Ever use song lyrics in your story?

banjo · Mar 14, 2006

I have a scene where some of my characters are skating to music and singing the words of a popular song. It's not the entire song but everyone will know which song the phrases are from.

Is it permissible to use a copyrighted song in this way, and what permissions and protections do I need to use it?

Has anyone else done this? I'm sure the answer will be yes, but I'd like to hear more about it.

Jamesaritchie · Mar 14, 2006

Lyrics

banjo said:
I have a scene where some of my characters are skating to music and singing the words of a popular song. It's not the entire song but everyone will know which song the phrases are from.

Is it permissible to use a copyrighted song in this way, and what permissions and protections do I need to use it?

Has anyone else done this? I'm sure the answer will be yes, but I'd like to hear more about it.

No, you usually can't use copyright lyrics in your fiction without written permission to do so. Such permission must be had from the copyright owner, and can cost from nothing to many thousands of dollars, to not being allowed at all.

Nowhere in fair use law is there a section that allows the use of copyrighted material in your own fiction without first receiving express permission. And songwriters and poets can get really, really nasty when you try it.

It's nearly always far easier not to use such things, because even if you receive permission, there can still be trouble down the line. Publishers rarely want anything to do with fiction that uses copyrighted song lyrics or poems because even if you have permission to use them, what happens with new editions of a book, or publishing in a different format, etc. It's simply very rarely worth the trouble.

Instead of writing the words your characters are singing, just tell the reader what song they're singing. There's no need to actually use the lyrics, and the title of the song isn't covered by copyright.

banjo · Mar 14, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
No, you usually can't use copyright lyrics in your fiction without written permission to do so. Such permission must be had from the copyright owner, and can cost from nothing to many thousands of dollars, to not being allowed at all.

Nowhere in fair use law is there a section that allows the use of copyrighted material in your own fiction without first receiving express permission. And songwriters and poets can get really, really nasty when you try it.

It's nearly always far easier not to use such things, because even if you receive permission, there can still be trouble down the line. Publishers rarely want anything to do with fiction that uses copyrighted song lyrics or poems because even if you have permission to use them, what happens with new editions of a book, or publishing in a different format, etc. It's simply very rarely worth the trouble.

Instead of writing the words your characters are singing, just tell the reader what song they're singing. There's no need to actually use the lyrics, and the title of the song isn't covered by copyright.

So in the films I've seen, where a character is singing or humming a well Known tune, that was not as causaul as it appeared, but an involved legal process. Pity, it would have added a lot to the moment and the mood.

Thank you. You are very knowledgeable.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 14, 2006

I had a short story, actually, novellette, where each section started off with a song lyric that fit what was actually happening in that coming section of the story. It was really kind of fun until I found out I had to get all the different permissions from ASCAP and the band and such to make it work that I dropped it all and the story lost some of it's charm.

PastMidnight · Mar 14, 2006

Are very old songs and poems necessarly copyrighted? Is there a place to find out which songs are copyrighted?

Jamesaritchie · Mar 14, 2006

songs

banjo said:
So in the films I've seen, where a character is singing or humming a well Known tune, that was not as causaul as it appeared, but an involved legal process. Pity, it would have added a lot to the moment and the mood.

Thank you. You are very knowledgeable.

Either that, or the songs are in public domain. And, of course, songs are written for some films, and become well-known after the film is released.

But yes, unless the song is written for the film, or is in public domain, there's always a legal process.

aghast · Mar 14, 2006

songs in literary media are usually only good for the authors; readers either dont know the songs anyway or wont care, its not like in the movies where you can actually hear the song lyrics and melodies which definitely set the mood, personally just reading the lyrics does not set any 'mood' for me, you might as well just tell the readers 'it was a sweet 50s pop song.'

veinglory · Mar 14, 2006

I have used song titles sometimes if it is a very well known song. The titles can be used but the lyric cannot.

Julie Worth · Mar 14, 2006

You will have to pay the owner of the copyright, and this will come out of your pocket, not the publishers. You can use the title, but even a line of a song could be trouble. If you must have someone singing something, you might consider changing the words, so that it isn't an exact quote.

On the other hand, I've seen advice that suggests not to worry about it, because few will sue, as there's not much money in it. Better to be safe, though, and change things around. Hey, you’re a writer, you can do it!

triceretops · Mar 14, 2006

Well, I've just fragged myself with lyrics with Sinatra's Luck Be A Lady. Awe, heck. I'll let the agent sweat that one. It ain't like it can't be pulled anyway.

