeah, that's a pretty popular theory.
ChunkyC said:
Now, HOW does mass deform space? One answer brings another question, and on and on the march of scientific discovery goes.... :)
That's the real trick. Could mass be manipulated? How does it interact with the other four forces? Is most of gravity tucked away in another dimension? Is there a carrier particle? Is the speed of gravity indeed the same as the speed of light or do we really have a clue yet?

Inquiring minds and all that, ya know?
 

ChunkyC

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Like pumping intellectual iron. Maybe someday my brain will have abs. :tongue

The 'carrier particle' or absence of same is the part that intrigues me. It would seem logical that if gravity was indeed a force, there would be a 'graviton', just as there's a photon for light and an electron for electricity. But so far, nada. So what the blankety-blank is gravity?

This does give us some leeway in our writing. Repulsors or gravity wave emitters become very reasonable pieces of bolognium. All we need do is make whatever we come up with internally consistent and away we go.

Hey, got a ? for ya ... if Star Wars uses repulsors, that means they push, right? So in the case of the big troop carriers in the Phantom Menace, they must push against the ground. Those things must weigh tons, so the amount of repulsive force must be enormous to keep them a foot or two off the ground.

So how come Qui-Gon and Jar-Jar weren't mashed to jelly by the force of the repulsors when that troop carrier drove over them?

Inquiring minds wanna know! :D
 

Ordinary_Guy

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ChunkyC said:
Like pumping intellectual iron. Maybe someday my brain will have abs. :tongue
That would be much cooler than what I've got... it seems all my brain accumulates is old tube sox.
ChunkyC said:
Hey, got a ? for ya ... if Star Wars uses repulsors, that means they push, right? So in the case of the big troop carriers in the Phantom Menace, they must push against the ground. Those things must weigh tons, so the amount of repulsive force must be enormous to keep them a foot or two off the ground.

So how come Qui-Gon and Jar-Jar weren't mashed to jelly by the force of the repulsors when that troop carrier drove over them?

Inquiring minds wanna know! :D
Great catch!

RetConning to the rescue: assuming it wasn't a blatant error, then I'd have to go with two different systems: a propulsion system (where the repulsors come in) and a lift system (which could be anything [most likely something gravitic]).
 

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ChunkyC said:
Hey, got a ? for ya ... if Star Wars uses repulsors, that means they push, right? So in the case of the big troop carriers in the Phantom Menace, they must push against the ground. Those things must weigh tons, so the amount of repulsive force must be enormous to keep them a foot or two off the ground.

So how come Qui-Gon and Jar-Jar weren't mashed to jelly by the force of the repulsors when that troop carrier drove over them?

Inquiring minds wanna know! :D

They, uh, had a Force field.

*hides*

I think it's gravitic, by the way, and so does the google corpus.
This is a simple trick. If you're wondering between words, type both into google search and see how many hits you get. I got:

[SIZE=-1]Results 1 - 10 of about 2,100 for gravatic.
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Results 1 - 10 of about 71,800 for gravitic. [/SIZE]

Also, check out the hits to see what they are.
 
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Ordinary_Guy

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Shweta said:
I think it's gravitic, by the way, and so does the google corpus.
This is a simple trick. If you're wondering between words, type both into google search and see how many hits you get. I got:

[SIZE=-1]Results 1 - 10 of about 2,100 for gravatic.
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Results 1 - 10 of about 71,800 for gravitic. [/SIZE]

Also, check out the hits to see what they are.
Interesting... Great methodology, too!

That makes "gravitic" what...? 34x more popular than "gravatic". At 2100 hits, the little guy'll still get recognized it seems, and both terms had google wondering if we meant to type "gravity" instead.

Gravatic's first ten hits was all SF (except for an Addidas shoe), while gravitic's first ten varied from SF to a technovelgy bit (looks like Asimov leans with an "i") to some guy's user name at "Deviant Art." Interesting cross-section there.
 

