Chat Transcript and Personal Goals

Here it is, bright and shiny, for the May 11th Official Chat. The discussion topic was "Characters: Out of My Head and Onto the Page."

Okay, so that wasn't really the title, but here's the transcript. And at the end, we'll be adding personal writing goals to be accomplished by the next official Chat in two weeks. There's nothing quite like a fellow writer standing over you with a big stick, asking "Have you reached your goal yet?"



CHAT (edited for rambling and OT silliness)

<Sharon> On the other hand, writing too much without taking time off also hurts my mood.

<Sage> It doesn't help that I only have a little plot for the new WIP

<Sage> & the main character is so different from me, that I have trouble writing her
<SomeoneElse> Sage, live her life for a while. experience the person

<Chaostitan> Oooh, this is a good seque into the potential chat topic. Characters: What comes first, the person or the plot?

<shweta> I have this issue, too, Sage

<Sharon> Plot Vs. Character! No Holds Barred!

<Serenity1673> as in?

<Sage> is that our new topic, sharon?

<shweta> as in, character unlike self.

<Serenity1673> I mean, are we talking plot-driven vs. character driven pieces?

<shweta> I'm trying to write a story about someone who starts off as a seriously conflict-avoidant wuss

<Sharon> That's what Chaos suggested... I just... um... embelleshed it a bit.

<shweta> and it's really hard.

<Chaostitan> Not quite, Serenity. I meant do we come up with the character first, or the plot first? Which one grows out of the other for each writer?

<shweta> so what does plot vs character mean?

<SomeoneElse> but if the plot fits the character then there is no adventure!

<shweta> ah

<Serenity1673> I have an idea, then character, then plot, really

<shweta> does anyone have a complete plot before characters? Or vice versa?

<Serenity1673> I am comma queen... watch me, pause.

<shweta> I know I kind of come up with them interactively.

<Chaostitan> Plot v. Character is which one determines the action, Shweta. Does the plot influence the character's actions, or does teh character control the plot?

<Sage> All of mine have been characters first

<SomeoneElse> outcome of every plot is based on the character

<shweta> I kinda start with setting and characters and then have some plot elements and then refine the characters and then more plot stuff and then I dither about how to put it all together and then some more of both...

<Sharon> For me, character comes before plot -- plot comes out of character -- but character, setting, and situation all kind of develop in one intermingled bundle.

<shweta> what sharon said

* shweta is a little hypoxic just now.

<Serenity1673> For me, I never know exactly where my characters are going to end up. I'll write a bio for them and have an idea what I *think* they'll be like, but as I write, that almost always changes.

They always surprise me. They'll do something that I *really* don't want them to do or something that I had no clue they *could* do.

<Sharon> The details of the plot come out of the characters, and then the plot shapes the characters in turn. It's all very interactive.

<SomeoneElse> on the other hand a pot can define the chenges in a character

<Serenity1673> yes, pot can do tht

<Serenity1673> that even

<DamaNegra> whoaaaa getting drugged so early??

<Chaostitan> Dama, you aren't hungry, are you?

<DamaNegra> pues nada, aqui llegando de nadar

<DamaNegra> mmm I just swam a lot so...

<Serenity1673>

<DamaNegra> nah, I feel like a quesadilla now

<shweta> hi dama

<DamaNegra> I mean, like getting a quesadilla, not like I'm a quesadilla

<DamaNegra> hi shweta

* Chaostitan snickers

<Sharon> Have my one-page synopsis, Dama. It's all full of cheese.

<Chaostitan> LOL

<DamaNegra> yummy!!

* Sharon hopes the joke survives translation.

<DamaNegra> lol, I've got my whole WIP printed out and waiting for me to grab a pen and start editing it

<DamaNegra> but I'll try to do that tomorrow

<Chaostitan> Has anyone ever had a character land in their head, fully developed, but had not a clue what to do with them?

<DamaNegra> many times

<Lore> Oh, yes.

<Sharon> I should point out my one-page synopsis is, in fact, longer than a page. But that's what revision is for.

<SomeoneElse> Chaos, lol yes, myself

<DamaNegra> I usually swap them with a lame existing character

<DamaNegra> this is an official chat??

<Chaostitan> FYI, Dama, we're talking about Characters tonight. Various aspects.

<Chaostitan> Yes

<Sage> do you have guidelines that say it should be one page, sharon?

<DamaNegra> oh, thanks

<DamaNegra> well, it's always easier to do it in one page, less room for ADD

<Sharon> One of the (few) agencies on my list so far wants a one-page synopsis.