Tri

Jamesaritchie · Mar 14, 2006

Lyrics

triceretops said:
Well, I've just fragged myself with lyrics with Sinatra's Luck Be A Lady. Awe, heck. I'll let the agent sweat that one. It ain't like it can't be pulled anyway.

Tri

Hopefully, your agent will know to pull it. Lyrics are a deal breaker with publishers. Many editors stop reading the moment they find any. Much better to just write that someone is singing "Luck Be a Lady."

I know one editor who won't even discuss manuscript with copyrighted lyrics, let alone buy one. There just isn't much a publisher can do about having someone else's work in a manuscript submitted to them. They can't publish it, it's never, ever worth the trouble of trying to obtain rights, and you're risking copyright infringement if you miss any.

There just isn't any place or time for putting someone else's copyrigted material into your own fiction.

LisaHy · Mar 15, 2006

Silly question, probably, but is this only for a direct quote of the lyrics? Or does an indirect quote cause the same troubles. To illustrate my question, I have two bits in a couple of mss that I'm wondering about now...

#1 Background - the character has already mentioned she's listening to 3 Doors Down, though no song titles or CD names have been mentioned

My voice sounded loud in the car as Brad Arnold sang about being away from the sun.

#2 Background - the character is being chased by a psychopath who is a fan of Chocolate Starfish (long gone Australian band). The song is "Another Insane", though the title isn't mentioned here, but much earlier.

This is how I've put it in the mss...

“We got another insane.”
She was hearing things now. It was quiet, right on the edge of her hearing. Her mind playing games on her.
“Tie her up, make her jump.”

The actual song lyrics are...

We've got another insane, Tie him up and make him jump

Am I in potential trouble?

Cheers, Lisa.

Flapdoodle · Mar 15, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
No, you usually can't use copyright lyrics in your fiction without written permission to do so. Such permission must be had from the copyright owner, and can cost from nothing to many thousands of dollars, to not being allowed at all.

Nowhere in fair use law is there a section that allows the use of copyrighted material in your own fiction without first receiving express permission. And songwriters and poets can get really, really nasty when you try it.

It's nearly always far easier not to use such things, because even if you receive permission, there can still be trouble down the line. Publishers rarely want anything to do with fiction that uses copyrighted song lyrics or poems because even if you have permission to use them, what happens with new editions of a book, or publishing in a different format, etc. It's simply very rarely worth the trouble.

Instead of writing the words your characters are singing, just tell the reader what song they're singing. There's no need to actually use the lyrics, and the title of the song isn't covered by copyright.

They must make an exception for Steven King - doesn't he quote from songs extensively? (I find this a cheap device.)

In the UK you can quote from a copyrighted work, but the law requires that a "significant" quote requires permission from the copyright holder. I wonder if that includes songs/poems?

Flapdoodle · Mar 15, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
Either that, or the songs are in public domain. And, of course, songs are written for some films, and become well-known after the film is released.

But yes, unless the song is written for the film, or is in public domain, there's always a legal process.

You occasionally get films released on DVD with chunks missing where they have edited out a song in order to avoid licensing issues. This happened to one of the Dr Who DVDs and also a Harry Palmer DVD. In some cases, the entire score of movies is replaced because they can't get a license for the original soundtrack! (This happened to a load of AIP horror movies).

Some bands even re-record their own songs in order to avoid having to license the original recordings from their record label - in the UK there are loads of compilations by bands like The Rubettes, Sweet, Bay City Rollers, Animals, etc that say "These tracks are re-recordings by one or more of the original band members!". In this case the song is owner by the publisher, but the recording by the record label.

Julie Worth · Mar 15, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
Hopefully, your agent will know to pull it. Lyrics are a deal breaker with publishers. Many editors stop reading the moment they find any. Much better to just write that someone is singing "Luck Be a Lady."

I know one editor who won't even discuss manuscript with copyrighted lyrics, let alone buy one. There just isn't much a publisher can do about having someone else's work in a manuscript submitted to them. They can't publish it, it's never, ever worth the trouble of trying to obtain rights, and you're risking copyright infringement if you miss any.

There just isn't any place or time for putting someone else's copyrigted material into your own fiction.

How do they know this? If they see lyrics on the page, do instantly say, these are lyrics and toss the ms? Do you need to tell them in your cover letter that you wrote it?

Jamesaritchie · Mar 15, 2006

Lyrics

Julie Worth said:
How do they know this? If they see lyrics on the page, do instantly say, these are lyrics and toss the ms? Do you need to tell them in your cover letter that you wrote it?

Well, they know lyrics when they see them, and most writers who make this mistake put in lyrics to well known songs. And as often as not, the writer will even mention the singer. Telling is usually pretty simple. But, yes, if I were to make up lyrics to a song, I'd definitely mention it in the cover letter.

Writers who use real lyrics also have a tendency to say something about doing so in a cover letter, as well. Something like, "I don't know if I'm allowe dto use lyrics without permission, but I put them in. . ."Most agents will catch lyrics before somethign else reaches an editor. In short stories, however, the editor has to do the catching, and they're pretty darned good at it because they have to be.

If the lyrics are short, and it only happens once, an editor may just ask that they be written out, but if the lyrics are important to the story, and can't be cut without ruining the plot, you're in trouble.

PastMidnight · Mar 15, 2006

I asked above, but didn't get a response. How do you know if a song or poem is copyrighted or is public domain? I'm especially wondering about older songs and poems.

Julie Worth · Mar 15, 2006

PastMidnight said:
I asked above, but didn't get a response. How do you know if a song or poem is copyrighted or is public domain? I'm especially wondering about older songs and poems.

When is it in the public domain? This is from http://www.pdinfo.com/copyrt.htm

Works created after 1/1/1978 - life of the longest surviving author plus 70 years - earliest possible PD date is 1/1/2048

Works registered before 1/1/1978 - 95 years from the date copyright was secured.

Works registered before 1/1/1923 - Copyright protection for 75 years has expired and these works are in the public domain.

The Good News - works published in the United States in 1922 or earlier are in the public domain even if they are not yet 95 years old.

The Bad News - no new works will enter the public domain until January 1, 2019.

blacbird · Mar 15, 2006

Julie Worth said:
When is it in the public domain? This is from http://www.pdinfo.com/copyrt.htm

Works created after 1/1/1978 - life of the longest surviving author plus 70 years - earliest possible PD date is 1/1/2048

Works registered before 1/1/1978 - 95 years from the date copyright was secured.

Works registered before 1/1/1923 - Copyright protection for 75 years has expired and these works are in the public domain.

The Good News - works published in the United States in 1922 or earlier are in the public domain even if they are not yet 95 years old.

The Bad News - no new works will enter the public domain until January 1, 2019.

For emphasis, this is an excellent summary to an often-posed question. Note, however, that these criteria are applicable only in the U.S. EU, UK, Australian and Canadian laws differ in many particulars.

caw.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 15, 2006

Haha. I just realized I use a song lyric in my current WIP. It was one line and it didn't register until this thread was started.

I have a scene where a couple are listening to Emerson, Lake, and Palmer's "Brain Salad Surgery" album.

...the sliding door to the balcony burst in just as Greg Lake sang, “See the show!”

Oops. Guess I have to either contact the band or strip those three words.

Julie Worth · Mar 15, 2006

I can't imagine a phrase of three words would be a problem, especially when the phrase isn't original to the songwriter.

Jamesaritchie · Mar 15, 2006

Lyrics

Julie Worth said:
I can't imagine a phrase of three words would be a problem, especially when the phrase isn't original to the songwriter.

I'm not at all sure this is an incorrect use, but original phrase or not, he identified it as being part of a song. I don't think I'd sweat it though.

And if it's the title of the song, there's no problem. Titles aren't copyrighted, and you can use them freely.

jst5150 · Mar 15, 2006

Too much intellectual property litigation to be had with song lyrics or using portions of copyrighted works now. Eeek.

grumman · Mar 15, 2006

Woah.. time to lose the lyrics from the cafe scene

... but what about Omar Khayyam's poetry? It is absolutely vital for the development of my central character that he reads Khayyam and cites his quatrains. Do I really have to lose all that or face an army of lawyers?

Awww... shucks!

grumbled Grumman, disgruntled.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 15, 2006

FitzGerald's translation of Omar Khayyam is absolutely in the public domain.

I've used Child Ballads, myself, without any problem.

Ever use song lyrics in your story?

banjo

Jamesaritchie

banjo

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

PastMidnight

Oponionated

Jamesaritchie

aghast

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?

triceretops

Jamesaritchie

LisaHy

It's probably a tumour

Flapdoodle

Flapdoodle

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?

Jamesaritchie

PastMidnight

Oponionated

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?

blacbird

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?

Jamesaritchie

jst5150

Vorpal Comics. Weekly Podcast. Twitch Artist. Vet

grumman

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle