Reality Check (Submission Guidelines)

unthoughtknown · May 13, 2006

Well, well, well...

My plan was to write my novel first and worry about the submission guidelines after that. Last night, I got curious and checked out the guidelines on the Random House site (Aussie division). Excerpt below. Um. Am stunned that they're expecting you to be some kind of mini-marketer as well.

Sigh. I believe in my story. And I thought that, along with it being written well (of course), was enough. Man, those guidelines freak me out. I shall not be discouraged, though.

Submitting your manuscript:
If after reviewing the information above you decide to submit your proposal to Random House Australia please enclose the following:
1. A covering letter that addresses the following:
• How you came to write the book.
• Describe the market for your proposed book.
• How does your proposed book fit into the market.
• List similar books that are already in print.
• Explain how your proposal differs from existing books in the market.
• Provide an idea as to how comparable books have sold in bookshops.
• List any additional markets that your proposed book could sell in, besides bookstores.
• Explain how you would promote your book, whether or not you have media or corporate contacts or contacts that would help us in publicising and marketing your book.
• Describe what sections of society would be interested in what you have written.
2. A synopsis of your proposed book.
3. Your current curriculum vitae.

DeniseK · May 13, 2006

Those read like non fiction guidelines. Check again.

Perks · May 13, 2006

Hey, Jen are you sure that's for fiction? Those guidelines sound like non-fiction to me.

ETA - Lol! Denise, great mind's think alike.

unthoughtknown · May 13, 2006

Hey peeps, do you think?

Got it from here: http://www.randomhouse.com.au/faq/submit.htm

Duncan J Macdonald · May 13, 2006

I checked out their site, and got to the submissions FAQ. Looks to me that they do not accept un-agented manuscripts from unpublished authors.

Random House Australia imprints and genres:
• Knopf: hardcover literary fiction and non fiction, biography, memoir
• Vintage: paperback literary fiction and non fiction, biography, memoir
• Random House: general fiction and non-fiction, business and personal finance, sport, popular culture, humour and children’s
• Arrow: mass market commercial paperback fiction, fantasy, thriller
• Bantam: popular fiction non-fiction and biography, travel narrative, new age, self-help
• Doubleday: parenting, health

Not accepted:
• Poetry
• Educational material
• Short stories
• Fiction from previously unpublished authors

and then

Information for unpublished fiction authors:
Random House Australia will accept submissions from unpublished fiction authors if they are submitted via a literary agent or if the manuscript has obtained a positive assessment from an accredited manuscript assessment agency.
The Australian Society of Authors has information about literary agencies on its website (www.asauthors.org) together with other useful information about getting published.

Contact details for some of the manuscript assessment agencies that we are aware of are:
The Manuscript Appraisal Agency.
Ph: (02) 4384 4466
The Fellowship of Australian Writers.
Ph: (02) 9810 1307
Lynk Manuscript Assessment Service.
Ph: (03) 5257 3281

They go on to say, in addition to what was originally posted, that you also submit

4. Three (3) chapters (not necessarily consecutive) or at least 50 pages on white A4 paper, double spaced, not bound.
5. A stamped, self-addressed envelope or postpak for the return of your material. Your material will not be returned otherwise.

Click to expand...

I would expect that agents familiar with Random House AUstralia know what to put in the various responses for a work of fiction. For example, and one completely pulled out of nowhere, say I have written the bestest young-wizard-fights-against-EEEEEVIL book in the known world. The answer to

Provide an idea as to how comparable books have sold in bookshops.

Click to expand...

would be "Remember that Rowlings woman? Yeah, her. Pikers, the lot of them. 20 million copies in the first day, piffle. Watch this one!"

Your Milage May Vary. Be advised that I have not written such a book. I am not an agent, nor am I connected to one in a romantic way.

unthoughtknown · May 13, 2006

Hi Duncan,

Yep, saw that, too. Will decide on agent or assessment avenue at a later date. Saw the assessment option as a plus (and probably better than outlaying costs for an agent), actually.