Shweta

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In google, 2000 hits is nothing. 78000 hits is minor recognition.
For perspective, I get:

Results 1 - 10 of about 129,000,000 for gravity
 

Pthom

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The "floating" space ships of Star Wars, Men in Black, Independence Day, Close Encounters, etc, are all great fantasy, but as ChunkyC says, the force needed to overcome the gravitational pull on such large objects by the immense mass of the planet is enough to not only squish anyone and anything beneath one, but would be enough to compact the soil to the density of rock. (Niven uses a similar notion in his novel "Destiny's Road.")

Gravity is an extremely weak force compared to the nuclear forces (strong, that holds the nucleus together; weak that holds molecules together). If it weren't, you could jump off the table and wind up in the cellar without causing any damage to either you, the floor or anything else in your path Think Robin Williams in "Jumanji"--and numerous episodes of Star Trek where some ensign or other is trapped in the floor when it goes out of "phase". Come to think of it, THAT (being out of 'phase') is probably a lot more fun to handle in a story than worrying about the absense of gravitons.

As for those things, I believe the string theorists think they might be onto how it goes. And we may be at a new threshold, similar to the one when it was disproven that light needs a medium (the ether) to propagate. Light only sometimes seems to have properties of particles. Other times, it behaves as pure energy waves ... and at other times a combination. Gravity waves, with or without gravitons, have been measured, and the effects of gravity can be readily seen doing bad numbers on light in the vicinity of black holes and neutron stars.

Yeah, we don't know what the stuff really is and, I think if you dig deep enough, physicists will admit they aren't all on the same page as to what electromagnetism really is. Mysterious forces indeed, but we sure do depend on them both.
 

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Shweta said:
In google, 2000 hits is nothing. 78000 hits is minor recognition.
For perspective, I get:

Results 1 - 10 of about 129,000,000 for gravity
True, 2000 hits isn't much more than the 1,490 you get for intentionally misspelling "gravity" with "grivity." But it's still something. Never say die, ya know?

129,000,000 is fluggin' huge... OTOH, that's every use of the word in every context from politics ("But the gravity of this indictment...") to aging ("The new support pants help you fight gravity!"). It would be interesting to set up a complex (boolean?) search that could narrow the hits to articles that reference strictly gravity: the force.
 

Ordinary_Guy

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I wondered if anyone was going to get this specific:
Pthom said:
The "floating" space ships of Star Wars, Men in Black, Independence Day, Close Encounters, etc, are all great fantasy, but as ChunkyC says, the force needed to overcome the gravitational pull on such large objects by the immense mass of the planet is enough to not only squish anyone and anything beneath one, but would be enough to compact the soil to the density of rock. (Niven uses a similar notion in his novel "Destiny's Road.")
Absolutely, assuming the mechanism of lift is a projected downward column. It would be the gravitic equivalent of sticking invisible wheels underneath your craft. Definitely a possibility for first-gen gravitics and likely something that would make engineering sense for vehicles never intended to get higher than a few feet of the ground (like "Hammer's Slammers" tanks, etc.).

OTOH, a lift "column" doesn't make much sense for a vehicle that's going to be achieving any sort altitude. Since we don't know the dynamics of gravity-manipulation, and really can't guess enough to disqualify any particular methodology, we have some room to play.

Here are three possibilities:
  • Field-emission "repulsors": any pushing force that doesn't propagate as a collimated beam. In other words, instead of a projector that pushes off the ground, you have a projector that interacts with the mass it's pushing from. Think in terms of modern, terrestrial rockets and it makes sense: a rocket pushing against the ground is only incidental (and even then, it's only for the first few moments [the thrust is actually ducted away from the launch pad]). The thrust of a rocket is really acting against the mass of the rocket that's creating it (that's why rockets work in a vacuum).

    If a repulsive, thrust-like gravitic system were to operate on a similar principle, chances are the "thrust fields" would be focusable, but generally rounded and short-range for the most potent effects, kinda like the way we see naturally-propating gravity behaving now (or, for alternate flavor, imagine gravity thrust following something to the lines of force generated by a magnet).
  • Attractors: a projected pulling force. Like an inverted (not reversed) rocket, such a device would pull instead of push. Think of a "tractor beam." Who knows, if gravitics (gravatics?) were ever to become possible, this might actually be invented first as it would simply be a form of synthetic gravity. You could use a couple of different analogies here for generating lift...

