Having A Manuscript Edited

Do you feel that it needs to be edited? What, specifically, would you want an editor to do for that $2500?

Mine went out having been reviewed by a few writer friends, and proofed by myself. There was still the occasional typo or missed word, but that didn't stop the publisher from buying it, or my agent from taking me on.

There are times when an editor is needed, but there are also many scams out there who will tell you that you need an editor, then refer you to their own company, or to an editor who gives the referrer a kickback for every author they fleece...

ByGrace said:

I read often that writers should have their manuscripts professionally edited before submitting it to agents or publishers. But what if a writer cannot afford the cost. I've seen some for my size manuacript go as high as $2,500! I have two kids in college and can't afford it. Plus how do you know if they will do a good enough job worthy of that kind of price?

So, if I can't afford to have my manuscript professionally edited, and I've done the best job I possibly can to edit it myself, is that okay? I hear agents want a perfect manuscript.

Any suggestions? I would like to get feedback on my novel, but I can't pay anyone. What should I do?

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If you want some feedback, why don't you post a chapter in the Share Your Work forum here and see what you get back? If you don't like what you see, you can google for writing workshops; not all of them require a fee (there's one called Critique Circle that's free).

It's definitely okay to self edit, in fact, it's preferable; why shell out such huge sums for editing? (And like JC said, there are a lot of scammers out there anyway.) If you're in doubt about your own editing, how about purchasing a copy of Self Editing For Fiction Writers by Rennie Browne & Dave King? You might be able to check out of the public library, too. I know a number of writers on this board swear by it.

Good luck!

~Nancy

ByGrace said:

I read often that writers should have their manuscripts professionally edited before submitting it to agents or publishers. But what if a writer cannot afford the cost. I've seen some for my size manuacript go as high as $2,500! I have two kids in college and can't afford it. Plus how do you know if they will do a good enough job worthy of that kind of price?

So, if I can't afford to have my manuscript professionally edited, and I've done the best job I possibly can to edit it myself, is that okay? I hear agents want a perfect manuscript.

Any suggestions? I would like to get feedback on my novel, but I can't pay anyone. What should I do?

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Edit it yourself. Do you have someone you can trust (friend, family, etc.) who can help you with proofreading and line-edit? Buy them dinners. It is very difficult to proofread your own work. If someone can help you fix the grammatical and spelling errors, and you focus on fixing the bigger things, you should be all set.

Or connect with a writing/editing partner. If you proofread and edit material back and forth with someone else who writes at a similar level, you don't have to feel you're taking advantage. Check out the Mentors and Writing Partners thread, if you don't have an acquaintance in mind. The people here are very generous.

Sometimes, though...

I agree that most people who call themselves freelance editors are scammers. However, there are some good ones out there, but yes, they cost a fortune.

I found a midpoint. I revised 12 drafts, until it was the best I could do, alone and with the help of writer/editor friends. Then I contacted an editor who'd purchased one of my essays (and who was instrumental in helping me streamline it); she wasn't available, but she called people she knew, and I wound up with a former New Yorker editor. She usually only works with A-list writers, so I was terrified (and honored) that she took me on as a bit of a charity case. I paid her $350 to read it through and give me overall notes.

Within two weeks, she spent an hour and a half on the phone with me, giving me mostly broad, structural notes (that I would never have figured out myself). Some of it was hard to hear ("You're a great writer, but I'm not sure this subject is of interest to anyone outside your family" - ouch!) - BUT she also gave me suggestions on how to make the story more accessible and universal, including a total shift in tone (which I completely agreed with).

So... Don't pick anyone off the web, and if you really want an editor, find one through networking, and check her references.