Bufty · May 13, 2006

What exactly is an accredited manuscript assessment agency?

unthoughtknown · May 13, 2006

Bufty said:
What exactly is an accredited manuscript assessment agency?

Something Aussie-specific and tedious by the sounds of it.

On a serious note, while American publishing houses won't take on unpublished writers without an agent, some houses in AussieLand will actually take unsolicited manuscripts. The assessement thing was news to me when I saw it on the web site; but I did see it as advantageous...

Anyway, that's how I understood things to be. I'm new at all of this.

DeniseK · May 13, 2006

I think that may be the oddest thing I've ever seen on a publisher's website, those read just like every non-fiction guideline I've ever seen. How do you write a proposal for a novel? :Wha:

Jamesaritchie · May 13, 2006

jen.nifer said:
Hi Duncan,

Yep, saw that, too. Will decide on agent or assessment avenue at a later date. Saw the assessment option as a plus (and probably better than outlaying costs for an agent), actually.

What outlaying costs for an agent? Agents don't cost you money, they make you money. Lots of it.

unthoughtknown · May 13, 2006

Ah, ok, I have no idea how literary agents work. I thought there was an initial cost or something... haven't done my research yet. Don't even know which agent I will query. Just want to write this damn thing first.

jchines · May 13, 2006

Okay, everyone together now:

"Money flows toward the writer."

Seriously, an agent will take 15% of whatever s/he makes by selling your books*. The agent will also deduct reasonable expenses for marketing it (postage, photocopying, etc.), but this will not happen until after the book is sold. If it doesn't sell, the agent makes no money.

I think you're right though. Finish the book. Don't stress about agents and publishers until it's ready to go.

*20% for foreign sales.

Jamesaritchie · May 13, 2006

Agents

jen.nifer said:
Ah, ok, I have no idea how literary agents work. I thought there was an initial cost or something... haven't done my research yet. Don't even know which agent I will query. Just want to write this damn thing first.

No, there is no initial cost for an agent. Never give an agent a dime. An agent who asks for money before something is sold is not a good agent, to say teh least.

All money an agent receives should come from the sale of a book. Nearly all agents charge a 15% commission, but any good agent will get you a better advance, possibly better royalties, and a better contract than you could get for yourself. This means you will actually make more money, receive a better deal, and have a much easier time selling other rights if you have an agent.

maestrowork · May 13, 2006

What they say. It's an agent's incentive to recover his cost (and earn his commission) by SELLING your darn book for a nice advance.

pdr · May 13, 2006

This is an American site...

Jennifer. The people here talk mainly about US publishing and not about our publishers and our world.

In America writers scream at the idea of an accredited manuscript assessment agency. They tend to call 'em Book Doctors and snort about the waste of money paying for something you can do yourself.

In NZ, OZ, the UK, and the rest of the Commonwealth you don't need an agent. You are encouraged to have your manuscript vetted by an accredited manuscript assessment agency because the report from such an agency tells you that your novel needs more work or is okay to go to the publisher.

Publishers in the Commonwealth like to see a report from an accredited manuscript assessment agency because it saves them time. Your work isn't slush pile if it has a good report from an accredited manuscript assessment agency and will be read.

An accredited manuscript assessment agency is run by retired publishers, publishers' editors, or other peole with knowledge and expertise that publishers recognise. Often they are scouts for an agent or publisher. They know what publishable writing is.

James et al here work mainly in America and need agents.

We have a different publishing system and as a new novelist it wouldn't hurt for you to check in at your OZ Soc of Authors and read what they say about it all.

aruna · May 14, 2006

pdr said:
In NZ, OZ, the UK, and the rest of the Commonwealth you don't need an agent. You are encouraged to have your manuscript vetted by an accredited manuscript assessment agency because the report from such an agency tells you that your novel needs more work or is okay to go to the publisher.

.