    The first that pops to mind is the upward pull of a helicopter rotor, pulling air down and using it generate upward thrust. Problem: the gravity part of the equation is muddied by aerodynamic concepts (Actuator Disk Vortex Theory, etc.), with upstream, slipstream and downstream concepts – though there could be similar field effects from gravity, depending on how the fields are generated.

    Maybe a better analogy would be a hot air balloon. There would be a force pulling "upward" – or rather, a force pulling a craft in the direction it wanted to go. In a gravity well, that would be "upward." Again, it would work in a vacuum as well because the force generated would be working against the mass creating it.
  • Nullifiers: A system used to counteract existing gravity, lowering the weight of a given mass. I'm sure somebody's had this idea before but I can't say that I've seen it anywhere. Imagine: instead of a projected field to create propulsive force, this would be an internal field to gravity-neutralize mass. Wrap your brain around it by picturing such a field in an earth-bound room. Everything within the room (inside the field effect generator) would be weightless. It would effectively be a zero-G room (with implications for terrestrial manufacturing, surgery, etc.).

    Now put a similar generator on a vehicle. Let's say your first model was potent enough only to result in a 25,000 lb. loss of gross vehicle weight (about a tenth of a loaded 747). How fast do you think these units would be installed on passenger jets? A 10% drop in weight would mean tremendous fuel savings and perhaps even a wider safety margin.

    Jam the same model onto, say, an HH-60 helicopter and suddenly your vehicle would be lighter than air. It could rise without a balloon and be propelled by little more than a three man flight crew and a bag of bean burritos.

    Also consider that by nullifying mass, you nullify internal momentum, meaning now you can conduct extraordinary evasive maneuvers without tearing the craft apart. I'll give somebody a big :Thumbs: if they can name what bit of modern mythology claims to see these effects already.
Pthom said:
...I believe the string theorists think they might be onto how it goes. And we may be at a new threshold, similar to the one when it was disproven that light needs a medium (the ether) to propagate. Light only sometimes seems to have properties of particles. Other times, it behaves as pure energy waves ... and at other times a combination. Gravity waves, with or without gravitons, have been measured, and the effects of gravity can be readily seen doing bad numbers on light in the vicinity of black holes and neutron stars.

Yeah, we don't know what the stuff really is and, I think if you dig deep enough, physicists will admit they aren't all on the same page as to what electromagnetism really is. Mysterious forces indeed, but we sure do depend on them both.
We do depend on them... but man, gravity means I'm on a perpetual diet, dang it.

As for the ether, that's an interesting bit as well – it's one of the rub points between quantum theory and classic relativity. The ether would be "Wheeler Foam" – the medium of "Zero Point Energy" – which is pretty spooky stuff. It's kinda fun to see quantum physicists duke it out cosmologists but the details are way over my head (I'm probably closer to "cosmetologist" than "cosmologist").
 

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Jam the same model onto, say, an HH-60 helicopter and suddenly your vehicle would be lighter than air. It could rise without a balloon and be propelled by little more than a three man flight crew and a bag of bean burritos.
:roll:

"Cap'n, we've got incoming!"

"Bring the Guacamole Drive online!"

"We can't, Cap'n."

"Drat! Why not?"

"We had Italian for lunch."
 

Shweta

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Ordinary_Guy said:
  • Nullifiers: A system used to counteract existing gravity, lowering the weight of a given mass. I'm sure somebody's had this idea before but I can't say that I've seen it anywhere. Imagine: instead of a projected field to create propulsive force, this would be an internal field to gravity-neutralize mass. Wrap your brain around it by picturing such a field in an earth-bound room. Everything within the room (inside the field effect generator) would be weightless. It would effectively be a zero-G room (with implications for terrestrial manufacturing, surgery, etc.).

I've seen something like this before, but I cannot for the life of me remember where. It was a long time ago. A short story, I think. Possibly either one of Heinlein's or one of Clarke's? Neither sounds right, but they're who I was reading at the time (maybe)...
 

