Very personal medical stuff done to hero --too much?

bylinebree · Jul 17, 2006

OK, I have been going back and forth with this. In my research to base medicine/healing stuff on (and there's no "magick") I have found that in the old days (my story's an alternative early medieval), it was normal to shoot stuff up the back passage of a person.

Excuse me, to all the delicate. So my protag is terribly wounded and he can't swallow stuff, so they have to use this "route" for him. And the healer is a female he falls in love with...and how he deals with all this is related to his character growth, challenges, and so forth.

Do you think it's gross, over the top, unappealing, etc, to describe this in general terms? You know what they're doing, but not via specific anatomical terms.

dragonjax · Jul 17, 2006

I say, do what you have to do to tell the story. Skip the parts that aren't important/don't move the story forward. But if it's important, keep it. As Martha O'Connor says, "Write like there's noone watching."

Birol · Jul 17, 2006

If it serves the story, I don't think it's over-the-top.

My-Immortal · Jul 17, 2006

And here I thought you were going to tell us something had happened to Hero for Sale....LOL

If it moves the story forward, use it. If not, lose it.

Good luck with your writing.

Take care-

MattW · Jul 17, 2006

As others said - keep it if it fits, no matter what the reader may feel.

Are the societal taboos in place for him to feel shamed? Is the apearance of homosexuality frowned upon? Or is medicine practice common enough that it is unpleasant but accepted?

Make sure that the discomfort of a suppository isn't the only thing going on...

RedWombat · Jul 17, 2006

Well, that was a pretty common practice in a lot of societies. Heck, I've read that the Aztecs supposedly even made hallucinogenic suppositories out of toadskin! (Now there's a drug craze unlikely to catch on...) But really, there's only a couple of ways to get stuff into somebody who can't swallow. If it can't be powdered and blown up his nose...well...that only leaves one option.

Bear in mind that if you're badly wounded, there's a lot of embarassing bodily functions that your healer will be around for...somebody's gotta change the bedpans. So I think you'd have the option for character growth with him feeling vulnerable and helpless and exposed there even if you avoid the enema route. But hey, no reason not to. I recall reading at least one novel where the male love interest has to catheterize the comatose heroine, and despite being fairly amorous, declares repeatedly that that was not fun, that was not fun at ALL, he did not enjoy that, he doesn't want to ever do that AGAIN, and the awkwardness of the intimacy involved in medical procedures vs. the intimacy of--er--intimacy!--gets a definite nod. And while I remember it, the book is not branded in my mind as The One With The Catheter Scene.

So I'd go for it. You might not want to deliver a blow-by-blow account of the actual procedure, mind you, but there's no reason to gloss it over completely.

Shweta · Jul 17, 2006

bylinebree said:
Excuse me, to all the delicate. So my protag is terribly wounded and he can't swallow stuff, so they have to use this "route" for him. And the healer is a female he falls in love with...and how he deals with all this is related to his character growth, challenges, and so forth.

I find this interesting, because it's a salient part of your world that is not the same as ours. Edit: by this I mean the prevalence of suppositories, not the existence. I'm aware that they exist now too.
It's not sanitized ren-faire medieval. Apart from that... maybe I'm just repeating what everyone said, but I think you answered the question yourself. It's part of the story. Doesn't that make it necessary?

Just my 2p

HConn · Jul 18, 2006

Uncle Jim is a paramedic, and he's talked about popping a hard candy up the back door of a patient in trouble.

I say go for it.

bylinebree · Jul 18, 2006

HConn, Who is Uncle Jim? Didn't see a post from him on this.

Shweta, it's nice to know that this one scenario in my book won't make people think of it as The Book with the Enema Scenes. (ha)

Thanks for the input, it makes me feel a little less weird. I'm love medical stuff and worry sometimes that it may offend someone but hey -- we do need to silence that inner censor in order, as if no one is watching us.

I happen to like the scene because it teachs him some humility (he's a prince in a male-dominated society that's changing it's attitudes towards female healers) and that his physical strength isn't the most important thing about him (he can survive being dependent for a time and still maintain dignity)

He and the healer do come to a compromise when later he asks if someone else couldn't give him the medicine "that way" instead, and she allows that to take place, once she sees how he responds to the med. But if he fights it, she does it herself -- a good motivation for him to just go along with it and get well.

HConn · Jul 18, 2006

"Uncle Jim" is James D. Macdonald, creator of the "Learn Writing with Uncle Jim" thread on the Writing Novels forum.

bylinebree · Jul 18, 2006

I thought that's who you meant.

Ordinary_Guy · Jul 18, 2006

bylinebree said:
OK, I have been going back and forth with this. In my research to base medicine/healing stuff on (and there's no "magick") I have found that in the old days (my story's an alternative early medieval), it was normal to shoot stuff up the back passage of a person.

