Publishing rights

stumpfoot · May 15, 2006

Back in the early seventies my father was in prison in california. He and his twin brother got swept up in some corruption in the california penal system that involved the black panthers and a militant named George Jackson. A couple of books were written as well as a spread in rolling stone magazine.
In the early eighties my father wrote his own book about his experiences during that time in his life. My father knew a man from that time who was very intrested in the story and when my father wrote the book he agreed to try and get it published for him. The man was trustworthy as he was a friend but he was an advertisment exec at some company in Chicago, not an agent. My father had no knoweldge of the publishing Biz at the time. Still doesnt. So he sold the rights to the book to this man for $250.00
It has been 22 years since he sold the rights. The man has done nothing with the manuscrpit and we dont even know if he's still alive and have no contact info. My dad still has a copy of his book and would really like to do something with it. So after a lengthy intro here is my question; How does my father go about getting the rights back, is there a time limit or did this man by the rights for life? When someone buys the right (and I am asuming that it's the right to publish the book) and they never do anything with the book for over two decades can my father legally pursue his right to get it published? any help would be very much appreciated. I wasnt sure if this was the right forum so if it needs to be moved I apoligize before hand, it looked to be the closest, thanks!

Aconite · May 15, 2006

stumpfoot, you're going to have to find out what rights were sold and under what terms. There's just no way to answer your questions otherwise. Once you know the terms, you can ask a lawyer with experience with intellectual property and publishing what might be possible.

It's likely that your father could write a different book about the same experiences and get that published. Check with an intellectual-property lawyer to be sure.

stumpfoot · May 15, 2006

I'm not sure what rights or terms were stated in the deal right now but is there any kind of statute of limitations? There is on copywrites. It would seem after 22 plus years that something would have been done to renew the rights. I thought that I had read somwhere that when someone had purchsed movie rights to a book that every so often they had to be renewed. is that law or is it just something thats put into the agreement at the time of purchase?

Popeyesays · May 15, 2006

stumpfoot said:
I'm not sure what rights or terms were stated in the deal right now but is there any kind of statute of limitations? There is on copywrites. It would seem after 22 plus years that something would have been done to renew the rights. I thought that I had read somwhere that when someone had purchsed movie rights to a book that every so often they had to be renewed. is that law or is it just something thats put into the agreement at the time of purchase?

The chances are that if he SOLD the book - flat out, then all copywrites would belong to the person who bought it.

Let your father take his old manuscript and re-write significantly, or YOU re-write it as your father's story. Then it would be a different piece of work and you could probably proceed from there.

Regards,
Scott

aruna · May 15, 2006

Wasn't there a written contract? If so what does it say?

If it's a proper publishing contract, chances are that the rights were freed up when the other guy did not publish. ALL of my publishers' contracts include a clause saying they have to publish within a certain time limit, usually 12 - 18 months. So even after receiving my advances, if they had not published I'd have regained my rights. It's a pretty clear matter.

If there is no written contract - and it sounds like that, from what you wrote - there's no problem.

Garpy · May 16, 2006

let me preface this by saying I'm no expert... ...but even if the guy drew up a contract that meant he had rights for life, I bet you'd find that could be challenged in a court as some form of sharp practice, and negated. There's no way on earth, that it could be considered fair play to grab rights for eternity for $250.

stumpfoot · May 16, 2006

Thanks for all the responses! I agree that 250.00 seems like highway robbery. I'm going off memory here but I'm going to talk to my dad and see what he remembers. But from what I got it was all done over the phone, a check was sent along with something to sign and it was done. I remember the man had tried to get united artists intrested in a movie deal and they did toy around with the idea, but finally was shelved. The thing I remember was that the movie studio was sending letters to my dad. Now if he had no rights what so ever it seems strange they would deal with him at all. anyway I might be speculating here, I need to talk to him some more and get back to you all on this.

Aconite · May 16, 2006

Guys, it's very dangerous to assume the lack of a written contract or the small amount of money means the rights do or could belong to the seller again. stumpfoot, you really need to talk to a lawyer about this, and one familiar with intellectual property law. There is no statute of limitations in the way that you mean (copyright is a completely different kettle of fish than publishing rights), and if your father made a bad deal, I doubt a court would void the contract just because of that.

Be careful here. Just because you're frustrated or think something should be different, it doesn't change the law, and you really need expert advice. Good luck.

stumpfoot · May 16, 2006

More speculation on my part, please bear with me. what if this person has passed on? it has been on the shelf for more than two decades. can he pass on the ownership to his children? I suppose the answer is yes to that. It's to bad we cant find him or his family and just hash something out with them. it's terrible that my dad wrote this book and now probably wont ever get the chance to see it in print. I remember as a kid him sitting at the kitchen table writing the whole thing out in long hand, we didnt own a typewriter. when he finally got one he chicken pecked out a typed copy. it was a lot of work for him, took a long time.

aruna · May 16, 2006

Aconite said:
Guys, it's very dangerous to assume the lack of a written contract or the small amount of money means the rights do or could belong to the seller again. .

