Simsubs - how many at once?

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Luna

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Morning, all!

I was wondering if anyone would be willing to share their submission strategies. For instance, I've got one story out with Glimmer Train, and will no doubt sweat bullets until the verdict comes in 5-6 months, which seems to be their avg response time. Glimmer Train doesn't allow simultaneous submissions.

For most of my shorts, however, I choose four markets right off the bat that allow simsubs. As individual rejections come back, I submit to others, keeping four active at all times. Does that seem like a reasonable plan? Or is four too few, considering responses can take six to eight months from some publications (like Zoetrope)?
 

CaroGirl

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I never simsub, not even to contests, because almost all the guidelines for the magazines that I submit to don't allow it. Typically, I send out a blitz of about 4 or 5 stories to 4 or 5 mags, and play the waiting game. As rejections come in, I rework stories based on suggestions (if there are any, and if they're valid) and then do a re-blitz of the stories that didn't sell (which is all of them, to date, so maybe I'm not the right person to ask).

Good luck in whatever strategy you use.
 

Luna

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Published or not (me too), I definitely value your input.

I've only entered two contests so far, and wasn't aware that *any* of those accept simsubs, so I've learned something from this thread already.

Many thanks for sharing!
 
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C.H. Campbell

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Personally, as a relative newbie to writing, I'm not submitting anywhere that doesn't accept simsubs. My reasons for this, are as follows. If my stories are being rejected by the smaller ezines and such, then my chances of being accepted at a more prestigious magazine are greatly reduced. Also, I find it helps to keep in good spirits if you're getting feedback (even rejections) on a regular basis as opposed to having to wait 4-6 months. I've finally got a story thats due to be published in a smaller ezine, and that encourages me to write on. Unless you are the king of patience, start small and work your way up. Every story you place in a smaller mag makes you more attractive to the big ones. However, if you read Glimmer Train or another of it's like, and honestly feel that your writing is of the same calibre, give it a shot, sit back and wait. I've been making it a point to read authors that I know have a massive list of legitimate publishing credits, and can see what separates me from them, and I'm getting better for it. We all have different approaches, but that has been mine so far.
 

bsolah

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Although I've been writing for a while now, I'm relitively new to the submitting game. Three submissions (one of them was late, so it doesn't really count) and all of them rejections. I've been listening to a few writers I respect about publishing and writing and as I rule, I've found it better not to submit a story to more than one place, even if it is allowing simsubs.

The main reason is the technical hassle if more than one mag excepts your story. It sounds farfetched, but it does happen.

I like CaroGirl's suggestion of having a few stories out at once. That's the aim. I just have to get my *** into gear and actually ready all these half-baked stories for submission.
 

Mike Coombes

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Too few. If you're serious about shorts, it needs to be a continuous cycle - write, submit, write, submit... writing gives you something to think about while you wait for the rejections.
 

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bsolah said:
The main reason is the technical hassle if more than one mag excepts your story. It sounds farfetched, but it does happen.

.

Writing is my livelihood - my sole income - and I simsub my fiction on a regular basis. If all is fair in love and war, then it's fair in work as well. And it's far from fair to expect writers to wait months - or more - to hear on a single story.

The way that I have avoided the technical hassle noted above is that if a story I have submitted to more than one place is accepted, I immediately withdraw the story from other markets. If asked why, I'm upfront and explain.

There are exceptions to every rule and there are a few markets where I don't sim sub but they are few.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Sisubbing

I never sinsub, not even to markets that allow it. It simply isn't a very smart practice, to say the least. It does not help with sales, and the only thing that goes faster with simsubs is how fast you accumulate rejection slips. It absolutely does alienate editors, and if I say I don't allow simsubs, and you withdraw a story from consideration because you sold it somewhere else, you will never, ever sell me a short story. I don't care how good it is. It doesn't matter because I won't even read the next story you send. I'll let it gather dust for several months, and then I'll reject it unread.

No writer is forced to submit anything to me, but if they do then I expect them to follow guidelines. Simsubs cost me time and they cost me money, and you know in advance I don't want them, so do not send them. And you can bet many editors talk to each other, and writers who do not follow guidelines are high on teh lists of things we talk about.

