With all the talk of Self Publishing I have a question

Book stores won't shelve POD books.

As you are taking about runs and 1000 dollar investments perhaps you don't really mean 'print on demand'?

Silverhand said:

has anyone heard any solid strategies to make a self-published book successful?

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No.

Silverhand said:

Obviously, I understand if it is good it will sell itself, but I am talking about marketing.

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Your first mistake.

I got to talking to a woman at another website who'd self-published her novel and was very pleased with it. Like many POD authors, she'd came to the site solely to brag/spam, pretending she had discovered this brilliant novel and wanted to share her enthusiasm, rather than being forthcoming about writing it.

Of course, somebody did a little looking around and figured her out immediately. She was unfazed.

Anyway, she said she spent about $2800. She's sold about thirty copies, over a two-year period, giving it everything she's got. She's satisfied, pleased as can be to call herself "published author." (Ain't they all?)

I wouldn't call that success. I'd call it deluding herself. The regulars at that site found it pretty sad, me included.

Maryn, who'd self-publish only if she had a work suited to a niche market

You can shelve a few copies at local stores, especially if you pay for them yourself? Yes, this seems in line with figures from PA and iuniverse suggesting sales of 20-40 copies per anum on average. To take up any offers further away I suggest trying to find a POD company that has some kind of discount and returns policy--you'll have to look hard. Perhaps Aventine. Did you ask them who published the ones they were carrying? Because 10 per month is a vanishingly small percentage of those produced and it would be good to know how to win that lottery.

Silverhand said:

I am not to this point yet, but I imagine that if it comes down to shelving my novel completely or POD I will take the latter.

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Actually, I think this is your first mistake. Most writers have several novels in boxes in their garages or stuffed under their beds that they once thought were perfectly wonderful, but which they couldn't publish professionally.

If you can't publish your novel professionally, you should shelve it and write something better. Everyone has a learning curve, and the stumbling block here isn't whether you can make a go of a POD-published novel. It's whether you can write a book that large numbers of readers want to read.

Silverhand, is this your first attempt at a novel? Your third? Fifth?

http://booksandtales.com/pod/index.php



Here is a reasonably accurate summary of many POD companies--you may notice that distribution through chain stores does not get mentioned for any of them. I imagine none of them accept returns and any mentioned discounts are limited to 20-30%. That will prevent any serious penetration of the big 'B's.

Silverhand said:

Powells was willing to take any POD novel with an ISBN #, cleanly edited, decent artwork, and well written. They expected me to provide them a novel before they said "yes" or "no". The store manager was nice enough to provide me some figures. They house about 10 new novels from Self-Published and POD authors per month. They retain around 1-2 that they then purchase routinely from. The ones they keep past the initial month all sell somewhere between 500-3000 copies in their stores located in Oregon, Washington, and N. California (Though the manager said they own stores not abiding with their names.)

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What doesthey own stores not abiding with their names mean?

The ones they keep past the initial month all sell somewhere between 500-3000 copies in their stores

I'd be interested in the names of self-pubbed novels that sell 3000 copies.

HConn said:

If you can't publish your novel professionally, you should shelve it and write something better. Everyone has a learning curve, and the stumbling block here isn't whether you can make a go of a POD-published novel. It's whether you can write a book that large numbers of readers want to read.

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I disagree. Agents are just people and people make mistakes. If you can't write a query letter that snags their attention is it because your novel is crap or just that you don't know how to sell your novel. Beatrix Potter's "A Tale of Peter Rabbit" was self-published as was the perennial "The Elements of Style". Yes, the one written by Strunk & White.

And what about all the consolidation that went on in the publishing industry? There's less opportunity for writers to get published via traditional methods.

What is so wrong about a person wanting to self-finance the publication of their book? If they go into the process with their eyes open, and aren't under any delusions that they won't sell many copies, what's so wrong with that? Is it not better that 30 people read your book than no one at all?

... self-published as was the perennial "The Elements of Style". Yes, the one written by Strunk & White.

