3d computer animation for a short?

strap

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im attending san francisco state this fall and look to complete my first short film project. however, the action in the short would be way too expenisve to shoot live action so the best bet would to make it animated. the only concern i have is if universities like sfsu have such resources to make a 3d animated short. look at toy story? how much did that cost? would 8 minutes of that quality animation be expensive? would it be within a reasonable budget? any students or graduates from such film school have any knowledge about this?

thanx for any info.
 

cuteshoes

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I am a computer animator, not 3d, i do 2d.

I can tell you this, the average computer animator has a day rate between $400 and $600. You might be able to find some current students who will do it for cheaper or even free but I can guarentee the work will not be as good and they won't have ample time to work on it with their own projects. Without at least a year or two experience in commercials, recent grads or current students just don't know enough to be able to get it done nicely. I can give you sites to post on and I'm sure freelancers would jump at the chance to take this on and telecommute but they won't compromise their fee.

8 minutes is going to take a long time to create. Mostly, we work on thirty second commercials which can be done in a few days or take a few months. Character animation will specifically take longer but if you get a couple of people involved, it can be done sooner. Freelancers and the big guys like dreamworks pretty much all use the same software so the quality will be the same.

im sure its not the answer you are looking for because of the high prices. thats why 3d films have such high budgets - everyone there is making buttloads.
 

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What cuteshoes said.

3D animation is incredibly slow going. Good character modellers are few and far between. I did a degree called Computer Art which focused largely on animation, especially 3D animation and I can tell you that of the sixteen people on the course there were perhaps three good character modellers who had skill. However, that's just character modelling. You still need someone to rig the models (put virtual bones inside) texture and map the models, light the models and then of course animate the models. You also need an army of people to create the world the characters will live in - locations, props, vehicles, trees weather etc. You need more people to light that stuff, you need people who know how virtual cameras work and then, of course, you need someone (and some damn good computers) to actually render the stuff. Since it's not uncommon to render elements separately, (backgrounds, particle effects, shadows and highlights, ray traced elements etc) you may also need someone who can combine those layers in compositing software.

If you approach the right people and are professional about it, you'll find that creative types are always willing to work on extra-credit projects as long as they can get copies for their show reel. They will have their own ideas in mind for their own projects though so convincing them to spend months (yes, months) on yours will be tricky. Cracking the whip and maintaining your control is also going to be difficult. The only way around it is to either convince them through your pitching abilities that this is the project to work on or pay them. I have no idea how much you would pay them except it really shouldn't be by the hour. These kind of projects ave a nasty habit of running long. It should be a set, agreed amount and although it's going to sound anal, the more formal the agreement the better. If you're serious about this, contracts would not be a bad idea and animators won't necessarily mind because it'll give them something to put on their resumes after they graduate.

Now. Unless you've got one character alone on a darkened stage talking, I wouldn't rate your chances of getting 8 mins out. A few reasons with some soul-destroying math...

8 mins is a long time in animation. The best shorts are short. Anything from 30 seconds to maybe two minutes. You have to be economical with this stuff because it is soooo time-consuming. Even just looking at the rendering times. A modest animation might take twenty minutes a frame to render. (And that's being generous. Big effects movies can take hours and hours to render single frames.) So twenty minutes a frame multiplied by 24 frames a second for film equals 480 minutes or 8 hours of solid rendering for one second of your animation. You have 480 seconds in your 8 minute film which adds up to 3840 hours or 160 days of rendering.

If your render times become more complicated then that time can easily double or triple. Hell, if it goes up by one minute (twenty-one minutes a frame) you get 8 more days added on to your render time! And I'm not talking nine-to-five days, I'm talking about twenty four hour blocks where you will have to leave the computer to do its thing without touching it.

So you can see that if it takes three months (again, generous) to create from scratch everything in your story - create the worlds, light and animate everything - you still need 160 days or approx 5 months to render the thing depending on how complicated the render is. That's one computer doing the job. You can bring render times down by rendering on more than one machine or setting up a render farm but this can be complicated and incredibly bureaucratic, especially at universities where the computers are in constant use.

This is why graduate show reels are typically about forty seconds long! Nobody has the time or the resources to pull off big animation projects. It just isn't workable.

To be fair, most student projects will not be this complicated and typical render times may drop to just a couple of minutes a frame but bare in mind this would be the most simplistic, standard animation around with none of the bells and whistles that Toy Story has. And of course, even at 2 minutes a frame, you're still looking at 16 days for 8 minutes. Assuming, of course, the computers don't crash, which they will, and that the render turns out fine first time, which it won't.

The one thing animation companies tell prospective employees when submitting showreels is they'd rather see 30 second of drop-dead, awesome material than three minutes of so-so stuff. I know it's different for you because you want to make a film, you don't want to be an animator but I think the same kind of thing applies. A bad 8 minute film might make an excellent 2 minute film.

Having said all that... you are free to pursue any projects you want and I certainly won't try to stop you. Just wanted to make you aware of some of the difficulties you'll face.

My gut says if you want it 8 minutes long, avoid 3D and do it in flash or after effects as a 2d project. I also think it would be far easier to actually film the thing for yourself with real actors or locations than do it in 3D. If you can do it in one shot, it'll only take eight minutes.

That's real-time rendering. ;)
 

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Oooh, interesting answers to something I've wondered about myself.

I've piddled around with basic 3D software like Anim8or and blender and their various plug-ins, and useful location building tools like DesignWorkShop Lite, but as clever as they are, these PC programs don't come anywhere close to the industrial strength applications we're used to seeing in films.

