Anyone interested in fantastic worlds and cultures?

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Shweta

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(Fantastic in the Fantasy sense, that is.)

My personal obsession is with characters within a culture, and with how the world they live in affects them. I'm wondering if anyone else shares this obsession, and wants to talk Culture.

By which I mean language, mythology, taboos, social norms... all the things that make up a culture, and might affect characters and stories.

There's a lot of recent work in cognitive anthropology and psycholinguistics that shows that the way people think and act is affected pretty strongly by the culture they're in, the language(s) they speak, the mental models they've grown up with, the technology they use every day, and so forth.

I see much more science fiction than fantasy that deals with this, and I'd like to pose questions and try to answer them from a fantasy perspective. Anyone else?
 

Shweta

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They're interesting. I'd like to see fiction involving them.

But I more meant creating worlds, creating cultures, and creating characters within those. Having the culture be a large part of the story, something pervasive.
 

MarkN

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I think that's the mark of truly great fantasy, because the contrast (between the fantasy culture and our own) says so much about how our own culture influences us in ways we're not aware of. Anyone can imagine fuzzy cutesy unicorn land where everybody's happy, but to create a fantasy world with a culture that's compelling, cohesive, and different--that's a sign of genius.
 

sunandshadow

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My novel-in-progress is a science-fantasy like this. It's a science fantasy in that the human character considers the others aliens and looks at the world from a modern scientific perspective, while the 'alien' characters can do magic and look at the world through their mythological teachings. The overall plot is sort of about the alien's culture - how they have become hidebound, which results in a plague of infertility, which has to be solved by the main characters defying tradition and forcing the rest of the culture tobecome more adaptable.
 

Diana Hignutt

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I'm not that into the cultures of fantasy worlds. Sure, you gotta have 'em, but I'd advise against getting too caught up in them.

Great stories with great characters are what's needed to find success in writing this genre, as with any other genre.

You need enough stuff to make your characters, settings, etc. believable, but it is IMO a mistake to get carried away with languages and cultures in fantasy books. When too much time is spent on them, the result is a distraction to the reader.

But hey, I've definitely been wrong before...
 

ChaosTitan

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I tend to write in the science fiction or paranormal fantasy categories, so I don't have a great deal to offer in the way of discussion.

I am dabbling with ideas for a fantasy story with a stronger resemblance to traditional epic/sword and sorcery fantasy. A world that is caught between the old ways of magic (immortal gods are all locked away by spells, fantastic creatures like elves no longer exist), and the monotheistic new ways. It's all simmering together in the back of my mind, waiting for its turn.

I do, however, love the idea of culture. I enjoyed those kinds of classes in school. People fascinate me (and frustrate me in equal measure).

I am working on another story set on a far future Earth, co-created with a friend. But instead of having colonized space, we have colonized the oceans and cannot go to the surface because of environmental devastation.

The fun has come from figuring out who these people are and how they live. Some are upper class, most are lower class. What are daily interactions like when you can't go outside and have a picnic? Or attend a football game on Friday nights?

How has our language changed? You can't really insult someone by telling them to "take a long walk off a short pier," because they don't know what a pier is. No one has ever seen a horse.

I don't want to hijack your thread away from the fantasy aspect of the discussion. ;) We have similar interests, just not quite common ground.
 

Shweta

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long post!

Chaos, hijacking the thread is perfectly okay :) I think it's interesting to hear the different viewpoints. And your worlds sound really interesting. I wonder if cultural differences would go even deeper, underwater. For example, people would move in three dimensions, and not just two, so having the higher ground would no longer prove an advantage in combat. Would people stop talking about being "top dog (dogfish?)" or having an advantage "over" another person?

