Do controversial themes and subjects make publishing a novel more difficult?

[Homer]

I read in an agent's profile that he doesn't handle books with subject matter such as September 11, plots to destroy America, serial killers, children in peril, rape, suicide, and depression. Is this common? Assuming a well-crafted, heart stopping novel, and that the novel doesn't advocate anti-social behavior (such as racism) as one of its themes, but depicts charged or controversial subject matter such as those listed above that this agent would refuse to handle, does such subject matter make the novel more difficult to publish? What about exreme violence? An atheistic point of view? It occurred to me that taken literally this agent's limitations would mean that he couldn't represent the Narnia books, Huckleberry Finn, practically anything by Dostoyevsky, a number of Shakespeare's plays, Lord of the Rings, John LeCarre's novels, not to mention some modern classics such as Blood Meridian and Beloved. He would have had to take a pass on John Updike's latest book. Does charged, or controversial subject matter make a book more or less saleable, all other things being equal? What do you think? It seems to me that publishing most emphatically should not be that way. On the contrary.

[TwentyFour]

Pretty much if it is for shock value, he will not take it on. I'm sure the next "A Time To Kill" or "To Kill a Mockingbird" would be welcomed.

[Alan Yee]

Hmmmm... my story/novel isn't intended to be a shock value thing.

The controversial part (which in my mind isn't really controversial, but more closed-mindedness on the part of some people) is the homosexuality and bisexuality of the characters (humans, half-demons, and full demons) in the story. It's also a rather dark, intense story, I might add. Although I know there are PLENTY of books with gay, bi, lesbian, and trans characters, there's still some conservative Christians who try to get books banned for their gay or bisexual characters. It would be kind of boring if all characters in literature were all straight, wouldn't it?

[Alan Yee]

I think mine might be more difficult to sell to some certain publishers, but I've seen other books with similar theme and tone to mine that have been published before with major publishers.

This is why, once I've finished the book, I'll need an agent who knows which imprints are more likely to publish books of its nature.

[jackie106]

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about the entire publishing industry based on one agent's taste. There are plenty of recent books that deal with rape, serials killers, violence, Sept. 11, and plots to destroy America. Heck, Philip Roth's second-most-recent book is called "The Plot Against America."

Jackie

[expatbrat]

Is this just one agent? Is this just one person prefering not to deal with work that goes against his own beliefs?

[KTC]

I ran into an agent once who suggested the same thing to me. 'I won't even look at a story with child abuse in it'. (This wasn't in regards to my work...we were just having a conversation.) She named 4 or 5 themes that she just wouldn't tolerate. I argued that she could be passing up the next big novel. She said she didn't care...she had the right to choose not to represent authors with these themes. In the end, she's absolutely right. I ended up applauding her for her choices. I said, "I would not have thought agents had moral standards!" She laughed. The point is, if I am even trying to make one, agents have to be looked at individually. What one agent does does not represent all agents. Some may just want to take on a great book...some may want to stay away from certain themes for personal or moral reasons. It's their perogative.

More importantly...the writing has to be good. If you find an agent whose only priority is to sell great writing, the theme will be secondary.

[illiterwrite]

Agents have to love the work they represent -- enough to champion a book, try to sell it, read it over and over again, invest a lot of time and energy -- so doesn't it make sense that they'd refuse themes that don't appeal to them or turn them right off?

[Inkdaub]

It's all relative. I'm sure this agent would be fine with a book that had Updike's name on it. I have to think it can only help if agents state ahead of time what they don't want from new or 'unproven' writers. I would love it if, when I am ready to seek an agent, I had a bit of information on what they want and dont want. Saves on postage if nothing else.

[MadScientistMatt]

There's quite a few publishers who will take on stories with gay characters. Lots of mainstream stories have some characters who are gay. That doesn't sound all that controversial these days, although you might not have a good chance at getting it placed with Zondervan. :D

[Gillhoughly]

Themes to sell vary with the agent. One's poison is another's sale.

