Pacing

Branwyn · Apr 9, 2006

Is there such a thing? I was under the immpression there was. Like good vs bad, up/down, slow/fast. I thought when you write there's a melody, a rhythm, sometimes it's quick and energetic and othertimes it's a waltz.

I received a rejection tonight for my partial, saying my beginning was very action packed and then..."disintegrated rapidly". And is this a fair conclusion to make after only 25 pages? The 26th is action city. How does one keep a novel constantly action packed?

Simon Woodhouse · Apr 9, 2006

I don't think you need to keep it constantly action packed, but if you start with a bang and then there's nothing else for a good few pages, it might seem like that's all there was. Though there's no right or wrong way to start a novel, most generally have a bit of set-up, an introduction to the characters and their everyday lives.

Is the explosive opening there to act as a hook, or is it absolutely vital to the plot? Perhaps you could shuffle it back a bit, and introduce the characters involved first.

reph · Apr 9, 2006

There certainly is such a thing as pacing. Action from page one to page last, with no breathing space, would get tiresome. Maybe the reader found something unsatisfying about your first 25 pages and couldn't articulate it any better than "disintegrated rapidly." Maybe the reader had an offbeat opinion. See what they say where you submit it next.

Branwyn · Apr 9, 2006

I had an agent, who is also an editor, give me some free advice a few months back. Part of the advice was to start the book with the hook/action, so that's what I did. There were other top notch agents that were pleased with the first 30-50 pages and asked to see the full. Then I got the thumbs down, one agent gave me feedback the other's too busy. So I was going over the ms again, trying to see where I got derailed.

I think that was the problem, this agent got disinterested when I got into the characters, and their lives.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 9, 2006

Baywitch said:
Is there such a thing? I was under the immpression there was. Like good vs bad, up/down, slow/fast. I thought when you write there's a melody, a rhythm, sometimes it's quick and energetic and othertimes it's a waltz.

I received a rejection tonight for my partial, saying my beginning was very action packed and then..."disintegrated rapidly". And is this a fair conclusion to make after only 25 pages? The 26th is action city. How does one keep a novel constantly action packed?

Pacing does not mean keeping a novel action-packed. It sounds like you had too much action at the beginning, then dropped it completely. That would be poor pacing. Pacing is not like most songs. It's more like a roller coaster ride with constant ups and down. But the ups can't be too high, until you reach the climax, and the downs can't be too low, and neither can last too long. Pace is ebb and flow

There are several methods for pacing a novel, and the type of story usually determines how the novel should be paced, so it isn't anything close to easy to tell you how a novel should be paced. It depends on the novel.

But it does sound like you overpaced at the beginning, then underpaced shortly thereafter.

Good pace is incredibly important, and poor pace will make anyyone stop reading.

But how does one do it? The best answer I can give to this is to tell you to go grab a dozen bestselling novels in teh genre you're writing, and study the pace of each one carefully.

As for fair, yes, it's fair. Any agent or any editor will continue to read until you give them a reason to stop reading. If you give them a reason to stop on page one, they will not read page two. If you give them a reason to stop on page twenty-five, there's no reason on earth for them to read page twenty-six. If you never give them a reason to stop reading, they'll read right to the end, and still want more.

maestrowork · Apr 9, 2006

Pacing doesn't mean you have to keep up a constant pace, even in thrillers. What the agent meant probably is that you set up too much expectation up front with a lot of action, then you scale way back, giving it an uneven pace. Expectation can be a horrible thing. We know we need to make the first chapter interesting enough to hook the readers; but if you give them too much in the beginning, then the rest of book has to be bigger, more exciting toward the end to meet the expectation. Perhaps what you need to look at is whether you've put too much action in the beginning, and not enough later on.

HourglassMemory · Apr 9, 2006

I think it's better if the feeling grows...so that the "desintegrating thing...works reversed. But I do know what you're trying to do when you write the action packed scene right at the beggining. Maybe it doesn't have to be ACTION PACKED right at the beggining. Look at Harry Potter....it starts in a summer day...and then he's figihting trolls.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 9, 2006

HourglassMemory said:
I think it's better if the feeling grows...so that the "desintegrating thing...works reversed. But I do know what you're trying to do when you write the action packed scene right at the beggining. Maybe it doesn't have to be ACTION PACKED right at the beggining. Look at Harry Potter....it starts in a summer day...and then he's figihting trolls.