This is only partly right, at least as far as the UK is concerned. It's true that manuscript asessment agencies are accepted here. I used a very good one (Hilary Johnson, www.hilaryjohnson.com ) and I was more than pleased with her work. She helped me to bring it up to standard for a very reasonable fee, and when that was done she put me in touch with a good agent. I know of another assessment agency which is even govenrment supported, in that the government (probably the Royal Literary Trust) helps needy authors with the fees. This is all above board and perfectly legit, and for me, alone in the world as I was at the time, it was by far the best way to go.

But you DO need an agent in the UK. I tried for a year to find publisher for my 4th ms, and it's true that two big publishers read my work; but that's about it, at least as far as the big ones are converned. The agency culture is as alive and kicking in the UK as in the US.

In the rest of Europe, on the other hand, most writers don't have an agent

DeniseK · May 14, 2006

Well, can one of you answer my question. How do you write a proposal for a novel? In America, a proposal means what it says, you propose how you will write the book. Those guidelines all fit the definition of non-fiction guidelines here in America. Why do they apply to novels in the UK?

That's two questions.

Solange Blue · May 14, 2006

DeniseK said:
Well, can one of you answer my question. How do you write a proposal for a novel? In America, a proposal means what it says, you propose how you will write the book. Those guidelines all fit the definition of non-fiction guidelines here in America. Why do they apply to novels in the UK?

That's two questions.

You don't write a proposal for a novel. First, you write the novel. Then you write a query letter. A query letter doesn't "propose" the novel, it introduces it, and you, to potential agents and/or publishers. Query letters follow guidelines and there are many wonderful resources to tell you how to write one.

No publisher will give an unpublished writer an advance for a proposed book. If you are lucky with your query, someone may ask for a partial (a certain amount of pages, usually accompanied with an outline).

I work in the film industry and what might be called a proposal, is called a pitch. These are verbal and it's possible to get money out of just a pitch. I was sitting a table when an A list writer pitched a project, the Exec nodded, and an assistant came back with a six figure check. The book world, with few exceptions, wants to see the work first.

I wrote a non-fiction book but I had to go through the whole proposal process even though the book was finished. The publishers wanted to work with the writer early in the process; they were not interested in just reading it. They did accept my proposal as written BUT they asked for a couple of additional chapters which I thought was a fun idea. Working on a non-fiction book with a publishing house is great fun -- almost collaborative.

That's my experience... I'm sure the more experienced novelists will correct me if I'm wrong.

SeanDSchaffer · May 14, 2006

Solange Blue,

First, welcome to AW. I hope you enjoy the forums.

Second, I think what DeniseK is trying to find out, is how the differences between US publishing and publishing elsewhere in the world work. A couple posters have said that fiction in Commonwealth countries is written with a proposal, much like non-fiction is in the United States. So what Denise, I think, is curious about, is the process behind writing the said proposal for fiction in countries outside the US.

I'm actually a bit curious myself as to how all this stuff works.

aruna · May 14, 2006

SeanDSchaffer said:
Solange Blue,

First, welcome to AW. I hope you enjoy the forums.

Second, I think what DeniseK is trying to find out, is how the differences between US publishing and publishing elsewhere in the world work. A couple posters have said that fiction in Commonwealth countries is written with a proposal, much like non-fiction is in the United States. So what Denise, I think, is curious about, is the process behind writing the said proposal for fiction in countries outside the US.

I'm actually a bit curious myself as to how all this stuff works.

I understand the site to mean that the proposal is for non-fiction. The confusion comes because it is immeduately beneath the guidelines for fiction, but those are also pretty clear.

Jamesaritchie · May 14, 2006

pdr said:
Jennifer. The people here talk mainly about US publishing and not about our publishers and our world.

In America writers scream at the idea of an accredited manuscript assessment agency. They tend to call 'em Book Doctors and snort about the waste of money paying for something you can do yourself.

In NZ, OZ, the UK, and the rest of the Commonwealth you don't need an agent. You are encouraged to have your manuscript vetted by an accredited manuscript assessment agency because the report from such an agency tells you that your novel needs more work or is okay to go to the publisher.

Publishers in the Commonwealth like to see a report from an accredited manuscript assessment agency because it saves them time. Your work isn't slush pile if it has a good report from an accredited manuscript assessment agency and will be read.

