Am I crazy, or is this major head-hopping here???

Cheryll · Apr 24, 2006

I would very much like to discuss the numerous POV swings Nora Roberts has taken here in the first chapter of her novel Birthright. Here's the link to Amazon's excerpt from the book (you may have to copy and paste):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0399149848/ref=sib_dp_top_ex/104-5878460-3274318?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S00L#reader-link

I've never read Nora Roberts before, although I've certainly heard of her. A friend recently gave me this book and I started reading it today.

I'm confused over how she gets away with the head-hopping. I count no less than FOUR separate POV's in the first 15 pages alone:

1) Starts out with Billy Younger's POV at the construction site.

2) POV then switches to Dolan on page 8.

3) POV then switches to Lana on page 9 (...she was dead sure she was about to wipe that patronizing...)

4) Then, after Lana leaves Dolan's office, she goes into a bookstore and the POV changes yet again to Roger, the owner (...he often wondered if that was part of the reason...)

I'm not criticizing, just wondering. I know the woman has sold about a gazillion books, so she must be doing something right. And to be honest, if I wasn't looking for POV changes as closely as I do now, I probably wouldn't have noticed what she did. Somehow, it seems to work here. But yet, all I ever hear is NOT to do this - one POV per person per scene. And if you change POV, start a new chapter or scene.

**scratches head**

Cheryll

Wesley Smith · Apr 24, 2006

When you sell as many books as Nora Roberts, they give you a lot more leeway to tell your story.

veinglory · Apr 24, 2006

I think the 'rules' are meant to help you become a best seller but they don't determine what is one. I find that non-writer readers are far less bothered by head hopping than those who have been taught it is a literary 'evil'

.

There are two things that might be going on, on is that a good writer can break all the rules they want and still make it work, the other is that a famous writer tends to get even a relatively mediocre work published (or less vigorously edited). I don't read this author so I couldn't say which is more true here.

aadams73 · Apr 24, 2006

Nora is a major head-hopper, but she manages to do it well. And you can get away with practically anything so long as you do it well.

Cheryll · Apr 24, 2006

Wesley Smith said:
When you sell as many books as Nora Roberts, they give you a lot more leeway to tell your story.

LOL. I knew someone was going to say that.

Question: How about when she first started out? I would think that any agent/editor would have seen the head-hopping right away.

Or maybe she hasn't always done this (??) Maybe those who have read her earlier work could chime in here.

Is it possible that Ms. Roberts' storytelling ability is so compelling it negates some of the "rules"?

Hmmmmm...

Cheryll

veinglory · Apr 24, 2006

I ntice head hopping across a few genres including thrillers, sagas and some types of romance. I think POV is simply used less rigidly in some of these sub-genres. I probably wouldn't notice it at all if I hadn't been 'trained to' -- ditto with passive voice and a few other bug bears.

Susan Gable · Apr 24, 2006

Cheryll said:
LOL. I knew someone was going to say that.

Question: How about when she first started out? I would think that any agent/editor would have seen the head-hopping right away.

Or maybe she hasn't always done this (??) Maybe those who have read her earlier work could chime in here.

Is it possible that Ms. Roberts' storytelling ability is so compelling it negates some of the "rules"?

Hmmmmm...

Cheryll

When Nora started out, head-hopping WAS the norm. Omniscent POV where you told certain things (called author intrusion these days) and switched POV at will, sometimes in the same sentence, was much more common then. So, basically, she's continuing how she started out.

Actually, she's cleaned up her POV a lot lately. <G> I heard her speak at a conference where she said it was ONLY other writers who ever gave her grief about POV. No reader had ever taken her to task for it.

And yes, great story-telling ability (which Miss Nora has, IMHO) overrules some of the finer details. Craft is important, don't get me wrong, but story/characters are even more important. The most perfectly crafted piece can be flat and lifeless. Spark catches attention far more than dull but perfectly crafted.

Susan G.

kristie911 · Apr 24, 2006

I read Nora Roberts and love her books. In all honesty, I never really noticed her head hopping because she tells such great stories. Or maybe it's because I'm a reader first and a writer second...I have no problem getting into a story and I rarely notice things like that...if it's an intriguing story. The only time I notice things like head hopping or POV changes is if I'm specifically looking for them. Otherwise...doesn't bother me a bit. Consequently, when I'm writing, I have to be very, very careful about certain things like POV...I just don't notice.

cwfgal · Apr 24, 2006

Susan Gable said:
Actually, she's cleaned up her POV a lot lately. <G> I heard her speak at a conference where she said it was ONLY other writers who ever gave her grief about POV. No reader had ever taken her to task for it.

I've heard this before and find it amusing since almost all writers are also readers. It's the writing readers who know and understand what POV is and how it's supposed to work and would therefore voice this complaint. The non writing readers may notice the head hopping and be bothered by it but not know exactly what to call it. Those are the readers who simply don't read her again.

