Villainless Books

scribbler1382 · May 8, 2006

Hope this hasn't been covered too much already, but I was thinking this weekend about books with no real, defined villains (I'm thinking mostly Thrillers, here). I know that in most the <insert big scary thing> sort of acts like a villain, but I think there's a difference between something perceived as a villain and something deliberate, malicious or calculated.

So, what do you guys think? Like/hate? Do you think it works as well as a book with a clearly defined villain (even if the villain is shades of gray, as opposed to just comicbook dark) or does it matter?

Cheers,

DamaNegra · May 8, 2006

I like my villians to be undefined. Like, you are led to think someone is a villain but as you learn more from that person you can see why he/she does what he/she does and you get to understand and care for that character so you don't see him/her as a villain, although he/she may be the antagonist. I think that's even harder to do, and that's what I like so much about it.

CaroGirl · May 8, 2006

I prefer villains that are complex. I want to see a character struggle with his decisions, morals, goals, etc. I think that really lends verisimilitude to an antagonist and makes me want to read on to find out what happens next. I lose interest in any character, protagonist or antagonist, that is merely black and white, a two-dimensional cardboard cutout of a character. When you give every character that complexity, it is sometimes more difficult to tell the villain from the hero. And when the lines are blurred, anything can happen.

Gillhoughly · May 8, 2006

Something I learned from Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, "Your hero is only as good as your villain."

There's all kinds of big bads out there, it's up to you to figure out which sort turns you on as a writer and to run with it.

On X-Files there might have been a vast conspiracy behind much of the fun, but it was Cancer Man who wore the face. Whenever the actor's name showed in the credits I knew it might be a pretty cool episode.

Your baddie can have a face or not, it's up to you.

I will suggest that it's a good idea to never follow current trends that are hot and on the racks today. Those were born at least two years ago, and by the time your take on the theme comes out it will be over and a new one's replaced it.

Recall if you will the spate of black covered horror novels that flooded the market after The Exorcist came out. They ran their course, sputtered, and died.

Ditto for dinosaur DNA titles, lawyers as heroes titles, techno-thrillers, and so on. People remember the originators, but rarely the ones who jumped on the bandwagon.

icerose · May 8, 2006

There should always be a protagonist and an antagonist. Does not have to be a person. It can be an act of nature. Think of Dante's Peak. It can be the man vs man.

I prefer whatever my antagonist is, to be complex, it is awesome when a story leads you to think a certain person is the good guy and turns out to be a bad guy, like Monsters Inc. The head of the company is actually the mastermind.

Make it a good interesting story with lots of conflict and people will read it.

Tracy · May 8, 2006

Villains

I have a personal belief that happy people don't do bad things. Now, some sad people don't do bad things either, and we are all responsible for our actions. But all villains, I truly believe, are acting out of their pain. This basic premise brings me always to complex villains. There's a reason why they're doing what they're doing. We can understand it even though we certainly don't condone it.
Also, I realise that from the villain's point of view, their actions are perfectly justified. Even if they have to jump through hoops to justify their actions, they will. So to their own minds, they're not a villain. Just misunderstood perhaps, and certainly right.

In this context, a) the antagonist is hurting not bad and b) they think they're doing the right thing, you can have a villain-less story. But of course their actions are (literally) antagonistic to our protagonist and they are villains to us (the writers and readers).

Hope this helps,

DeadlyAccurate · May 8, 2006

I love when a good man vs. nature story turns out to be just that and not a man vs. man story in disguise. Referencing Dante's Peak that icerose mentioned (minor spoilers to follow), Mother Nature was enough of a danger to the heroes that there was no need to stick in a greedy corporation/corrupt mayor to suddenly give the heroes even more to worry about. Another recent movie was The Cave, a rather mediocre action/thriller (I liked it, but it's not like it was an extraordinary piece of film-making) that managed to avoid that convention, too.

A story does need a conflict, but it certainly doesn't have to have a villian. A story about two people trying to get the same raise and both engaging in a series of amusing hijinks would be an example.

Solange Blue · May 8, 2006

Tracy said:
I have a personal belief that happy people don't do bad things.

So to their own minds, they're not a villain. Just misunderstood perhaps, and certainly right.

Your description was an interesting discussion of this type of fictional character... I just want to be clear that this only applies to FICTION.

There are many happy and murdering sociopaths out there... it's that "remorseless" part of their personality that makes them unapologetic pleasure seekers. Sure, some are depressed, but many are positively jolly.

MadScientistMatt · May 8, 2006

One touch that can make for a very interesting story is when the antagonist is not a villain in the usual sense, but a "good guy" who has legitimate reasons (or at least what the antagonist believes to be morally legitimate reasons) for trying to thwart the protagonist. This can bring a moral dilemma into the story if done well, and give the hero a more complex (and often more difficult) problem than merely having to kill the antagonist. But this doesn't work for all stories, of course.

But in all cases, the antagonist needs to be matched well to the protagonist. By that, I mean something that poses a genuine threat and won't be easy to defeat. A storm, volcano, or asteroid can be just as menacing as a person.

Avalon · May 8, 2006

Or a setting. There's The House as antagonist, The Moors or The Woods as antagonist, The City as antagonist, The Planet as antagonist -- all those wonderful works in which the setting actually becomes a character.

scarletpeaches · May 8, 2006

I prefer books where the main characters could be either ant- or protagonists depending on your personal opinions.

That, and lots of sex and guns.

maestrowork · May 8, 2006

scribbler1382 said:
Hope this hasn't been covered too much already, but I was thinking this weekend about books with no real, defined villains (I'm thinking mostly Thrillers, here)...

Read my book.

I'd like to think that the lack of a true "villain" is rather interesting. Actually, in many kinds of stories, such as coming-of-age or romantic novels, sometimes there is no need for villains. "Self" is a big enough villain all by itself.

Shadow_Ferret · May 8, 2006

I like my villians to be pure evil and so powerful you wonder how the hero could possibly win.

Linda Adams · May 8, 2006

Stakes

Being a reader and writer of thrillers, I'll put my two cents in here. I think without or without the villain, it can work equally well. Some of the thrillers I've read have both, some have one or the other. The key piece though is the stakes. If the stakes aren't high enough in the story, then it's not going to matter if there's an evil mastermind or not because the story isn't going to work right. I read a book where had really had a good villian, but the story fell flat because the stakes were not worth the villain's efforts.

icerose · May 8, 2006

This just gave me an excellent idea of a mystery. :e2sling:

mdin · May 8, 2006

Ever see the movie Changing Lanes?

Who was the antagonist, and who was the protagonist in that one?

Akuma · May 8, 2006

Since when does an antagonist need to be a villain?

bsolah · May 8, 2006

I think the success of a 'villainless' work would rely a lot on the writer. If you want to have a story where the antagonisms are more abstract than materialistic, like the character's own personality, as maestrowork said, then the skills of the writer need to be up to standard to pull it off.

When the villain is a solid thing to fight, it's a lot easier to write about -- and this doesn't mean the story is weak or simple because it'll be done time and time again.

janetbellinger · May 8, 2006

I prefer shades of gray and for the villains to show some personal growth throughout the novel.

James D. Macdonald · May 8, 2006

No villain? No problem. Go for it.

No conflict? No tension? No story. No way.

icerose · May 8, 2006

janetbellinger said:
I prefer shades of gray and for the villains to show some personal growth throughout the novel.

Or decline. Whatever it takes, just have both sides change and not remain the same.

Tienci · May 9, 2006

I, too, currently have what is a villain-less novel in that there is no villain/antagonist working against the main characters from beginning to end. The antagonist/villain/opposing force changes throughout- from the characters themselves, to friends, to family members.

I personally don't like 2-D characters either, those who move in shadows and cackle in the background and just like being evil/antagonizing without reason. I like to be presented with reasons, the catalysts, so that I understand how the characters got where they are.

But most of all, I like when the lines are blurred and you can't really tell villain from hero...just individuals with a mix of good and bad traits like the rest of us; some traits perhaps amplified for the sake of the story, but always understandable to the point where you can sit back and say: "Were I in his/her shoes, I might have done/became the same."

Vuligora · May 9, 2006

The vllian can be anthing, person or otherwise, so long as it fits the storY and serves it's pupose.

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