I'm not any kind of Fantasy Purist. I'm fishing for fantasy people who like worldbuilding more because they're less common, than because I have any lack of interest in SF worldbuilding. (I wonder why science fiction people seem to care so much more about the "speculative" part of speculative fiction than fantasy people do, overall.) I write fantasy, but I hope that doesn't limit my interests to fantasy :)

Sunandshadow, I'd love to hear more about your cultures. I think the idea of having to break out of a hidebound culture is a great one; and when you have a fully-thought-out culture it can let you know where the difficulties come from.

Diana
, while I appreciate the strong position you take, I do have to disagree with it. (Which is a nice thing about strong positions, they lead to discussion). I don't think fantasy is so cohesive a genre that culture/language will always distract from the story. Sometimes they will, sure, but they can be an important facet of the story.

Strong characters are affected by their culture, aren't they? Or else why do they live in Fantasyland, and not in, say, England? Ditto plots.

I point to the Earthsea trilogy, where there is no story without the culture and its assumptions. Or in Science Fiction, the Player of Games, or anything at all by Ursula LeGuin. These are successful -- and I think spectacular -- examples of the genre, and they care about how culture affects thought.

I do! agree that we don't want to just load stories down with Culture! and Language! and thus slow them down and make the readers roll their eyes and feel like they're in class. But there's a difference between dumping it all into the book, and knowing the background in detail and incluing just what's necessary, yeah?

MarkN, I don't know what makes "great" fantasy, but I know the fantasy I like best gets into the details of life in a culture.

Do you think it's hard to come up with a culture that's different? Or just to convey it properly? People come into these stories with so many assumptions... I have trouble even writing plausibly about India.

My thoughts on culture-language:

I am writing about a culture where the magic works so well they've forgotten that it's real and they need it, because they have no memory of what happens when it fails. And their magical prieshoods have turned into political organizations more than spiritual ones.

I also have a character who translates old documents, and that's where she gets some of her information -- information that's been mostly forgotten. So details of language and culture are plot-relevant.
I wouldn't think they'd be relevant to a more standard action-adventure type story, or a quest story; and if I was writing one of those I wouldn't put so much emphasis on the culture/language.

But I'd still want to know it.
 
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sunandshadow

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Diana - Ii would argue that for multiplot novels in particular (those are the ones with several viewpoint characters or faction, whose stories weave together like a tapestry) strong culture building is essential to give the book cohesion and unity. Consider Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, they have lots of great characters and memorable and meaningful stories, but the principle which motivated the creation of those great characters and stories was the ideas of portraying a cross-section of society.

Shweta - Sure, I'm always happy to talk about my WIP. :D My dragon-aliens (this is what the human dubs them, from their own perspective they're People) are biologically like a humanoid bird-dinosaur. Their species used to fly, so they have hollow bones and feathers and wings and lay eggs, but their evolution favored size over flight, so modern civilized dragons are large with useless vestigial wings and feathers only on their cockatoo-like crest, wings, and tail tip (like how humans lost their fur except at head, armpits, and groin).

The dragons have scent glands and scent-mark their territory, which may at first seem unusual for bird-like creatures, but some birds such as vultures have good senses of smell, and scent is a natural way for ground-bound 'flocks' of dragons to mark their territory. They do live in flocks, or clans, or prides, or whatever you want to call them. Basically a dominant male defends a territory, is supported by one or two subordinate males who are usually his brothers, and together they hunt for and protect one or more females and their offspring. In a civilized setting subordinate males are a political necessity as well as a practical one, so if a guy has the ill-luck to not have any brothers he has to adopt a cousin or a best friend as a blood brother if he ever wants to rule a territory.

Because clans tend to have more 'wives' than 'husbands' there is a prevailing shortage of marrigeable females and excess of bachelor males. So females of marriageable age are usually given to an established clan as part of an arranged marriage, usually tied to a trade agreement. Sons of an established clan may inherit that clan, or sons of a particularly rich clan may be given funding to establish a new clan, but sons of poor clans, sons whose fathers have died, those rejected by their brothers or fathers for being too much of a troublemaker, and those born to 'unwedded mothers' all tend to end up in mercenary bands. They are not soldiers so much as they are migrant workers, commonly employed for large architectural construction projects, hunting a particularly dangerous beast, guarding trade caravans, etc.

