Ahhhhhh . . . Agents and Preemptive Manuscript Submission

Baelphol · Jul 12, 2006

How's everyone doing?

I am deep (400+) pages into an unedited mess of Mythological Horror-Fantasy . . . or whatever genre a sane editor will label it.

My question:

I am thinking about quitting my "Day Job" (Speech Writer/odd job doer) in order to focus on my novel. I spend 10+ hours daily working on the thing as it is -- but this thing is consuming me and I want to devote a mind without too much distraction toward its completion.

Does anyone here know if a literary agent can secure an advance for a potential novelist based on the standard 3 chapter + outline submission? I have not contacted an agent yet -- promised myself I wouldn't until this mess thing resembling a novel is finished -- a rough draft anyway.

So anyone know anything relevant or funny or sarcastic pertinent to my wierd question?

Thanks

Baelphol

maestrowork · Jul 12, 2006

How brilliant is it?

Can you live without your day job for an extensive period of time?

veinglory · Jul 12, 2006

On a purely personal basis I would advise against giving up any income you need to pay bills until another source of income is secured and coming into your bank account.

Baelphol · Jul 12, 2006

maestrowork said:
How brilliant is it?

Can you live without your day job for an extensive period of time?

Eh? I've fasted to write before -- just not for as long as the year I've been writing this thing.

Brilliant? Writing fiction is . . . for me . . . therapy. If someone is nuts enough to pay me for it . . . well

victoriastrauss · Jul 12, 2006

Baelphol said:
Does anyone here know if a literary agent can secure an advance for a potential novelist based on the standard 3 chapter + outline submission?

If you don't already have a track record as a published novelist? No. Established writers can do this. If you're a first-timer, you not only have to prove your work is marketable, you have to prove you can finish. Get it done. Then look for an agent.

Even if you do eventually get picked up by a publisher, odds are you still won't be able to quit your day job. Writing is not a lucrative trade, and most novelists don't make a living at it.

- Victoria

maestrowork · Jul 12, 2006

What I mean was:

- if it's not brilliant, chances are no one would pay you an advance for just the first 3 chapters

so... since you can't get an advance to live on....

- can you live without your day job, still have enough money?

Baelphol · Jul 12, 2006

Yeah I can sqeeze by. If I don't do something . . . some of these characters I've written are going to leap off the page and spit me on a lance spear -- really

Okay . . . the thing is something singular and unparalleled . . . brilliant? I never could tell if I looked good in the mirror -- always had to ask someone.

NeuroFizz · Jul 12, 2006

Here is a sports analogy that I think may be in the ballpark. The odds of an unpublished author landing a good agent with a first book is about the same as a high school athlete landing a full-ride scholarship at a Division I university. The odds of that first book then making a decent advance, or producing decent sales would be the same as that high school athlete being drafted after college and making the squad of a professional sports team. The odds of that first book making it big would be similar to that of our high school athlete making the all-star team in his first year of professional competition. Lottery tickets aren't too far off in the odds department if you consider the various levels of lottery wins (from a few dollars on up).

And remember, if you intend to write to support yourself, you had better have one novel coming after the other--a continuous pipeline to ensure a steady flow of income. Many full-time writers have several avenues of for-profit writing. The life is as busy as it is rewarding according to some of those here who have addressed this in other threads.

Oh yeah. These odds assume the novel is finished and polished before the initial submission. What do you intend to pre-empt with your query-plus-three submission? If the agent likes it, she/he will ask for the full manuscript, and nothing will happen until that is read.

Baelphol · Jul 12, 2006

NeuroFizz said:
Here is a sports analogy that I think may be in the ballpark. The odds of an unpublished author landing a good agent with a first book is about the same as a high school athlete landing a full-ride scholarship at a Division I university. The odds of that first book then making a decent advance, or producing decent sales would be the same as that high school athlete being drafted after college and making the squad of a professional sports team. The odds of that first book making it big would be similar to that of our high school athlete making the all-star team in his first year of professional competition. Lottery tickets aren't too far off in the odds department if you consider the various levels of lottery wins (from a few dollars on up).

And remember, if you intend to write to support yourself, you had better have one novel coming after the other--a continuous pipeline to ensure a steady flow of income. Many full-time writers have several avenues of for-profit writing. The life is as busy as it is rewarding according to some of those here who have addressed this in other threads.

I do write to support myself -- speeches for lobbyists.

UrsusMinor · Jul 12, 2006

Most agents will hunt you down and kill you if they find you have sent them a partial of an incompete work.

Even if it IS brilliant, the days of forking over money for fiction on the basis of partials or outlines is long gone, unless you are King, Grisham, etc, in which case you can get an advance for a title. Hell, a tentative title.

(How many agents say they want to see a fiction 'proposal'? This was a real concept once upon a time...like in the 1970s or so. No more.)

Some masterworks of literature were stomped on with both feet by editors (see the great book "Rotten Reviews and Rejections"). For my part, I think "Lolita" is one of the monuments of English prose, but one editor wrote: "I am most disturbed at the thought that the writer has asked for this to be published...I recommend that it be buried under a stone for a thousand years."

My point is, even if you have written a work of absolute genius, don't count on the industry to stand up and salute, much less send you money. Van Gogh was a genius, and he nearly starved to death; sold a total of one painting in his lifetime, to the sister of a friend.

NeuroFizz · Jul 12, 2006

Baelphol said:
I do write to support myself -- speeches for lobbyists.

But didn't you say you were going to give that up? I think there is a huge difference between these two writing venues.

Baelphol · Jul 12, 2006

UrsusMinor said:
Even if it IS brilliant, the days of forking over money for fiction on the basis of partials or outlines is long gone, unless you are King, Grisham, etc, in which case you can get an advance for a title. Hell, a tentative title.