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such a thing was postulated in "Close Encounters," actually. In the penultimate scene when they are about to meet the aliens for the first time, an announcement comes across the loudspeaker: "Be careful: there may be unexpected gravitational effects." (or something similar.)

As for helicopter roters pulling air down, I think that's a side effect. Each blade of a helicoptor rotor is a wing, moving at high speed through the air. It functions much as any wing by creating a differential air flow across the top and bottom surface--the end result being lower air pressure above the wing than below it, and that's why the machine rises. By the way, this technology may be of interest to the fantasy authors here: the property of wings was discovered a LONG time ago: the lateen boat sail works on the same principle.
 

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I'm sure I didn't see it in Close Encounters :D
 

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Pthom said:
such a thing was postulated in "Close Encounters," actually. In the penultimate scene when they are about to meet the aliens for the first time, an announcement comes across the loudspeaker: "Be careful: there may be unexpected gravitational effects." (or something similar.)
I have a vague memory of that bit. Cool scene.

The "unexpected effects" could definitely be a type of nulled-gravity field – one propagating outside the craft proper. OTOH, I'm sure smarter people could probably reverse engineer "unexpected effects" from just about any gravitic methods.
Pthom said:
As for helicopter roters pulling air down, I think that's a side effect. Each blade of a helicoptor rotor is a wing, moving at high speed through the air. It functions much as any wing by creating a differential air flow across the top and bottom surface--the end result being lower air pressure above the wing than below it, and that's why the machine rises.
Yeah, true.

There was just enough of a dynamic surrounding it that it didn't give the cleanest analogy... But, I suppose, just to be proper: there could be plenty of "unexpected" or peripheral effects around any sort of gravitational generator (kinda like the way you don't want to stand in front of jet engine, even when the thrust comes out the back).
Pthom said:
By the way, this technology may be of interest to the fantasy authors here: the property of wings was discovered a LONG time ago: the lateen boat sail works on the same principle.
Had no idea. I'll have to look that up. Did they really have a clue about the nature of lift back when... ever this boat sail was used? Or was it serendipity and they just hung on to it?
 

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So how come Qui-Gon and Jar-Jar weren't mashed to jelly by the force of the repulsors when that troop carrier drove over them?

Uh, because Phantom Menace sucked?
 

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It functions much as any wing by creating a differential air flow across the top and bottom surface--the end result being lower air pressure above the wing than below it, and that's why the machine rises.

That's a popular misconception, although for many years this was the accepted belief. There is a new model for flight theory, called the physical model, based on Newton's work, instead of Bernoulli's, which better explains and accounts for aspects of flight that the "lower air pressure" model does not.

I'll leave the experts to explain it more fully:

http://www.aviation-history.com/theory/lift.htm
 

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QX, Lensman!

THIS IS HELMUTH SPEAKING FOR BOSKONE.

E.E. "Doc" Smith's classic Lensmen series must be mentioned in a thread of this magnitude. The Bergenholm mass nullifier allowed vast ships to flit from star system to star system at translight velocities (up to 90 parsecs an hour!). When the ships deactivated their Bergenholms they passed from free to inert states and normal mass was restored. Careful calculations had to be made first since the ship also instantly resumed its former trajectory. This maneuver was usually executed in open space for safety reasons, and the ship would then land using convential thrusters (essentially big rockets).

TRANSMISSION ENDS.

-Derek
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Take the critiques you get with a grain of salt. Invariably, some of the critics will be kooks, bitter curmudgeons, or complete fools. ~odocoileus
 

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ChunkyC said:
Hey, got a ? for ya ... if Star Wars uses repulsors, that means they push, right? So in the case of the big troop carriers in the Phantom Menace, they must push against the ground. Those things must weigh tons, so the amount of repulsive force must be enormous to keep them a foot or two off the ground.

So how come Qui-Gon and Jar-Jar weren't mashed to jelly by the force of the repulsors when that troop carrier drove over them?