<shweta> and the novel is scary-complicated for a page?

<Sage> that's tough

<shweta> I tend to have flashes of characters.

<Chaostitan> Ugh, I remember writing a one page synopsis. It was painful.

<shweta> Not full-fledged people, but more a sense of someone and a snippet of conversation.

<shweta> Then I have to figure out who they are.

<Sharon> The story is, in fact, scary-complicated. Even the five-page synopsis leaves out significant subplots.

<DamaNegra> I don't, I just start with a stereotype and start drawing them away from that stereotype with details

<Sage> my incomplete synopsis is two pages (but no requirement from an agency yet)

<Sharon> But, anyway. Characters.

<DamaNegra> you know, I just descovered that working with pre-existing characters (especially videogame characters, because they don't talk to much and just scratch the surface of their personalities) and developing them is great to know how to develop your own characters

<Sage> I guess so far the new WIP is character oriented... since I have almost no plot yet

<Sharon> Characters come to me in all sorts of different ways. Sometimes they're just... there. Part of the idea. Sometimes they develop as I explore the idea. Sometimes they jump in and demand to be part of the action.

<DamaNegra> because you have the surface, now you need to dig deeper which is the hardest part

<shweta> :nods:

<Sage> my characters prior to this wip have developed from other writing I did beforehand

<Chaostitan> That's an interesting point, Dama, about the pre-existing character types

<DamaNegra> that's why I'm working on fanfic right now, I'm really deepening the characters of my favorite videogame, and that's had a very positive influence on my short stories and (hopefully) my contest novel

<DamaNegra> yup

<Chaostitan> I have one quirk when creating characters, and that is I often start with an actor or actress. Just a pic from the Internet, and the character begins to develop from that.

<DamaNegra> or a character from a movie or game, I sometimes do that

<Chaostitan> I like having that visual in my head.

<Serenity1673> Does anyone 'cast' their characters? And if you do, does it make it easier to write them or harder?//STOP THAT!!!

* Chaostitan blushes

<DamaNegra> hmmm, no, I've never done it, usually the right character is already there

<Serenity1673> I want the brain back. <taps foot>

* Chaostitan hides the brain

* DamaNegra eats the brain

<Serenity1673> uh oh...

<shweta> uh oh

<shweta> jinx

<Serenity1673> :|:|

<DamaNegra> wooops, sorry chaos, I thought it was jell-o

<Sage> mine are cast... but they're anime characters

<Serenity1673> Ok, when did I turn psychic????

<Chaostitan> It's a fun exercise, actually. My dad and I came up with an idea that I wrote as a screenplay by simply asking "Have Actor X and Actor Y ever done a movie together?"

<Sharon> Playing online roleplaying games taught me about character and how it creates story. However, I wouldn't recommend it as a way to learn, because the game also ate up my life and creativity for a very long time.

* Chaostitan turns the Supersoaker on Dama for eating the brain

<shweta> Serenity1673: a month from now. You just turned weirdly precognitive.

* DamaNegra screams and runs

<Serenity1673> a ha

<Sage> oh, so I shouldn't use that as an excuse to play w/ the new PS2, then? ;-)

<Lore> It's addicting to have someone else to bounce your ideas directly off of with characters, Sharon.

<shweta> Running roleplaying games ahs taught me a lot.

<Sharon> I don't think I've ever cast a character, at least not until well after the fact.

<shweta> people RPGs rather than computer RPGs; those I know nothing about.

<Chaostitan> Narrative based RPG's?

<shweta> yeah

<DamaNegra> I've never played an online RPG

<Serenity1673> Oooo... some other RPGers

<shweta> They *do* eat a lot of time.

<Sage> me too

<Chaostitan> Yeah, I am involved in several of those, as well, Shweta

<shweta> Gotta agree with sharon about that.

<Sharon> Sage, do NOT play Final Fantasy XI, no matter how tempting it may seem. That's all I'm sayin'.

<Lore> They are very useful for some things, though.

<Sage> actually my fanfics were based off an RPG I played

<Sage> okay

<DamaNegra> my fanfics are all based on The Legend of Zelda

<shweta> But I really couldn't figure out plot, even to the extent that I can now, before I ran stuff on other people

<Sage> I'll steer clear

<DamaNegra> the one I'm working on is really interesting, because it deals with the fact that the MC (Link) went from having 10 to having 17 years because he time-travelled, so basically he's a boy in a man's body, while the girl he loves is already a woman, so it is really interesting

<Sage> it's easier to plot novels than RPGs for me

<Sharon> I got hooked on a MUD back when I was in grad school. It contributed greatly to my ten-year writer's block.