(How many agents say they want to see a fiction 'proposal'? This was a real concept once upon a time...like in the 1970s or so.)

Some masterworks of literature were stomped on with both feet by the editors (see the great book "Rotten Reviews and Rejections"). I think "Lolita" is one of the monuments of English prose, but one editor wrote: "I am most disturbed at the thought that the writer has asked for this to be published...I recommend that it be buried under a stone for a thousand years."

My point is, even if you have written a work of absolute genius, don't count on the industry to stand up and salute and send you money. Van Gogh was a genius, and he nearly starved to death on many occasions.

Thank you for the altruistic advice, LittleBear

It is as I thought. H.P. Lovecraft is an object lesson of your point.

Take Care,

Baelphol

blacbird · Jul 12, 2006

Baelphol said:
So anyone know anything relevant or funny or sarcastic pertinent to my wierd question?

Yes. Numerous sarcastic things.

caw.

Baelphol · Jul 12, 2006

blacbird said:
Yes. Numerous sarcastic things.

caw.

Caaw-whoooooh-whooooh.

jackie106 · Jul 12, 2006

Baelphol,

Is it possible to take a leave of absence rather than quitting your job?

Jackie

Baelphol · Jul 12, 2006

jackie106 said:
Baelphol,

Is it possible to take a leave of absence rather than quitting your job?

Jackie

My work is highly demanding and I doubt the boss would enjoy revelation of my intent to actually take more than an inane credit for something I've written beyond his political ken.

Good suggestion though. Thanks

blackbird · Jul 12, 2006

One avenue you might want to explore is that of obtaining a grant or a residency. Sometimes these are available for writers so that they can be supported while completing a particular project. Competition is pretty steep, though, and you would have to have a sizeable amount already completed, as well as a definite outline, proposal and timetable for the project (in other words, they like to know the project can be completed in the time they give you).

This is really the only option I know of whereby a writer can obtain financial support in order to write full-time. Otherwise, you will just have to suck it up and continue to balance the novel and the day job, or else get a very understanding spouse who's willing to foot the bill until your ship comes in.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 12, 2006

There's an expression that fits this situation perfectly, I'm just having trouble remembering what it is. Hmm. It's right there on the tip of my tongue. It's often said sarcastically, but in this case it is meant as sincere advice. Now what was it?

Oh yeah!

Don't quit your day job.

Kristen King · Jul 13, 2006

Baelphol said:
My work is highly demanding and I doubt the boss would enjoy revelation of my intent to actually take more than an inane credit for something I've written beyond his political ken.

If you want to take a leave of absence, it's none of the boss's business what you do with that time.

However, the idea of someone quitting his or her job to work on what you describe as "an unedited mess of Mythological Horror-Fantasy . . . or whatever genre a sane editor will label it" makes me nervous. I don't care about "Mythological Horror-Fantasy," but I do worry about the whole idea of 400+ pages of an "unedited mess." Are you really ready to do this full time?

You're putting your work (and yourself) down when you refer to it as a "mess." "Singular and unparalleled" could be a good thing, but not when someone would have to be "nuts" to pay you for it. If you don't 100% believe that you can and will do this, it's not going to happen. Just make sure you're in the right place before you take a leap.

What I'm hearing from your posts is that you simply may not be ready to make this change yet. Writing is therapeutic for many people, but it's also a business. If you're not ready to treat it as a business, then it might be good to go with the "therapy" aspect of it until that's run its course, and then quit your job to focus on the business end: revising, perfecting, and selling.

Kristen

AnnMB · Jul 13, 2006

Baelphol said:
Does anyone here know if a literary agent can secure an advance for a potential novelist based on the standard 3 chapter + outline submission? I have not contacted an agent yet -- promised myself I wouldn't until this mess thing resembling a novel is finished -- a rough draft anyway.

With regard to fiction, most agents won't even consider a query unless the ms. is completely finished. Even then, getting an agent for first novel with no authors credentials is no picnic (unless you're famous already, like Jimmy Buffet or Oprah Winfrey). For a first novel, any "advances" you get are not going to be any great shakes (expect $1,000 to $ 5,000), and probably not enough to live on for any length of time.

Unless you are a best-selling author, I would be EXTREMELY wary of any agent who wants to give you any kind of advance on an unfinished novel--red flags should go up all over the place. It just doesn't happen--at least not in this day and age.

IMHO, unless you are independently wealthy or have a spouse who will support your addiction (like me), then I would not suggest quitting the day job just yet!

Katiba · Jul 13, 2006

Also, remember that even if you get an agent right away - fairly unusual but not impossible - and even if she/he does't want any revisions - unlikely, since you've called it a 'mess thing' - they still have to shop it around to publishers. Even if there's tons of interest and it goes to auction, this still usually takes a little time. But say you got a pre-empt offer from the very first publisher your agent submits to and you take it. There's still the time between agreeing to the offer and actually signing the contract, and the time between signing the contract and getting the first part of your advance. There's a thread somewhere about how soon after signing the contract people get paid, and there seems to be a very wide variety - but you have to count on at least a month or two between the offer and the contract, and at least another 6 weeks after that before you actually see a check. So I'd say, for a first time author, if everything went absolutely positively perfect (and you can imagine the odds against that!), you'd still be looking at a good three months, absolute minimum, before you actually saw any money. And that's only if you had the most incredible luck imaginable.

Ahhhhhh . . . Agents and Preemptive Manuscript Submission

Baelphol

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Baelphol

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Baelphol

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

Baelphol

UrsusMinor

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

Baelphol

blacbird

Baelphol

jackie106

Baelphol

blackbird

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

Kristen King

AnnMB

Living in a Dream World

Katiba