YA Word Counts - Hope Over 60K?

RainbowDragon · Jul 12, 2006

A few questions about word counts:

I'm reading conflicting information from various sources about exact word-processor counts vs. the 250/page method. Which is really the standard, and why, and which and how many sources back that up, or can/should queries/submissions just include both?

Also, does anyone have a listing of publishers or agents who are open to if not actively seeking YA novels over 60,000 words? I notice in the Children's Writer's and Illustrator's Market that Tor books shows an average from 60-100K, but many others show averages around 40-60K and some show maximums in the same range.

How much of an obstacle is it to first-novel publication if your YA book is in the 60-80K range, and how can a writer sidestep any initial reluctance to get the manuscript read and seriously considered? Presumably, if an editor or agent falls in love with it, length won't stand in the way (though editing suggestions might be an issue if cuts are demanded). But they have to read it first!

Thanks in advance for all your thoughtful responses.

cuteshoes · Jul 12, 2006

I'd like to know too. My YA WIP is going to fall around 75k before editing, which hopefully will bring it back down to 70k. The protags are 14 year old girls.

zeprosnepsid · Jul 12, 2006

I think there is no right answer to this question. Opinions and Publishers differ quite widely on the topic.

Check out this thread to see people politely disagree: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12184

I think it's best just to write the best novel you can, although I'd certainly keep it under 80k! And then see what publishers will take a novel of that size.

Tish Davidson · Jul 12, 2006

However after the success of the Harry Potter series, I think publishers are not as automatically turned off by long books as they may have been in the past.

Bryan Reardon · Jul 13, 2006

Although I cannot give advice, I can tell you that I wrote my manuscript as adult sci-fi and decided at the last second to market it to YA agents. It was 80,000. So far, no one has told me to shave any off. In fact, the edits I received from my agent this week had me adding not taking away. The one thing I never did, though, was include my wordcount in the query. But I noticed in Ginger Clark's post that it is important to her.

Lavendar · Jul 13, 2006

Has anyone offered a submission to a publisher without an agent? I don't know if I'm ready for an agent. My YA ms has been submitted and am now waiting for a reply. Does anyone know of any publishers who excepts short stories? The publishers I pull up on the net are just book stores.

Christine N. · Jul 13, 2006

10-13 is what's called "middle grade". YA is usually 14 or 15-18. Many true YA books are actually on the longer side, so 80K for a real YA is fine. Now, my first book, a middle grade fantasy, was around 50K, I think the one that went to print was 49 something. My next book, as it stands now, is 67K, which will probably be closer to 63-65 once my editor finishes his butery,uh, I mean editing

This being my second book, since my first book was well-received, being longer is not a problem.

A first novel by an unknown, it's always better to err on the side of shorter. The first HP novel was around 80 something I think, and fantasy does tend to run longer, as do British submission standards, I think. Her books got longer in the series, and the publisher let her, because she was a proven seller, blah, blah blah. But Chamber of Secrets was almost the same length as SS, I think. They were close anyway. She wasn't blockbuster until after the third book.

Middle grade is GENERALLY 40-60K... but.... a) fantasy is usually given a little leeway, and b) a really fabulous book will sell no matter how long it is.

RainbowDragon · Jul 15, 2006

Thanks

Thanks everyone for your input. Mine came out to low 70s, and the first hand-written agent rejection I got said the voice/tone is more for younger (middle-grade I suppose she means) readers yet the length for older. Of course she only read the very beginning, and it's intended for about ages 10 and up, (13-14 y. o. especially, as the protag is about 15 when the story really gets going--I read somewhere on here to subtract 2 from his/her age to figure the "target" readership), and rife with high school level vocabulary.

I'm tempted to leave the word count out of future queries, or to emphasize that it's only just over 260 pages (mid 66K by 250-method using Courier 12 - another controversial standard) - just don't want to keep getting rejected for the same (arbitrary, if you ask me) reason. It is fantasy, and shorter than the first Harry Potter!

Thanks everyone! Any other ideas still most welcome. . .

TsukiRyoko · Jul 16, 2006

Writer's Market is an excellent source for finding publishers for every genre and sub section. it's 29.99 in US bills, 39.99 in canada. excellent, excellent, you'll keep it by your side always

rachel_r_randall · Jul 16, 2006

I was curious about this too, thanks for asking.

moondance · Jul 17, 2006

I have just sold my first YA novel and it's 62k. I'm in the UK and it's a contemporary story, so I don't know if that makes any difference! Certainly no one has suggested it should be any shorter.

RainbowDragon · Jul 17, 2006

Congratulations!