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Strunk self-published "The Elements of Style" for the convenience of the students taking his English class, not because commercial publishers were too blind to see its genius. I don't find that example a compelling argument for the-success-that-can-be-yours if you self-publish.

What is so wrong about a person wanting to self-finance the publication of their book? If they go into the process with their eyes open, and aren't under any delusions that they won't sell many copies, what's so wrong with that? Is it not better that 30 people read your book than no one at all?

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There's nothing inherently wrong with someone self-publishing with their eyes open and no delusions. However, those 30 readers? It's extremely likely you'll know them all by name, so why pay to self-publish a book when you could just hand those 30 friends and family members a copy of your manuscript? You'd still have readers, and your wallet would be fatter.

DED said:

I disagree. Agents are just people and people make mistakes. If you can't write a query letter that snags their attention is it because your novel is crap or just that you don't know how to sell your novel. Beatrix Potter's "A Tale of Peter Rabbit" was self-published as was the perennial "The Elements of Style". Yes, the one written by Strunk & White.

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Hello. Potter's book was first published in 1902. Things have changed since then. You should use more recent examples.

DED said:

And what about all the consolidation that went on in the publishing industry? There's less opportunity for writers to get published via traditional methods.

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I have spent the last several months reading nothing (well, almost nothing) but sf/f novels by first-time novelists. These are books published in 2005-06 and only within those genres. I've read about ten so far, with a couple more still to go. I don't know how many first novels I'd have in front of me if I was investigating genres with a larger market share.

I wanted to see what publishers were looking for in new books, but what has also struck me is how wrong your "less opportunity" comment is. New books are coming out. All you have to do is be good enough.

I have a book I'm trying to market. It's very tempting to blame the current level of disinterest in it on outside forces: industry consolidation, big slush piles, whatever. I'm not going to fall for that temptation. I'm going to write another book, a more interesting book, and try to market it. I'm going to behave as though the obstacles between me and a decent-sized readership are problems I can solve. This has the added advantage of being true.

DED said:

What is so wrong about a person wanting to self-finance the publication of their book? If they go into the process with their eyes open, and aren't under any delusions that they won't sell many copies, what's so wrong with that? Is it not better that 30 people read your book than no one at all?

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If your novel is not good, and those 30 people cringe when they read it, then no, it's not better. You'll have lost those 30 readers.

What's better is to put that early effort into a box and write something that people want to read.

And if you really, absolutely have to self-publish your first widely-rejected novel, you should open a livejournal account and post it there bit by bit. You'll get honest feedback from strangers and you won't be trading on your family ties to convince people to buy your work.

DED said:

Is it not better that 30 people read your book than no one at all?

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Is this a hobby or is this a career?

That's the question you need to ask.

I used to help POD/self published authors try to market and pubilcize their books -- fiction, non-fciton, poetry, medical, biography -- name it and, no matter how creative or aggressive we were, it never resulted in what would be considered satisfactory sales. We'd bang our heads against the wall daily . . . that didn't work either. Each one of these people believed that had the "next big thing" and couldn't understand WHY bookstores showed little interest in them and why it was so difficult just to get a review. Despite reading all of the advice, they still preferred to learn it the hard way.

DED said:

I disagree. Agents are just people and people make mistakes. If you can't write a query letter that snags their attention is it because your novel is crap or just that you don't know how to sell your novel. Beatrix Potter's "A Tale of Peter Rabbit" was self-published as was the perennial "The Elements of Style". Yes, the one written by Strunk & White.

And what about all the consolidation that went on in the publishing industry? There's less opportunity for writers to get published via traditional methods.

What is so wrong about a person wanting to self-finance the publication of their book? If they go into the process with their eyes open, and aren't under any delusions that they won't sell many copies, what's so wrong with that? Is it not better that 30 people read your book than no one at all?

