Prepositional Words and Phrases?

I would particularly strive to be grammatically correct when writing for children. After all, they are learning how to speak and write, and how will they learn how to do it correctly if we don't model it for them? I know it is popular now to use the kids' own grammar, in order to show them that it's okay to use these forms. eg. I have seen Kindergarten teachers purposefully write "are" for "our" on the blackboard, in order to encourage children to use invented spelling. I don't think we need to encourage them to do it, we just need to allow it. I think it is really foolish for teachers and other adults who are supposed to know better to do this. Just my opinion, though.

rdfamily said:

Something I'm always trying to be conscious of when writing formally is using prepositional phrases, or at least trying not to end a sentence with a preposition. However, I'm sure we're all aware that most people don't speak with equally conscious grammar, and in generaly correspondence I tend to use my normal pattern of horrible grammar. When writing for children, is it more important to write grammatically correct, or in a more common, fluid manner?

Also I'm sure it depends on the market and the publisher. Do you alter accordingly or submit only to those who fit your style?

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"Never end a sentence with a preposition" is an English teacher rule that has no business in the real world of writing. Kids should be taught good grammar, but there are rules of grammar that never have been followed by good writers, and this is one of them. As Winston Churchill said, "This is the sort of errant pedantry up with which I will not put."

Never ending a senetnce with a preposition often means twisting a sentence out of all logical shape. Other than this, however, children should learn good grammar.

EggwardTheWalrus said:

I remember on a train once, in the economy section, I got so annoyed at a small child (4 or 5) asking if they 'could' go to the rest room and getting stuffily corrected to 'may' by pseudo middle class parents. These people were so snooty. I merely looked them up and down dismissively and rose higher the post graduate mathematics text book I was reading

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We'll have to disagree here. Those parents were right and you were dead, completely wrong. Teaching a child to say "may" is not snooty, it's common sense, and can save that child a lot of trouble later on.

It takes no more effort to say "may" than to say "can" or "could," and a good parent gets this distinction in very early. Poor, rich, or pseudo-middle class, and good parent teaches a child both good manners and good grammar right from the start.

Post graduate math doesn't make you a good parent or a grammarian. Whatever else those parents were, they were raising their children right, and probably saving them a lot of grief down the road.

janetbellinger said:

I would particularly strive to be grammatically correct when writing for children. After all, they are learning how to speak and write, and how will they learn how to do it correctly if we don't model it for them? I know it is popular now to use the kids' own grammar, in order to show them that it's okay to use these forms. eg. I have seen Kindergarten teachers purposefully write "are" for "our" on the blackboard, in order to encourage children to use invented spelling. I don't think we need to encourage them to do it, we just need to allow it. I think it is really foolish for teachers and other adults who are supposed to know better to do this. Just my opinion, though.

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The ltrashing of grammatical writing is excatly why I despise the Junie B. Jones series. It is written largely in five-year-old speak full of grammatical errors that don't add anything to the story line. I voted with my pocketbook and refused to buy these books or read them to my kids, but sadly they continue to do well.

ohhh..Junie B. how I dislike Junie B except for the fact that my low level reading students LOVE her for the bad grammar. They think it's great to read, and actually LOVE pointing out the grammatical inconsistancies.

As for the May I please vs Can I please, I've always stressed the May I's to my kids EXCEPT for when they were little and wanted to go to the bathroom. Back then, I didn't care WHAT they said as long as they said it in time.

Invented spelling....oh, my eyes hurt even reading that word. Educators have lost the real purpose behind it (at least in my mind). I would never ever spell a word on the board incorrectly (on purpose). What i do, when working with first graders is encourage them to get it down on paper phonetically, then I will have them tell me what they said and write it above or below their words/sentences to model the correct spelling.

Okay...off topic, I know, but I felt the need to get on a tiny little soap box of sorts.

There is nothing in English grammar--nor has there ever been in the history of English, including Old and Middle English--to support the statement that it is incorrect to end a sentence with a preposition. That's a fake rule; ignore it.

That's a matter of style, and possibly, usage, though it's a stupid principle of usage, since it violates standard practice.

The thing to be aware of regarding prepositons is that it's quite easy to have a string of prepositions that don't actually contribute to your point, or the purpose of the sentence. Watch out for excessive use.

majiklmoon said:

ohhh..Junie B. how I dislike Junie B except for the fact that my low level reading students LOVE her for the bad grammar. They think it's great to read, and actually LOVE pointing out the grammatical inconsistancies.

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You might want to try Patricia Giff's Kids of the Polk Street and New Kids of Polk Street School series with your below grade level readers. The kids in the stories are fourth graders who have trouble reading (a side issue, not the main thrust of any of the stories) and there is one book for each month of the year. The books alternate having a boy and a girl as the main character. I used them with a group of fourth graders with mixed reading problems (everything for dyslexia to inability to sound out words to ESL students) and they loved them. They don't talk down to kids and they use good grammar. (I still can't forgive Junie B.'s publisher)

Tish Davidson said:

You might want to try Patricia Giff's Kids of the Polk Street and New Kids of Polk Street School series with your below grade level readers. The kids in the stories are fourth graders who have trouble reading (a side issue, not the main thrust of any of the stories) and there is one book for each month of the year. The books alternate having a boy and a girl as the main character. I used them with a group of fourth graders with mixed reading problems (everything for dyslexia to inability to sound out words to ESL students) and they loved them. They don't talk down to kids and they use good grammar. (I still can't forgive Junie B.'s publisher)

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One of my groups is reading "The Beast in Miss Rooney's Room" right now lol, which is one I found for them. But on their own, they tend to gravitate towards Junie B. - at least their reading, I guess.