Yes, I think, for most novels, the right pacing means a slow climb toward the climax, with occasional bumps in the action along the way. Generaly speaking, even when a novel starts with action, the overall pace should be a gradual growth toward climax.

Branwyn · Apr 9, 2006

Help

I didn't really think it was all that 'action packed'. It starts with the antagonist doing some fancy spellwork...it does get a bit intense...but not wildly so.

Then the protagonist is introduced and her talents for magic are delved into.
I guess I'm a bit partial, I didn't think it got *snore* boring.

If I post tomorrow on the share board, perhaps I could get some feedback?
I'd appreciate it. Thanks...

cwfgal · Apr 9, 2006

I'd be wary of making any changes based on the feedback of one person, unless your gut tells you they may be onto something. Or if others agree with this agent's assessment, then you might need to reevaluate. It could be she just didn't like your style or pacing and others might think it's fine. If you had requests for the full before with the same opening, I'd keep trying. If your gut tells you this agent may have a point, then rework those first 25 pages a bit.

Beth

omega12596 · Apr 9, 2006

Good advice, Beth. Baywitch, if you're getting a lot of response like that, then yes, rework. Otherwise, just make sure those first 25 are as tight as can be and stand by them.

Branwyn · Apr 10, 2006

Thanks everyone.

My gut tells me it's good, but then when you get the rejections you start to wonder and second guess yourself. It's awful, the doubt that creeps in.

rchastain · Apr 10, 2006

Someone—I think it was Donald Maas—said there should be conflict on every page, that conflict grips the reader. I find this advice useful for maintaining pace. Of course not all conflict is expressed in action—it can also be shown in dialogue or the physical situation.

RC

maestrowork · Apr 10, 2006

rchastain said:
Someone—I think it was Donald Maas—said there should be conflict on every page, that conflict grips the reader.

I know Maas is a super agent and all, but I can't agree with that statement. Conflict is good, but not necessarily on every page. There's such a thing called "too much of a good thing." If you need to slow things down and let the characters smell some roses and make some love, go for it. Pacing comes into play when you must move on. Sometimes pacing can be too fast if you keep going and don't let your characters (and your readers) stop. It can be too slow if you go on for pages with no conflicts or action.

A writer should know how to pace the particular story based on plot, characterization, and tone. That's when the art comes in.

zornhau · Apr 10, 2006

Smelling the roses is boring, unless it at least illuminates a conflict, e.g. protag smells roses and vows this will be her last battle.

I sometimes see conflict created by juxtaposition with other less olfactory scenes.

Scene 1: Doom Warriors debark from wombat-prowed longship.

Scene 2: The Purple Princess smells the roses and contemplates how very nice her life is.

maestrowork · Apr 10, 2006

Smelling the roses is not boring, unless the readers has ADD, or unless the smelling of the roses go on for a few pages. The idea of pace is momentum, not necessarily conflict. I can point out plenty of literary work -- best-selling or otherwise -- that doesn't have conflict on every page. Every chapter, yes. Every scene, probably. But not every page.

reph · Apr 10, 2006

zornhau said:
I sometimes see conflict created by juxtaposition with other less olfactory scenes.
Scene 1: Doom Warriors debark from wombat-prowed longship.

Scene 2: The Purple Princess smells the roses and contemplates how very nice her life is.

This happens a lot in opera. The word "suspense" applies here as well as "conflict."

NeuroFizz · Apr 10, 2006

rchastain said:
Someone—I think it was Donald Maas—said there should be conflict on every page, that conflict grips the reader. I find this advice useful for maintaining pace. Of course not all conflict is expressed in action—it can also be shown in dialogue or the physical situation.

RC

Even things that feel really, really good aren't things I'd like to do for hours on end. In a story, good friction becomes sandpaper if it isn't brought in smooth waves. This, of course, depends upon the genre, but even in the most action packed genre, there should be some tidal flow, some time to give the characters sufficient emotional depth, and space devoted to constructing a realistic setting (even if it is totally invented).