Excuse me, to all the delicate. So my protag is terribly wounded and he can't swallow stuff, so they have to use this "route" for him. And the healer is a female he falls in love with...and how he deals with all this is related to his character growth, challenges, and so forth.

Do you think it's gross, over the top, unappealing, etc, to describe this in general terms? You know what they're doing, but not via specific anatomical terms.

It's definitely gross but that's really the point, isn't it? He falls in love with the healer... but does she fall in love with him? Love Conquers All? Or is Love Conquers Most Butt Not That?

Is it too much for the novel? In concept, of course not – but it really depends on how you handle it, especially in the context of the tone of the rest of your book. If you're writing some serious, graphic, NC-17 blood/guts/lust... then go nuts. If not, gloss the details. You could even throw some humor in there and leave your audience all flushed. So to speak.

bylinebree · Jul 18, 2006

Ordinary_Guy said:
It's definitely gross but that's really the point, isn't it? He falls in love with the healer... but does she fall in love with him? Love Conquers All? Or is Love Conquers Most Butt Not That?

Is it too much for the novel? In concept, of course not – but it really depends on how you handle it, especially in the context of the tone of the rest of your book. If you're writing some serious, graphic, NC-17 blood/guts/lust... then go nuts. If not, gloss the details. You could even throw some humor in there and leave your audience all flushed. So to speak.

Butt Not That? Too funny. Love Conquers All? It's a more than that, but that is part of the solution -- they started something years ago but he ended up chosing her sister, and she's been trying to forget him. She's had to repress her feelings and other stuff is going on spiritually, too.
It's not NC-17, though, maybe a bit more like a less gory PG-13 to some R. And yes, there's some wry humor.

They only have privies and waste basins, so the flushing has to be epidermal, so to speak. Though I did see on the History Channel that the Romans had toilets that sat over water channels that "flushed away" -- and a sort of mop for cleaning themselves!

Fascinating... I think.

bylinebree · Jul 18, 2006

Innkeeper said:
Another medical solution might be to use an old folk remedy i.e. a hot mustard plaster.

Innkeeper: He's too feverish for a mustard plaster to help, but she does use a poultice to pull poisons out of one of his wounds -- a nasty one from an arrow. The poison makes him unable to hold anything down by mouth. The clyster (enema) helps fever, too, and directly acts on the poison in his gut. She's treated men after battle and seen alot.

In response to your other post, she doesn't speak much of the humors because alot of their medical theory is ahead of their time and comes from the East -- similar to our Asia/China. They don't believe in blood-letting because of their racial/spiritual beliefs, for their blood is sort of "sacred."

Their religion isn't shamanistic like you described, nor traditionally Medieval either w/ flogging and such. The hero goes through enough as it is, so I'm glad I didn't think of that stuff you suggested!

I'd tell you more, but then I'd have to -- you know.

Saanen · Jul 19, 2006

Keep in mind that medical personnel aren't squeamish about stuff most people would find icky or off-putting. Your healer probably won't think anything about administering an enema to anyone, even if it's a man she's got feelings for. It's just part of her job. Of course, it sounds like the man is the one who's finding it awkward. Very interesting tension you've set up; definitely keep it!

Can he not swallow or not hold anything in his stomach once he gets it down? If he just can't swallow, he might also be fed a liquid diet via a drench (that's what it's called for farm animals--not sure what the term is for people), where a tube is run down the throat to get medicine (or in this case, nourishment) into the patient. That might be a little too invasive for someone badly injured, though.

bylinebree · Jul 20, 2006

Saanen, thanks. Alas, they have not invented tubing for such things in this archaic-sort of world. They use metal syringes to administer things into orifices, not tubing. So the throat is out for sure.

The tension is complicated between them, but yes -- he gets mad at her about even being there to take over his treatment and care, since they ended on a bad note the last time they'd seen each other.

I suppose it's a little like falling in love with your doctor or nurse, but you've also known them a long time and both of you are evolving -- spiritually as well as romantically.

Thanks, I think & hope the tension does work between them. My readers thus-far have liked it alot and it pushed boundaries for me, as a person and writer.

Great feedback and suggestions.

Rabe · Jul 22, 2006

Saanen said:
Keep in mind that medical personnel aren't squeamish about stuff most people would find icky or off-putting. Your healer probably won't think anything about administering an enema to anyone, even if it's a man she's got feelings for. It's just part of her job.

This is true. Very true.

During my recent hospitalization, the nursing staff decided that I had become 'blocked' due to some medications they put me on (most of which involved inducing a coma). I, actually, felt it was more of a 'stage fright' kind of thing because after I woke up, and had the urge to use the bedpans, some new doctor would come in and talk to me and I would - uhm...clench up.

So, after a couple days of this, a nurse ( a pretty young thing that I did ask out ) decided to take matters - as they were - into her own hands. Or, rather, fingers. I'm mortified because it's not just her but this is a teaching hospital and apparently, this situation must have been a 'test question' because she brought what seemed like a classroom of people in to assist/observe. *sigh*

Even MORE mortified. But during the whole thing she spoke as if it were instructing on mathematical equations or pronouns.

BTW...the backdoor route is still very much in use in modern day...but not just for medicinal purposes but for festishes and drug/alcohol use as well. The thing of it is that intestines absorb a larger quantity of blood than the stomach, so the drug/alcohol gets into the bloodstream quicker and with a higher quantity (cause it's not partially digested by the stomach) giving a more intese high/drunk.

Rabe...
...full of - too much information...

bylinebree · Jul 23, 2006

Rabe, you have my sympathies. Glad you're out of a coma! My mom had a similar problem and it was awful for her, too. And the men I've talked to are either "stoic" about stuff like that, joke about it nervously, or really phobic and won't discuss it.

As for medical personell, they can be so clinical that, even if they are nice about it, you feel like you're just the 100th person they have done _____ to. I always let them know my feelings about: "OK...I know you've given lot of shots in the stomach like this, but this in MY FIRST ONE." (which was rather amusing because the male nurse doing this asked "where do I want it?" After saying it was an abdominal injection. As if I had a choice??)

So I had the female Healer be understanding but firm, and show her earlier as going through the process of becoming "professional" about her work, too. The prince...well, he is a composite of the male perspectives I mentioned above.

A little humor never hurts to get through these situations and at least slightly numb the indignity of it all.

Btw...shots in the abdomen not recommended, ouch. If any choice given, take it in the arm!

Rabe · Aug 5, 2006

bylinebree said:
A little humor never hurts to get through these situations and at least slightly numb the indignity of it all.

Yes, humor is a good thing. Even though I couldn't speak or make any type of vocalizations at the time to object to what was happening, I did quickly proclaim the nurse as "Fingers" and created this little sign language skit about how I'm an innocent little rabbit and she's the Big, Evil Finger Monster coming to get me.

Of course, I did later ask her out. She thought that was 'cute'.

Rabe...

Click to expand...

Jamesaritchie · Aug 5, 2006

Innkeeper said:
Another medical solution might be to use an old folk remedy i.e. a hot mustard plaster. This plaster is made from ground mustard seeds, oil, and vinegar. It's supposed to make the skin feel warm and help with breathing.

It does. My folks are all Appalachian Mountain people, and I had hot muster plasters several times as a kid.

maestrowork · Aug 5, 2006

Why not? If it serves the story and it can be powerful. Besides, there are all kinds of medical stuff that makes a common man wince.

bylinebree · Aug 8, 2006

Well, I'm keeping it in though it's been revised a couple of times -- actually is more "graphic" than what I originally wrote. A reader plied me with questions until I explained what was meant there, and she said 'then just say that so we don't have to guess so much!'

So I did.

The mustard plaster I know of, but won't work in this case -- he doesn't need more heat, he needs less. But thanks anyway.

J. Weiland · Aug 12, 2006

Nothing wrong in exploring anatomy in writing, though one should of course consider the genre.

bylinebree · Aug 13, 2006

J. Weiland said:
Nothing wrong in exploring anatomy in writing, though one should of course consider the genre.

I guess you mean, for example, that a romance might limit how much "stuff" a hero might endure -- maybe making him "less heroic" or something? Or that it might be, say, more acceptable in SF/F to have quirky medical scenes?

Can you elaborate more on this, JW?

J. Weiland · Aug 14, 2006

bylinebree said:
I guess you mean, for example, that a romance might limit how much "stuff" a hero might endure -- maybe making him "less heroic" or something? Or that it might be, say, more acceptable in SF/F to have quirky medical scenes?

Can you elaborate more on this, JW?

I meant there is a restriction on the types of words you might use when writing fantasy as compared to writing erotica or pornographic stuff.
I guess you should aim at not sounding too vulgar since it is fantasy you are writng. I have no problem with a hero getting his intestants explored by a doctor. He probably goes to the bathroom too once in a while.

Very personal medical stuff done to hero --too much?

Still Seeking the Dream

I write stuff and break boards.

Around and About

Mr. Invisible

Company Man

Runs With Scissors

gone

Whore for genre

Still Seeking the Dream

Whore for genre

Still Seeking the Dream

Industrial Strength

Still Seeking the Dream

Still Seeking the Dream

Still Seeking the Dream

the living dead

Still Seeking the Dream

the living dead

Fear the Death Ray

Still Seeking the Dream

Lurker

Still Seeking the Dream

Lurker