The "waiting" excuse is nonsense. It's the mark of a pure amateur I don't want to deal with, don't have to deal with, and won't deal with. Period.

Very small magazines often allow simsubs, but it still doesn't help a bit to go this route, and hurts the writer far more than it helps him. It's just not a bright practice.

Real writers do not worry about waiting months because they're writing constantly, submitting constantly, and hear back from one magazine or another pretty much every week. Often two or three times per week.

Simsubbing almost guarantees your rejection rate will be far higher than it should be, and that the stories you do sell will be to tiny magazines. Simsubbing stops the writer from gaining valuable experience, and greatly reduces the chances the writer has to do rewrites and make revisions to editorial demand.

The one good thing about simsubs is that it usually doesn't take very long to figure out which writers are doing it, and to eliminate them from consideration. This does help reduce the slush pile.
 

Jamesaritchie

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C.H. Campbell said:
Personally, as a relative newbie to writing, I'm not submitting anywhere that doesn't accept simsubs. My reasons for this, are as follows. If my stories are being rejected by the smaller ezines and such, then my chances of being accepted at a more prestigious magazine are greatly reduced. Also, I find it helps to keep in good spirits if you're getting feedback (even rejections) on a regular basis as opposed to having to wait 4-6 months. I've finally got a story thats due to be published in a smaller ezine, and that encourages me to write on. Unless you are the king of patience, start small and work your way up. Every story you place in a smaller mag makes you more attractive to the big ones. However, if you read Glimmer Train or another of it's like, and honestly feel that your writing is of the same calibre, give it a shot, sit back and wait. I've been making it a point to read authors that I know have a massive list of legitimate publishing credits, and can see what separates me from them, and I'm getting better for it. We all have different approaches, but that has been mine so far.



Starting small and working your way up is the worst possible thing a writer can do. It guarantees that any story you sell will go to the worst possible magazine that wants it.

Few things are less important than how a writer feels about the quality of his own work. Not one writer in a hundred is objective enough about his own writing to judge it. Either teh writer see his writing as better than it is, or much worse than it really is. Either way, he's wrong. It's an editor's job to judge the quality of the writing, and the only way an editor can do his job is if the writer sends him the story and lets him read it.

It's a serious, and often deadly, mistake to think small magazines will buy bad stories. A story good enough to sell to a small magazine is probably good enough to sell to a top magazine, if you give the editor there a chance to read it.

Many a story has, in fact, been rejected by numerous tiny magazines, only to find a home in a national glossy. If a story has no quality at all, it won't sell anywhere. If it has quality, however, it will sell to the magazine where it fits best. Fit is the issue, not size. I've sold a couple of stories to national glossies that were rejected by well over a dozen tiny magazines, some that offered no pay at all.

Stories in small mags do not, in any way, make you more attractive to editors at large magazines. This is a myth. The only thing that makes you attractive to the editor at a large magazine is writing a story that editor believes his readers will love. If anything, having only a bunch of credits in small magazines makes you less attractive to editors at large magazines.

One fact is irrefutable. If you start at the top and work your way down, your story will sell to the best magazine that wants it. But if you start at the bottom and work your way up, your story will sell to the worst magazine that wants it. It can't work any other way because if you start at the bottom and work your way up, the worst magazines will see your story first, and they'll accept it before the better magazines ever see it.

It takes one heck of a lot more patience to start at the bottom and work your way up than to start at the top and work your way down. By starting at the bottom, odds are good you'll never reach the top.

Writers need to eliminate such words as "waiting," "patience," etc., from their vocabulary. They always mean the writer is concentrating on the wrong end of writing, and usually mean teh writer is doing everything possible to increase the need for patience, and the overall waiting time.

The way to win this game is to forget all about waiting time. If you write constantly, and submit constantly, it won't be very long before you're hearing back from one story or another pretty much every week. Sometimes two or three times per week. If you aren't writing and submitting constantly, not much else matters. All the patience in the world won't help.

