Lots of dialogue...

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lantern Jack

My kitten knows kung-fu!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Messages
1,244
Reaction score
234
Location
Minneap
I was just reading Stephen Koch and he is rather strongly of the opinion that dialogue should only be used in the most extreme situations. Marge Piercy and Ira Wood, on the other hand, say, on average, up to half the novel should be dialogue. Barnaby Conrad, too, is rather enamored with the spoken, printed word, but he's more of a genrephile.

Now, I'm perfectly aware that this is all subjective, but if you're penning mainstream/literary fare, and you tend to write dialogue much better than interior monologue, would it be deficient to have an abundance of dialogue over interior monologue?

Now, I'm not talking about rambling, How's-your-day?-type stuff. Actually, I subscribe to the "anti-fiction" clique, who believe mixing in a touch of caprice, of chaos, into your fiction makes for a more believable read. So, at least once a chapter, I do try to inject some spiced-up meanderings. But even when my characters talk about nothing, there's something there, like a Seinfeld episode.

But, mostly, I'm talking about Kevin Smith-style dialogue, or, to bring this closer to home, Nick Hornby-style dialogue. Not "flat-effect, Hemingwayesque" rat-a-tat.

And I know everyone's going to have a different opinion on this, but let's just say, for me, I tend to write very cinematically. Both in the sense that, if I can't see it being made into a movie, I can't write it. But also in the sense that I believe (with due respect to James Joyce and Virginia Wolf) action, gesture and spoken language is far more telling than the stream-of-conscious ambling inside a character's head. It's more forceful, more lucid, more engaging and, let's just say it, more dramatic, and the essence of story is [let's all say it together:) ] conflict!

Now I know it seems I've all ready made up my mind here, but I'm one of those people who needs a lot of assurance, that there are plenty of successful examples out there, and what they are, before he ventures forth. Some writers are more skittish than others, more faint-hearted. We can't all be lions. Some of us are rabbits. But rabbits can be fascinating too. They're crepuscular, only active during dusk or dawn. Lions are fierce, but rabbits are tragic and rueful. Rabbits make for better camera subjects.

Also, I spoke with a film agent who almost picked up a script of mine once and he said there are plenty of exquisite scripts bobbing around in Hollywood, but the real way for someone who doesn't have powerful friends to break in is to write a novel that could be adapted for film. In that sense, a dialogue-centric, mainstream-lit novel would seem to be more conducive to that end, at least in my blundering opinion:Shrug:

But, as in all things, I'm not for-sure sure.

That's all. Thanks all.

P.S. I'm still writing. Even though I'm unsure of myself, I'm still churning, still hammering away. But, as I fumble blindly through the fog, it would be good to hear a cheering and cheery voice once in a far while:)
 

Lantern Jack

My kitten knows kung-fu!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Messages
1,244
Reaction score
234
Location
Minneap
zornhau said:
Go examine books in your chosen sub-genre abd do the maths!

Thus, my friend, is where the sticky wicket is situated. Mainstream/literary isn't a sub genre. It's not an island, not an archipelago. It is a vast, vast, vast Pangea, in and of itself. I'm a voracious reader, and I've been doing the calculations for the past 10 years, but I haven't managed to slog through even .0001% of what's in the Library of Congress. Which is where I need a popular concensus, many, many people pitching their hats into the ring, in order to cut the search load down a bit.

Thanks, though:)
 

willietheshakes

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
3,661
Reaction score
726
Location
Semi-sunny Victoria BC
How much dialogue is the right amount of dialogue?

How long is a piece of string?

Seriously. It doesn't matter what other people do - you're not other people. Write your book the way you want to write it. If it works the way you think it should work, send it out into the world. If people feel it's too dialogue heavy and they have a cheque-book in hand, I'd listen to them. Otherwise, I'd listen to my gut. You know your work.
 

Lantern Jack

My kitten knows kung-fu!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Messages
1,244
Reaction score
234
Location
Minneap
willietheshakes said:
How much dialogue is the right amount of dialogue?

How long is a piece of string?

Seriously. It doesn't matter what other people do - you're not other people. Write your book the way you want to write it. If it works the way you think it should work, send it out into the world. If people feel it's too dialogue heavy and they have a cheque-book in hand, I'd listen to them. Otherwise, I'd listen to my gut. You know your work.

True, but we all need someone to emulate. I need to know what some of the other dialogue-heavy writers did so I can know what to avoid, what works, what doesn't. I've been researching all of the literary and mainstream bestsellers for years, but haven't made much headway, so I was hoping I could get a few recommendations here.

Thanks, though:)
 

Maryn

Not Any More
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
63,972
Reaction score
42,691
Location
Chair
Personally, I like dialogue. In my genre, they say to aim for a more or less even balance of dialogue and exposition, but when the dialogue is good, I'm perfectly happy to have is weigh in more heavily.

However, I have no patience for dialogue that serves no purpose. It has to illuminate character, at a minimum.

Maryn, who does better dialogue than exposition
 

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,767
Reaction score
4,662
Location
Scotland
My twopenneth? Forget trying to follow a formula. If dialogue adds something important to the character and the situation, and drives the story onward - put it in. If it doesn't and there's nothing meaningful to talk about - leave it out - unless your book is about the futility of talking about nothing, of course.

Personally, I think dialogue breathes life into any story.
 
Last edited:

veronie

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
465
Reaction score
58
Location
Ocala, Florida
Website
www.preferredword.com
It does seem like what matters most is if the situation calls for it. But as a good rule of thumb, do you think 1/3 dialogue; 2/3 narrative sounds about right? That's what my stuff seems to turn out to be.
 

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 26, 2005
Messages
23,708
Reaction score
10,661
Location
In a world of my own making
Website
shadowferret.wordpress.com
I'm a dialog machine.

What do you mean by that?

Exactly what it says. My writing tends toward lots of conversations.

And little description?

Usually, but I fix that in the rewrite.

So the first draft is all dialog and no exposition?

*smiles and strangles his other personality* Now, as I was saying before I was interrupted, my stories are weighted heavily towards dialog. In my mind, everything else is just the glue that holds the conversations together. The conversations are what move the story along. Does that make sense?

No.

I thought I killed you.
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,654
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
It's all about balance, and also what works for that particular story. Some stories are very external -- all dialogue, all action. Some stories are more introspective, soul-searching, etc. It really does depend. Personally I don't like a lot of internal monologue and I, like you, also write cinematically (but not totally objective view point -- there's something about literary work that screenplay can't do... going into your characters' heads -- that can be very riveting). But too much dialogue would make your ms. sound like a screenplay (without the benefit of actors), and the pacing would be too fast, IMHO. Reading is still different than seeing a movie, so I probably wouldn't make it too dialogue-heavy.
 

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,767
Reaction score
4,662
Location
Scotland
I must write dialogue. And if I'm reading and the narrative starts to hit ten lines or more it had better be good.
 

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
5,198
Reaction score
915
Location
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I love dialogue because it’s so easy. Just let the characters talk and they do all the work. Some readers tell me I need more description, and sometimes I go in afterwards and shoehorn it in, but in general I agree with Picasso when he said, “It is my misfortune - and probably my delight - to use things as my passions tell me. What a miserable fate for a painter who adores blondes to have to stop himself putting them into a picture because they don't go with the basket of fruit!... I put all the things I like into my pictures. The things - so much the worse for them. They just have to put up with it.”

Some of my chapters are nearly 100% dialogue in first draft, dropping to 60-70% after a couple of rounds of adding non-dialogue, with the books generally in the 50% range.
 

banjo

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
157
Reaction score
4
Location
Los Angeles
So far my writing are dialogue rich, and I don't shy away from that. But I think it depends on what is comfortable for youand your WIP.

Some stories require a lot of dialogue and other require much less. I'd suggust that you write your story and don't be too concerned about who else is doing what. You book should be the product of your inpiration, your style and your creative juices.

If you lean to heavily on someone elses example, when does you creative voice emerge?
 

Lantern Jack

My kitten knows kung-fu!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Messages
1,244
Reaction score
234
Location
Minneap
Thanks all. And it seems I'm one of those rare writers who can do it all---dialogue, description, interior monologue---I just prefer dialogue. Honestly, my descriptions and dialogue, all false modesty shelved, are so rich it seems jarring when I switch over to internal monologue.

What I like to do is have an intensely visual and verbal scene, then, between show scenes, I have internal monologue commenting on what just happened. So, in the end, I pendulum between extreme introspection and outward kinesis.
 

JonquilAries

Registered
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
18
Reaction score
1
Location
New Jersey
Website
jonquil-aries.com
I believe dialogue helps bring a character to life. Describing a character is only part of it; his/her speech will inform the reader of their thoughts, feelings, and personality far better. I won't bludgeon a reader with senseless dialogue, though. I try to keep a good balance between dialogue and descriptive narrative.
 