Congratulations, Moondance! I'm curious also about the UK Market, and whether writers from America can get their stuff read overseas, but thought it would go best in a new thread - feel free to step over there and enlighten us if you have the time!

CaptMorgan · Jul 18, 2006

Amelia Atwater-Rhodes has a couple books out that aren't even 30k.

emsuniverse · Jul 25, 2006

I have a problem on length... I fear mine is going to be too short, ending at about 25K. It's aimed for 13-15 year old girls. The problem right now with adding more is that it would be real substance, it would be fluff.

What should I do?

RoccoMom · Jul 26, 2006

I have heard that 50,000 is a good length for a YA book.

Zolah · Jul 26, 2006

Well, I write fantasy, and that is traditionally slightly longer but...my first YA ms (plucked from the slushpile before I had an agent) was 60,000 words before editing. After working on it with my editor, it hit about 65,000 (comes to 288 pages in a trade paperback format). My second book is 75,000 words. Third is 72,000. So there's definitely hope.

Toothpaste · Jul 27, 2006

I feel a bit like a little kid spying on teenagers in the park, being an MG writer, not YA, but I thought I would add on. My MG book is 87 000 words, and was picked up by a publisher. The original edit that my agent saw before signing me was 10 000 more than that. I think there is such a thing as overwriting, but really if they like it they like it (however I will add that they are both british so. . .)

Isabeaulia · Jul 30, 2006

My YA was well over 90K when it was picked up by a publisher. It's since been reduced to the mid 80's w/edits, which is still considered high for a YA novel that is neither fantasy nor historical fiction. You just never know what you're going to get away with, I guess.

BrianTubbs · Aug 18, 2006

Sounds like there's basically no industry consensus on appropriate lengths for YA books.

jdumais · Aug 22, 2006

I've got an historical YA at Puffin right now (my agent submitted it about six-eight weeks ago *crosses fingers*) that's currently holding at about 75k, and with every edit it seems to gain another five thousand or so. It was originally clocking in at about 50k, and my agent told me that would probably be too short -- though as with fantasy, historical might tend to run longer. 90k is probably too long unless you're an established author, but up to 80k ought to be fine.

TPCSWR · Feb 9, 2008

This is not exact but I generally guess a word count at 25,000 words per 100 pages. If you look at YA it ranges from about 125 - 600 pages, that's 30,000-150,000 words, a HUGE gap. Basically, it depends on the story and audience.

timewaster · Feb 9, 2008

moondance said:
I have just sold my first YA novel and it's 62k. I'm in the UK and it's a contemporary story, so I don't know if that makes any difference! Certainly no one has suggested it should be any shorter.

Mine are all in the 70-90 range, though they are (UK)Fantasy. My publisher is reluctant for me to go much longer than that because the books become more expensive to produce. Book design and font size obviously make a difference to the apparent length of the finished book so it is quite difficult to gauge the word count of published books.
I think my first, which was marketed as middle grade was round 70k but I cna't be positive; it wasn't an issue.

caromora · Feb 9, 2008

This is one of my favorite resources: http://www.renlearn.com/store/quiz_home.asp
You can plug in the name of the book, and it will give you the word count. Very helpful for seeing how books that are similar to yours clock in. It also lets you see which publishers go for longer books and which ones go for shorter.

eyeblink · Feb 10, 2008

As mentioned in another thread, I've seen YA novels under 35k. The longest one I've seen is Aidan Chambers's This Is All, which according to the website caromora links to above is 256k...though if you count Harry Potter as YA instead of MG, Order of the Phoenix is 1000 words longer.

ebenstone · Feb 12, 2008

I think that it may fall along genre lines. Amazon has this great option on many of their books that tells you how many words there are...fantasy seems to get a longer leash when it comes to word counts than other genres, even at the MG level.

YA Word Counts - Hope Over 60K?

RainbowDragon

Perpetuous Revisasaurus

cuteshoes

zeprosnepsid

Tish Davidson

Bryan Reardon

Lavendar

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

RainbowDragon

Perpetuous Revisasaurus

TsukiRyoko

Forced into cell phone life

rachel_r_randall

moondance

RainbowDragon

Perpetuous Revisasaurus

CaptMorgan

emsuniverse

Back to freelancing again...

RoccoMom

Zolah

Over the hills and far away

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

Isabeaulia

Paranormal 2012

BrianTubbs

jdumais

TPCSWR

Unashamed Play School Fan

timewaster

present

caromora

Still alive. Kind of.

eyeblink

Barbara says hi

ebenstone