Usage of the "f-word" and its variations

Probably too much . . . is it appropriate for the time, the characters and the instance?

I am more conservative than others but John Grisham and Michael Crichtons later books disappointed me because the increased use of this word. It's like they forgot their vocabulary and just decended into using it in every other sentence.

I don't know about their most recent books I stopped reading their books about 6 years ago because of this.

Also you may want to check your manuscript length, most common accepted/wanted is around 100k which is about 400 pages if in proper manuscript formatting, which is Courier 12 double spaced (or nearly) 25 lines per page and 1 inch margins all around. So keep that in mind when you are trimming your manuscript, there are some who want a bit longer, but check out your target publisher/agent and see what their guidelines say.

I have read a few publisher and agent sites that want it used as little as possible, some come to expect it, it really depends on your target audience, the why, and the how. I know Frey got his book rejected when he was trying to sell it as fiction for excessive language and violence and such. Then he slapped a non-fiction label on it and got it sold for what turned out to still be fiction.

I might be too much but on the other hand, I've read books that should have used it and didn't. There's definitely a time and a place for it...I mean, face it, it's a word that people use and in a war novel it might not ring true if you never use it.

How's that for a non-answer?

When one of my friend's got her first book published was her mother thrilled at this amazing success?

Hardly--she went through it counting how many times the F-word appeared.

I admire that you've saved some old lady all that effort by doing it ahead of time.

Perhaps you can count how many times Stephen King uses it. I stopped reading his stuff after Christine. Not 'cause he used the word, but because every single character in the book, no matter what age, gender, or life experience, used it. They all spoke exactly the same way. That got old fast.

Good luck with yours. Heck, I hope I get to read it.

drevil915 said:

Yeah I think so, but I'm still kinda worried about it.

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OK. Is it the best word? If it's the best word, keep it, if it doen't have to be there, kill it.

That's true of most such things; if it's not doing something in a sentence, something you want to do, if it's not the best way, then kill it.

Heh. As a reader, I can go through about a half dozen F-bombs before I think, "Meh. Next!"

You're saying you have one every 1 1/2 pages...too much for this reader.
Read through "Self-Editing for Fiction Writers" and then tell me that the last line of page 206 doesn't kick your asterick.

For me, as a personal real-life F-bomber, I can fill in the blanks. Don't assault your clean-mouthed readers with too much profanity. Even though I like to say it (occasionally), I dislike seeing it in print. Weird, eh? When in doubt, cut it out.

Being a war novel, such language is natural and, well, expected.

However, the more you use it, the more diluted its meaning becomes. To let the word actually have the impact it needs for more serious/pertinent scenes, try to trim it down in casual conversation or in other areas where tensions may not be as high.

I don't know about soldiers, but among sailors it's used so much that it does lose it's meaning.

Norman Mailer, in The Naked and the Dead, used "fug" (on the grounds that it was closer to the sound the soldiers made, and to show that the word had lost its power among them. (Plus, when he was writing, getting a book with the real word in it would be tougher than right now.)

I used the word a lot in one of my novels -- to show differences in social class and levels of stress.

Like any word: hold a pistol to its head and make it justify its presence.

I have a couple chapters in my WIP where the F-word is used. 5-6 times in one scene alone. However, it's used by a crazed man who has kidnapped the MC and is now surrounded by police. I didn't think he'd say.. "Oh, golly gosh... the doggone police!"

I'm not much for profanity but if it is appropriate to the scene and character it has to be used.

brianm said:

I have a couple chapters in my WIP where the F-word is used. 5-6 times in one scene alone. However, it's used by a crazed man who has kidnapped the MC and is now surrounded by police. I didn't think he'd say.. "Oh, golly gosh... the doggone police!"

I'm not much for profanity but if it is appropriate to the scene and character it has to be used.

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I agree. Some of the characters in my WIP use it. The MC does not.

I remember being told in a book about writing that profanaties jar us much more in a book than they would in real life, and I think that's true. So I think it's good to keep them to the minimum, perhaps even less than the real-life soldiers would use them. But of course soldiers are going to use profanities so they need to be in there - but as few as possible, I suggest. As other posters have suggested, if they're used in moderation they'll have more impact.

I'm surprised by a few of the replies. OK, not everyone likes or uses bad language but shouldn't you put aside your tastes and look it from the point of the view of the characters? If they use bad language because of who they are and if it fits, then what's the problem?

I think a lot here are right - it depends on the person and place etc. For instance a british upper class woman having tea is hardly going to come out with the f-word, or any other profanity. However a soldier will probably use it, particularly if its set when conscription occurred as the middle/lower class were quite often conscripted. I also think again depending on who the person is talking to eg a man might say it to his mates, but wont use it in front of a female. In war it would be used, particularly if, for instance, a soldier is shot in the leg, hes not going to say "blimey that hurts" he's more likely to swear. Redgum's I was only 19 "Then someone yelled out "Contact"', and the bloke behind me swore." shows how it might be used.

Hello Jason,
Is it too much for a military setting? No, probably not. Been there, done that. Is it too much for a readership? That depends on who your target audience is. Old timers and vets will be okay with it. Kids who love war stories will get through it. I don't recall any military personnel complaining about profanity, and I never heard anyone substitute f*** with "Oh, pshaw!" Saying that, have some beta readers look read for you. Don't mention your concerns and see if you get any red flags.

I should mention too that my military service was Viet Nam era. Perhaps the Marines have gotten daintier over the years.

drevil915 said:

Hi everyone, I'm in a bit of a problem here. I'm finishing up my novel and throughout it, the f-word and its variations are used a total of 324 times. It is a war novel, so much of the swearing is necessary, I think, for the realism and such for the characters. However, do you think that this is too much? I mean, 324 is a huge number when looked at, but laced throughout a 500+ page manuscript, I think it's more dilluted. On the other hand, the word can be very effective in showing an emotion, but used so much, it loses it's importance.

What do you think? Am I risking losing readers by the amount the word is used?

Thanks,

-Jason

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I think it would be even odder, in a sense of pulling me out of the story, if these guys, soldiers, DIDNT use profanity.

Also bear in mind when the story is set. Which war, which countries, etc.

As the big guy said above. If it doesn't serve a purpose, shoot it.

I had a problem with profanity in my WIP. It didnt feel right, but it didn't feel right dropping it all.
Then I read a Vonnegut book in which he says that using bad language gives the other person an excuse not to listen. And with this book, I really want people to listen, so i toned it down, and will no doubt do so, to the extreme, in the edits and rewrites.

drevil915 said:

Hi everyone, I'm in a bit of a problem here. I'm finishing up my novel and throughout it, the f-word and its variations are used a total of 324 times. It is a war novel, so much of the swearing is necessary, I think, for the realism and such for the characters. However, do you think that this is too much? I mean, 324 is a huge number when looked at, but laced throughout a 500+ page manuscript, I think it's more dilluted. On the other hand, the word can be very effective in showing an emotion, but used so much, it loses it's importance.

What do you think? Am I risking losing readers by the amount the word is used?

Thanks,

-Jason

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Jason

It's a real word used by many people everyday in increasing numbers. If the word is used in context within your novel in a realistic way then I would leave the word as is. Some genres shy away - or even avoid completely - the use of the f-word but your ovel does not seem to fit within those genres. Whether or not to use the f-word in my writing is a quandary I solved long ago - I use it when the character speaking would use it. I don't overuse the word but I'm not afraid to use it either.

And, if it's a real problem, it's one that an editor will address when the time comes so until then, I would stick with what felt right for the characters and divil take the hindermost.

I think it's important to remain true to your characters. If your characters would swear, they should. If they wouldn't, they shouldn't. Don't go counting swear words and think, "Oh no, too many". Just follow the wishes of your characters.

I'm retired military, and I can honestly say I never heard as much profanity in my entire career as you hear on one episode of the Sopranos, so it's a modern phenomenon.

I recall reading an article many years ago in Argosy magazine. The author's father heard him say a curse word in public, so he made the author sit down and make a list of every curse word he knew. Then the father added a bunch that the kid didn't know. He encouraged the kid to use them whenever possible, and told him it made him sound so intelligent and grown up. The point was made.

In my personal case, my father would have washed my mouth out with soap if I resorted to profanity around him. He was a highschool educated farmer and carpenter, not a deacon in the church. He wasn't even religious, and neither am I, but he felt there were enough words to describe a situation without going into the gutter to find them.

I won't tell anyone what words they should use in any situation, but if you use them in the presence of my wife or daughter, expect to be called on it. If I scan the pages of a book and see nothing but garbage language, I put it back on the rack. That's just a personal opinion, and I'm sure it's not a common one, but just because you heard one soldier swear, don't assume that they all do it, or that it's necessary to fill your book with the f-word before people will read it.

My novel has some mild cursing in it, but it reflects the level my generation used, nothing like what you hear today. As someone who writes things for others to read, I believe I have a small degree of responsibility to help raise the level of civility in our society, and I try to do it.

Words are tools, you have to use the right ones to build the story properly or it will fall apart. No word should be off limits if it serves the work but every word has to have a reason for being what it is, where it is. Every word should move the story, convey character, tweak the conflict, aid resolution, make the reader believe.

When you use a word repeatedly or use it for multiple characters it (usually) dilutes the purpose.

One way to think about cursing is character by character and not bow to a stereotype. And when applied to the character - what does the word convey? Consider using a different word to convey fear than you use to convey anger (which can prove interesting when the character things he is showing anger but uses his fear go-to word). Consider using other words that show connection to internal motivation (personal history, goals, what have you). The F-word is a forceful word so someone who determines never to feel powerless might actually use it more than someone who feels they hold all the cards and cannot be challenged, they might use (I'm not sure what get by on the bb in terms of "masked vulgarities" as AOl calls them) but he might use the more descriptive word for shoot, because he wants to convey contempt, not force. Lots of curse words out there, your job as the writer is to consider why your character uses one and not the other. (I bet if you list your characters you could do this in a matter of seconds)

Just some things to mull over. 324 times would seem to me by overkill as a kind of telling, not showing. They swear. We got it.

annie jones (Sisterhood of the Queen Mamas - Dec 06)
Luanne Jones (Heathen Girls, out now and in mass market paperback Jan 07)

I'm writing a war novel and have no profanity in it--which we deliberately left out. I've also been told by someone (book unseen) that's not a "realistic" portrayal of soldiers. Except that both co-writer and I were soldiers, and we were both in wars. The comment came from someone who had never had been in the military, so he assumed that's what's all soldiers do and that a writer should have a liberal use of profanity to show this person is a soldier. But there are other elements that are part of being a soldier, and if those are in the story, then it will be realistic (and besides, not all soldiers swear).

From the reader's perspective, I haven't particularly cared for the use of profanity. I think I wouldn't mind it if there was a clear reason in the story why it was there, but too many writers just seem to toss one in because they can rather than thinking about how to use it effectively.

But would your audience care one way or another? Maybe, maybe not. I have read some military thrillers, and I rarely see profanity in them--but they are still very military. However, I do think it is worthwhile to do a review from the writing perspective and see if each instance is necessary. That way, when the word does get used, its impact isn't blunted by all the other uses.

Why not have one character use something else, like the 'frack' of Battlestar Galactica?

Not everyone swears the same way, and some people go silent under pressure instead of breaking out in profanity.

Kim

You all know swearing is big and clever. And it impresses girls.