Pushing the Genre!!!

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triceretops

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Pushing the genre!!!
In my past 25 years I've amassed over 400 rejections, so I'm kind of immune to them. I did receive one from Anne Groell of Bantam Dell that kind of threw me just recently. I got A+ marks on every element of my SF novel Planet Janitor, except for one that nixed the deal:

I didn't quite push the genre enough.

Now in my 25 years, and on this board mentioned hundreds of times, I've always been under the assumtion that there's nothing new under the sun, and if you can heave a fresh bucket of paint on an old idea, and come up with something that is unique, twisty, turny, and above all groundbreaking, then you've got a chance at the brass ring. I took a Robinson Crusoe survival plot (on a hostile planet), and tweaked the hell out of it, and it didn't show through for some reason. (This is only one measly rejection on the book, thus far--no panic intended)

My question is relevant to just about any genre, so I'll ask you--How do YOU push your genre and what do you think that means, above and beyond anything we've learned here?

Tri
 

Birol

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That's a good question right now.
That's the problem, Chris, I don't think I do. I think my manuscript is very traditional, except.... I do think I tend to look past the "good guys" vs. "bad guys" mindset.

Only time will tell, I suppose.
 
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triceretops

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Heck, Birol...I take it a step further, thinking that I'm archaic, or some type of authentic Golden Age science fiction writer from the 40s. At least that's how it made me feel--like I'd written a Plan Nine From Outer Space piece of hack or something. It's certainly not that bad, but yes, I guess it WAS a little traditional, but I certainly twisted that pup via new science.

I have five more fulls with the majors,(including a movie studio) and I'm gonna kick back and see if this is a new rule, or trend and if this rears its head again. Heck, it could have been my technology base being out of sequence. Unfortunately I haven't received the full report on it.

Another spec writer wrote and told me that he's getting "Nothing new here" type comments on his manuscript. I'm wondering if that translates to: "You didn't push the genre."

Push, push, push. Hell, baby, I'll smash and obliterate the genre if you want. But would somebody please tell me how to give it a push, or even a gentle nudge. LOL.

Tri.
 

Jamesaritchie

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triceretops said:
Heck, Birol...I take it a step further, thinking that I'm archaic, or some type of authentic Golden Age science fiction writer from the 40s. At least that's how it made me feel--like I'd written a Plan Nine From Outer Space piece of hack or something. It's certainly not that bad, but yes, I guess it WAS a little traditional, but I certainly twisted that pup via new science.

I have five more fulls with the majors,(including a movie studio) and I'm gonna kick back and see if this is a new rule, or trend and if this rears its head again. Heck, it could have been my technology base being out of sequence. Unfortunately I haven't received the full report on it.

Another spec writer wrote and told me that he's getting "Nothing new here" type comments on his manuscript. I'm wondering if that translates to: "You didn't push the genre."

Push, push, push. Hell, baby, I'll smash and obliterate the genre if you want. But would somebody please tell me how to give it a push, or even a gentle nudge. LOL.

Tri.



I don't know if this is relevant, but I did receive a rejection for amn SF short story because, while my story was up on science, it did not show how "advanced science would affect people in new ways."

If I read the rejection correctly, it meant the sicence was fine, but that I needed to show a new way this new science would affect people.
 

Marcusthefish

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Written SF is like a long, slow conversation. Ideas ("tropes") are introduced, grab readers' and writers' imaginations, and are picked up and expanded on and changed by other writers.

Not "pushing the genre" might mean that you're not contributing to the conversation because your tropes are old, or that you've got the currently fashionable tropes, but your take on them isn't fresh enough.

The need to push the genre makes SF that much harder to write and get published, I think. In addition to writing a gripping story, you've got to contribute to the conversation.

MTF
 

MadScientistMatt

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If it's any consolation, though, books of traditional space opera that use science that was known to be bogus when they were published still make it into print. Not all publishers require you to come up with new technological ideas if your story is entertaining enough.
 

Julie Worth

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triceretops said:
How do YOU push your genre and what do you think that means, above and beyond anything we've learned here?