Trust your ability, and stop comparing yourself to writers in Glimmer Train, or anywhere else. Editors already have those writers, and contrary to popular beief, they are not looking for more writers just like them. Start your stories at the top, pay attention to any feedback you get every step of teh way down the ladder, write and submit constantly, and if you have any talent at all, you'll break into the top magazines one heck of a lot faster than you will by starting at the bottom.

An awful bunch of stories have been published in tiny magazines that would have sold to large magazines, had the writer just given the story a chance, instead of betraying it. As an editor, I see this happen often.

And an awful bunch of stories do not sell to top magazines because the writer can't resist simsubbing, even though it's clearly against the magazine's policy.

Forget patience on the submission end of the business. If the time lag bothers you, it can only mean you aren't writing and submitting nearly enough. If you were, you wouldn't even notice response time.

If, on the other hand, your goal is to amass a wonderful collection of rejection slips, start at the bottom, and practice simsubbing regularly.

Trust me. As an editor, I want to see your story, and just because you don't think it measures up in no way at all means I'll feel the same.
 

Luna

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Allrighty then... To everyone who feels like a total loser now since I started this thread, please accept my humble apologies.

Since July, I've written a novel and thirteen short stories. To my absolute delight, the novel has generated requests for partials or fulls from four of 16 agents I've queried. One of those four has passed so far. But I'm still mailing queries in the interim.

And although I'd love to wait for every queried lit mag to peruse my short fiction for 5-6 months before rejecting or signing a check, if the last few years are any indicator, I simply don't have that luxury.

Six weeks ago, I got my third cancer diagnosis since 1999. Even if I pull through this one more time, I've given up on scoring a "real" job in the near future, because no one's going to hire a woman who's as bald as a honeydew and too weak to shut her own car door properly. I worked full-time in accounting for a temp agency that went under last fall, and I've been unemployed since. My writing is the only thing that's kept me sane. For that, I am thankful.

Since starting treatments again, I haven't been able to write a damn thing. Quit worrying about wait times? Maybe in my next life.

So please forgive me if I can't agree with the "real writers do not worry about waiting..." bit. Maybe I'll never be a "real" writer then. There are worse things. Much worse.

Sorry for the crankiness, guys; it's been another lousy couple of days.
 

johnnysannie

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Jamesaritchie said:
The "waiting" excuse is nonsense. It's the mark of a pure amateur I don't want to deal with, don't have to deal with, and won't deal with. Period.

Real writers do not worry about waiting months because they're writing constantly, submitting constantly, and hear back from one magazine or another pretty much every week. Often two or three times per week.

Simsubbing almost guarantees your rejection rate will be far higher than it should be, and that the stories you do sell will be to tiny magazines. Simsubbing stops the writer from gaining valuable experience, and greatly reduces the chances the writer has to do rewrites and make revisions to editorial demand.

.

James, you are an ***. There is room in this business for differences of opinion and different methods.

I am a professional. Writing is what I do. It pays the bills. Feel free to Google me or use any search engine you want.

I've never had a problem with sim subs but I do have a problem with asses like you. I've been too busy to post or even visit any of the various writer's boards in recent months but boy, once I do, bam - you're on top of me like a duck on a june bug with your pompous, arrogant in-your-face-attitude.

It's more than enough - and I am so done.
 

pdr

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Accept our differences, please...all of you!

I teach writers. I see different individuals and help them find a system of writing and submitting that is comfortable for them.

For some people, starting small and working up the ladder is a great way to go. It's comfortable, they get feed back from the small mags and their readers and the confidence gained gives them confidence to write. Then they discover that the 'top' mags are within their writer's skills.

Others like to go to the top and wave their rejection slips from Landfall, Stand and Grain and mutter that they wish their acceptance had come from literary Queen's and not small press Greens. They are happy too.

Different methods for different individuals, James and johnnysannie.

However as far as sim subs go if the magazine says don't then don't.

I've said this before on this board but I'll repeat it. You don't sim sub you send international subs. The US of A is not the only market for short stories written in English. You can sell your work profitably to Canada, Oz, Ireland, the EEC journals in English, many of the European English literaries, the UK, and for a pittance to South Africa, NZ, and some of the African and Indian English journals. After marketing around the world you then find a final home for your story at a good on-line site that pays you too.

Luna, I hear and understand.
You write and send out as much as you can when you can.

Mike C is correct for those who pay the bills by writing. We need to be writing and sending out every week.

But, luna, you're going to kick that cancer and if you have been caught simsubbing then those editors won't be interested in your next story. So please submit internationally. Start with Canada. I listed a good site for Canadian markets and there are several market lists for international markets stickied at the top of this 'board'. PM me if you want some info. I write about international markets for a UK writer's magazine as well as sell to them myself.
We're all different and need to work in different ways. Please be tolerant of that everyone!
 

arrowqueen

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I'm sorry, Johnny, but I have to agree with James on the sim-subbing thing (at least with shorts.) I only did it once - and that was by mistake, when I emailed the same story to two separate Australian mags. (I much prefer hard-copies, since I just send them back out as soon as they come in.)

Unfortunately they both accepted, and you have no idea the bollocking I got - or the amount of grovelling I had to do to get back in their good graces.

It was a bit like having two lovers and then having them meet on the stairs. They both stamped off in the huff!
 

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johnnysannie said:
I've never had a problem with sim subs but I do have a problem with asses like you. I've been too busy to post or even visit any of the various writer's boards in recent months but boy, once I do, bam - you're on top of me like a duck on a june bug with your pompous, arrogant in-your-face-attitude.

It's more than enough - and I am so done.

I also have a problem with simsubs, both as a writer and editor, and share Mr Ritchie's opinion.

I don't do it - ever - and don't expect to see it. So that must make me pompous and arrogant too. But I already knew that.

What is pompous and arrogant is writers who decide "Rules don't apply to me - I know better than the poor schmuck that's got to read through the slush pile."

If you don't like the submission policy of the publication, don't submit.
 

Luna

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Okay, so we've determined that simultaneous submissions (where none are allowed) are not cool at all, and frowned upon by editors everywhere. Unfortunately, I wasn't looking to "get away" with anything when I started this thread. I just want to make the most of what time I have.

My original question was about submitting to markets where simsubs are clearly permitted in their guidelines. Most dark fiction markets I've submitted to allow them; some don't, nor do some literary markets. I respect their posted guidelines, without question. Again, see my first post.

Now if you're still eager to bash all us evil simsubbers as being equivalent to tax cheats and identity thieves, would you kindly start a new thread for that?
 

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Hi Luna,

I'm fairly new to all this as well and admit that I don't send out sim subs anyway even if the market allows. My main reason is because I am so disorganised I would get my knickers in a knot trying to work out what I'd sent where and rejection times, closing dates etc. I submitted an article at the beginning of the year that said if you don't hear anything within 2 months consider it a rejection. I didn't hear and so submitted elsewhere (that doesn't accept sim subs) and lo and behold 2 weeks later got an acceptance from the first publisher. Aforesaid knickers are now well knotted in case the 2nd publisher also accepts. Imagine the mess I'd get into if I actually sim sub'd purposefully!

Also most of the mags I have submitted to state that they don't want sim subs, so it's okay by me.

Do you think you are sending out enough stuff? I think only you can answer this question dependant on your circumstances. I try to send out one story per week. It's enough - but only just. I should be working harder.
Saying that, once you get a few out there - say past the 12 mark - you stop worrying about response times and can concentrate more on the actual writing:)
 

Luna

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Hey there, Dollywagon!

First of all, let me apologize to you - and everyone else - for taking things so personally on this thread. Lately, I've had a lot of weird days where even air touching me hurts (no exaggeration), so thick skin isn't my best quality anymore.

Thanks for sharing your experience. You too, Arrowqueen. And a big congratulations on the sales! Made me chuckle to read about them, because that would totally be my luck if I held out for all exclusive markets.