The dragons do not cultivate fields, their agriculture is limited to managing fruit and nut trees. They have strong claws and good legs for running and springing so they usually hunt bare-handed, but they can also make nets and traps. They have medieval-level technology and most dragons have one small magic talent or another, and these are casually used in everyday life, and taught informally along with other job skills.

So, the hideboundness and pressures of change. Traditionally clans were widely distributed, but with the growth of technology towns have sprung up, a town being a cluster of houses, each of whose territory is a wedge radiating out from the town center, like the slices of a pizza. With towns a noble class emerges, and the idea of an organized army to defend the town, and a rudimentary school (dojo) to train the soldiers, etc.

The dragons put a lot of emphasis on ritual and doing everything the traditional way, which is related to the importance of family and individual reputation in their society. They also have a religion based on the idea that everyone has a totem, fits into the social category with that totem, and is supposed to 'be fruitful and multiply' because this contributes to their racial destiny of reaching a nirvana-like state of collective godhood.

Really everything comes down to children - bachelors struggling to sort themselves into dominant/subordinate hierarchies, claim a territory and a mate so they can have children, protect the fragile eggs the children are in, and behave traditionally so that the clan accrues a good reputation and can help the children make good marriages, rinse and repeat.

So to 'hit them where it hurts' I introduced mutant children, a mysterious plague of infertility, and some homosexuals trying to find love even though no children will get produced that way. The traditional culture is afraid of change and clamps down even harder when threatened by new things, which is a dead-end road, like trying to avoid growing pains by refusing to grow up; the moral is that they can't achieve their racial destiny by looking to the past, they have to embrace the future, because only in new ideas will they find solutions to their problems.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Shweta, I think we're in agreement. My point was more of a cry against too much culture being introduced. Obviously, you need to establish that you're dealing with a fantastic world. That's gonna involve some sort of introduction of culture. It's when authors, particularly new authors look at Tolkien, and decide to bore us all silly with syntax and extraneneous cultural facts. I take the line that if it advances the story or characters its okay, if it doesn't you may find yourself with an unreadable bible-like monstrousity like the Silmarillion. And nobody wants that. Especially not editors.

Sunandshadow, I cede your point, but with a provisio. If anyone has read my books, sure there's fantastic culture there. I describe all kinds of Yule traditions for the Kingdom of Lorm in my Empress of Clouds, but I don't get bogged down in it, and everything I describe has the characters reacting or interacting with it. I've tried to find the balance between a minimalist cultural presentation style of say, King's Eye of the Dragon, or even Tolkien's The Hobbit, and versus Stephen R. Donaldson's ( etc.) style. I try to stay with the characters, and I tend to write fantasy thrillers, and am more interested in getting the readers turning page after page to find out what happens to the characters. The character is where your money is. IMO.
 
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ChaosTitan

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Shweta said:
For example, people would move in three dimensions, and not just two, so having the higher ground would no longer prove an advantage in combat. Would people stop talking about being "top dog (dogfish?)" or having an advantage "over" another person?

Interesting questions!

I almost said yes, but the longer I thought about it, I realized that no, those sort of comments might remain the same. You are correct that their means of travel will become a little more three dimensional, but it will remain mostly 2-D east-south-north-west kinds of travel, along established routes. No one goes to the surface, so traveling up and down (that third dimension) is very rare. The vast majority of the population live in cities built on the ocean floor (or on ridges, etc, still doing research on that). They are only on ships for travel (much the same as we use airplanes).

Thanks for making me think!
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Shweta said:
(I wonder why science fiction people seem to care so much more about the "speculative" part of speculative fiction than fantasy people do, overall.)

Because speculation is part and parcel to the genre. I'm going to borrow this quote from Benjamin Appel:

Science fiction reflects scientific thought; a fiction of things-to-come based on things-on-hand.

In SF, we don't get to make up as much.
wink.gif
Speculation comes from imagining what might be from what is right now. We will never have your Smaug-esque dragons flying around, but could nuclear radiation mutate a gecko into some new monstrous beast?

Wait, was your question rhetorical?
biggrin.gif
 

sunandshadow

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Diana Hignutt said:
Sunandshadow, I cede your point, but with a provisio. If anyone has read my books, sure there's fantastic culture there. I describe all kinds of Yule traditions for the Kingdom of Lorm in my Empress of Clouds, but I don't get bogged down in it, and everything I describe has the characters reacting or interacting with it. I've tried to find the balance between a minimalist cultural presentation style of say, King's Eye of the Dragon, or even Tolkien's The Hobbit, and versus Stephen R. Donaldson's ( etc.) style. I try to stay with the characters, and I tend to write fantasy thrillers, and am more interested in getting the readers turning page after page to find out what happens to the characters. The character is where your money is. IMO.

I agree that the characters have to be involved in the culture to make it a natural and interesting topic for the book to talk about. I would pick LeGuin (Left Hand of Darkness) and Auel (Clan of the Cave Bear) as two authors who are experts at presenting a rich, deep culture without anything seeming bogged down.
 

Shweta

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On dragons:

They do internal fertilization, I take it, for sex to be a part of their reproduction?

On oceans:

Does the different nature of gravity play a part in their conceptual structures, eve if they normally travel in two dimensions?

On culture:

It seems to me that they only way to get people to think about a really different culture is to describe it and to include details. I guess part of why SF can do this more easily is that you can have a human observer of a weird race. Harder to get anthropologists into fantasy.

It wasn't a rhetorical question, chaos. I happen to think fantasy is (potentially) spec fic jut as much as SF, just not in as... literal a way.
 

sunandshadow

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Yep internal fertilization, and they go through heat cycles - the females are fertile (and of course horny) and give off heat-scent which is mesmerizing to males for a 3-day stretch each month.
 

ChaosTitan

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Shweta said:
On oceans:

Does the different nature of gravity play a part in their conceptual structures, eve if they normally travel in two dimensions?

At the risk of sounding like a complete moron, what do you mean by conceptual structures? Their homes? :Shrug:
 

sunandshadow

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A conceptual structure is an idea, a diagram, of how invisible things might be organized. Like a diagram of the management structure of a corporation shows the CEO at the top of a pyramid, and this corresponds to phrases like "top of the heap", "king of the hill", paragon, etc.
 

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Ah ha! Thank you, sunandshadow!

Then to answer Shweta's question, no. Because gravity underwater has the same force as gravity on land. It doesn't seem that way, because the bouyancy of water keeps you afloat whenever you go swimming. So people won't be bouncing around their underwater cities like Armstrong on the moon.

Scuba diving sites have great information. :D

The one detail that will have to be investigated further, though is pressure. The deeper down you go, the more pressure is exerted on both human and vessel/city. I vaguely recall (I think!) an episode of seaQuest, DSV where a small ship was sucked deep down into a crevice and the poor little ship was smashed from the sheer force of the pressure surrounding it. Ouch!
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Shweta said:
It wasn't a rhetorical question, chaos. I happen to think fantasy is (potentially) spec fic jut as much as SF, just not in as... literal a way.
As I understand it, speculative fiction refers to both sci-fi AND fantasy. In both, you are speculating about what a world would be like if it was different from today's world. What will the world be like in a thousand years? What would the world be like with such-and-such a type of technology? What would today's world be like if there was a hidden world of magic? What if medieval times really had dragons and unicorns and fairies? What if another planet has dragons and unicorns and fairies? All speculative.
 

Shweta

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Chaos: I think I misunderstood you. I thought that your people spent more time actually *in* the water, but now I understand them to live in dome-cities and not actually spend much time in the ocean itself?

In that case, yeah, take back all my questions.

And add a question: Do they talk about stormy relationships and sunny personalities any more?
 
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Shweta

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So I just spent 30 minutes trying to figure out how to say purple.

I know which Basic Color Terms (c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_name) my language has, and purple ain't one of 'em. It has white, black, blue, red, and a cover term for green and yellow.

This is culturally significant.

This doesn't mean I'm going to wander into linguistic theory and tell my readers any of this. But it does mean I won't use the word 'purple' when my viewpoint is that of a character. (I'm being a little inconsistent about this; for example, my characters are spending time even though they have a barter economy, because it's just the most transparent way of saying it.)

So anyway, I figured I needed a term like "amethyst" or "violet" or "indigo". Referring to something in the world. Now, my people probably have indigo, but they'd call the dye blue; and I assume my readers don't know that the flowers can be purple. And I'm pretty sure they don't have violets in a rainforest.

So that led me to figure out where you'd find amethysts. And whether a basically sedimentary/metamorphic mix of rocks would allow it. Because yes, I know what the local geology is; how else could I figure out building materials? Being me, I had to figure out plate tectonics to get to the geology.

Yes, I am obsessive. But having done this, I know that my people have amethysts! Yay!
 

bylinebree

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Ok, your thread is interesting! Hope my blurb isn't too long...

Note on the language -- yes, I found that because of the culture in my first created fantasy kingdom, many of their idioms and such were related to water and it's flora/fauna.

Your geologic research resonated with me -- my created world-kingdom (first novel) are islands on a temperate, inland lake. They are rich in gemstones/jewels, but since my college science classes were thirty years ago, I needed help.
Enter a geologist at our local world-building (WB) writers workshop last year! We had a geologist, botanist, biologist, craftspeople, a druid, a rockclimber, etc, lecture and offer displays, and informal ask-an-expert times to ask our WB questions of. It was so helpful in adding detail and a sense of reality to my kingdom of islands.

I bent their ears and found out that my ideas - the islands with jewel-mining, for ex - were sound. (Like you discovered in the sedimentary/metamorphic information. ) The botanist gave me ideas I hadn't thought of before, like mentioning that isolated islands often have unique forms of life. His comment supported a certain mammal peculiar to the islands I had already created, hmmmm.

Alot of what I find out is backwards -- I create it first, then find an echo of it in our real world, then I've gone on to add some fantastic elements to make it "mine."

I also LOVE the interaction or clash of cultures, fantasy or not. My own stories figure these ideas of biculturalism quite a bit. Like having characters from enemy nations fall in love, or need help from each other in solving problems.

Isn't it amazing how varied our ideas and WB results are?
 

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I love this thread. We need to discuss World Building, because, hey, it is very important in the competitive SF and Fantasy fields. It can be the deciding factor in whether a good book, or even a great book gets published. It's not the end-all, but I have found that some major agents and more than a few genre editors think that it IS pivitol.

Tri
 

Shweta

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Yay, people are interested!

bylinebree, something I find interesting is that there are always clashing cultures or subcultures. My nation is entirely (magically) isolated, and they think they're the only humans in the world (though they're not sure), but no culture is monolithic.

I'm not quite sure yet how much detail to give the different cultures and subcultures. I think it might be a between-drafts issue.
 
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bylinebree

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I think the amount of details depends on how that would enhance or develop plot, character or conflict. If not, it's probably wallpaper and should be left out.

We all just looove our fantasy worlds so much, we could go on about them all day, eh? (ad nauseum, unfortunately for our non-invested listeners!)

As for my first book, I did go back and add-in more details according to what beta readers wanted to know and in refining the writing to be more descriptive, to add dimension and yet not slime it with "dross."

As to clashing cultures...what intrigues me is to find a way for these divergent people to connect, to accept differences without compromising their own beliefs or identity as 'whatever.' I'm more interested in what may make them 'get along', trying to be creative about the process in the story -- whether it's a love relationship developing, or a political problem, for ex.
 
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