What makes for a bad novel?

underthecity · Jul 10, 2006

I've read lots of things on AW and in books about proper characterizations, plot, story, attention to detail, etc. In fact, Learn Writing with Uncle Jim is all about the right way to write.

But what are some wrong ways? What should I look for in my own WIP that would make it "bad writing?" Alternatively, there are plenty of books on bookstore shelves, published by big name publishers, that you can't believe actually made it through the tough submission and editorial processes that are awful, forgettable novels. What is it that makes them "bad?"

Note, I've already read Self Editing for Fiction Writers and Atlanta Nights. I'm fishing for specific examples that have snuck through to the end product.

allen

davids · Jul 10, 2006

It is a subjective thing-is it not-usually crappy writing makes for a poor novel that may nevertheless sell well

CaroGirl · Jul 10, 2006

It's bad if the characters are doing the impossible or the incredibly unlikely.

It's bad if you can drive a truck through a plot hole (the impossible or incredibly unlikely applied to plot).

It's bad if characters look and act one way at the beginning of the book, and look and act differently somewhere else.

It's bad if language is used poorly or incorrectly, for example using the wrong word or phrase ("he could care less what she thought" or "the hell with it!").

It's bad if it's full of cliches.

This is, of course, based on my opinion, perspective and experience.

Marlys · Jul 10, 2006

I think a book is bad if the protagonist is unsympathetic. Why should I spend several hours of my life with someone I just don't like? Now, I'm not talking anti-heroes--there are some fascinating bad guys in literature, and I can stay riveted to their stories. But I avoid stupid, shallow people--in literature and in life.

Writing Jedi · Jul 10, 2006

Boring=Bad.

blacbird · Jul 10, 2006

It came out of my word processor.

caw.

Evaine · Jul 10, 2006

I once read an historical novel which I was tempted to throw across the room for its sheer awfulness. I never did finish it and now I have even forgotten the title.
It was bad because it was set in a very particular historic period and setting, and the author clearly knew a lot less than I did about that period and that area.
The plot was unbelievable - an heiress taken to a remote spot and left to wander, the wicked guardians foolishly believing that she wouldn't tell anyone who she was, and that no-one would notice that she was missing from home. Mind you, the heiress was fairly stupid and had to have everything explained to her as well, presumably as a way of getting information over to the reader, but which the heiress should have known already.

maestrowork · Jul 10, 2006

It's very subjective and the author is not the person to judge... the readers are!

For me, if the book takes me OUT of the story, it's bad writing. It could be unrealistic characters, impossible plot, or bad dialogue... most often, it's all of the above that makes a book unreadable for me. But if I can't get into the story, then it's a bad read for me no matter how well the writer writes. But it's subjective. There are some genres or styles of writing that I can't stand, but that's just personal preference. There are books I disliked that went on to sell a few million copies...

Now, I'm talking about published books. These have already passed certain tests to make it through the publishing process. For slush, we can say that bad writing includes any of the following, all of which, I believe, could be fixed with diligence:

- bad grammar and errors
- lack of clarity; inconsistency
- unnecessary wordiness and repetitions
- poor plot: over-complicated, cliched, implausible, flat/uninteresting, etc.
- lack of conflict or suspense or intrigue

That's why I think impartial, well-read betas are very important to a writer, because they can point out things that don't work in these areas (they might not be able to tell you what exactly is wrong or how to fix it, but they can tell you what doesn't work for them).

PattiTheWicked · Jul 10, 2006

I think a lot more books are just Not That Good, rather than Dreadfully Bad. I recently read a mystery book which was part of a series, and I really enjoyed it, so I picked up two other books in the series. Couldn't finish 'em. Not because they sucked -- they didn't -- but because I just couldn't get interested in them. I ended up taking them back to the library unread. I have too many other books in my To Read pile to spend fiddling around with mediocrity.

Life is too short to read boring stuff.

Andre_Laurent · Jul 10, 2006

I once read half of a novel where there were pages of description of the characters clothing. It was repeated scene after scene. I didn't give a rats behind what the characters wore. The book went into the trash.

HConn · Jul 10, 2006

underthecity said:
I've read lots of things on AW and in books about proper characterizations, plot, story, attention to detail, etc. In fact, Learn Writing with Uncle Jim is all about the right way to write.

But what are some wrong ways?

May I suggest a quick jaunt down to the Share Your Work fora?

waylander · Jul 10, 2006

Stories where characters do things that are out of character because that's the way the author wants the plot to go.
i.e. a previously smart character getting involved in something stupid because then they end up in the middle of the adventure which is what the story is about.

