Opposing Critiques

Sarah Skilton · May 18, 2006

I recently completed the first draft of my novel, and handed it over to my small writing group for critique. The first reader thinks the structure -- which fluctuates each chapter from the past to the present -- needs a lot of work, and the second reader found the structure to be a compelling and natural facet of the story.

I'm leaning toward keeping it the way it is (surprise, surprise) but it made me curious about what other people do in this situation, i.e. when two readers, both of whom you respect as writers, entertain completely opposite reactions.

Anyone care to share? Thanks for your thoughts.

Simon Woodhouse · May 18, 2006

There are three people involved here, yourself and the two readers, so why not look at it as a democratic thing. You hold the deciding vote, so in this case you're going to stick with what you've got.

Though receiving critiques is an invaluable tool, I think it's down to you to decide which way the story goes.

janetbellinger · May 18, 2006

Sarah Skilton said:
I recently completed the first draft of my novel, and handed it over to my small writing group for critique. The first reader thinks the structure -- which fluctuates each chapter from the past to the present -- needs a lot of work, and the second reader found the structure to be a compelling and natural facet of the story.

I'm leaning toward keeping it the way it is (surprise, surprise) but it made me curious about what other people do in this situation, i.e. when two readers, both of whom you respect as writers, entertain completely opposite reactions.

Anyone care to share? Thanks for your thoughts.

I think I would give more credence to the reader who had the most writing experience.

DamaNegra · May 18, 2006

I'd get a third reader and go with what two out of three think. Kind of like going to another doctor to get a second opinion. Just to be sure of what the mayority of your readers will think of it.

zeprosnepsid · May 18, 2006

I want to say -- it's only two people. If you ask a third -- then it's still only three people. I wouldn't change anything solely on the advice of just a couple people.

You're the only person who really knows your story. Usually when you get advice that you think is true in relation to your story you know right away. It clicks.

But also, I don't think those two people's advise are opposing. The structure may be natural and fantastic, but maybe it does need a little more work so that other readers can follow it better.

ChaosTitan · May 18, 2006

Sarah Skilton said:
The first reader thinks the structure -- which fluctuates each chapter from the past to the present -- needs a lot of work,

Did you ask this first reader if s/he dislikes that type of structure? Our own person quirks and squicks can sneak in and alter our objectivity when we least expect it. I tend to dislike that sort of story structure. I'd like to think it wouldn't affect my critique (if I was critiquing that sort of manuscript), but I'm only human.

Sarah Skilton · May 18, 2006

Simon Woodhouse said:
There are three people involved here, yourself and the two readers, so why not look at it as a democratic thing. You hold the deciding vote, so in this case you're going to stick with what you've got.

Though receiving critiques is an invaluable tool, I think it's down to you to decide which way the story goes.

Thanks for your thoughts. I was thinking of myself as the tie-breaker, too.

Sarah Skilton · May 18, 2006

zeprosnepsid said:
But also, I don't think those two people's advise are opposing. The structure may be natural and fantastic, but maybe it does need a little more work so that other readers can follow it better.

Yes, good point. I will probably end up tweaking it for clarity but keeping the back-and-forth as is. Thanks for responding!

Sarah Skilton · May 18, 2006

DamaNegra said:
I'd get a third reader and go with what two out of three think. Kind of like going to another doctor to get a second opinion. Just to be sure of what the mayority of your readers will think of it.

These were simply the first two people to read the full text, and I found it interesting that they held opposing views on this one topic. I plan on getting several more critiques down the road and seeing if patterns emerge on this and other issues. Thanks a lot for your thoughts!

Linda Adams · May 18, 2006

Think on it before doing anything and get more critiques. One of the things I've noticed is that many people will find something that doesn't work, but they really won't know what it is. So they go searching for a problem--or a perceived problem--and miss what actually is the problem. The more critiques you get, the better you'll be able to see if there is something that can be improved on.

Nangleator · May 18, 2006

I agree with Linda Adams, and that reiterates Uncle Jim's comment that if a beta reader says something is wrong, don't necessarily go with their analysis of the problem, but recognize that there is simply a problem.

