Do you outline?

I don't outline the entire book, but I outline a little in advance of where I am currently writing. I have some basic ideas jotted down for the next three chapters or so ahead of where I am at. When I finish writing one chapter, I look through my ideas and flesh them out a little more, seeing about how much could fit into the next chapter. I keep the list of things that I want to accomplish by the end of the chapter next to me while I'm writing it. I couldn't outline the whole book, as I am always changing my mind and getting new ideas about directions to take the characters in. I spend a lot of time developing my characters, I know where I want them to end up by the time the book ends, and so I just take cues from them as to how they want to get there. I don't think this would work for me if I didn't have such well-developed characters. But I find it fun to see what direction they want to take things!

I outline, not down to microscopic detail, but I do map the story out from beginning to end before I start. I do it on a chapter-by-chapter basis, and I also highlight POV changes, as this helps me to see which characters are getting the most 'page time'.

But even with the outline the story changes as I'm writing it. I often find what seemed like a good idea in the planning stage turns out not to be when I start writing. The characters themselves often change what is happening, but I like that, because at least I know they've got a 'life' of their own, and I'm not just pushing them from one scene to the next.

I've never outlined anything before, but I'm wondering if I should try for my newest novel. I wonder, in particular, if it leads to less revision later on down the line.

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It might help; it might not. We did a sort of a chapter by chapter outline for the one we're finishing up now--and we revised that story so much that some chapters have 30 revisions. Part of it was that we still had a lot to learn about how to set up and structure a story. Some of it was because of how we developed the story--we did it backwards and ended up fixing a lot to correct the problems that caused. We literally started with an idea for the ending and wrote everything to match the end (BIG mistake!).

Now that we're nearly through, we're looking at the next one with the potenial for different methods--and hoping it will be easier. The first thing we did was sit down and work out what the stakes were. They had to be big enough to fit the kind of book we're doing--pursuit thriller. That was one thing we didn't do well on the previous project. We used lost legal papers and later money, neither of which matched the payoff of the action at the end. We had to change the stakes to be bigger for the first one, which required a complete rewrite.

Now we're doing a chapter-by-chapter summary, mostly to work out the setup of the story (the first 100-150 pages). Setup of the story was another area we had a lot of trouble with; thrillers tend to have very complex storylines, making a working story setup crucial (otherwise the remaining 200+ pages won't work well). So we're using the chapter by chapter summary to work out the setup issues before we spend a lot of time writing the story and then needing to fix it. I honestly don't think the chapter-by-chapter summary will go much beyond the first ten chapters (that's about 100-150 pages). Once the setup works right, the rest of the story should flow pretty well.

My last two novels changed significantly by the end, so when I went back to the beginning, I had to rework things quite a lot.

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Having been in a critique group and watched everyone finish books, I can tell you that's a pretty normal thing. A lot of times, it's hard to see how to start the book until you get to the end of the book.

However, I'm worried that if I flesh things out too much at these early stages, I'll lose momentum/interest, and it'll feel more like work to write the scenes (rather than writing to find out what happens).

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I haven't had problems like that with the novels I've worked on so far. But then, I'm just getting the basic setup of the story down, not tons of details or even much in the way of backstory. Especially for setting up the story, I need to have a clear idea of where it is going and all of that worked. I don't want to go through the painful process of fixing major setup issues again.

If you choose to do an outline, it should be whatever you need it to be. There's a lot of focus on the "right" way to do it in writing articles, and that isn't always the right way for everyone. Experiment a little and let it evolve to see what you get.

Hi! I not only outline, but I put all my ongoing ideas into the outline. That way when I go back to the actual writing of scenes, if I can't quite think where I wanted to go with a sentence, I have crib notes in my outline.

One my novels -- still unpublished, but I'm hopeful -- is a fantasy, and for it I have not only a plot outline but a fairly detailed chronology chart of who is where and doing what at which time. For this novel, I've also got a map, and actually wrote a sort of social studies report -- I call it an "abstract" -- on the "land" in which it takes place, so I have proper and consistent background information when I need it. None of that distracted me or burned me out 'cause I was so full of ideas and concept I had to get it all down somewhere -- and it definitely didn't all belong in the story itself.

It has taken me about six years (working off an on, between non-fiction projects) to get this story into a submittable form, and I will admit that now I'm starting to burn out a little -- but after all this time, I find the outline even more helpful. Even when I need to tweak it according to what's really happening in the story, referring to it helps me keep the story on the right track.

Anyhow, I'd advise to try an outline, sure -- remembering that it doesn't have to be the I. A. 1. a. i. sort of thing you learned in grade school -- and if it's not working for you, go to some other way of keeping track of what you need to keep track of. In our business, "outline" is a really loose/relative term.

Ashleen

I've never outlined before -- and I believe that my inability to keep plot moving or to keep my scenes all pointed in the same direction is a direct result. I'm trying to outline now, at a very high level, just to see if it keeps me on track. I have read some comments from people who end up with 200 page outlines that cover everything and include dialog, etc, that they then just need to go back and flesh out a bit. I guess if it works, great. For me, I think that level of detail would be hard for me to work with without just writing the scene out completely.

What I've discovered, though, is that I'm a much more visuallly oriented person when it comes to planning -- Visio flowcharts with copious notes seems to be more useful to me than a flat outline in Word.

Do people here do more than one "level" of outline? Do you do a high-level summarized story, then start inserting scenes and points of interest and important stuff underneath it, or does it spring forth, nearly fully formed?

I'm really curious, because this is not a method that I have ever used before. Would anyone be willing to share part of their original outline and the finished chapter, for instance, as a concrete example of how they work? Sometimes examples make things so much more clear. Obviously, one person's method is not going to suit everyone, but I thrive on examples.

I am primarily a "panster" although I have some serious idea of where the story is going. I read a fabulous post about this at a blog just this morning. Here ya go:

http://tinyurl.com/epe7c

It first starts out as a sentence (one I usually come up with in the shower, or while driving, and must write down later). Then a skeleton of a story is rushed onto the paper, usually without the ending, or a vague idea on how it is supposed to end. Then somewhere between the third and seventh draft I create a chapter by chapter outline, only so that I am able to see the whole tale in a nutshell and decide if certain chapters need to be adjusted, moved, or eliminated. Someday I will outline before I write, but until the industry requires it of me, I am not going to force the issue.

I wrote my first 3 novels without doing an outline. I just let the characters take me on their own little journey and I found it worked well. I didn't stumble with the story too much.
However this time, I'm doing an outline as more of an experiment than anything else. To find out which works best for me. I'm finding it quite difficult to stick to my outline because so many different ideas keep popping into my head.
I think doing a basic outline is probably useful, the main characters, a general breakdown of the story etc, but for me, I'm finding a chapter by chapter outline too restricting. It's certainly an individual choice.

Seen a lot of great advice and personal info up there. For me, I have to outline. I can't drive from point A to ppoint B without a road map; I tend to get side tracked too often. For me, it's a general outline, building momentum as scenes pop into my head. Like most I drop what doesn't work and redefine what is needed, as per what the characters are screaming in my head.

I say try an outline, solid or rough. If it doesn't work for you, throw out the notion. Each writer needs to find what works for them to keep the flow and pump out your best work.

I never used to outline but found my plots going a little off track. Now I do a very loose outline, basically just figuring out what's going to happen in the beginning, middle, and end with any important plot points jotted in there and my structure has been much better.

It works well for some people, not at all for others. My outlines are not formal at all. I'd say give it a try and see if it helps you out, if it does, great! If not, just toss it.

illiterwrite said:

I wonder, in particular, if it leads to less revision later on down the line. My last two novels changed significantly by the end, so when I went back to the beginning, I had to rework things quite a lot.

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Knowing if outlines cut down on later revision is something that you will only learn through practice and writing multiple novels. It sounds as though outlining your next project could help keep things on track. Try it. It might work for you, and it might not.

illiterwrite said:

However, I'm worried that if I flesh things out too much at these early stages, I'll lose momentum/interest, and it'll feel more like work to write the scenes (rather than writing to find out what happens).

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May I suggest you use a very loose outline, then? It will give you guidance, without giving you a strict play-by-play structure to adhere to.

I've never been the writer who writes to find out what happens next. I figure all that out during the planning/researching stage. I rely on outlines, usually because I have a large cast and lots of things to keep track of in each novel. I like having that roadmap. When I get stuck, I know where to go next. It works for me, but it's not for everyone.

For the purpose of writing the novel, an outline doesn't have to be a scene by scene, chapter by chapter listing of events and interactions. It can be a single page of notes, in no particular order, of things you'd like to see in the book. It can be a 500-word summarization. It can be a notebook full of random dialogue snippets, pasted newspaper articles and character photographs.

If you haven't discovered the method that works for you yet, keep experimenting until you figure it out.

With me, it depends. I usually like to have some idea as to where my story is headed before I begin the writing process, but I find that if I outline too rigidly, I am often unable to complete the project. The Seat-of-the-Pants method also causes me to have undue, creativity-killing anxiety because my mind goes through a log-jam due to the sheer number of choices available.... too much Freedom, I guess.

But at the same time if I have it in my mind that I'm going to create a detailed outline before I write, I am often simply unable to even complete the outline itself due to the pressure of having to "get it right the 1st time". Too much rigidity kills my creativity, while too much freedom tends to do the same.

What I do to get around this is follow Dwight Swain's advice (I highly recommend his books-God Rest his Soul) and get just enough information to form the building blocks of (almost) any story. What Swain called a Starting Line Up:

Situation
Character
Objective
Opponent
Disaster

I go from there, outlining scenes as I reach them. I do very structured, rigid outlines..but I feel that they are best saved for AFTER the 1st draft is already written (for me, anyway) More often than not, I actually have to be in the PROCESS of writing the story before I can decide exactly what to do with it.

The times that I do create and use loose outlines for composing the 1st Draft, I don't create them to use as a road map, but more as a general guideline. If I have semi-structured story logistics infront of me, I am better able to see what overall impact any deviations will have to the story structure.

Yes

I outline. It works for me, perhaps because I'm writing a big fat sword and sorcery epic in which large armies trash the setting.

If you're worried about losing the freshness of scenes, you could take your outline down to chapter level only. (There is a distinction between the chess moves of the main game, and the on-the-ground conflict experienced by the pieces.)

Stephen King, on the other hand, doesn't outline. However, he does set up his scenarios with great care in order to generate story.

I take profuse notes as I travel along, knowing that I'm foreshadowing somewhere and there will be reference for it later on. Important names, places, and terminology have to be written down, else I get lost and forget. But I don't outline as a rule. It's on the fly and I give the book a long leash and let it run. I stay about five pages ahead and that's it.

Tri

i do an outline, but 90% of the time I don't stick to it.

I've never tried writing with an outline, tending to feed off the spontaneous creativity of the moment.

I will start with an intended path of sorts, but like to have the flexibility to veer, and boy do I veer!

I have never outlined because I never know beforehand what I'm going to write. It all comes as I'm writing.

Terry Brooks is a fanatic about detailed outlining prior to writing. John Saul never outlines anything. Leonard Bishop maintained that the proper time to outline is after the first draft.

Point being, the only correct way to do it is the way that works for you.

caw.

A topic that came up in this thread recently:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28343

And I will just say that the writers who do not outline and still succeed are the exception that prove the rule. It's so difficult, only the rarest can pull it off and succeed.

badducky said:

And I will just say that the writers who do not outline and still succeed are the exception that prove the rule. It's so difficult, only the rarest can pull it off and succeed.

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Is that your opinion or verifiable fact?

Oh balls. Lots of exceptional(and successful) writers don't outline.

I write fantasies.


In my fantasy worlds, there isn't a difference between the two.

I also suspect that many authors that claim not to outline do outline... just in non-traditional ways.

I'm sure someone's already mentioned this, but...amazingly, Tolkein did absolutely no outline whatsoever. I find that amazing actually, that he sat down at his typewriter....TYPEWRITER....and started without a clue as to what the story would be. No surprise it took him 16 years to write LOTR, and god-knows how many rewrites....each one painfully typed out on his TYPEWRITER from scratch.

As for me, I write thrillers, which are all about plot, and quite frankly, IMHO plots have to be outlined first otherwise you can find yourself having to do some pretty painful U-turns later on. And I hate doing that.

I tend to outline the major events and then improvise the minor stuff around that. That helps to keep it fresh.