No descriptions?

Akuma said:

**And, yes, there's a reason I didn't put this in the "grammar" section. Because, really, there are going to be these sorts of things especially in novels. But move it if you need to.**

All right, so I'll be the first to say I'm not grammatically gifted and whatnot. Hell, I'll even admit that Stephen King is better than me.

So maybe it's understandable when I become somewhat puzzled when (correct me if I'm wrong) writers get on their soapboxes about the whole "adjective-adverb thing".
Forgive my ignorance (I've yet to take English 4 in highscool) but what is so bad about adjectives and adverbs in a story?
I mean, yeah, you just can't chain a bunch together with every noun and ooze it in every crack like sweet sugar--but it's ok to do this stuff sparingly.

All things in moderation, right?

"But you shouldn't even need to use these things in writing, not if you're a true writer!"
Huh?

So am I missing something?

Click to expand...

Who told you they are bad? Prolific use of any single technic makes for poor writing. The overuse of Adverbs and Adjectives, I suppose, would be one of these.

All right, so I'll be the first to say I'm not grammatically gifted and whatnot. Hell, I'll even admit that Stephen King is better than me.

Click to expand...

Thats darned sporting of you.

I would point out, to whoever said this to you, that in the quote you listed, 'true' is an adjective and 'even' is an adverb, but that's just me being snarky.

Akuma said:

"But you shouldn't even need to use these things in writing, not if you're a true writer!"
Huh?

So am I missing something?

Click to expand...

I also do not believe in absolutes. Just because there are (sometimes) different methods to describe other than adjectives and/or adverbs, it doesn't necessarily follow that the story is improved by their absence.

Akuma,

If an adjective or adverb clarifies the description or meaning of the noun or verb, use it. It's simply that some lazy folk use adjectives and adverbs constantly, without thinking or bothering to search for the right noun or verb, the use of which would render the modifier unnecessary.

Of course you can use them -- they're there to be used. The question is, when should you use them, and which adjective? I believe adjectives and adverbs relate to "show vs. tell."

"She is beautiful" would be grammatically correct but considered poor writing because a) it's telling and b) it's vague. It has no meaning to the readers.

"Her hair has the golden glow of twilight and her eyes are blue as ocean" conjures imageries that help the readers visualize her "beauty."

Same with adverbs:

"He said angrily" doesn't really tell the readers much and they will have to fill in the blanks of what "angrily" means.

"She gingerly picked up the piece of paper" gives us a specific imagery of how she picked something up without being "clunky." There's more detail to the action. Still, we could probably rewrite the line and make it better.

"He flew faster than a bullet" would be perfectly fine, IMHO (as does "perfectly fine" itself).

Akuma said:

**And, yes, there's a reason I didn't put this in the "grammar" section. Because, really, there are going to be these sorts of things especially in novels. But move it if you need to.**

All right, so I'll be the first to say I'm not grammatically gifted and whatnot. Hell, I'll even admit that Stephen King is better than me.

So maybe it's understandable when I become somewhat puzzled when (correct me if I'm wrong) writers get on their soapboxes about the whole "adjective-adverb thing".
Forgive my ignorance (I've yet to take English 4 in highscool) but what is so bad about adjectives and adverbs in a story?
I mean, yeah, you just can't chain a bunch together with every noun and ooze it in every crack like sweet sugar--but it's ok to do this stuff sparingly.

All things in moderation, right?

"But you shouldn't even need to use these things in writing, not if you're a true writer!"
Huh?

So am I missing something?

Click to expand...

Stephen King should be better than you. He's an English major, and was even an English teacher for a time.

All things in moderation, yes, but when and where also matters. You can't just say I'll use adjectives and adverbs poorly inmoderation. If the usage is poor, then any at all are too many. If the use is poor, then one adverb is too many, and most adverb use is poor. As Stephen King says, adverbs are not your friends. They do usually lead to weak writing. Odds are, if you need an adverb, you need stronger writing in the first place. Adverbs are most often used as a crutch.

And as maestrowork points out, adjectives are usually show, rather than tell.

There are times to use adverbs, and there are times to use adjectives, but it isn't a matter of overuse, it's a matter of using each only when it does the best possible job.

2 cents

This is just a trend. REcently, I've reread Great Gatsby. Lots and lots of adverbs there. Also, I found a lot in Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman. One thing I noticed is that the writer's magazines print a lot of articles about not overusing adverbs. People read it and consider that the rule. Basically, do what works. If your novel works with adverbs, it will sell. If it's not good, it won't sell. That's what it comes down to.

Adverbs

mesh138 said:

This is just a trend. REcently, I've reread Great Gatsby. Lots and lots of adverbs there. Also, I found a lot in Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman. One thing I noticed is that the writer's magazines print a lot of articles about not overusing adverbs. People read it and consider that the rule. Basically, do what works. If your novel works with adverbs, it will sell. If it's not good, it won't sell. That's what it comes down to.

Click to expand...

I think it's far more than just a trend. Writing styles change, and sometimes there's no going back. I don't think you could sell a novel written in the style of The Great Gatsby now, anymore than you could sell a novel written in the style of A Tale of Two Cities.

But as I said, it isn't the number of adverbs and adjectives you use, it's how well you use them. Uss only one adverb and only one adjective poorly, and you've written a bad sentences. Use a hundred properly and well, and you've written a hundred good sentences.

But most use is poor, and there's nothing trendy about poor use of anything.

"Do what works" is a fine rule, but writers use it to justify pretty much anything and everything. There is more abused rule than "do what works."
Most things do not work, and poor use of adjectives and adverbs does not work, no matter what trend is in effect. No matter how bad the writing, the writer is likely to invoke the "I'm just doing what works" rule.

One of the things writers will do is a lot of things like "he said angrily" all throughout the story. They use the adverb to convey the emotion instead of writing dialogue and narrative that conveys the emotion.

Likewise, in attempt to sound writerly, some writers will fill their work with adjectives that seem to be designed to impress people. Ideally, the reader should be paying attention to the content, not to whether a pretty, "writerly" word was used. Where one or two might be appropriate, they'll use twenty. I've seen people put so many in a couple pages that it's literally drowing the story.

It also isn't simply a matter of absolutes and avoiding altogether. Adverbs and adjectives do add texture to writing. I met a writer who believed in zero tolerance and didn't have any adverbs or adjectives at all. His writing was very flat, and worse still, he was spending a lot of time simply trying to write to eliminate them.

Rather, it's building the dialogue and narrative skills--and writing style--to do what the A words are doing. Just going through and eliminating the two types of words isn't enough; it's not uncommon to see someone say they've run out ways to show a character is angry (i.e., he pounded his fist) without the appropriate A word. They're looking for single phrases when they should be thinking, "Why isn't the dialogue doing the job?"

Last I got back from my writer's workshop, adjectives are in and adverbs aren't. (I shrug. I even shrug dismissively.)

Adjectives especially can't be tossed out. Imagine a story with no color names in it! Sure, you could use workarounds -- her eyes were the color of sapphires -- but that's usually inaccurate for eyes (and most other shades of blue require an adjective) and it requires the verb to be, which is much worse form.

"She blinked her eyes, which were the color of sapphires." Bzzt, NO.
"She blinked her bright blue eyes." Better. Still not a very well-crafted sentence, but all I'm trying to deliver here is ease of use.

For adverbs, note that most of the ways to rewrite the above sentence ("Adjectives especially can't be tossed out."), while keeping all meanings and losing the adverb, use more words. ("Adjectives in particular can't be tossed out."?)

Said + adverb is usually a clunky construct, but eventually, the Enlightened Writer will grow to hate all dialogue tags, and all dialogue. The Enlightened Writer will then write stories in which the characters populate a colony of mute mimes.

Oh, I'm sorry, is my sarcasm showing? =)

A. J. Luxton said:

Said + adverb is usually a clunky construct, but eventually, the Enlightened Writer will grow to hate all dialogue tags, and all dialogue. The Enlightened Writer will then write stories in which the characters populate a colony of mute mimes.

Oh, I'm sorry, is my sarcasm showing? =)

Click to expand...

Thanks, A.J. Laughing on a Monday morning is a rare and enjoyable experience.

'...a colony of mute mimes, whose thoughts are represented strictly in haiku format.'

mesh138 said:

This is just a trend. REcently, I've reread Great Gatsby. Lots and lots of adverbs there. Also, I found a lot in Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman. One thing I noticed is that the writer's magazines print a lot of articles about not overusing adverbs. People read it and consider that the rule. Basically, do what works. If your novel works with adverbs, it will sell. If it's not good, it won't sell. That's what it comes down to.

Click to expand...

It may be a trend, but it is what it is NOW and you're trying to get published NOW, not 75 years ago.

In the past, you could begin a book with long back stories and character studies and exposition. Moby Dick, for example, was one long exposition. That was fine THEN. Try to write a book like that now, and chances are you will never see it published.

Yes, DO WHAT WORKS. But also know what market you're in now. If you compare today's literature with the Great Gatsby or Moby Dick, then you're in for a big surprise.

Adverbs

In my first draft I use adverbs liberally. "He said angrily," "she said bitterly" and so on. Most of them act as placeholders for me, because in a subsequent draft I go through (literally using my search function on 'ly') and try to eliminate each one. I belong to the school which says they can be too much showing and not enough telling. So if at all possible I'll then rewrite the sentence, and provide description instead to show that he was angry and she was bitter.
If it's not possible; if the sentence is better with the adverb in it, then it stays. It has proven itself and earned its place then. Adverbs are like seasoning - some are essential, too many ruin the dish.

As for adjectives - ah lads, come on! They surely are our friends!

Adverbs and adjectives do the readers' job for them. I once had a beta complain that I didn't give a physical description of my MC - I replied, "That's up to you." I want to entertain people, not hold their hands through every page.

SC Harrison said:

'...a colony of mute mimes, whose thoughts are represented strictly in haiku format.'

Click to expand...

In awaking here,
I know my imprisonment:
A box of clear glass.

In description, I sometimes let the reader supply the adjective...
He wore her favorite shade of green.
Hopefully, every reader will visualize their own favorite shade of green.

In dialogue, no tag/ adverb needed if your words convey the feelings of the character.

"I did love you at one time."
"You've got to be kidding. You never loved me, never!"

"I hate you!"
"I wanted to hate you when I found out about her."

Does this make sense?

Oh, and here's a link I got from Making Light, about knocking Strunk & White down a peg:

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001905.html

The verdict -- 13% of White's own writing is made up of those adjectives and adverbs he professes to hate so much.

Cool! You learn something new every day.