Ditto for publishers. I know of one editor who threw a book across the room and stated something about committing bodily harm on the writer, then the same book sold to another house a week later. (But it did badly.)

9/11 is a theme that I won't touch as a writer, and I rather think there are publishing houses that aren't ready for it.

I phoned my editor that day to see if she was all right. She wasn't. The towers were visible from her window and half her co-workers were in her office watching and crying.

I phoned my agent--who'd been in a panic trying to locate her missing husband and child. They turned up, thankfully, but that day left serious scars on everyone. Some months later I went to a signing for one of my fav writers. NYC is HIS town, and he refused to talk about 9/11. The look on his face--no way was anyone going to ignore him on that.

No thanks, I'm sticking to escapist fiction submissions.

The big selling books during the London Blitz were Agatha Christie mysteries. They helped people spending the night in a tube station to forget the bombs falling above and who would be dead by morning. Can't blame 'em for that.

Gay themes? Hey, go for it. I've a number of gay characters in my stuff. Didn't plan it that way, they just turned up in my head and got woven into the plot. Straight, gay, demon or Martian, a good character is a good character is a good character.

[citymouse]

There's quite a few publishers who will take on stories with gay characters. Lots of mainstream stories have some characters who are gay. That doesn't sound all that controversial these days, although you might not have a good chance at getting it placed with Zondervan. :D

MSM, I wasn't going to respond to this thread until I read your comment. My situation is rather odd. In my Jan Phillips series, Jan is gay and he's also a practicing Catholic. The controversy here lies in getting a gay readership to read about a character who clearly loves his faith (not to be confused with the churchmen). Believe me it ain't easy. Agents and publishers with an eye to profits know well that most (stress most) gay fiction is devoid of references to faith (of any stripe).
This is, I believe, a reaction to how religions generally (stress generally) treat the GLBT community. My novels are not an attempt to turn that around, merely acknowledge gay characters need not be recovering Christians or Muslims, etc to be believable.
Saying that, selling a character who's Catholic underpinning is basic to who he is, and how he deals with his world is no easy thing.
Oh, before I shoot myself in the foot here I should say that these stories are not preachy in any way, however, the reader has no doubt where Jan is coming from.

One more thing, I don't want to start another thread here on churches versus gays. That's been done to death and I suspect it will get another round of discussion soon. But I for one would like a break.

[James D. Macdonald]

...does such subject matter make the novel more difficult to publish?

What makes it difficult is that everyone and his dog, it seemed, was writing a 9/11 story. Usually badly.

No book is perfect for every agent; no book is perfect for every publisher. (Harlequin just isn't going to publish a Mickey Spillane novel, no matter how well it might sell.) This reflects the fact that no book is perfect for every reader.

[drevil915]

I'd think that publishers/agents would want controversial books to publish. It makes money. I mean look at the Da Vinci Code and all those goons who wanted it banned.

[Simon Woodhouse]

The publisher I'm with is a devout Christian, but I didn't realise this until I'd submitted my whole MS. I was sure she'd object to a couple of scenes, especially where one character poses as a prostitute and has sex for money. The publisher made quite a few suggestions regarding scenes she thought could be improved, but didn't mention the prostitute one at all, which really surprised me. The scene wasn't gratuitous, and I did show how it affected the character involved, so perhaps that's why she didn't object?

I think you can include most anything in your writing, and get it published, as long as it's handled well.

[maestrowork]

That's only one agent. Agents are like publishers in a sense that they only like to represent things they enjoy/love/can do a good job marketing. Every agent has his or her own preferences. If I were an agent, I probably wouldn't want to represent a novel about 9/11 or something overtly religious. It doesn't mean those books won't sell; it simply means the writer should look for a good match with an agent who loves that stuff, and the agent would pair the ms. with a publisher who publishes that stuff.

[blackbird]

If it's a good story and well written, someone, eventually, will probably be willing to champion it, but you just have to hang in there and persevere until you find that special agent or editor.