Inquiring minds wanna know! :D

If they worked by a backwards gravitational effect, they would affect things in proportion to their mass. So most of the force below them would be applied to the planet, and very little of it would actually affect soldiers below them. The biggest problem with that is that we have no evidence that such a negative gravity effect is possible.

Laurence Kraus had an interesting take on some of the trouble with large hovering objects. He noted that if the flying saucers in Independance Day stayed up by any sort of rocket power, jet engines, or other pressure-based propulsion, they would have crushed Washington, DC simply by flying over it without even bothering to fire their weapons.
 

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I think that, given time, we'll come up with something which operates along the lines of what we currently think of as anti-grav, in sci-fi novels. I do not, however, think it will have anything to do with actually being ANTI-gravity.

(how vague can I be? Pretty vauge apparently. This thread is fascinating, but I haven't read up enough on the subject in a while to offer an intelligent alternative to anti-grav. Sorry!)
 

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Interesting take on it...
MadScientistMatt said:
If they worked by a backwards gravitational effect, they would affect things in proportion to their mass. So most of the force below them would be applied to the planet, and very little of it would actually affect soldiers below them.
Seems reasonable.

This "backwards gravitational effect" would be dependent on the gravity well it's operating in (in this case, the planet below). The consequence: the power of the lift would drop dramatically as the force of gravity faded. Depending on sensitivity, such a craft would be virtually paralyzed outside a strong gravity well – in essence, making the gravitics float with dynamics akin to a balloon.

Could be fun to play with the idea, though it limits the SF to either LEO or really slow interplanetary travel (Earth to Mars Express, or similar). It might be fun writing about such a craft trying to break out of a planetary gravity well and the turbulence they endure as they transition to the stellar gravity well.

Might even be able to use it for really, really, really slow interstellar travel. Another fun plot point: aiming for the target system and having to aim straight for the star to decelerate (or some variation thereof). I could see potential for some high drama.
MadScientistMatt said:
The biggest problem with that is that we have no evidence that such a negative gravity effect is possible.
True – but that caveat covers half of gravitic technology (a third if we consider "nullification" it's own flavor). In a way, now that I think about it, the craft you describe modifying it's mass in proportion to the gravity well might actually lean toward "nullification" (though we're so deep in speculation right now that you could argue just about anything).

As for evidence of a "negative gravity effect": good news for SF writers. You could consider "dark matter/dark energy" (in the cosmological sense) as a possible hook. Dark Energy demonstrates a type of "negative pressure" – a repulsive force against gravity's attractive force. More than an enough ammunition for SF writers to co-opt it for their own.
MadScientistMatt said:
Laurence Kraus had an interesting take on some of the trouble with large hovering objects. He noted that if the flying saucers in Independance Day stayed up by any sort of rocket power, jet engines, or other pressure-based propulsion, they would have crushed Washington, DC simply by flying over it without even bothering to fire their weapons.
Potentially, yes – and that could apply to any type of propulsive gravitics as well, especially those that rely on suspending a craft a surface-based column of downward force. IIRC, the Martian invaders in "War of the Worlds" used that principle (the 1953 movie version, not original Wells story).

On the bright side, we really don't have a clue to how gravitic propulsion would actually work. When people think "thrust", they usually apply known rocket rules. With gravitics, though, it's a whole new paradigm: you're looking at field effect, possibly closer to how magnets generate magnetic fields. Imagine a gravitic "thruster" where equivalent mass flow rate was huge but velocity negligible. The decay of the field might be measured in feet... and on a dark night, those below would never know what was floating above.
 

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When you get down to it, in Star Wars, the spaceships all seemed to have rocket-like engines on the back for flying outside of a gravity well. And many of the things that levitated seemed to have some sort of jet engines for forward propulsion. As near as I can tell, the "repulsors" actually were useless outside of a gravity well.

And it's not like not knowing that such a thing is possible is an obstacle in science fiction. After all, that is very different from knowing that something is not possible. As the laws of physics stand right now, if you plugged a negative value for an object's mass into the gravity equations, you'd have a reversed gravity force... but what does a negative mass value mean, and would such an object behave backwards in other equations like F=ma?
 
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