An accredited manuscript assessment agency is run by retired publishers, publishers' editors, or other peole with knowledge and expertise that publishers recognise. Often they are scouts for an agent or publisher. They know what publishable writing is.

James et al here work mainly in America and need agents.

We have a different publishing system and as a new novelist it wouldn't hurt for you to check in at your OZ Soc of Authors and read what they say about it all.

Agents are just as imortant, and just as essential, in the UK, Canada, Austrailaia, etc., as they are in the US. It's true that a new writer can approach a big publisher easier is these countries, but it isn't true that you shouldn't do everything possible to find a good agent, no matter where you live. A good agent will still do a dozen things for a writer that the writer can't do for himself.

"Assessment agencies" can be useful in such places, but it's a mistake to think they replace an agent, or that they can do anywhere near as many things for a writer as an agent.

We tend to snort at what we call "book doctors" over here because it isn't true that most of them know what makes fiction pubishable, and the track record for novels that go through books doctors and "assessment agencies" is horrendous. Not much better at all than the track record for books that don't use them, and considerably worse than books that go through good agents.

The track record for novels that go through good agents, hwoever, is far, far better, no matter what country you're in. I'm less familiar with Austrailia, but in the UK and Canada, agents are extremely important, and any writer should do everything humanly possible to find a good one.

unthoughtknown · May 14, 2006

The process will be clarified for me at some point in the writing course that I'm enrolled in... I personally don't like the idea of the whole "book doctor" thing and would prefer to have an agent. I'll see what all the lecturers advise about this when I reach that particular module in the course.

Going back to the random house website, I'm thinking they maybe combined the fiction and non-fiction guidelines into one, just to keep it general on the site, even though the processes are different?

pdr · May 14, 2006

Just to be clear.

Selling your fiction to publishers in the Commonwealth is still done with a query letter, Sean.

Like Aruna, Jennifer, I checked the Random House OZ guidelines and I also think that the ones you posted are for non-fiction and the fiction guidelines are above these as Aruna pointed out. The last time I heard a Random House editor at a writers' conference the fiction guidelines were not like those you posted. Their non-fiction ones certainly are.

Just follow the guidelines, Jennifer. If RH want an assessment then give them one. You'll find that your OZ agents like a script to arrive with one too.

Have you read your annual markets book? It's got a great chapter on agents and manuscript assessors. 'the australian Writer's marketplace' 2006. (Yes, the title is without capitals except for the word writer's.) It's now published by the Queensland writers' association http://www.qwc.asn.au and lists markets, publishers and agents in OZ and our few NZ ones.

Where do you live Jennifer. Near Sydney? Have you been to the FAW centre in the city? Every State has a FAW - Federation of Australian Writers - they are very helpful, put out a good magazine with market and comp info and report on what's new in publishing. Just learn as much as you can about Australian publishing.

Every state also has a Name of State Writers' Association. They are very good too. Your Federal govt spends a lot (even though PM Howard's cut back) on writers' grants and courses. FAW and your WA will have the details. There are free writer's retreats and working holidays, all sorts of goodies you might enjoy. Take a look.

James, your US Book Doctors can be anyone. For us an accredited manuscript assessment agency is run by people from the publishing business who do know the business and are of great help. Often they act like your Beta readers, they certainly know what is publishable writing. (By that I mean writing of a publishable standard not writing that will be published.)

Used to your US system you, of course, think an agent is wonderful. But for new writers in our system (and these days maybe even your system?) is an agent going to be of as much help as yours is to you?

Most of these first books won't sell many copies, maybe they won't cover the advance, the second book will be even harder to sell and there is very little money in it for an agent.

Look at it in terms of the OZ or NZ publishing world. NZ has a population of 4 million, (that's two US cities) OZ has a population of approx. 25 million (that's the approx population of one US State).

A first book in hardcover may sell all of 400 copies in NZ and in OZ, maybe 1000.

Writers can't live on their earnings. Can an agent live off them? Writers in NZ and Oz have writers' associations with a legal expert who will vet their contracts for free and help the newbies through the process.