Controversial subjects are not impossible to sell, but as you've already seen, certainly VERY VERY difficult. However, what is considered controversial is a constant flux and has much to do with the political climate of the times. Thirty or forty years ago, a novel about a gay relationship would have been controversial. Today, it would be considered far more controversial to have a main character who is openly homophobic
than a novel about two likeable characters of the same sex who love each other (although such a novel would probably still be controversial in the Bible belt, but these are the same people protesting Brokeback Mountain and The Da Vinci Code).

As for stories about September 11, terrorrism, and so forth, I can speak from some experience as a reader for a major literary magazine and the horrors of the slush pile. It is not so much that agents and editors are totally opposed to those themes, but the simple fact that in the past few years there has been an absolute deluge of such stories, and unfortunately, 99% of those are dreck or worse. Agents and editors will say they don't want stories on these themes because they wish to discourage wading through tons of mediocre dreck about Middle Eastern terrorists and the Good American Hero who saves the day. I would be willing to bet there isn't an agent worth his/her gold anywhere out there who wouldn't love to see a brilliant story about the events of 9/11, but it would have to be a diamond bright enough to blind and completely unlike anything on the subject they've seen before, and most agents are smart enough to know the odds of such aren't very likely

I wouldn't go so far as to say most agents and editors are only looking for positive, feel-good, non-controversial subject matter, but the bottom line is, where there is controversy there is always risk. And where there is risk there is a potential for backlash and loss of profit, and the reality is that the dollar IS the bottom line. But don't give up if you believe in your story.
You might have to fight a little harder for it, but if you have the faith, it's worth it.

[Alan Yee]

Although my main character (male) is bisexual, and hooks up with a gay man, I don't think it should be classified as gay fiction. It's a dark fantasy/horror story about demons and the humans in their lives, and what happens between a lustful demon father and his half-demon son (main character). The gay and bisexual relationships among several of the characters are just secondary to the main storyline.

[Gillhoughly]

Harlequin just isn't going to publish a Mickey Spillane novel, no matter how well it might sell.

I would like to bear your children.

That or send you the cleaning bill for my soda spritzed keyboard.

Either one works for me.

[zeprosnepsid]

I was actually under the impression that books sell better with controversial themes. A lot of the biggest books (money-wise and prize-wise) in the past 10-20 years have had rape, incest, satanism and whatnot.

Good writing helps tho...

[HConn]

There will always be people who don't want to read the sort of thing you write, and some of them will work in publishing. It only matters if no one wants to read your book.

[zeprosnepsid]

Depends on the theme, and on how the theme is presented. It often isn't the theme that stops a book from getting the attention of an agent or editor, but how the theme is presented, and what the book has to say about the theme.

It seems you've gotten in this funny habit of elaborating on my brevity =)

[gabbleandhiss]

Although I know there are PLENTY of books with gay, bi, lesbian, and trans characters, there's still some conservative Christians who try to get books banned for their gay or bisexual characters.

Wow. Talk about closed-mindedness. You have PLENTY of it.

[Alan Yee]

Why? There's lots of books with gay characters. Mine has gay and bi characters. What's so closed-minded about that? There still are people who try to ban books for silly reasons.

I also have plenty of straight characters in other stories. I acknowledge that some people only want to read to about straight characters, and I'm fine with that. I don't see what the big problem is.

[citymouse]

The gay and bisexual relationships among several of the characters are just secondary to the main storyline.

Many writers use gay characters in “mainstream” stories to supply backgrounds or devices that strengthen the main characters. Conversely, in gay stories, straight characters are treated in the same way and so highlight the gay character’s role in the plot.
In my stories however, I treat both gay and straight characters with equal importance and sympathy and so balance the relationship one to the other. I do that with their financial status as well. My characters do not develop or act in a vacuum. Gay or straight, villain or hero the characters have their own dimension, life and purpose for being. Some are obscenely rich while others come from humble or even dire straits. Some are handsome, androgynous or ugly, while others are young, aging or old. Some have love and sex; others long for it. I chose to make my main character wealthy because without an extreme financial underpinning rivaling the national debt he couldn’t hope to pull off some of the things he gets into.