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Never before in history has it been as easy for first time writers to sell a novel. Consolidation didn't lessen demand, it increased it. What's difficult is staying published after you sell a novel. There aren't too few novels being published, there are too many, and by a wide margin. Publishers buy first novels, throw them at the bestseller lists, and hope one or two or three stick.
The publishing world would be better by far if the novel of published novel could be reduced but at least ten percent.

If you can sell a novel, odds are very high that it is because it's a poorly written novel. Writers always look for excuses, but the number one reason novels do not sell is purely and simply because they just are not any good.

If you can't write a query letter that will grab an agent's attention, then it's a heck of a lot easier, faster, and cheaper to learn how to write one that will than it is to self-publish and spend the next two years trying to sell one hundred copies of a novel no one wants. There's no excuse for someone who calls himself a writer to keep writing bad query letters.

And if thirty copies is your goal, just go down to the local print shop and have thirty copies of your manuscript printed off, then pass it out to the first thirty people you see. It'll save everyone, including you, time, trouble, and money.

If you really want to be a writer, and you write a novel that simply won't sell, then self-publishing it does not make you a writer, and can almost guarantee you never will be one. The vast majority of first novels, and second novels, are bad, and shouldn't be published anywhere by anyone, traditionally or self.

Shelve the novel and write another one that might be good enough to sell, and to read. And if the query letter really is the problem, then learn how to write a better one. All of writing is a learning experience, and darned few people get anything right with a first effort, whether it's a novel or a query letter.

I read self published books all the time, and some are from B&M bookstores.


I have ordered some from Amazon, one from IUniverse and one from LULU.com. But I also purchased one from a bookstore stock (New Orleans bookstore out of business) last week.



The last book I am refererring to, was formatted wrong, and the letters were so small it was almost impossible to read. The story was interesting, but not written well. There weren't any mispelled words, but the book should have been professionally edited. Alot of crap could have been removed. But, in the end, I enjoyed reading the book.


And the last book I am referring to, has at least 30 used copies for sale on Amazon. So, she must have sold at least that. It is a LULU.com book, so her investment was at least returned.


Beyond that, the author didn't have the craft of writing down. She needed to spend some time learning how to edit.

Silverhand said:

OK...I got an answer to "Will bookstores purchase POD books." The answer was a pretty hearty no from Maestro. So, I called up 5 stores in my area....and did a lil research. Powells was willing to take any POD novel with an ISBN #, cleanly edited, decent artwork, and well written. They expected me to provide them a novel before they said "yes" or "no". The store manager was nice enough to provide me some figures. They house about 10 new novels from Self-Published and POD authors per month. They retain around 1-2 that they then purchase routinely from. The ones they keep past the initial month all sell somewhere between 500-3000 copies in their stores located in Oregon, Washington, and N. California (Though the manager said they own stores not abiding with their names.)

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Okay, I think you and maestro are talking about two different things here. First, he was saying that bookstores won't SHELVE POD books. They won't purchase them from the publisher. Pretty much any bookstore will take consignment directly from the author. So you would have to contact every store in your region and sign a different agreement with each one, provide the books and pick them up if they don't sell. That's not shelving--at least through the normal channels. I have my small press consigned at several local chains, even though my mass market books are ordered from the publisher. Also, when the bookstore says they're selling between 500-3000 copies, that's more than likely not the number sold PER TITLE. It's probably gross for ALL POD authors (and who knows how many there are.)

Silverhand said:

As for the other 2 large stores in my region: Borders and Barnes and Nobles, each manager was willing to take, not buy a single novel. One said there wasnt much chance at ever being picked up. However, she did say that because I resided less then a mile away she would at least give it a read and go from there. The manager for the other, a Borders, which is 3 miles away from my house, said he would be interested in 1-2 copies just because I was local. I know that isnt much...and not much of a success...but I HAD to prove to myself that no one would take novels...at all...if I self-published.

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Again, many bookstores will take them if they have room. But only from you, as the author. They still won't order from the company, which is how bookstores do business on a normal basis.