[Progress report: Fast forward 12 months: I've been writing every day for the past year (I've been so out of touch with AW because my new job is basically a continuation of the Idol contest - marathon writing!). I took a week off to revisit the mss and was horrified. Depressed. After much self-flagellation, I realized that I've become a better writer over the past year. I still haven't sent it out - my deadline is October 4 - and I'm not quite sure how (or when!) I'm going to fix it, but I'm *very* glad I went the editor direction first. Also, I know who I'm sending it to, and to whom it will be passed along, which is a large part of my anxiety and perfectionism]

Cheers,
Sarah, The Prodigal AWer

Manuscript editing is one of the services I perform. I've done maybe 10 thus far. I charge almost nothing...and before taking it on I try to convince the author to do it themselves and save the money. I always argue that it is not necessary until it gets accepted and the publisher assigns an editor to do it as part and parcel of the publishing process. I have only edited manuscripts for people I know...and only after trying to talk them out of it. The most I ever charged was $200.00 CDN. (And that was because there was a lot of work to be done on the manuscript in question.) I make no money editing manuscripts...I do it only because I love to do it and I consider it a learning experience for myself.

I completely understand ByGrace's choice to look for more economical options than hiring a professional editor. (I'm an editor, and quite fraknly I'm pretty expensive.) I think the suggestions of seeking a critique group and availing yourself of print resources were great ones. You may find that once you go through all of that you'll still want to hire an editor, but the work you put into the manscript should save you some money if you start looking for someone again.

Speaking of which, I was thinking about other folks' comments on their experience with editing, and I got kind of riled up. :] I hate that there are jerks out there who take advantage of writers who just want to get published--and I also hate being lumped in with those meanies simply because I'm an editor. In the interest of not totally hijacking the thread, I wrote a blog entry on it instead of waxing eloquent here. (The link to my blog is in my sig line if anyone wants to check it out.)

Kristen

I used a professional editor for the novel that I am currently circulating. I had written 5 drafts of it, had it critiqued by my writing group, critiqued by other good writers that I knew and when it went to the editor it was in good shape. The editor made it better. It was worth the money. The editor I used is a distinguished former editorial director with a formidable reputation who I had heard of before I used his services. I would recommend him whole-heartedly. I paid £350; not cheap but a reasonable investment when stood alongside the time I've put into my work.

KTC said:

Manuscript editing is one of the services I perform. I've done maybe 10 thus far. I charge almost nothing... I make no money editing manuscripts...I do it only because I love to do it and I consider it a learning experience for myself.

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You sound like me. I absolutely love to edit/proofread, and used to do it all the time for free up through college. Even now I'll sometimes do it for free (my general prices are very low and I work with people according to their needs) just because I enjoy it so much. It's always been an enjoyable hobby throughout my school years, and now it makes for an enjoyable hobby AND career.

Kristen King said:

Speaking of which, I was thinking about other folks' comments on their experience with editing, and I got kind of riled up. :] I hate that there are jerks out there who take advantage of writers who just want to get published--and I also hate being lumped in with those meanies simply because I'm an editor.

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I agree. It's sad that there are jerks who take advantage, and then ruin it for the rest of us who truly love what we do, and love helping people.

Here's what I think: if your book has a few typos or a couple of strange grammar errors, I don't care. If it flows well, holds my interest, and is well researched, then we can fix the mistakes in house. If the manuscript needs a content editor or even a concept editor, then it's not ready to go anywhere. If you can't find a solid reader (with some editing experience) or aren't getting enough out of your critique group, then I don't see the harm in finding a legitimate editor to help. I can't imagine paying $2500 to someone to fix my writing, though, since if it costs that much, I would suspect there's something majorly amiss with the work, in general.

Nomad, your observation about something being "majorly amiss with the work in general" when the price is quite high is a great one. So... you can spend $2500 per manuscript to have each one "fixed," or you could spend $2500 one time on several writing classes at the community college and then know how do to it right the first time for the rest of your life. Will you still need a copyeditor or a proofreader for your manuscript? Probably--we all do. But it sure as heck won't cost $2500 for proofreading (unless, of course, your book positively enormous).