It's very possible I'm not sending enough stories out; I have a fairly small body of them to work with, and haven't been able to crank out much new stuff lately. Maybe my problem is, I'm trying to be too organized, worrying about submitting to four markets at once with response times running from one month to seven. Figured it would be easy enough to eliminate them as the days pass with no word, but as your situation proved, there's always some way to derail a plan. Maybe I'll just kick back for a while until I'm feeling better, and this whole thing gotta-get-published thing won't seem so monumentally important. Until then, I can concentrate on trying to write more. Before I got sick this last time, writing was pure enjoyment, total escapism. I'd love to feel that again. Just not sure how to get it back.

Most of my nieces and my nephew are so young, they won't remember me years down the road. Unfortunately, the biggest thing driving me right now is the urge to leave something behind, proving to them that Aunt So-and-so was here once, and she had a brain, and a very unique outlook on the world.

Or (and this is what I'm shooting for) maybe third time won't be a charm, and I'll able to crash their graduation parties like I did to their mum & dad (my two older sibs). Got my shoes picked out already. :)

Anyway, thanks for the feedback, guys.
 
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Dollywagon

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No need to apologise, Luna. If I'd got cancer for the third time I'd be feeling pretty snippy as well.

In fact, even without it I'm pretty snippy most of the time anyway;)

To be honest I think you are feeling like most of us do when first starting out. Working with only a few stories does tend to focus your attention on the outcome. When you get a few more out there then they will not be so important.

You never know they may come back as acceptances and not rejections. Then you will have to write even more to make up for the shortfall:)
 

C.H. Campbell

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Mr. Ritchie
People have different opinions. And different methods of approaching writing.
Right now, I'm not worried about making MONEY writing, I'm writing for me, and I'm simsubbing to places that aren't paying markets. There are a ton of writers out there and they all have different approaches to it, so don't knock someone's personal philosophies. I don't simsub to anywhere that doesn't accept it. There are thousands of ezines and litboards out there with great writers submitting to them. I'm just not about taking the high and might approach, I'm doing what works for me and having fun doing it.
And your ridiculous notion that if I'm simsubbing I'm probably not writing enough is flat out wrong. But I respect your opinion even if you don't respect the others of those that post here, as it's clearly evident that you are best, all knowing, writer-editor that's ever set foot on the planet, so forgive our insolence.
All Hail You.
The bottom line is this. DONT simsub to a mag that says not to.
DO simsub if they say it's ok.
 

C.H. Campbell

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Luna

Having taken a step backward and calmed down, I feel that as I am not a working editor, It's probably wise to consider Mr. Ritchie's advice (as he's living the life and I am still learning like you.) I do agree with him in that a writer is often the worst judge of their own work.

The most important thing is that you write,write,write, we all agree on that.
And I hope you give Cancer a swift kick in the ***.
 

Lee G.

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This thread has me thoroughly confused. Why would a magazine say they accept sim subs, and then hold it against you? Is it some inside joke to snare the aspiring writers of the world, chew them up, and spit them out? I accept James A Ritchie's advise to start submitting at the top, and I've noticed that many of the second tier literary magazines accept simsubs. (The top tier includes magazines like The New Yorker, and seems a little above my reach right now). Even though I believe strongly in my work, I'm realistic enough to know that being accepted in second tier magazines like The Paris Review would be a major coup for a first-time writer. My plan was to start out by sim subbing to the six magazines in that tier which expressly permit it. A show of hands now. Who thinks I'll be eternally banished from publication in those magazines if I sim sub? And why would I want to deal with them if they tell me something is okay and then hold it against me later?

BTW, I know dividing lit mag's into tiers is fraught with unfairness and inaccuracy, but for new writers, it at least draws a rough sketch of the competiveness of each mag.
 
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CaroGirl

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I do the same thing as you, in terms of grading the levels of magazines that I submit to. I think it's smart marketing to target the magazine that is most likely to publish your writing. I'm in Canada, and I wouldn't dream of subbing to Descant or Grain at this stage in my writing life. I'm going for the middle range, like The Antigonish Review, and The New Quarterly, and even then I'm crossing my fingers.

I, personally, am not comfortable simsubbing. Some of the guidelines seem understanding and say, just let us know if something is accepted elsewhere. I can't imagine they could hold it against you if just such a situation arises.

Good luck in whatever you do, Lee. I hope we all get published.
 
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