Silverhand said:

Anyways, I just thought I would share my research. Really...all the advice here is that POD is hopeless...and it sucks...and you will fail...because it most likely sucks. Well that may be true. I am not there yet...and I realize my work might suck. Then again...it may not...and IF I choose to go this route...I have at least a 1% chance of being very successful. Something about being the VP of Sales for my company WILL NOT let me hear that this cannot be done. hehe...my pride...gotta hate it.

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"Hopeless" is relative. What are your goals for publishing your book? Do you want to buy a tank of gas every month with the money earned? Or do you want to make your house payment, car payment, electric bill, food, and put clothing on you and your family each and every month? That's what major publishers help with. They've got the distribution and the clout to send out tens of THOUSANDS of copies of your book, increasing the likelihood that you can make a living.

But you get to do whatever you choose. Just go into it with your eyes open and don't expect the impossible.

DED said:

Beatrix Potter's "A Tale of Peter Rabbit" was self-published as was the perennial "The Elements of Style". Yes, the one written by Strunk & White.

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Strunk's version was. The Strunk & White version, however, was not. A commercial publisher had E.B. White edit Strunk's original class material and revise the original to make it suitable for publication.

Silverhand said:

I am not to this point yet, but I imagine that if it comes down to shelving my novel completely or POD I will take the latter.

My question to the authorities is how much venture capital will I need if I am going to go the Self Publishing route?

I was thinking around $2k-$5k.

And, has anyone heard any solid strategies to make a self-published book successful? Obviously, I understand if it is good it will sell itself, but I am talking about marketing. How much should a smart POD author buy for a first run? What percentage of their venture capital should be invested into marketing? Are there any strategies for creating business with the large bookstores? Should I concentrate on direct sales or should I go to bookstores? etc etc

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Here's my experience:

In 2001 after a couple of years immersed in writing short stories, I decided to self-publish. I read widely about the options. POD was just ramping up then, but it had a bad rep; maybe it still does, I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, I decided, after reading Dan Poynter's "The Self-Publishing Manual" to do the job myself. My reasons? I was more than a writer with faith in my short stories; I was an experienced salesman with a going wholesale business and my own web server. I had all the fulfillment stuff there--UPS, FedEx, mails, phones, fax, office stuff. I also had a customer base of about 300 resellers who I did some repeat business with. In other words, I had a network, even though it wasn't literary in nature. Still, some of those folks read fiction.

I spent about 3400. Bought a piece of artwork from my famous watercolor artist sister, hired a copy editor to go over the text, hired a printer, hired a graphic designer to layout the covers, get the ISBN, etc. My job besides the writing? To sell books. (the books, btw, came out great--beyond my expectations, except, you know, a few errors got through, mostly formatting) I had TOTAL control. The plus? I'd keep ALL proceeds from sales--my royalties were 100%. I calculated a sale price and a break even point--that is, how many I'd need to sell to break even, which was estimated at 178 copies sold.

Now, short story collections aren't the easiest to sell. Forget agents--they won't touch you unless you're Steven King. Forget direct to publishers.

Over the next two years I sold about 220 copies, about 10% of them at discount prices in quantity. I sold to customers, neighbors, friends and direct online to my website. I also mailed out free copies to about 100 independent bookstores across the country. I've received tons of compliments on the cover and the stories.

Bookstores? Mostly I struck out. A few in some local stores. I even "salted" a few copies in some bigger stores. Meaning, I walked in with a couple copies and left them on the new fiction tables. ha. Well, that was mostly for fun.

Since breaking even, I mostly give the books as gifts, although I sold a dozen at my garage sale last summer. I closed my business a year later so no longer have the great network.

Would I do it again? Perhaps. But I'd prefer to do novels and try for an agent/publisher. Selling is hard work. I'm not sorry I did one, but it's swimming upstream with fiction especially. Amazon maybe sold 2 copies in all that time.
Tree House Tales by DH Henry (my old pen name).