Kristen

As a writer, I can't say that I would pay excessive sums for editing either. As an editor, I can honestly say that I get more manuscripts than I can handle alone. Submissions just from my website often take up a majority of my time. I do it because I love it, and I charge for it only because I have to. I do try to keep my fees reasonable, just enough to cover my costs for the website, as well as other administrative costs, and of course, that vortex of all consumables, time. So what it really boils down to is how the writer feels about the manuscript. If you just want an opinion, have a friend or family member read it, just remember that they may not tell you the whole truth because of your relationship with them. Sharing with other writers is great too. Use whatever resources are available to you, and if you still want a professional opinion, just look for a small freelance editor that has been checked out by people here.

www.rogersediting.com

Hi Grace,

If you do have it professionally edited - and it can't be that bad surely - don't mention it when submitting the manuscript. Mentioning it won't give you any advantage, and at worst will open the question of why it had to be professionally edited at all.

Bufty said:

If you do have it professionally edited...don't mention it when submitting the manuscript. Mentioning it won't give you any advantage, and at worst will open the question of why it had to be professionally edited at all.

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I think this is an excellent point. One should never advertise one's incompetence. I'm not saying that needing an editor makes you completely incompetent--particularly since hey, we all need one--but there's no good reason to draw an agent or publisher's attention to your weaknesses, whatever they may be.

Kristen

Um, yeah. If you think that is a selling point, please think again.

Beta readers, workshopping, Elements of Style, Chicago Manual of Style, the whole whopping 808 section of the library, posting on AW, and helping others edit their work (for free & to give them feedback) are all alternatives to paying someone to do what you're gonna learn anyway in the course of a lifelong career as a writer.

I did all of the above before making my first sale, and it ain't rocket science.

If you're just doing a one-off book then going back to your career at the pantyhose factory, then hiring an editor for a book is reasonable.

Some rip artist charging you 2,500 samoleons for the job is not. That's more than many an advance check.

The editors I know (and I'm one of them) charge around a buck a page, extra if the book really needs work.

If the book is just too awful I hand it and the check back and tell 'em try-try again.

I give you credit for staying at it--some writers just refuse to listen. There's one in my workshop group that I no longer critique because she ignores everything I and the others tell her.

Though she *could* write better, the e-market she wants to get into has very low standards. She's writing badly because she thinks that's the level they accept, then that's the level to aim for (the lazy ditzt).

I've given up telling her she's shooting herself in the foot with that 'tude. Since it's not my group to run she stays on, wasting everyone's time--unless one can count it as a "don't do this" example to the other members.

The host of the group is a very nice, easy-going type (a.k.a. The Enabler), so there are other time wasters in it. My other least fav is a gal who brings in the same %&* chapter--just reworked a little--each time. She's stuck on it until she gets it right.

Ain't never gonna happen.

Gillhoughly said:

Some rip artist charging you 2,500 samoleons for the job is not. That's more than many an advance check.

The editors I know (and I'm one of them) charge around a buck a page, extra if the book really needs work.

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A buck a page? Seriously? Do you do this for a living, or is it a hobby/side thing for fun and a few extra bucks?

Kristen

I'm a professional writer and editor (print houses with HC, trade & mass market PBs under my belt), and it strikes me that a buck a page is a fair payment for a 400-page novel. I don't do short stories or non-fiction. Term papers and the like, well, the student is on his own; he should have paid attention during 5th grade English.

I have yet to read anything by an unpublished writer that I was willing to edit. Usually after a few pages I tell them it's too soon, go back to the keyboard. They were disappointed, but I wasn't going to take money unless they had a snowball's chance of selling it. I point them to the 808 section and give them a push.

If I went into MS editing full time it would not only take away from my own writing but I'd reach burn-out, fast. I love this craft and have tremendous respect for the editors who plow through slush on a daily basis. My job as a writer is to make dang sure they have as little work as possible to do on anything I turn in.

As I've said and will keep on saying--this ain't rocket science. If I can learn it, so can others; you just have to want it enough and stay at it.

Maybe others charge more, and we know still others charge WAY more. Check their resumes. If all their writers have published are vanity, POD, and e-books, then run away. Go to AnotherRealm dot com and check the listings for scammers. Post on AW and ask for advice on this or that service. If the editor or book doctor's website is full of typos, spelling, and grammer errors, run away!

Gillhoughly said:

I'm a professional writer and editor (print houses with HC, trade & mass market PBs under my belt), and it strikes me that a buck a page is a fair payment for a 400-page novel.
...
Maybe others charge more, and we know still others charge WAY more.