Your problem is that your ms is too comprehensible. Pushing the genre in this case is a purely mechanical process. Randomly rearrange your chapters until it makes no sense at all, then resubmit.

 

triceretops

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Interesting comments from all. HConn nails it with one sentence, as usual. Where's the trick--where's the novelty--where's the candy store? I think pushing the genre might be putting a bananna peel under the reader's foot, causing a little unexpected accident or trauma, eh? A twist ending and fresh re-work is not enough. Maybe you have to leave them head scratching and saying, "Naaaaah...just a minute....that COULDN'T be! No, wait, MAYBE...it could!

Alas, pushing the envelope is dangerous in just about everything we do in life. Herein, it just might be encouraged. I've never liked fence straddling. I have poor balance. It's possible to take something too far and get rejected for that! This reminds me of the "A faint heart never won a fair lady" analogy.

If your concept and ideas are too "out there" you alienate entire reader communities and the appeal goes down. And you know where I heard that from? Not from the editors, who are the lovely rebels, but it came from marketing. Ever wonder why movie scripts are so damn boring and generic? They have to appeal to a mass cross-section audience. Then you have somebody like M. Night Shalaman (sp?), who blows those doors off and PUSHES THE GENRE.
Tri
 

Jamesaritchie

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SF

It seems to me there are two distinct types of SF. The gimmick stories strictly about the science, for which there is a respectable audience, and the stories that aren't about science at all, but about how science affects people.

Gadgets and gimmicks and novelties aren't going to get you anywhere unless you remember that what really counts is the affect these gadgets and gimmicks and novelties have on real people who have to live with them.

All good fiction is about people, not about mystery, or romance, or science.
 

alaskamatt17

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Jamesaritchie said:
All good fiction is about people, not about mystery, or romance, or science.

I disagree. Good fiction can be about androids, aliens, dinosaurs, and dragons, too, among other things.
 

rich

I agree with Jamesartchie. It's not that you produce a good piece within a genre, it's that you produce a good piece that has a universality that rises above mere genre.
 

zornhau

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My theory: pull all the stops out, turn the volume up to 11 and underpin it all with persuasive logic. Do to S&S what Hendrix did to rock and roll.

I've written my novel around iconic, Frank Frazetta-esque scenes, which however, are impeccably supported by the story logic and the characterisation. My mission is to live up to the promise of those early pulp covers.

Ask me next year whether it worked....

In the long term, it's probably worth banging the genres together to see what subgenres emerge, e.g. MilSF, MediSF. I predict Military Sword and Sorcery: http://zornhau.livejournal.com/54053.html
 

veinglory

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My favorite genre books do not so much 'push' the genre as give it a slight tweak or twist. They fulfill the expected cliches for the most part but them turn some aspect of the readers expectations on it's head.

I guess a mild case might be Bujold giving us a short, manic action hero--an extreme one might be the man embattled by vampires in 'I am Legend' (in the last chapter which I will not describe out of respect for those yet to read this classic).
 

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It's all about the characters and the plot with me. The gadgets and gizmos are interesting, but they're not what makes me want to write SF.

My favourite stories are ones that can be transferred between genres and still work. It's a bit like the basic story behind the classic western The Magnificent Seven. If I'm not mistaken, its first incarnation was as a Japanese Samurai movie. Then came the western version, and I'm pretty sure the same fundamental plot inspired the makers of A Bugs Life. To work so well in so many different forms, must say something about the plot and the characters.

One of my novels revolves around a middle-aged woman travelling on her own to a remote planet. To help me write it, I often pictured her a living in the mid nineteenth century, travelling by herself to the interior of Africa. Though it would take a complete re-write to do it, the plot and the characters could be shifted from the SF setting, and put into the 1850's and the story would still work.

So, as far as pushing the boundaries of a genre is concerned, I don't think that should be a major consideration when writing something. Concentrate on the basics (plot and characters), and if they're good the story should carry itself regardless of whether it breaks new ground or not.
 

brokenfingers

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To me this just sounds like an editor's sugar-coated way of saying "cliche" and "same ol', same ol'".

There are certain tropes and conventions utilized in every genre category. But if your story is not really different from the hundreds of others already out there, or that have crossed the editor's desk already that month - the editor probably doesn't see anything inspiring them to represent.

To me, pushing the genre is what writers should do. It just means telling the story a little different than the guy who came before you. Otherwise, why is a reader going to buy your book?

An agent doesn't want a book that's going to disappear into the morass of other books with the same plotlines and conventions. They're all looking for that one book that will stand out: the killer premise, the amazing character, the unbelievable setting, the incredible new world etc.

Of course, it's just my opinion - but I think this is something every writer should try to do. (And I'm not saying anyone here isn't doing it or Tri hasn't done it - only offering up my opinion on what the agent meant.)
 

triceretops

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Interesting points. I agree with the notion that especially characters trump all, and that science is but a mere tool to use to assist them on their journey. My agent made the comment that if all of the science and technology were taken away from my book, the story itself, would stand on its own. And that was because of a dynamic conflict and interaction of the characters, who, in his opinion kept the pages turning. So I thought I'd nailed the most important element. But perhaps my problem lied in the concept/plot itself--in fact, idea.


Captain Zachary Crowe, owner of Planet Janitor, is in love with his busted down Russian ore freighter Shenandoah, and fancies himself an entrepreneur. He’s only been in business for four years, trying to wrangle planetary job assignments that deal with cleaning up the environment and making close solar system jumps to pick up precious ores and space trash. His crew consists of seven less than stellar professionals. Their problem is they’ve destroyed biological ecosystems and habitats through neglect, and incompetence. They’ve had bad press, bad luck, and bad breath…

Until the slick vice president of Orion Industries Real Estate Development hires Planet Janitor for a clandestine operation that entails a 26-light-year trip out to a newly found habitable planet in the Tau Ceti system

Planet Janitor finds out too late that they’ve been suckered into a job that entails disposing of millions of skeletons—a genocidal graveyard. They soon find out what killed this indigenous species and, being ill prepared and unarmed, are caught up in a fever-pitched battle for their lives. They must contend with genetically engineered marsupial lions. These crewmembers, who’ve been failures and outcasts all of their lives, transform into a fighting unit that refuses to go quietly into the night. When it appears that they have vanquished the vicious creatures, they are faced with the arrival of the aliens who created these pet animal soldiers…then the real fight begins.

I think this story combines the best elements of Robert Heinlein’s Starship Troopers, with a breathless fight to the finish, along with the inconceivable measures used to survive on a hostile planet that can be likened to the perils of Robinson Crusoe on Mars. The action is gritty and visual, while the characters discover that heroism is a trait that is best achieved via cooperative teamwork, self-worth, sacrifice and love for each other.

Ok, if this short synopsis had a log line it would probably read "Just another survival story on another planet."

Even though the science is different and it has an unexpected twist ending, the fact remains that if you take all the nuts and bolts out of the story, it is only eight stranded crewmembers fighting for their lives on a hostile world. Perhaps this is the scope that the editor narrowed it down to, and why she passed. Forget about sub-plots or any other elements, I believe that the basic plot has probably been done to death with none too many variations to make it fresh, or come alive.

I will watch for this in the future submissions and see if this might be the case from more than one editor.

Tri
 

Cathy C

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I know this is going to sound like a horribly simplistic answer, but what books have you read from Bantam in the past six months that are from new authors in their line? They've actually got quite a few debut novelists in the Spectra/Pulse imprint. That might be a good starting point to know what books THEY consider "push the genre." :Shrug: Just a thought.
 

sunandshadow

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Of the SF novels I would consider to have 'pushed the genre', they have mostly been more philosophical or psychological/sociological. Did you study your Crusoe's psychology and philosophy while he was busy surviving?
 

triceretops

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Not only did I relay all of his inner turmoil in trying to keep his crew from getting killed and coming together as a fighting unit, with heavy, heavy environmental concerns and anthropolgy, ad nauseum, but the Captain kept a Georgian Sidas (the planet log) ledger to record his own worst scenario fears. (If somebody says Star Trek log, I'll kill em).