That said, Susan is right that this head-hopping style of writing was more prevalent and accepted back when Nora first started. These days it's not Nora's writing that sells so much as her name. But she got to that point by producing solid, engaging tales that could overcome her faults. It's a valuable lesson since ever writer has a fault or two to deal with.

Beth

Saundra Julian · Apr 24, 2006

When you can top this, you can criticize. Ms Roberts...

Nora Roberts is truly a publishing phenomenon. With well over 75 million copies of her books in print --- including 6 New York Times bestsellers in 1997 alone. Roberts reached new heights, both on bestseller lists and in her incomparable talent for creating compelling, passionate page-turners when three of her books placed one, two and three in the top five bestsellers for 1997.

Susan Gable · Apr 24, 2006

cwfgal said:
These days it's not Nora's writing that sells so much as her name.

Nora Roberts is actually a "brand name." A publicist doing a workshop I attended pointed out that Nora's new books no longer have blurbs on the back -- just a picture of Ms. Roberts. She doesn't need a blurb, because she sells on the strength of her name. (That said, you will find all sorts of stuff on the inside, including a dear reader letter and a blurb. But not on the back cover. Nope. The back cover has her picture.)

Susan G.

Sheryl Nantus · Apr 24, 2006

if they put my picture on the back of my book, it'd have to be a fold-out.

maestrowork · Apr 24, 2006

She's a brand, so she could pretty much do anything and her fans will follow. She might not get new fans, but she has enough of a fan base to last her a life time.

It's not to say new writers should follow her way of writing. Someone said that when she started (how many years ago... must have been at least 20 years) head-hopping was the norm. Not just omniscient, but actual head-hopping. But it's different today, at least for new writers, especially in this very competitive field.

Head-hopping is not like bad grammar or spelling errors -- they're style issues. We all know why "head-hopping" can drive a reader crazy... BUT! If Ms. Roberts' fans don't mind, who are we to say she's not right? Her fans continue to buy her books, and they pass those books off to their children... that's what a brand is. Once you're hooked on Coke, you don't easily switch.

NicoleJLeBoeuf · Apr 24, 2006

Saundra Julian said:
When you can top this, you can criticize. Ms Roberts...

Not that one would need to top this merely to discuss Ms. Roberts, right?

reph · Apr 24, 2006

The summary so far: Nora Roberts gets by with headhopping because she's such a great storyteller.

I think we have more to gain by looking at what she does right than at what she does wrong. So how does she tell a story?

Susan Gable · Apr 24, 2006

reph said:
The summary so far: Nora Roberts gets by with headhopping because she's such a great storyteller.

I think we have more to gain by looking at what she does right than at what she does wrong. So how does she tell a story?

Reph, that's a fabulous question. For me, there's just something about her characters. And there's just magic (sometimes literally as she sometimes does paranormals <G>) in her stories. Her Key Trilogy reminded me, for a reason I probably can't pinpoint for you, that what we do is MAGIC. The act of telling a story has a magic unto itself. She manages to weave that into most of what she does.

Wow. That sounds kinda weird. <G> But :Shrug:

, that's how I feel about it. <G>

I will confess that I once stumbled across one of her very early category romances, and had a YES! <pumping fist in air> moment when I discovered that, yes, she's grown as a writer, so maybe there was some hope for me.

Susan G.

kristie911 · Apr 24, 2006

She just has a way (no I can't explain it) of sucking you into a story. For all the books she's written (I couldn't even guess the number) every character is different. I don't know how she does it...I can't even think of a time when I've been reading one of her books and thought, "Hmmm, this guy reminds me of <fill in another of her characters here>" and for an author that has created so many characters, that's amazing. Every storyline is different from every other storyline she's ever written...

I think we could all take a lesson from her...several, in fact. You may not like her books but you can't dispute what she's created.

Cheryll · Apr 24, 2006

Please allow me to clarify: I hope I didn't come across here as critical of Ms. Roberts. That wasn't my intent. We're all in the same boat, doing the best we can to pour our art onto the page. The frequent POV changes stood out to me and I posed a question concerning it because POV is something I continue to struggle with.

I'm more than a few chapters into Birthright and I must say she appears to be a solid storyteller. It flows well, her characters are interesting, and the storyline is compelling. I see why she has such a large fanbase. And the sheer volume of her published work is staggering!

It's interesting to read what others have posted about styles and POV and how they've changed over the years. I think agents and editors today lean more towards omniscient POV as the odd duck and not the norm.

Cheryll

Jamesaritchie · Apr 24, 2006

Nora Roberts is a notorious head-hopper, and she has been called to task for it by numerous critcis. She says only other writers complain, but I perosnally know two non-writers who have complained to her about it. And it bothered me even more before I was a writer than it does now. I also remember her saying she tried hard not to head-hop, but couldn't manage it.