I thought magic_school_bus's short animation looked fun, and was surprised to discover how it was made, using software that's just one component of a sim. There must be similar programs out there that allow the user to define locations and populate 'em with moving, speaking characters, but I've not found any yet (maybe because I always define "free" when I Google, cheapskate that I am).

I was going to suggest the staggeringly obvious, that instead of writing an epic with big action scenes you write to budget (i.e. don't exceed available resources). But... and I'm reading your "concept for short" thread as I write this msg... it looks as if it might be too late for that. :)

Maybe there's someone at SFSU who can advise further? Just in case you don't have the links,
http://www.sfsu.edu - main site
http://cs.sfsu.edu/ - Department of Computing Science

-Derek
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Stop reading this and get some writing done instead.
 

strap

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dont worry, ive got plenty of other concepts which would be muuuuuuuuuch cheaper to produce. suppose thats why most indie shorts are either cheaply made comedies or drama........all free acting!
 

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if you approach the right people and are professional about it, you'll find that creative types are always willing to work on extra-credit projects as long as they can get copies for their show reel.

i just want to comment on this. i challenge you to find any professional who has been working for at least a year willing to work for free. I have only been working as a 2d animator/compositor for about 2-3 years now and I am at the point where my reel doesn't matter and doesn't get me jobs. i have developed relationships with clients and with other freelancers who recommend me for jobs. i haven't sent out a reel in a year and i haven't been without a job for more than a week without my choosing to do so in order to write.

so the only people you are going to find who will work for free in order to get this on their reel are current students and recent graduates who do not have enough experience to get them consistent work. the problem is just that - they don't have significant experience. i can tell immediately if i am watching a professional reel or a reel of someone just out of college. you can be taught to be an animator but experience teaches you a lot more than you can learn in 8 semester.

to the person who mentioned they studied computer art - may i ask where? i also was in a program called computer art at syracuse university. of the 20 people in my grade who graduated with knowledge of 3d/2d animation, i am one of only three people working in the animation field. the rest are all doing web design because they didn't have the talent to propel them into the career path they originally wanted. of course all i want to do is write! i suck!

the thing about character animation is that good animation is great but bad animation can be discerned easily by even the casual viewer because we recognize the human face and know when things are off about it. therefore, an amatuer will have a hard time capturing the human essence (or even a creature or animal that is talking) and it will show in the finished product.
 

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cuteshoes said:
i just want to comment on this. i challenge you to find any professional who has been working for at least a year willing to work for free.

Yeah, sorry, it's not very clear but all my comments were made regarding university students, not professionals. I've never worked in the professional field so I wouldn't want to comment on working habits though I can imagine it's as you say - not many willing to work for free.
 

strap

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what if i could condense the short to a little over 4 minutes and use 2d animation? would that be more budget friendly?
 

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strap said:
what if i could condense the short to a little over 4 minutes and use 2d animation? would that be more budget friendly?
Yeah, it would help out but the biggest killer with animation projects, whatever their format, is time. Just so you know, when I say 2d animation i mean things like flash, not traditional hand-drawn stuff which would literally take forever. You can still create neat movies with flash but if you want even the most basic of effects you really need to find people who know what they're doing. Personally I hate flash (using, not watching) probably because I was absolutely useless with it at university.

Hate to be the voice of doom but even 4mins is going to take some time to put together. But if you've got the time and you find the people, good luck to you.
 

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just to reiterate - i am a 2d animator.

while it is defiantely less time consuming than 3d since there are less steps involved -it still takes a long time. i did a 30 second character animatyion commercial for burger king (which i tried to upload for you but it's taking too long to commpress for web and i don't have time to tweak it). It took me 2 weeks to do working 10 hours a day. Now, I was the only animator on this particular commercial (we did 3 commercials and each had its own animator) but it involved lip synching and all that good stuff so it was inevitably time consuming.

Professional 2d animators get paid the same pay scale per day as 3d animators so you won't be able to ask a professional. The good news is that 2d animation is predominately done in after effects, a program which is much easier to download and learn than 3d software. An amateur can probably produce decent quality work.

4 minutes is long. Anything about 1 minute (maybe 2 minutes) is long.

Your best bet is to try and get animators to work over the summer when they are off from school and can call it an "internship" on their resume.

If you are ready to start production, you will need to alot time for storyboarding, design of characters, and animation. This could take up a good chunk of time so I suggest you start finding people now.

Craigslist usually yields a lot of people willing to work for free.
 

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cuteshoes said:
to the person who mentioned they studied computer art - may i ask where? i also was in a program called computer art at syracuse university. of the 20 people in my grade who graduated with knowledge of 3d/2d animation, i am one of only three people working in the animation field. the rest are all doing web design because they didn't have the talent to propel them into the career path they originally wanted. of course all i want to do is write! i suck!
Sorry, cuteshoes - missed this the first time round. I studied Computer Art at a university in Dundee, Scotland. While the majority of the course was focused on animation in all its forms, I took the filmmaking/writing route. In general the course was trying to promote any kind of creativity as long as it used a computer. Most of the other graduates work in the field of graphics and animation for computer games or freelance as web designers, graphic designers etc. I have a strong interest in animation/visual effects but it's more of a side-line thing for me as I try to keep writing full-time.
 

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that's cool! I thought all i wanted to do with my life was be an animator/compositor but the last few months i've had an itch to write (i almost changed my major to writing in college) so now im doing writing in my spare time and animation to pay the bills. luckily i am freelance so i can take time off to write. its kind of the best of both worlds right now, except im unpublished.