[Alan Yee]

Many writers use gay characters in “mainstream” stories to supply backgrounds or devices that strengthen the main characters. Conversely, in gay stories, straight characters are treated in the same way and so highlight the gay character’s role in the plot.


In mine, which is sort of a dark fantasy, the gay relationships strengthen the main characters while everything goes on. There aren't too many, but there a few, straight characters in my story.

[Sassenach]

It's the satanic lesbian novels that are the tough sell these days.

[Alan Yee]

Fortunately, my characters are not Satanic.

[A.C.]

Wow. Talk about closed-mindedness. You have PLENTY of it.

Could you explain why his comment would be closed-minded?

The only closed-mindedness I see is from the people trying to ban such books (or any books for that matter!).

----

Anyway, back to the topic! I know how you feel. The novel I'm writing now has a main character who is gay. As I'm writing it I'm wondering if there are enough agents out there who are willing to read such novels. And I’d hate to have my novel labeled “gay lit” just because the main character is gay...after all, his orientation is not the theme of the book. Sometimes it seems so much easier to work on a novel that has secondary gay characters (which seems more acceptable to most people).

I also have an idea for a novel dealing with child sexual abuse and how it affects the child once it grows up. I'm saddened to hear that novels with such an important theme aren’t deemed "readable."

and depression.

Is this agent for real?

What serious novel DOESN'T deal with depression? It’s a part of life!

-A.C.

[citymouse]

AC our minds jump as one. In my first novel Bought and Paid For I have two main characters. The first (Tim) is seduced at age 15 and then pimped out by his seducer. Later as a man he becomes involved with an 18yo (Jan). The brutal loss of innocence and subsequent years of prostitution colors Tim's relationship with Jan to the point of abuse. These themes are a reality in many situations whether they be straight or gay. In the end Jan comes to terms with this but not after severe upheaval.

The basic theme that runs in all of my stories is that of choices. My characters make good choices for bad reasons and bad choices for good reasons. Sometimes they even make good choices for good reasons (balance you know) In the end, each person deals with his/her choices. Saying that, the books are not dark. In the end good wins out over bad, but not before everyone gets a good scare!

[Alan Yee]

Anyway, back to the topic! I know how you feel. The novel I'm writing now has a main character who is gay. As I'm writing it I'm wondering if there are enough agents out there who are willing to read such novels. And I’d hate to have my novel labeled “gay lit” just because the main character is gay...after all, his orientation is not the theme of the book. Sometimes it seems so much easier to work on a novel that has secondary gay characters (which seems more acceptable to most people).


That's what I'm wondering. If there's enough agents who will represent a book if the main character is gay. It would be so much easier if the gay characters in my story/novel were only secondary, but alas, they are not.

[Vimala Lioness]

My first novel was about the lives of 5 gay women.
There was no murder, no money, no treasure, no conspiracy, no real plot. Just these 5 women and their lives. Plenty happens but everything is derived from their sexuality.

For at least 4 of them the term
'I can't even think straight' would be apt.
OK, so nobody took up this novel, but in my work, lesbian characters are not accidental but central.

I'm a Brit so not overburdened by ultra conservative, bible belt fanaticism at home. A lot of my writing has been done in Malaysia and it is my ambition to be banned there, which is easily done. It is a nanny state, desperate that the population know nothing but narrowly defined educational subjects and baby raising.

I think it is best that agents chose the genres they wish to promote, since we will want them to promote our work wholeheartedly.

I congratulate you on this website. It is the first truly intelligent chat forum I've visited.

Regards to you all

Vimala

[maestrowork]

AC our minds jump as one. In my first novel Bought and Paid For I have two main characters. The first (Tim) is seduced at age 15 and then pimped out by his seducer. Later as a man he becomes involved with an 18yo (Jan). The brutal loss of innocence and subsequent years of prostitution colors Tim's relationship with Jan to the point of abuse. These themes are a reality in many situations whether they be straight or gay. In the end Jan comes to terms with this but not after severe upheaval.