CaroGirl · Jul 10, 2006

HConn said:
May I suggest a quick jaunt down to the Share Your Work fora?

Burn. (good one! oh, wait, i think i have something posted in there...)

Gary · Jul 10, 2006

For me it's the story. If the story doesn't capture my interest, no amount of literary perfection can make me struggle through it.

Joanna_S · Jul 10, 2006

Follow the laws of physics. I once read a book that had a character fall through a foot of ice. And no, she didn't weigh the equivalent of a Sherman tank.

Don't leave plot holes. Another book had two characters about to drown in a river and the next scene they found themselves mysteriously on land. The author dealt with this by having them think, "I wonder what happened?" Yeah, me, too.

It must have conflict. Having a story with no conflict is as about as boring as it can get. Conflict can take many forms, but it has to be there somewhere in the mix.

Communication. The goal of stringing words together is to communicate. Make sure your words are doing that. If readers get lost, they probably won't fight to stay with you.

Make it compelling. Stories don't have to be full of rip-roaring action to be engaging and compelling. Whatever story you're telling can be compelling if you work toward that goal.

Tension, conflict, suspense -- these keep a reader turning the page. These aren't synonymous with mysteries or thrillers, you can have suspense in any story (Will they fall in love? Will they defeat the overlords? etc.). The reader has to want to know what's on the next page.

Well, those are my suggestions. Sorry for the duplication of other posts. Forgot to read them before I started typing.

-- Joanna

Cathy C · Jul 10, 2006

CaroGirl said:
It's bad if the characters are doing the impossible or the incredibly unlikely.

It's bad if you can drive a truck through a plot hole (the impossible or incredibly unlikely applied to plot).

It's bad if characters look and act one way at the beginning of the book, and look and act differently somewhere else.

It's bad if language is used poorly or incorrectly, for example using the wrong word or phrase ("he could care less what she thought" or "the hell with it!").

It's bad if it's full of cliches.

This is, of course, based on my opinion, perspective and experience.

I wholeheartedly agree with CaroGirl. But what most people write as a follow-up question is, "What's a plot hole?" so let me give you an example.

Let's say the total amount of "time" in your fictional world for the plot to occur is one week. During that week, many things happen. It's a whirlwind of activity that never seems to stop.

1. A plot hole is where nobody eats, nobody sleeps, nobody brushes their teeth--and yet, miraculously--have no fatigue, continued good humor and kissably fresh breath! :ROFL:

2. A plot hole is where the MC (main character) leaves New York by car at 8:00 a.m. and arrives in the Florida Keys in time to eat lunch.

3. A plot hole is where you've made your MC a high school graduate but can discuss advancements in quantum physics in order to sneak into a lab that's necessary for the plot to advance--without cracking a single book.

Etc., etc. These are just a few common ones. Insert your own (but rest assured my characters all take time to brush their teeth "on-screen" after getting thumped on by the editor...

)

Jamesaritchie · Jul 10, 2006

underthecity said:
Alternatively, there are plenty of books on bookstore shelves, published by big name publishers, that you can't believe actually made it through the tough submission and editorial processes that are awful, forgettable novels. What is it that makes them "bad?"

They usually aren't bad at all. You just don't like them.

There's a big difference between what makes a novel "bad," and what makes one person or another hate a novel. A reader gets to decide whether he loves or hates a novel. He doesn't get to decide whether or not it's good or bad. Only time can do this.

But what makes a novel really bad? Bad writing, a boring story, cardboard characters, unrealistic characters, lousy dialogue, poor pace, bad syntax, etc.

If you want to really see what makes a novel bad, rather than what makes a novel something you love or hate, published novels are not the best place to look. You need to be reading slush piles, or some critique sites, and even a great many of the self-published novels out there.

Compare these to published novels. The differences are striking.

Simon Woodhouse · Jul 10, 2006

CaroGirl said:
It's bad if characters look and act one way at the beginning of the book, and look and act differently somewhere else.

I may have misinterpreted your point here, so please don't take my comments as a criticism, but I would expect my characters to behave differently as the story unfolds. And if they weren't somehow changed (personality wise) by the end of the book, then I would see them as being very cardboard.

At some point during the story they would have been presented with challenges and conflict, and struggled to deal with these things. If they didn't learn something from the experience that changed their view of the world, even if only to a very small degree, I would have to wonder why I'd bothered forcing them to do these things in the first place.

Do you mean inconsistent characters, i.e. person A laughs at a tasteless joke in chapter one, but then for no apparent reason doesn't laugh at the same sort of thing in chapter five?