Yeah, got that one checked, just fine.

My ship's drive propellant was a nuclear explosion drive (called the Bang Drive) that reached light's end.

The planet was the second orbital rock out from Tau Ceti, with the correct physics and dynamics.

They found a surviving race of herbiverous giants called the Maximus Paddymous, who were peace loving and, and possessed a stone age tech base.

I did have jump or stasis pods like the ones used in the movie Alien. In fact, they were identical.....hmmmm.....?

I dunno...I could go on. I have to puzzle it out.

Tri
 

Lyra Jean

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My story is about a planet inhabited by humans. It's been a couple hundred years and are now suffering from nightmares about Earth. Earth in their culture has fallen into myth and legend. Now the only way to rid themselves of these dreams is to find a way back to Earth.

I don't know if that is pushing the envelope but it's what I'm working on.
 

zornhau

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triceretops said:
Interesting points. I agree with the notion that especially characters trump all, and that science is but a mere tool to use to assist them on their journey. My agent made the comment that if all of the science and technology were taken away from my book, the story itself, would stand on its own. And that was because of a dynamic conflict and interaction of the characters, who, in his opinion kept the pages turning. So I thought I'd nailed the most important element. But perhaps my problem lied in the concept/plot itself--in fact, idea.


Captain Zachary Crowe, owner of Planet Janitor, is in love with his busted down Russian ore freighter Shenandoah, and fancies himself an entrepreneur. He’s only been in business for four years, trying to wrangle planetary job assignments that deal with cleaning up the environment and making close solar system jumps to pick up precious ores and space trash. His crew consists of seven less than stellar professionals. Their problem is they’ve destroyed biological ecosystems and habitats through neglect, and incompetence. They’ve had bad press, bad luck, and bad breath…

Until the slick vice president of Orion Industries Real Estate Development hires Planet Janitor for a clandestine operation that entails a 26-light-year trip out to a newly found habitable planet in the Tau Ceti system

Planet Janitor finds out too late that they’ve been suckered into a job that entails disposing of millions of skeletons—a genocidal graveyard. They soon find out what killed this indigenous species and, being ill prepared and unarmed, are caught up in a fever-pitched battle for their lives. They must contend with genetically engineered marsupial lions. These crewmembers, who’ve been failures and outcasts all of their lives, transform into a fighting unit that refuses to go quietly into the night. When it appears that they have vanquished the vicious creatures, they are faced with the arrival of the aliens who created these pet animal soldiers…then the real fight begins.

I think this story combines the best elements of Robert Heinlein’s Starship Troopers, with a breathless fight to the finish, along with the inconceivable measures used to survive on a hostile planet that can be likened to the perils of Robinson Crusoe on Mars. The action is gritty and visual, while the characters discover that heroism is a trait that is best achieved via cooperative teamwork, self-worth, sacrifice and love for each other.

Ok, if this short synopsis had a log line it would probably read "Just another survival story on another planet."

Even though the science is different and it has an unexpected twist ending, the fact remains that if you take all the nuts and bolts out of the story, it is only eight stranded crewmembers fighting for their lives on a hostile world. Perhaps this is the scope that the editor narrowed it down to, and why she passed. Forget about sub-plots or any other elements, I believe that the basic plot has probably been done to death with none too many variations to make it fresh, or come alive.

I will watch for this in the future submissions and see if this might be the case from more than one editor.

Tri

BAEN
 

Marcusthefish

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triceretops said:
gotcha, Zorn. We're leaving Baen for last. They want exclusive and it takes them a year for review. I can't hang my book up that long. I've since sent in two more books to my agent. Hopefully we'll do a trade-off and get a good rotation going.

Tri

I'm surprised to hear that BAEN takes a year to look at an agented manuscript--that's the same time their submission guidelines give for slush! (http://www.baen.com/submit.htm)

Your book sounds like a lot of fun, by the way.

MTF
 
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