Unfortunately, an agent or a publisher is going to have to categorize this as gay fiction because: a) your protagonist(s) are gay and b) he has gay relationships and c) the story is about consequences of these relationships. It doesn't matter if your themes are universal -- most gay fiction has universal themes, too. Heck most novel -- gay, straight, alien, about animals -- have universal themes. If it's sci-fi, it's sci-fi. If it's gay, it's gay.

The reason why agents and publishers need to identify and categorize your work is that they know how to sell it, how to market it, and how to shelf it. Which slot to fill. Calling it "mainstream/contemporary" is not good enough because the category is too broad; there will be people who pick it up not knowing it has gay characters and gay relationships and they would, if not offended, feel "lied to" by the publisher. That's not to say it can't be done -- many books with gay characters did pass in the market as "mainstream/literary/whatever" without the mention of its gay content. But it's human nature to categorize things -- eventually, someone will call your book "gay" and you a "gay author."

Take my novel for an example. My protagonist is half-Asian and part of the story happens in Asia and some of the characters are Asians, but there are also many non-Asian characters, settings, plot, etc. Even though my publisher didn't label it Asian-American literature, eventually I found that book-sellers or reviewers want to call it that anyway -- it's all about target audience and who may or may not buy the book. Calling it Asian-American literature wouldn't deter anyone who's not Asian from buying the book; however, they would know what they're going to read, and it will attract people who are into Asian-American "stuff."

My novel also has minor gay characters in it, as well as disabled people, racial minorities, children, women, etc. but my book is not characterized as gay fiction, disabled people's fiction, women's fiction, etc.

But in your case, chances are you book will be categorized as gay fiction. Now, the question is, why would you think it's bad? In fact, I think that would be good because it would bring focus to your book and your audience. Help you focus on marketing... if you are afraid that non-gay people are going to avoid you book a) think again and b) maybe you shouldn't have written it that way to begin with if that is really your concern.

Now, if your book fits into one of the bigger umbrella genres which doesn't really mind gay content (say, fantasy, sci-fi, etc.) then all is good. However, you bet your aZZ if it's a romance, it will be filed immediately under "gay romance," no questions asked.


Back to the original question -- I don't think gay fiction is controversial at all, unless you're trying to sell it to a homophobic community. There is a gay market out there, and it seems like if you do indeed write a story about gay people and their relationships (again, universal themes don't matter in their categorization), it will make it easier for you to find the right agent/publisher. Look for those who represent or publish gay fiction.

Would I deliberately look for a gay fiction. Not likely. But would I be offended if I pick up a book with a central gay character and relationship? Nope. However, I would expect the author and the publisher be up front about it and let the readers decide for themselves.

In truth, I really don't think there's a topic too controversial to find a home. 9/11? There are books out there and there are books coming out about 9/11. Christian conspiracies? A dime a dozen. Child abuse? There they are. Rape, murder, police brutality, soldier's atrocities, etc. etc. They are out there. Someone must be publishing them. The trick is to find out who are publishing books like yours, and find the right match for your book. You wouldn't send your techno-thriller ms. to an agent representing romance authors, would you?

[Jenan Mac]

Why? There's lots of books with gay characters. Mine has gay and bi characters. What's so closed-minded about that? There still are people who try to ban books for silly reasons.

I'm not sure there are good reasons to ban a book. The act of banning, itself, is negative-- though personally, I think it holds more gravity than "silly" implies.

[Jenan Mac]

It's the satanic lesbian novels that are the tough sell these days.

Sheesh. NOW you tell me.

[Jenan Mac]

That's what I'm wondering. If there's enough agents who will represent a book if the main character is gay. It would be so much easier if the gay characters in my story/novel were only secondary, but alas, they are not.

There's a boatload of 'em. Elizabeth Wales, Russell Galen, Goldin Lit... just to name a couple off the top of my head.

[Pup]

Well, I don't know anyone who is trying to ban books. Or anyone who can. And saying such things about Christians is every bit as close-minded as Christians themselves wanting to ban books.

I'd say the following articles support Alan Yee's statement: "there's still some conservative Christians who try to get books banned for their gay or bisexual characters."

http://www.signorile.com/articles/nyp142.html
From that article: "Actually, three were over 550 books banned or removed from school districts or libraries in the United States in 2004 by religious zealots, according to Judith Krug of the American Library Association... The majority of the books today that are challenged by school districts and libraries, Krug says, are those that deal with sexual orientation."

http://www.alternet.org/rights/26133/ an article on "Banning Gay Books."

I don't see how it's close-minded to state easily verified facts.

[Jenan Mac]

Well, I don't know anyone who is trying to ban books. Or anyone who can. And saying such things about Christians is every bit as close-minded as Christians themselves wanting to ban books. Pray someone does make a serious attempt to have your book banned. It can't happen. There hasn't been a book banned in this country for more than fifty years. And that ban didn't work. But having someone attempt a ban is wonderful for sales.

James, define "ban". Because I suspect you mean "ban" on a national level. Locally, books get banned all the time-- from school systems, local libraries, all kinds of taxpayer-supported places.

[maestrowork]

I'd say the following articles support Alan Yee's statement: "there's still some conservative Christians who try to get books banned for their gay or bisexual characters."

So what? Some people try to ban Harry Potter, too. There has always been and will always be people like that who wants to ban books.

It's really simple. If you don't want to read it, don't read it.

I don't write gore. I don't read gore. But I sure as hell am not going to tell someone not to write and sell/buy them. To each his own.

[glutton]

I'm not sure how controversial my book is, but I think it might be in terms of violence towards women- well, a woman. It's a fantasy adventure, in which the female protagonist is constantly taking extreme punishment in combat that would EASILY kill any normal person. But she isn't portrayed as a helpless victim or anything, her gimmick's that she's nearly indestructable, and she always keeps fighting no matter how badly she's hurt, and usually wins. She's epically tough. But I can see how some people might have problems with this...

[A.C.]

This is not book banning in any sense of the word. It makes light of book banning, and it's foolishness. Another case of whose ox is being gored. It's a bad and foolish parent who doesn't try to keep books they think shouldn't be in a school library out of that library, whether that book is the Bible, Playboy, or gay/lesbian.

I can see how you wouldn't think of it as banning, since you group the bible, Playboy, and any book with a gay character in the same category.

Here's a good link: http://community.livejournal.com/as_if_authors/

-A.C.

[Alan Yee]

For the record, I am a Christian also, so I don't see how I'm closed-minded about the behavior of some other Christians. I menat that I've heard of some (not all) Christians who want to ban books that contain homosexualiy. I didn't actually mean a national ban, I meant people who try to keep such books out of local public libraries. People have tried to do the same thing with Harry Potter. All I was saying is that if they don't want to read it, they don't have to read it, and they shouldn't stop anyone else from reading it.

Now, if your book fits into one of the bigger umbrella genres which doesn't really mind gay content (say, fantasy, sci-fi, etc.) then all is good.

Yeah, I think mine would fit under dark fantasy. I've seen plenty of gay content in SF/F/H stories and novels, so it seems to be more tolerated there than elsewhere.

[stupidmansuit]

Pretty much if it is for shock value, he will not take it on. I'm sure the next "A Time To Kill" or "To Kill a Mockingbird" would be welcomed.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[maestrowork]

Yeah, I think mine would fit under dark fantasy. I've seen plenty of gay content in SF/F/H stories and novels, so it seems to be more tolerated there than elsewhere.

I think "tolerate" is not a right word. I think "limited market" might be a better word for it. I mean, tolerated by whom? Agents? Publishers? There are plenty of agents and publishers for gay fiction, and plenty of readers. To say gay fiction is not "tolerated" seems a little self-loathing there.

[HConn]

Man, I would love to have one of my books banned somewhere.

[Alan Yee]

I'm aware that there are plenty of agents, publishers, and readers for gay fiction. I was just commenting that the SF/F/H genres, where mine fits under, are generally more open to gay content.