CaroGirl · Jul 10, 2006

Simon Woodhouse said:
I may have misinterpreted your point here, so please don't take my comments as a criticism, but I would expect my characters to behave differently as the story unfolds. And if they weren't somehow changed (personality wise) by the end of the book, then I would see them as being very cardboard.

At some point during the story they would have been presented with challenges and conflict, and struggled to deal with these things. If they didn't learn something from the experience that changed their view of the world, even if only to a very small degree, I would have to wonder why I'd bothered forcing them to do these things in the first place.

Do you mean inconsistent characters, i.e. person A laughs at a tasteless joke in chapter one, but then for no apparent reason doesn't laugh at the same sort of thing in chapter five?

Yes, I'm talking about inconsistency in both physical appearance and character, not personal growth. I mean if Lulu's eyes suddenly turn brown. Or Jay, a man of absolute integrity, a candidate for the priesthood, suddenly steals his mother's pension cheque because, if he didn't, there'd be no reason for the sexy cop with whom he later has an affair to come to his house.

That's what I mean.

blacbird · Jul 10, 2006

CaroGirl said:
Jay, a man of absolute integrity, a candidate for the priesthood, suddenly steals his mother's pension cheque because, if he didn't, there'd be no reason for the sexy cop with whom he later has an affair to come to his house.

Sounds like a great read. I'd pitch it just this way in a query to an agent.

caw.

maestrowork · Jul 10, 2006

blacbird said:
Sounds like a great read. I'd pitch it just this way in a query to an agent.

caw.

Actually, I agree. A flawed character that is inconsistent means the character is very conflicted... that makes for a fascinating read.

Celia Cyanide · Jul 10, 2006

underthecity said:
What is it that makes them "bad?"

Mimes.

Linda Adams · Jul 10, 2006

Here's some things that I reacted badly to, enough to stay away from the author forever. Most of them are ending related, but not all of them.

Ending out of left field. This was in Catherine Coulter's Blow Out, which had a murder that occurred in the Supreme Court. I thought it was going to have this exciting revelation at the end, and instead the equivelent of aliens landed in the end. I got to that and felt like I wasted my money for this?

Ending not paying off. One book spent almost the entire book talking about how competent the heroine was in martial arts, guns, etc, and when the end happened, she used not one of those talents. She had to be rescued by someone else because she suddenly turned helpless. In a fantasy series, the same thing happened in the last book, where the heroine of the series was made helpless halfway through and went from main character of the story to nearly a red shirt.

Leaving things hanging. Ending a chapter by leaving off a critical detail--i.e., I stared at it, horrified by what I was seeing (whatever "it" is) and then explain the "it" many chapters later--after I've already forgotten the significance of "it."

Overcomplicating the story. This is a particular problem with thrillers. The writer will add one too many threads into the story, and it'll overcomplicate itself to the point where the ending can't sustain it and falls apart.

jackie106 · Jul 10, 2006

underthecity said:
What makes for a bad novel?

Angst, whining, and navel-gazing.

Tirjasdyn · Jul 10, 2006

From a very bad book:

If it takes you 146 pages to get out of scene one and only because you need to tell us how everything was created and make a Harvard professor look stupid...you need professional editing help.

If the reader knows more than the main chacter who is a Harvard professor of Symbology, and that reader has a BA or less, you've got problems.

Readers on a need to know basis. They don't need to know who built the Louvre, how a swiss bank works, or what Disney did in his spare time unless it really pertains to the story. I mean really pertains, as in affects the plot/characters directly.

Introducing character foibles(sp) for the shear hell of it is unacceptable, severe claustriphobia should affect a person locked in vaults, crypts, trunks, and other small dark spaces.

You shouldn't call every American you meet a prude if you are shocked that your grandfather has kinky sex and never speak to him again.

It's not the same day if it's after midnight.

If you want to show paganism in a good light, try not to repeat false statistics.

Readers are on a need to know basis: "Why" is something the readers need to know.

Police from one country do not have jurisdiction in another country.

Try to keep Harry Potter out of it unless your name is JK Rowling.

If you have to use phrases like "Getting to the point", perhaps you should consider doing so.

What makes for a bad novel?

underthecity

Finestkind

davids

CaroGirl

Living the dream

Marlys

Resist. Love. Go outside.

Writing Jedi

blacbird

Evaine

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

PattiTheWicked

Unleashing Hell.

Andre_Laurent

HConn

Whore for genre

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

CaroGirl

Living the dream

Gary

Joanna_S

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!

Jamesaritchie

Simon Woodhouse

CaroGirl

Living the dream

blacbird

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Celia Cyanide

Joker Groupie

Linda Adams

Soldier, Storyteller

jackie106

Tirjasdyn

Outline Maven