This is a case of doing everything else so well most readers overlook the head-hopping. But as well as she does do everything else, the head-hopping still takes away from the writer she could be and should be. I read a great deal of what she writes, and enjoy a lot of it, but the head-hopping is distracting, often confusing, and an irritant.

But like everything else, head-hopping is only one aspect of writing, though it's like sand under your eyelid when it's done as often as Roberts does it, and if you do everything else well enough, the head-hopping will be overlooked, and head-hopping or not, Nora Roberts does everything else extremely well.

I don't want to make anyone mad with this, but I would not try her head-hopping tactics outside of the romance genre, no matter how well you do everything else.

Susan Gable · Apr 24, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
I don't want to make anyone mad with this, but I would not try her head-hopping tactics outside of the romance genre, no matter how well you do everything else.

I wouldn't try it IN the romance genre. As many of us have pointed out, Nora can do what Nora wants. She could write a green Martian hero in a non-paranormal, and the eds would buy it.

That doesn't mean that romance would allow any new author to do it.

Also, as I've pointed out in numerous other threads on this board, there IS a difference between a controled POV-switch - which I DO in the romance genre - and head-hopping.

And James, I'm really curious about readers who aren't writers who know and understand POV. Seems sort of odd to me that they'd be able to ID that. Heck, I had enough trouble getting the hang of it once I'd started studying craft, and I know numerous other newbies who also wrestled with it.

Susan G.

Glenda · Apr 25, 2006

Ok, I'm going to have to read one of her books. Because now I'm thinking I have to worry about POV, (head hopping), as well as the horror of passive voice. :rant:

Who ever said it was easy to write a book, anybody can do it, didn't know what she was talking about. Oh I know, it was my sister-in-law.

AnneMarble · Apr 25, 2006

maestrowork said:
It's not to say new writers should follow her way of writing. Someone said that when she started (how many years ago... must have been at least 20 years) head-hopping was the norm. Not just omniscient, but actual head-hopping. But it's different today, at least for new writers, especially in this very competitive field.

The sad thing is that so many new authors are so worried about head-hopping that they end up committing other stylistic problems to avoid it. I once read a series novel that had no head-hopping at all, but lots of little scenes that jerked me back and forth between the hero and heroine. (A Patty Salier novel, I don't remember which one.) I hate head-hopping, but I would have preferred the head-hopping.

Some authors have argued that workshops, contests, books on writing, etc. have warned so many aspiring authors against head-hopping and the like that they've destroyed the voices of many authors. I don't know if I'd go that far, but I'd agree that if you follow the rules too closely without knowing why they are the rules, you can end up with a stylistic mess.

maestrowork said:
Head-hopping is not like bad grammar or spelling errors -- they're style issues. We all know why "head-hopping" can drive a reader crazy... BUT! If Ms. Roberts' fans don't mind, who are we to say she's not right? Her fans continue to buy her books, and they pass those books off to their children... that's what a brand is. Once you're hooked on Coke, you don't easily switch.

Heck, I've seen some readers admit that they prefer the head-hopping. They don't want to have to "guess" what the hero is thinking during an important scene based on his body language, etc. And even readers who hate head-hopping often say they want it during love scenes because it's so important to know what both characters are thinking then.

Tracy · Apr 25, 2006

Head Hopping

I was a reader long before I was ever a writer, and I always HATED head-hopping. It prevented me from investing in any one character, I felt as if I was hovering above the scene rather than being engaged with it, if you see what I mean.

I've never read Nora Roberts either - will now, I think, it sounds like it would be worthwhile for the characters and the story-telling alone.

Susan Gable · Apr 25, 2006

Tracy said:
I was a reader long before I was ever a writer, and I always HATED head-hopping. It prevented me from investing in any one character, I felt as if I was hovering above the scene rather than being engaged with it, if you see what I mean.

I've never read Nora Roberts either - will now, I think, it sounds like it would be worthwhile for the characters and the story-telling alone.

She's got two very distinct writing personas, Tracy. If you like something a little different, read her J.D. Robb books - they're futuristic mysteries with a truly compelling cast of main characters. I adore her protagonist, Lt. Eve Dallas.

She writes a wide variety of stuff as Nora Roberts, too, from family drama, to paranormal, to suspense. Just watch the copyright dates -- her old (very old) stuff gets rereleased on a frequent basis. (But, that's a whole 'nother debate, isn't it? <G>)

Susan G.

Josie · Apr 25, 2006

i'm here to say that Nora Roberts is an amazing story teller.!!!!

Over the years I've read a lot of her stories, sometimes with gaps of at least a year before I read another one. When I was strictly a reader I never noticed the head hopping, and now that I'm a reader and writer, I notice the head hopping at first, and then relax and enjoy her story.

Right now I'm reading "Honest Illusion" and recommend it...because it's a good book for the story she tells, the characters and her ominiscent point of view.

Perhaps one day some of us will follow in her footsteps. Can't knock her. Just enjoy her stories...some more than others.

She's quite a legend.

Am I crazy, or is this major head-hopping here???

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