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I'm really surprised by that figure. You can charge anything you want and I am absolutely not trying to tell you what you "should" be doing or anything of that nature, but I'm just kind of floored by $1/page, so I hope you'll be up for a little discussion?

Even if you're a pretty fast editor, $1/page is like $10-$12/hour, and a full-time professional editor (FTPE) can't live on that, so yeah, there are a lot of people out there who charge "WAY more." Charging less doesn't automatically make you unprofessional, and charging a lot doesn't automatically make you professional. However, people who are serious about editing and do it full time simply cannot afford to charge rates like that, and charging a living wage doesn't make them scam artists. (I know that's not what you're saying, Gillhoughly, but I keep hearing it lately and it's driving me nuts!)

So how are FTPEs/FTFEs supposed to navigate the evidently fuzzy border between making a living and being perceived as big fat scammers?

Kristen

Kristen King said:

Even if you're a pretty fast editor, $1/page is like $10-$12/hour, and a full-time professional editor (FTPE) can't live on that

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Probably not, but I make my money as a writer and have a part-time (non-writing) job on the side. Editing is not my primary focus. I'm good at it, but writing is how I breathe.

Neos sometimes ask if I "could look at" their book. I tell them "sure, gimme 400.00 bucks"--which is usually enough to make them blink. Then I send them to the library and to AW.

So how are FTPEs/FTFEs supposed to navigate the evidently fuzzy border between making a living and being perceived as big fat scammers?

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Haven't a clue. My experience is from the fiction writer's POV. There are things common to all professions: you just do a great job, charge a fair rate for both parties, and post success stories.

Kristen,
I don't think anyone here has accused you or anyone else of scamming people. What are the standard rates for freelance editing? If you have clients who are satisfied with your rates, you do a good job, and you have plenty of clients, then it doesn't sound like it's an issue. Do I think $2500 sounds like an exorbitant amount of money to spend editing a manuscript that may or may not ever be published? You bet. Do I think $1 a page seems too low? Yes, unless you are doing people a favor, as Gilloughly seems to be doing. My personal feeling on the subject, as both an editor and writer, is that there are so many no-cost or low-cost ways to have your worked reviewed, critiqued, and evaluated that I can't imagine spending money to have someone do it for me. I think it's more a matter of knowing where to go, what questions to ask, and then making the most of the feedback you receive.

Nomad said:

Kristen,
I don't think anyone here has accused you or anyone else of scamming people.

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I don't feel accused, and I don't mean to imply that I do, but I do think that there's a sentiment that editors are sketchy that's coming up in a variety of places, not just here, and I don't get it.

Nomad said:

What are the standard rates for freelance editing?

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Well, it depends on who you ask, but most full-time freelance editors I know charge no less (and frequently more) than...
$2/page proofreading
$4/page copyediting
$6/page substantive editing
$8/page developmental editing

Nomad said:

My personal feeling on the subject, as both an editor and writer, is that there are so many no-cost or low-cost ways to have your worked reviewed, critiqued, and evaluated that I can't imagine spending money to have someone do it for me. I think it's more a matter of knowing where to go, what questions to ask, and then making the most of the feedback you receive.

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I couldn't agree more. If you can get exactly what you want and need for no cost, you'd be a dummy to shell out bucks for it when you could get the very same thing for free. However, if you can't get what you need through those routes, researching other options is smart. Critique groups are awesome, but they're critique groups, not professional editing. They play two different roles, you know? (Well, I know you know that, Nomad. :])

Kristen

Thanks, Kristen--I mostly just wanted to get the freelance rates up on this thread so people know what to expect and what they get when they pay up. So, people: if you want your manuscript edited, proofed, etc., Kristen has posted a range of 'standard' rates (standard meaning that she is a professional freelancer, knows professional freelancers, and has provided us with rates based on this expertise) that some editors charge.

If you're paying thousands of dollars to someone to edit your manuscript, time to rethink the manuscript. If you're paying someone to do a proofread because you have a great story, good writing, but aren't terrific with the spelling, good idea.