On the other hand, I think your more critical reader is making a mistake. Not all parts of every book are entirely comfortabe, or should be. Your critical reader wants to know what happens in the next scene, and feels anxiety about jumping back in time.

It's also uncomfortable to see the hero run into obstacles, but you wouldn't pull that out of the story!

Ted · May 18, 2006

Get a couple of readers who are not writers, editors or in the business but who are avid readers. See how that goes.

Can't hurt.

Sarah Skilton · May 18, 2006

Linda Adams said:
Think on it before doing anything and get more critiques. One of the things I've noticed is that many people will find something that doesn't work, but they really won't know what it is. So they go searching for a problem--or a perceived problem--and miss what actually is the problem. The more critiques you get, the better you'll be able to see if there is something that can be improved on.

Great advice, Linda. Thanks for your thoughts.

Sarah Skilton · May 18, 2006

Nangleator said:
I agree with Linda Adams, and that reiterates Uncle Jim's comment that if a beta reader says something is wrong, don't necessarily go with their analysis of the problem, but recognize that there is simply a problem.

On the other hand, I think your more critical reader is making a mistake. Not all parts of every book are entirely comfortabe, or should be. Your critical reader wants to know what happens in the next scene, and feels anxiety about jumping back in time.

It's also uncomfortable to see the hero run into obstacles, but you wouldn't pull that out of the story!

All excellent points. You've given me a lot to think about, and I really appreciate it!

Sarah Skilton · May 18, 2006

Ted said:
Get a couple of readers who are not writers, editors or in the business but who are avid readers. See how that goes.

Can't hurt.

Absolutely. I think that's a very good idea, and I plan on ambushing, er, soliciting several of my non-writer friends this summer. Thanks for the help!

maestrowork · May 18, 2006

Ask more betas.

Do you trust the two critters equally?

When it comes down to it, it's all a matter of "opinions." You as the writer must analyze their "opinions" and form your own judgment. If you're not sure, ask for second or third or fourth opinion. Then decide.

At least that would be my approach.

Summonere · May 18, 2006

...opinions...

Sarah Skilton:

Ah, what to do when test readers disagree about a story...

Trust that they have an opinion, but go with your own feelings regarding the work. Write it in a way that makes you happy, a way that you understand, a way that makes sense to your sense of story.

Two opinions, after all, aren’t much.

To pin this down a little more, you might ask the one who thinks your story is a mess to name half a dozen stories that do the same thing you’re doing. This shouldn’t be hard at all, and if it is, well, you’ve probably identified why that reader has problems with your story. If the reader can name those half dozen stories, ask the reader to explain why those work and yours doesn’t. If the reader doesn’t think those stories work, well, maybe you’ve identified another reason why there’s trouble in opinion paradise...

Sounds like the other reader agrees with you, probably even gets the structure, so this one’s opinions are nice to hear.

But you’ll have a better gauge for how successful, or not, your storytelling approach has been when more who have read the story comment upon it.

In the end, you can only make use of advice you understand.

Here’s a starter set of titles that employ non-chronological storytelling, just for curiosity’s sake:

The Quiet American – Graham Greene
Vellum – Hal Duncan
Cities of the Red Night – William S. Burroughs
Slaughterhouse Five – Kurt Vonnegut
Now Wait For Last Year – Philip K. Dick
The Good Soldier – Ford Madox Ford

-- cheers

Sarah Skilton · May 19, 2006

maestrowork said:
Ask more betas.

Do you trust the two critters equally?

When it comes down to it, it's all a matter of "opinions." You as the writer must analyze their "opinions" and form your own judgment. If you're not sure, ask for second or third or fourth opinion. Then decide.

At least that would be my approach.

Thanks, Ray. That makes good sense, re: trust, and the fact that it's all ultimately opinion. I think my mind was reeling b/c the first two critiques were basically dead-opposite, and it was a bit of a shock. Thanks for chiming in!

Sarah Skilton · May 19, 2006

Summonere said:
Here’s a starter set of titles that employ non-chronological storytelling, just for curiosity’s sake:

The Quiet American – Graham Greene
Vellum – Hal Duncan
Cities of the Red Night – William S. Burroughs
Slaughterhouse Five – Kurt Vonnegut
Now Wait For Last Year – Philip K. Dick
The Good Soldier – Ford Madox Ford

-- cheers

You are a doll! Thank you for the insight and the list of non-chron titles, this is very helpful.

Gillhoughly · May 19, 2006

What Ted said. Feedback from regular readers is valuable. Make sure they understand you're not going for an egoboo, but trying to make your book better.

And get at least 2-3 other writers to beta your baby. Figuring out what to do based on two opposing opinions just ain't enough.

I was in a writers group where an elderly man was recounting a stint he did in a POW camp in Germany. It had a powerful scene where several of his teeth were yanked out by pliers in an effort to get him to talk. It was brutal, simply written, ringing with truth.

During the commentary phase we were hushed and in awe of what he'd gone through as a very young man. It was clear he now wore dentures due to his abuse half a century ago.

Then the group's perennially clueless moron stood up and stated he thought the whole thing sounded fake and that the guy should watch Marathon Man so he could see how to write it correctly since Dustin Hoffman was such a good actor.

The elderly man just looked at him. God knows what was going through his head, but I was wincing.

The kid was not invited back.

The cautionary point being--always get more than two opinions!
-

arrowqueen · May 19, 2006

At the risk of sounding rude: bollocks!

The only people whose opinions matter are: agents. editors and publishers.

Besides, you're a writer. We don't really listen to any bugger.

blackbird · May 20, 2006

Here's the thing about critiques: I usually know right away, as soon as I've written something, whether it works for me, if it's "iffy" for me or if something about it just plain bugs me and doesn't feel right. I tend to go with a critique if I'm able to say, in hindsight, "Yes, I can see that...I know where you're coming from." If, on the other hand, it's something I feel strongly about, I'm not as apt to make the change just because one or two people say so. On the other hand, however, if reader after reader keeps bringing up the same issue (or issues) then I realize it's probably something that warrants my attention, no matter how attached to the passage or concept I am.

slobbit · May 20, 2006

I agree with getting more opinions, and would add that you should pay attention to your gut. I often feel a little hitch of recognition when a critter points out something I subconsciously knew was a problem. The feeling is often stronger if the wrongness was a particular darling of mine I was holding onto out of love, not usefulness.

triceretops · May 20, 2006

Sarah, you're very sweet, and at the risk of sticking my neck out, let me ask you a question: Are you switching past and present tense in alternating chapters? And if you are, I'm compelled to ask why you're doing this. This seems very strange to me. Believe it or not, most editors I know frown on present tense all by its little old lonesome. But...when you mix two of them....oh, boy. Now I'm not real familiar with this style/trend, if that is what you want to call it. But in just my own experience, I feel that this might be a mistake.

Can somebody jump in here and explain this to me, if in fact this literary structure is being commonly used today? I stand to be corrected.

I'm sorry, I'm from the old school, and can't wrap my brain matter around this one. I'm tempted to have reader number one validated if this turns out to be a major boo-boo.

Tri

Lady of Prose · May 20, 2006

Sarah Skilton said:
which fluctuates each chapter from the past to the present --

Sarah, I don't think I understand entirely what you are saying here. Are you saying that you are using flashback and jumping to the present in every chapter? If so, this is a very tricky style of writing and has to be done expertly or you can lose the reader.

Opposing Critiques

Sarah Skilton

Simon Woodhouse

janetbellinger

DamaNegra

Mexican on the loose!

zeprosnepsid

ChaosTitan

Around

Sarah Skilton

Sarah Skilton

Sarah Skilton

Linda Adams

Soldier, Storyteller

Nangleator

Rep Point Whore

Ted

Sarah Skilton

Sarah Skilton

Sarah Skilton

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Summonere

Sarah Skilton

Sarah Skilton

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

arrowqueen

RIP, our sarky besom

blackbird

slobbit

triceretops

Lady of Prose

Member - the "Sting Gang."