Jamesaritchie · Apr 10, 2006

pacing

Baywitch said:
I didn't really think it was all that 'action packed'. It starts with the antagonist doing some fancy spellwork...it does get a bit intense...but not wildly so.

Then the protagonist is introduced and her talents for magic are delved into.
I guess I'm a bit partial, I didn't think it got *snore* boring.

If I post tomorrow on the share board, perhaps I could get some feedback?
I'd appreciate it. Thanks...

It sounds a little bit like the old "flashback" problem where you start wit action, and then backtrack to introdue why and what the action was about. I'm not saying you're using a flashback too early, only that it sounds like the same type of pacing problem..

I'd go through the thing again, and if you don't think the agent was right, and they are wrong at times, then send it out again. Send it out two or three or four more times, and see whatkind of feedback you get from other agents.

Branwyn · Apr 10, 2006

The scene is actually happening in sequence, it just happens to open with the spell scene. I ditched the prologue.
The MC then has a dream about the spell caster and 'sees' what he's planning but doesn't quite have all the pieces.

I love Anne Rice-- but she can get really caught up in smelling those roses, the perfume, the texture, the colors, where they're growing, how long they've been there...for pages. *sigh* But, she's Anne Rice.

You gotta have a hook!!! That's what they say, over and over. You have approximately 'the first five pages?' I got 'em hooked but eventually I have to give some drag on the line.

brokenfingers · Apr 10, 2006

maestrowork said:
I know Maas is a super agent and all, but I can't agree with that statement. Conflict is good, but not necessarily on every page.

Hmmmm, I wouldn't necessarily say conflict is needed on every page, but I do believe there has to be some kind of tension. Some kind of pull for the reader to cause them to keep going.

Some writers actually use a lull in the conflict to increase tension, to cause the reader to turn the pages thinking - "Cmon, cmon!! I need to find out what happened!"

Tension is vital to a gripping story. If there's lots of action up front and all of a sudden nothing but talk about her life and how she does magic, without any kind of underlying conflict simmering in the background, it's gonna stop a reader dead in their tracks.

A strong story question will keep tension in your story and help your reader bridge the lulls in action...

maestrowork · Apr 10, 2006

I agree with tension. Also, there must be a genuine interest in what happens to the characters. Again, it's about story momemtum. There must be something to string the readers along, making them want to turn the page. But tension is not the same as conflict. You may have a scene with Harry Potter, Hermione and Ron talking about school life -- there's no inherent conflict within that scene, but there's that overarching tension of what has yet to come (a prisoner escaped! Etc.) That's suspense. But the scene itself doesn't need to have any conflict.

Branwyn · Apr 10, 2006

I appreciate all the feedback. Thanks.

There are other tensions, between her and her spouse, an affair that he'd had. Her untimely premonitions. But there is also the lulls, not pages and pages, maybe two. Descriptions of their surroundings are included, after all, I am an Anne Rice fan.

zornhau · Apr 11, 2006

maestrowork said:
I agree with tension. Also, there must be a genuine interest in what happens to the characters. Again, it's about story momemtum. There must be something to string the readers along, making them want to turn the page. But tension is not the same as conflict. You may have a scene with Harry Potter, Hermione and Ron talking about school life -- there's no inherent conflict within that scene, but there's that overarching tension of what has yet to come (a prisoner escaped! Etc.) That's suspense. But the scene itself doesn't need to have any conflict.

How about an example from one of your novels?

maestrowork · Apr 11, 2006

I have a whole chapter where the protagonist nurses a few drinks at a pub. There is an overarching tension as to what he should do next, but the scene itself has no conflict. It's a conversation between the bartender and the protagonist. But the scene does the following things: 1) develop the characters -- letting us know, through the conversation, what the characters are like and what they're thinking; 2) develop the theme; and 3) move the plot along -- through the conversation, the protagonist gets some insight of what he should do next.

One might argue that internal conflict (such as self doubt) is also conflict. But here, it's more like tension. The characters are not arguing; they are not fighting. It's a revealing conversation, sure. But there is no conflict in that scene (and it lasts a short 2 pages, hardly long enough to stop the plot from moving).

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