<Sharon> At the same time, when I pulled myself out of that block, I found I'd learned an awful lot in the process.

<Serenity1673> my involvement in on-line rp'ing actually got me thinking that 'hey, I could *do* this' (ie: write)

<Chaostitan> I tend to really work on my RPG's when I'm having trouble with my WIP's, and vice versa. When I'm deep into a WIP, I tend to neglect my RPG's

<shweta> yyeah

<shweta> I think I'm doing that now

<Chaostitan> which one?

<shweta> ignoring the RPG to write

<Chaostitan> ah

<Sage> yeah

<shweta> I try to push myself when being a game master, though, in ways that help the writing.

<Sage> One of my gamers just gave me a "Are we ever going to play Buffy again?"

<Chaostitan> But are we really neglecting our writing when the characters we're writing for the RPG's are original characters?

<shweta> 's a good question

<shweta> certainly neglecting particular WIPs

<Sharon> RPGs are temporary, is the problem.

<shweta> but they might hone skills.

<shweta> I think there's good and bad.

<DamaNegra> if they are temporary yes, if you let them consume your time, no

<Serenity1673> just don't hone then bail

I had someone do that right in the middle of three plots in three seperate RP's and it was incredibly annoying.

<Lore> I have also used RPG characters.. as a starting point for story characters.

<Chaostitan> But the characters remain yours. They could be available for future use in an original work. I am doing that just now. A character I originated on an RPG that I left gave birth to an original story idea

<Sage> exactly

<Sharon> They definitely hone skills... but what Loremanda

said about it being addictive to bounce stories offf other people. And you don't really have anything you can share with others at the end of it.

<DamaNegra> that can happen too, story ideas pop out of everywhere

<DamaNegra> completely off-topic, is it a good idea to join the critters community??

<Serenity1673> :/

<Sage> My RPG characters became my novel's MCs' parents

<Chaostitan> I joined, Dama, but I couldn't keep up with the Crit requirements, so I took a hiatus

<Sharon> I've heard that the Critters community isn't that useful any more, Dama.

<shweta> Yeah, I never felt able to keep up with the crits

<DamaNegra>

<DamaNegra> anyone want to be my crit partner, then?? I promise I won't bite

<Serenity1673> what is it?

<DamaNegra> what, critters??

<Serenity1673> yes

<beezle> Idea's can definately come from anywhere, DamaNegra. I've recently been reading a list of urban legends and thinking of all kinds of story ideas. Though most pretty silly.

<Sharon> If you can afford the membership ($50/year) I'd recommend this place: http://sff.onlinewritingworkshop.com/

<DamaNegra> silly ideas make funny stories, which are amusing

<DamaNegra> nope, can't afford the membership

<Lore> That said about it being addictive to bounce story ideas off other people, it is really quite wonderful to write at the same time -- preferably in the same room -- as someone else.

<DamaNegra> but we've strayed out of our original topic, lol

<Serenity1673> Wow, I was under a tornado warning/watch and didn't know it :|

<DamaNegra> lol

* DamaNegra tap dances on top of the table

<Sharon> Well, the RPG stuff was all about character. So we didn't stray too badly.

<Chaostitan> No, we're still relatively on topic

<shweta> I have trouble figuring out whether my characters are changing interestingly.

<shweta> I can either pop utof the story and think about them

<DamaNegra> what's the thing you admire most about your MC??

<shweta> out of the story

<shweta> or write, and then I can't tell

<Sage> Wait til the end & take a look at them, shweta

<shweta> :nods:

<shweta> I mostly plan to. But it still bothers me.

<Chaostitan> Good question, Dama.

<Sage> I finished & started reading the "Writing the Breakout Novel" workbook. I was surprised by what I already had done with my characters & plot

<Sage> Suddenly, I'm seeing symbols I didn't plan

<Sage> How characters evolved over time

<shweta> would you recommend that workbook?

<Sage> Complexities I didn't know they had

<DamaNegra> I recommend a book called 'How Fiction Works', it's full of examples instead of yadda yadda

<Sage> I think it's pretty good, but it might not be for everyone

<shweta> :nods:

<DamaNegra> well, no one has answered my question, lol

<DamaNegra> what is it that you most admire about your MC??

<shweta> my MC (by which I mean viewpoint character, cause I have multiple protagonists) is ruthlessly honest. I think that's what I admire most about her.

<Chaostitan> Anyone want to bite on Dama's question? What do you admire most about your current MC?

<Chaostitan> Thanks, Shweta

<Sage> for me it turned out to be better to see things I didn't notice before. But one of the suggestions for the "pitch" (query) already has been poo-poo'ed by others

<shweta> jinx

<shweta> Hm.

<Serenity1673> sorry, I was distracted

* Sharon ponders Dama's question.

<shweta> Do either of you have author names for those books, sage and dama?

<Serenity1673> repeat the question please? 'Cause the screen keeps scrolling when I look for it

<Chaostitan> What do you admire most about your MC?

<DamaNegra> what is author names??

<Serenity1673> which one?

<Chaostitan> Pick one

<DamaNegra> ah, I'll get to you on that

<Sage> Donald Maas (of the Maas Agency) wrote "Writing the Breakout Novel" & it's workbook

<Sage> (the workbook was what I bought)

<Chaostitan> I think I actually have the companion to that Sage, the actually book part

<Serenity1673> Alannah- strong willed, incredibly stubborn. Also very sure about what she wants, even if she isn't sure how to get there.

<DamaNegra> How Fiction Works by Oakley Hall

<Sharon> For the behemoth, I'd say it's her integrity. Despite being caught in an impossible situation, she holds on to her values as much as she possibly can. And that's what makes a positive outcome possible in the end.

<Serenity1673> Keana- insecure. Very different from my other. She's learning how to live her life all over under incredibly different circumstances. I look forward to the moment when she finds her balance again.

<DamaNegra> my MC, it's her willingness to fight, even when she feels like giving up

<Sage> bbs

<Serenity1673> My last one, I love his relationship with his mom. They're very good friends and it shows in their dialogue. Kind of like me and my mom.

<Lore> I like my character's restlessness. Sense of disatisfaction. It begs for trouble.

<Sharon> For the NaNoWriMo book, it's her willingness to do the right thing while everybody around her is taking the coward's way out.

<DamaNegra> so, what is it that you hate the most about your characters??

<Sharon> Lore, that sounds a lot like the behemoth's MC, come to think of it.

<Lore> :grins: I was thinking that.

<shweta> I have trouble writing characters I hate.

<Chaostitan> I think she means a flaw, something they do that you dislike, but it's part of their personality

<shweta> I know I really need to. I have trouble really dealing with conflict.

<Sharon> Dama, you do NOT want to get me started on my villain.

<shweta> For the short story, it's the fact that the girl is a damn wuss

<DamaNegra> l

<shweta> and she's unhappy but doesn't stick up for herself

<DamaNegra> no, no, the same MC we were working with

<Lore> I hate most that my character is really.. quite.. stupid some times in the pursuit of restlessness. The mistakes he makes are valid, but god. Anyone with a thimble full of sense would have known better.

<DamaNegra> what I hate the most about my MC is that she's too emotional, she breaks down easily even if in the end she's gonna fight anyway

<shweta> for the novel, the protagonist... well, she's a brat. She has real trouble understanding that she's not the only person in a difficult situation.

<shweta> Other than just superficially.

<Sharon> For the behemoth, it's her urge to isolate herself -- gee, I wonder where she gets THAT from? Her tendency to constantly minimize her distress is more amusing than annoying, though.

<shweta> heheh

<DamaNegra> so, now, as a reader, which do you think weighs more, the hate or the like part??

<Sage> sure, we finally get to the interesting part about characters & my sister calls

<Sharon> For the NaNoWriMo -- and why don't I just call 'em by their titles? -- it's her refusal to admit her attraction and vulnerability, even when it's staring her right in the face.

<Serenity1673> For me? The 'like'. I find it hard to read characters I don't 'like'. I do that with television too. If I see something coming that I know is bad, or I know they're going to do something stupid, I will more often than not leave the room. I just *can't* watch it.

<Sage> I love those characters, Sharon

<Sharon> As a reader, I don't feel a great need to like or admire a character. I recently read and very much enjoyed a book in which even I had to admit the main characters were objectively horrible human beings.

<DamaNegra> I just read a book in which I kept wishing the bad guys would just go ahead and kill the MC, was very pleased when they did

<Sage> lol

<shweta> brb

<DamaNegra> ok

<Sharon> If a character is *interesting,* that's good enough for me.

<DamaNegra> me too, I'll get more cheese

<Chaostitan> I think that the good and bad parts have to balance each other out. The most memorable characters had great strengths, but also a good juicy flaw.

<shweta> Like. I hope.

<Sharon> Anybody here watch Deadwood at all?

<Sage> no, sorry

<Chaostitan> nope

<shweta> I hve to like characters

<shweta> Or I cannot care. Just "interesting" will only hold me for 10-15 pages max.

<Sage> I'm trying to think of a novel where I haven't liked a character

<Sharon> There are some stunningly horrible characters in that show.

<Sage> horrible as in wicked?

<Sharon> Horrible in more or less every way you can think of.

<Sharon> Though there are actually some good and noble people in the show as well.

<Chaostitan> If the character holds my interest, I don't much care if i like them or not

<Sage> There are plenty of characters I would never be friends with, but who I still like in a fictional world

<Chaostitan> Kind of like Sawyer on "Lost." He's an absolute jerk most of the time, but he's so captivating.

<Sage> Or House

<Chaostitan> Right.

<Sharon> Now, see, I just finished watching the two-part pilot of Lost (yes, I'm slow), and the idea of spending two years with that guy is enough in itself to make me want to stop watching.

<Chaostitan> One of the villains in my novel is murderer and a pretty nasty guy, but I hope that he's at least got layers that make the reader want to know more about him.

<Serenity1673> watch on though, Sharon. He grows on you.

<Chaostitan> He gets better, Sharon

<Serenity1673> Chaos....

<Sharon> So clearly likeability does have some influence on me. Maybe it's just that I'm willing to like people in fiction that I would never tolerate or forgive in real life.

<Chaostitan> Especially as the hair grows longer, and he takes his shirt off more and more...

<Chaostitan> Bingo, sharon!

<Sharon> Feh! I'd be too busy watching Naveen Andrews to notice.

<Chaostitan> LOL

<Lore> I really haven't liked some characters.. :trying tot hink of which ones.:

<Lore> And by not like, I mean not liked reading about.

<Lore> I tend not to like weak characters who inexplicably grow a backbone and know what to do in every situation.

<Sage> I'm actually more forgiving in novels than in television

<Chaostitan> I agree, Lore

<Sharon> I can think of characters I've loathed, but they're villains, so I'm not entirely sure that counts.

<Sage> if I dislike the MC of a tv show, I'll find something else to watch

<Lore> I can relate to being insecure and edgy sometimes. And it doesn't go away when you just get *something* right.

<Sage> but books, I have paid for, so I'll stick around longer & give them a chance

<Sage> I'm also more trusting of the author to make me like them later

OFFICIAL GOALS

<Chaostitan> I was wondering something earlier, and I'll toss this out to you guys.

<Chaostitan> How do you feel about setting a writing goal? Something to be accomplished by the next official chat in two weeks? To keep each other accountable for our progress?

<shweta> Oooh

<shweta> I do like that.

<Sage> that's fine

<Serenity1673> our very own NaNo?

<Sage> but I won't be here next week

<beezle> How optimistic of a goal?

<Chaostitan> Even if you can't make the chat, make an effort to make the goal by that Thursday, 9pm

<Sharon> Sounds like a great idea, though I'll be too tied up with getting the behemoth out the door to participate.

<shweta> How about something in which we can really see a character portrayed/developing?

<shweta> as a spin-off to the conversation?

<Chaostitan> It can be anything from finishing a query letter to writing 5000 words a week.

<Serenity1673> are we responsible for the full count if we're writing with a partner?

<Sharon> Ah... personal goals?

<Chaostitan> yes personal goals

<shweta> oki

<Chaostitan> Only if you are a masochist, Serenity

<Serenity1673> so, yes?

<Serenity1673>

<Sharon> We should post it on the chat thread on the board, as well. Or start a new topic.

<Serenity1673> Ah...

<shweta> oki! my personal goal is to get a first draft of the current short story together by next thursday.

<shweta> I'm bound to it now.

<Chaostitan> I agree. So how about by tomorrow we post our goals?

<Sharon> My goal for the next chat is to have queries out to agents.

<shweta> And off I go, and try to be a less neglectful spouse

<beezle> Sounds good.

<Serenity1673> by the next chat or the next official chat?

<Chaostitan> next official chat, so two weeks

<shweta> sure, chaos

<Sharon> Okay, so that was my goal beforehand, but that's okay.

<Chaostitan> So I suppose that closes the official chat?

~*~


So here we are. You didn't have to have participated in the chat in order to set a goal.

Who's going to bite first?

It's only fair to add my own goal. In two weeks I will:

1. Revise and polish query for completed novel.

2. Contribute at least 5,000 words to a co-authored novel.

3. Complete a short story that I started several weeks ago, and left floundering.

No pressure, Peter. The chats are definitely for fun and discussion. I just tossed out the idea of setting a writing goal as an afterthought. No one has to, and certainly no one will be attacked with the Hypersonic Super Soaker if they don't meet the goal.