TrickyFiction

Who?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
1,123
Reaction score
146
Location
on the precious Pacific.
I think it's a sign of good characters when they just take off on their own, but I'm being kind to myself by saying so, because I know that my work is dialogue heavy. Whenever I make an effort to insert some description, it's painfully obvious that I made an effort to INSERT it. It just doesn't flow well.

A writer once told me that a scene description doesn't have to be a huge chunk of meat, that it can be broken up and written between lines of dialogue. If your character sets a coffee cup on a table, your reader suddenly knows there is a table and a coffee cup. I try to write like that. It makes for a short novel though, and I've been told my work moves too quickly. I'm going to have to fix that eventually. *sigh*
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,313
dialogue

I think dialogue is good, and when dialogue is needed, it should be used. But not many people read because of the talking. It's the story they want, and too much dialogue can easily get in the way of story.

If a character has something important to say, he should say it. Otherwise, he needs to be quiet.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,313
reading

Lantern Jack said:
Thus, my friend, is where the sticky wicket is situated. Mainstream/literary isn't a sub genre. It's not an island, not an archipelago. It is a vast, vast, vast Pangea, in and of itself. I'm a voracious reader, and I've been doing the calculations for the past 10 years, but I haven't managed to slog through even .0001% of what's in the Library of Congress. Which is where I need a popular concensus, many, many people pitching their hats into the ring, in order to cut the search load down a bit.

Thanks, though:)

I think you're trying too hard. Just read the ten bestselling mainstream/literary novels of the last three years. This should give you all the idea you need.

Forget popular concensus. Many of the worst things ever written were influenced by popular concensus. People vote with their money, not their mouths. And in the end, trying to please the populace almost guarantees you won't. You're the writer. Write the novel the way it works for you, and you'll probably make it work for everyone. Write it the way you think everyone else wants it, and it probably won't work for anyone.
 

TrickyFiction

Who?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
1,123
Reaction score
146
Location
on the precious Pacific.
Jamesaritchie said:
I think dialogue is good, and when dialogue is needed, it should be used. But not many people read because of the talking. It's the story they want, and too much dialogue can easily get in the way of story.

If a character has something important to say, he should say it. Otherwise, he needs to be quiet.

I don't know. I think all readers are different. My father likes a lot of technical stuff, for example. My mother, on the other hand, skips over all the description and set up, and only reads the dialogue. (Too bad she'll never discover graphic novels. She thinks that's all kid's stuff. Silly lady. :))
 

zornhau

Swordsman
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
1,491
Reaction score
167
Location
Scotland
Website
www.livejournal.com
Lantern Jack said:
Thus, my friend, is where the sticky wicket is situated. Mainstream/literary isn't a sub genre. It's not an island, not an archipelago. It is a vast, vast, vast Pangea, in and of itself.
:)

Literary is a genre. Literary Adultery Angst is a sub genre. As is Literary Po Mo Mystery and so on. Really you're only looking for upper and lower bounds, so find the library shelf where your book would go, and look for the books with the most and least white space.
 

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,767
Reaction score
4,662
Location
Scotland
I don't follow how some folk can skim over description and others skim over dialogue. Unless the description is padding and the dialogue meaningless surely one has to read both to get the full story?
 

glutton

Banned
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Messages
1,469
Reaction score
105
Heh, I've read plenty of description which is fairly irrelevant to the story- I don't care how the town looks when the characters are only there for one chapter and only interact meaningfully with two people there...

My books are generally about 65-75% dialogue and inner feelings and 15-20% battle scenes, with minimal detailed narrative that does not involve intense action. The reason is because I never pay attention to such "boring" descriptions in books I read, so I'd get even more bored writing it.

As for dialogue getting in the way of the story, I find that dialogue is what mainly moves my stories along. Characters interact, develop relationships, and make decisions during dialogue. Information about what's going on is also often expressed in the dialogue.

Without dialogue, my novels would likely read largely like summaries of novels, due to my distaste for too much narration.
 

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
9,493
Reaction score
4,283
Location
Coastal North Carolina
LJ, Just write it as you want to write it and when the draft is done, take a step back and look at it as a whole, even have a trusted friend give it a quick read. Style if so personal, I'd hate to see you get hung up on such things before a draft is done. Just get it down on paper, then agonize over it.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.