Sadly, no. Books, no matter how good, don't sell themselves. But the self-publishing thing has a long and storied tradition in American literature. POD? For me there would have been less motivation to sell because there would have been no inventory staring at me. And, I doubt seriously that the quality of the product would have been as high as what I was able to do.

Dave

MikeAngel said:

Here's my experience:

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Can I ask how many hours you spent in addition to that $3,400?

Obviously, you had a sales infrastructure in place already. How much more would you have spent if you didn't have that?

Jamesaritchie said:

The publishing world would be better by far if the novel of published novel could be reduced but at least ten percent.

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Writing one full of sentences like this probably will help reach that goal.

caw.

Silverhand: For a slightly different perspecitve, if I may, there is a margin of misinformation regarding POD as perceived by the public - simplified.

One can utilize the purported expertise of the various POD companies out there, and there ARE many. What this does is place the digital novel, complete with cover art and all, on the company's computer and allows for a bookstore such as B&N to print/buy the particular novel/book at a single copy, or in multiples.

I use primarily Trafford.com when I POD. This gives me the best deal in my opinion which can be found - and I have developed a lasting friendship with several of their people out of respect for their expertise. This is not a 'plug' for them in any way, only a statement of fact from my own experience.

I walk into Hastings, for instance, and tell them I want a copy of Joe Blow's THE MINNOW NET. The clerk looks it up on the computer, might ask for information, such as ISBN number, publishing company, etc. and the book can be printed out in the back room or they can order it from the company. Basically, that's all there is to it.

Now, there is becoming a clear-cut big difference between the 'vanity press' and PODs as time marches on. Some of the POD companies have become very professional and pretty equal to mainstream publishers insofar as getting the marketing done for sales. Once again I will use Cory Doctorow (Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom) as an example. He beat all the odds with his self-publishing campaign online at his website.

As mentioned by others, it depends upon what you are desiring as your standard of author success. I have read mainstream authors who were hyped to the max, only to almost throw the book in the garbage in disgust at the typos, lack of storyline, pitiful character building - and so on. Mainstream does not guarantee a well written, well edited work of print by any means.

Due to the World Wide Web the written word is being published in so many ways as never imagined before. Not all of it is good, and not all of it is bad - usually it resides somewhere in between. Mainstream published authors and hopefuls still poo-pooh the concept of POD or self-publishing as a marketing factor for recognition, but that is also changing on a daily basis. More and more awards are being given to online published works, to POD works, even to blogs. And blogs are the next evolution, already becoming vlogs.

Throughout the world people are realizing that they might have something to say which someone else could be interested in reading - and isn't that what writing is all about in the final analysis. Whether it is a columnist for a magazine or newspaper, a movie or book reviewer, a struggling first time novelist breaking into the industry, even Dear Abby, the 'success' is determined by the acceptance volume of readers, sometimes resulting in a monetary reward and sometimes in nothing more than a, "Gosh, I loved your story!" Advertising payments from a popular website can add up to some very nice monetary amounts.

Again, it depends upon what level each writer desires and the perserverance to get there at all costs. I, myself, have and do walk both sides of the street regarding POD and mainstream - and I enjoy doing so with the resultant factors from each side. I will never belittle someone who felt it feasible (for whatever personal reason) to contract with a POD instead of repeatedly seeking an agent and striving for mainstream, just as I would never belittle anyone doing the opposite.

Or, consider a print run fron someone in your area, usually at a reduced price for run of around one to three thousand.

There is so much more to cover about this, but I have taken up too much space with it for now. Thanks - and go for it!

I don't care how good the mousetrap is - you still have to let the mice know it is there and make them want to enter.

blacbird said:

Writing one full of sentences like this probably will help reach that goal.

caw.

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That's for sure. Never, ever try to post on a forum at the same time you're trying to figure out why your DSL isn't wroking right. To save horrible sentences, and to keep your DSL working properly, never, ever place a coil of DSL cable on top of a surge protectector that has seven other pieces of equipment plugged into it.

For some silly reason, DSL does not work well under such conditions.