My SA writer friends say it is the same there.

For many of us in our smaller publishing worlds it is better to approach a publisher first then waste all the time chasing an agent who cannot really help us broker a bigger advance or a better deal.

This is not the USA publishing scene we are talking about.

unthoughtknown · May 14, 2006

pdr said:
Selling your fiction to publishers in the Commonwealth is still done with a query letter, Sean. Like Aruna, Jennifer, I checked the Random House OZ guidelines and I also think that the ones you posted are for non-fiction and the fiction guidelines are above these as Aruna pointed out. The last time I heard a Random House editor at a writers' conference the fiction guidelines were not like those you posted. Their non-fiction ones certainly are. Just follow the guidelines, Jennifer. If RH want an assessment then give them one. You'll find that your OZ agents like a script to arrive with one too. Have you read your annual markets book? It's got a great chapter on agents and manuscript assessors. 'the australian Writer's marketplace' 2006. (Yes, the title is without capitals except for the word writer's.) It's now published by the Queensland writers' association http://www.qwc.asn.au and lists markets, publishers and agents in OZ and our few NZ ones. Where do you live Jennifer. Near Sydney? Have you been to the FAW centre in the city? Every State has a FAW - Federation of Australian Writers - they are very helpful, put out a good magazine with market and comp info and report on what's new in publishing. Just learn as much as you can about Australian publishing. Every state also has a Name of State Writers' Association. They are very good too. Your Federal govt spends a lot (even though PM Howard's cut back) on writers' grants and courses. FAW and your WA will have the details. There are free writer's retreats and working holidays, all sorts of goodies you might enjoy. Take a look. James, your US Book Doctors can be anyone. For us an accredited manuscript assessment agency is run by people from the publishing business who do know the business and are of great help. Often they act like your Beta readers, they certainly know what is publishable writing. (By that I mean writing of a publishable standard not writing that will be published.) Used to your US system you, of course, think an agent is wonderful. But for new writers in our system (and these days maybe even your system?) is an agent going to be of as much help as yours is to you? Most of these first books won't sell many copies, maybe they won't cover the advance, the second book will be even harder to sell and there is very little money in it for an agent. Look at it in terms of the OZ or NZ publishing world. NZ has a population of 4 million, (that's two US cities) OZ has a population of approx. 25 million (that's the approx population of one US State). A first book in hardcover may sell all of 400 copies in NZ and maybe 1000 in OZ. Writers can't live on their earnings. Can an agent live off them? Writers in NZ and Oz have writers' associations with a legal expert who will vet their contracts for free and help the newbies through the process. My SA writer friends say it is the same there. For many of us in our smaller publishing worlds it is better to approach a publisher first then waste all the time chasing an agent who cannot really help us broker a bigger advance or a better deal. This is not the USA publishing scene we are talking about.

Thanks for your advice pdr.

I do have the marketplace book that you referred to... Like I said earlier, I haven't done my research yet as I'm just trying to get the book finished first. I initially went to the RH site on a whim and was surprised by the marketing element in their guidelines. (Which is why I started this thread in the first place.)

I'm in Adelaide and I am a member of the state's writing centre. I can get some decent support from there, I know.

So, BIC, for now. And I'll worrry about submission guidelines later.

SeanDSchaffer · May 14, 2006

Aruna; pdr

Thank you both for your clarification. I really do appreciate it.

Reality Check (Submission Guidelines)

unthoughtknown

practical experience, FTW

DeniseK

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower

unthoughtknown

practical experience, FTW

Duncan J Macdonald

Plotting! Not Plodding!

unthoughtknown

practical experience, FTW

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

unthoughtknown

practical experience, FTW

DeniseK

Jamesaritchie

unthoughtknown

practical experience, FTW

jchines

Got the hang of it, here

Jamesaritchie

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

pdr

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

DeniseK

Solange Blue

SeanDSchaffer

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

Jamesaritchie

unthoughtknown

practical experience, FTW

pdr

unthoughtknown

practical experience, FTW

SeanDSchaffer