For me, the amount of time, more than the amoutn of money, that has passed without anything happening that counts. Though stumpfoot should indeed seek legal advice, I feel quite confident that the publishing rights have reverted back to him long ago.

Aconite · May 16, 2006

aruna said:
For me, the amount of time, more than the amoutn of money, that has passed without anything happening that counts. Though stumpfoot should indeed seek legal advice, I feel quite confident that the publishing rights have reverted back to him long ago.

Unless there was a reversion clause in the contract, I'm not so sure.

stumpoot, yes, publishing rights can be passed on to heirs, which don't have to be the man's relatives. This can get really complicated, which is why you need to talk to a lawyer.

While someone may have the rights to your dad's book, they almost certainly don't have the rights to his story. He can tell the story in his own words in a different book, not copying how he told it the first time, and sell that one to a different publisher. That might be better anyway, since if your dad wrote the book twenty years ago, it's probably pretty dated and could do with an update.

L.Jones · May 16, 2006

Aconite said:
Guys, it's very dangerous to assume the lack of a written contract or the small amount of money means the rights do or could belong to the seller again.quote]
... Isn't that a bit alarmist? Dangerous? Sheesh, what is going to happen? A lawsuit? Unless you are Dan Brown it's not worth the effort or the money but even if the unknown rights buyer did follow up what is going to happen that would prove dangerous? While getting legal advice from the internet is probably a very bad idea, this kind of thing seems to fall more under the common sense and practice header...An intellectual rights lawyer?Just seems a lot of expense and bother for something stumpfoot hasn't even shopped around. We all know that getting a book published is not a snap. ..I'd say move forward with the project, gather any information you have and act on anything that you can then proceed. In the end, the man might have sold the rights to that book (but I'm with those who say an actual legal contract has limitations and expectations, this is long past the point of a reasonable reversion of rights) but he didn't sell his LIFE. Just take the book and rewrite it -- after all this time it surely needs that and might benefit from the wisdom of hindsight.
annieLuanne Jones

Aconite · May 16, 2006

I did not say the consequences were dangerous. I said it was dangerous to make the assumption.

ETA: Personally, I've never found "You could get away with it, so don't sweat it" to be an ethical way to approach anything. If I sold those rights, I wouldn't feel I had some intrinsic right to publish the book now simply because I wanted to and the agreement was inconvenient. I would feel I was bound by my word, and needed to figure out what to do within the bounds of what I had agreed to.

L.Jones · May 16, 2006

Aconite said:
I did not say the consequences were dangerous. I said it was dangerous to make the assumption.

ETA: Personally, I've never found "You could get away with it, so don't sweat it" to be an ethical way to approach anything. If I sold those rights, I wouldn't feel I had some intrinsic right to publish the book now simply because I wanted to and the agreement was inconvenient. I would feel I was bound by my word, and needed to figure out what to do within the bounds of what I had agreed to.

No one is suggesting anything unethical, I said do what you can and move forward, don't waste time and money on bringing in lawyers, take a different path. This is for a project that isn't even in the submission stage from what I gather, so as long as they have made attempts to clear this up it doesn't seem untoward to tell the father's life story, regardless of this so called 'deal'.Myself and others have said rewrite the story of the father's esperience, not try to sell the same book and 'get away with it'.annieLuanne Jones
why are my posts all bunched up?

Tilly · May 16, 2006

I should think it would still be essential to talk to a lawyer about how much would need to be changed to make sure it was a new work and not still bound by the original agreement.

Aconite · May 16, 2006

Luanne, we're still having technical glitches from the database upgrade. If you go to the Tech Help forum, you'll find a thread for reporting glitches, and some advice on fixing them.

jules · May 16, 2006

First off, I ain't a lawyer. I've read some textbooks and discussed a few things with lawyers, but that doesn't mean I'm qualified to offer legal advice. Take everything I say with a tonne of salt.

Secondly, the law I do know about is mainly UK law. I do follow US intellectual property law with interest, but I know next to nothing outside of that narrow field. But I know that US law is based on the same fundamental principles as UK law, so a lot of what I say now will apply.

Alright, here goes:

When the guy sent the cheque to your dad, a contract was formed. Contracts are agreements between two people that say one will do something for the other, and the other will do something in exchange.
That the contract exists is indisputable, because the payment was given and accepted. This means you can't make any arguments about whether the payment was satisfactory, etc. It is deemed to be because the terms were originally accepted.
The contract may have been for a transfer of copyright. In this case there is nothing you can do to reverse it; the copyright has been sold.
Alternatively, the contract may have been for exclusive publishing rights (which is what most publishers would buy). At this point the rights may have terminated. Even if there isn't a termination clause in the original contract, you may be able to argue that there should be an implied term allowing termination, because it's an industry standard that there is one. This would be a tricky court case, but might succeed.
The contract also might be an agency contract, specifying that the guy will try to sell rights in the manuscript in exchange for a cut of the proceeds. This is unlikely, because it is unusual to pay upfront for such a contract, but if it is it could probably be cancelled due to the agent's failure to perform for an extended period of time.
If it can't easily be told which of these the contract was (perhaps it was verbal and your father doesn't remember in enough detail) then that can become a matter of argument. The small payment could weigh in favour of (4) rather than (3) being the case.

My advice is that if the case is (3), forget about it. Otherwise, consult a lawyer.

aruna · May 16, 2006

Aconite said:
While someone may have the rights to your dad's book, they almost certainly don't have the rights to his story. He can tell the story in his own words in a different book, not copying how he told it the first time, and sell that one to a different publisher. That might be better anyway, since if your dad wrote the book twenty years ago, it's probably pretty dated and could do with an update.

And unless your Dad is a writer it's anyway likely that the exsting manuscript is not up to today's publishing standards. I'd say rewrite from scratch.

JanDarby · May 16, 2006

Well, I am a lawyer (although not giving individual advice here, just general information), and Jules has the basics pretty much correct. And any advice given here is highly speculative, since we haven't seen the contract or heard the father's description of what he agreed to.

Bottom line: you need to see whatever was signed (you said he sent a check and got something back to be signed), or a summary of your father's recollection of what he agreed to (what he'd testify to, with respect to an oral agreement) to know what the terms of the agreement were, and then you need to have an intellectual property lawyer look at the paper or the gist of your father's testimony.

You might be able to get a free consultation -- many lawyers offer a half-hour initial appointment for free, so you can get to know him/her, and get a quick opinion on whether it's worth going further; at most, they'll charge you their hourly rate for the time, so you'd be looking at something like a hundred bucks for a half hour. Bring the thing your father signed, and get a definitive answer.

The thing is, writing a book -- even just editing it or shopping it around -- is time-intensive, and time = money. Why go further with it (unless you just want to create a self-pubbed book for family use, which is a whole 'nother ball of wax), edit it, find a publisher, get ready to sign the gazillion-dollar contract, only to then go see a lawyer and find out you don't have the rights to sell it?

JD

stumpfoot · May 16, 2006

Alright I talked to my dad today and this is what he said. It sounds as if it was some sort of power of attorny contract where if he published the book he got 50% and my dad got the other. If my dad published then the other guy still got 50% and my dad got the other 50%. So it sounds as if he was acting as an agent and had not outright purchased all the rights to the book. 50%! doesnt sound like this guy was much of a friend. When I told my dad that an agent gets about 15% he just got kind of quiet and said, well I guess he wanted a lot didnt he? But he could not remember if there was a time limit on the agreement. anybody know anything about power of attornys?

Popeyesays · May 16, 2006

stumpfoot said:
Alright I talked to my dad today and this is what he said. It sounds as if it was some sort of power of attorny contract where if he published the book he got 50% and my dad got the other. If my dad published then the other guy still got 50% and my dad got the other 50%. So it sounds as if he was acting as an agent and had not outright purchased all the rights to the book. 50%! doesnt sound like this guy was much of a friend. When I told my dad that an agent gets about 15% he just got kind of quiet and said, well I guess he wanted a lot didnt he? But he could not remember if there was a time limit on the agreement. anybody know anything about power of attornys?

A power of attorney is like a contract in some ways. Usually it has particular circumstances in which it can be evoked. If there is no time limit on the document, a court may decide that without a time limit it can't be invoked after one year, two years - five years, whatever. Find an attorny.
Then ask him how a p[ower of attorney can be cancelled after such a long time. I am willing to wager that it can be killed pretty easily. But you'll never make a step of progress if you do not find an attorney to guide you through it.

Regards,

Scott

stumpfoot · May 16, 2006

Intresting. It sounds as though a POA might be little easier to deal with then a full on selling of the rights issue though.

JanDarby · May 16, 2006

Any answers here would be pure speculation. Someone qualified (ideally an intellectual property lawyer) needs to look at the actual power of attorney (or whatever the document is, because you still haven't seen it) and review it in the context of the applicable law, which varies from state to state.

JD

Liam Jackson · May 16, 2006

What Jan said. Answers given here are offered in good faith, and some of the opinions regarding rights and intellectual property may be dead on. However, it will likely require a good attorney and the courts to resolve your situation. Best of luck.

James D. Macdonald · May 16, 2006

Please note that it's copyright, not copywrite.

The term of copyright is the author's life plus seventy years.

Publishing rights

stumpfoot

Aconite

stumpfoot

Popeyesays

Now departed. Rest in peace, Scott, from all of us

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

Garpy

keyboard monkey

stumpfoot

Aconite

stumpfoot

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

Aconite

L.Jones

Aconite

L.Jones

Tilly

Aconite

jules

Bored fanatic

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

JanDarby

stumpfoot

Popeyesays

Now departed. Rest in peace, Scott, from all of us

stumpfoot

JanDarby

Liam Jackson

Heathen Horde Elder

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle