POV

Saundra Julian · Mar 5, 2006

I write in Omniscient, third person...
Have I violated POV in this scene even for this style of writing?

Kathleen knocked softly on the massive, carved door to Ann’s apartments.

A pasty faced, maid answered the knock. “It is her, Madam,” she whispered to someone Kathleen could not see.

“Let her come.”

Swinging open the door, the maid looked the new girl up and down with a look of disgust.

Kathleen stepped, hesitantly, into the perfumed world of the Lady of the house and looked around, awed with the luxury of the room. Never, had she seen such riches.

When her eyes fell on Ann, who sat at her morning desk making a guest list for the ball she and Lucas were hosting to honor Luke’s birthday, she thought she must be the most beautiful woman in the world. The luster of the pearls in her dark hair and around her neck seem to be an extension of her pale white skin and the gems on her fingers sparkled red and green in the morning sun coming through the window.

Kathleen shifted from foot to foot waiting for Ann to acknowledge her presence.

“Wilma, take this list to Lindsey and have her sent out the invitations immediately,’ Ann said, laying down her plumed pen.

“Yes, my Lady.” Wilma said taking the list and scurrying out of the room like a frightened mouse.

Turning to look at the young girl, Ann breathed a sigh of relief. The girl was not what she expected and looked every bit a peasant in her homespun dress and rough shoes. She appeared lean and strong, but with her head bowed in respect, Ann could not see her face.

“Look at me, girl!”

Kathleen lifted her eyes to meet those of the mistress of the house.

Ann was not pleased with the innocent young face of the new arrival. Her freshly scrubbed skin was flawless, her eyes, a brilliant blue.

“Your name?”

“Kathleen, my Lady.”

“How long have you known my husband?”

“I have never met his Lordship.”

“You have never met Lord Von Batten? Strange, that he should bring you into service in my home.”

“I was also surprised by the summons, my Lady.” Kathleen smiled at the older woman. “You have a beautiful home.”

“Yes, yes, and I assume that you know what a great honor it is to serve in my house.”

“Yes, my Lady.”

“Very well, we will try you. You will take all your orders from Lindsey. She has complete charge of all the household chores.”

“Yes, my Lady.”

“You are dismissed.”

Kathleen turned to leave the room, but stopped at the sound of her mistress’ voice.

“Before you go, know this, I will have my eye on you. See that you behave decently.”

Kathleen looked puzzled, but did not answer.

Ann moved to her dressing table and sat down. Looking into the mirror, she sighed at the sight of her aging skin.

***

Ken Schneider · Mar 5, 2006

Yes.

"Kathleen stepped, hesitantly, into the perfumed world of the Lady of the house and looked around, awed with the luxury of the room. Never, had she seen such riches." This is her POV. Point of View. Only she could know what she's thinking.

Kathleen again. "She thought she must be the most beautiful woman in the world."

Then,

"Turning to look at the young girl, Ann breathed a sigh of relief.The girl was not what she expected and looked every bit a peasant in her homespun dress and rough shoes." This is Ann's POV.

Ann again. "Ann was not pleased with the innocent young face of the new arrival. Her freshly scrubbed skin was flawless, her eyes, a brilliant blue."

First, the POV should be kept with your Protag, or Antag, or, mian character. Is that Ann, or Kathleen?

You can have different persons in separate scenes who have POV, but not two people in the same scene.

If in this scene, your main character was Ann, then she would be observing Kathleen, and you would only be able to see her thoughts. Other characters can have noticed emotions which tell the other characters what they are feeling.

i.e., If Ann is the main character, "The doorbell rang, and the maid opened the door wide. Ann could see the young girl shifting nervously as they spoke, and hoped she had chosen the right girl." Ann's POV.

Or, If Kathleen is the main character, "She rang the door bell and waited a few moments before the door opened. The maid looked her up and down, and wrinkled her lip in distaste before letting her in. The sweet scent of perfume filled the space, and she could see her new boss, Kathleeen, writing at a nearby desk, the quill pen in her hand dusting the air with elegant strokes. Ann hoped she had made the right choice." Kathleen's POV.

I hope I explained, instead of confused. The POV should be with one person in each scene, and that person should be the only one whose thoughts the reader can see. The others actions should be shown through expressions and the viewed emotions of the person in the scene with POV. Ann has to see what Kathleen is doing, or Kathleen, Ann. Never both the other.

Think of it as only one person having internal thoughts that they alone can tell the reader about.

IMHO, Ken

Prosthetic Foreheads · Mar 5, 2006

Ken Schneider said:
First, the POV should be kept with your Protag, or Antag, or, mian character. Is that Ann, or Kathleen? ....

You can have different persons in separate scenes who have POV, but not two people in the same scene.

If in this scene, your main character was Ann, then she would be observing Kathleen, and you would only be able to see her thoughts. Other characters can have noticed emotions which tell the other characters what they are feeling....

I hope I explained, instead of confused. The POV should be with one person in each scene, and that person should be the only one whose thoughts the reader can see. The others actions should be shown through expressions and the viewed emotions of the person in the scene with POV. Ann has to see what Kathleen is doing, or Kathleen, Ann. Never both the other.

Think of it as only one person having internal thoughts that they alone can tell the reader about.

IMHO, Ken

First of all, I'm no expert on omniscient POV. I write strictly in limited/3rd and I never head-hop, so it's hard for me to tell the differnce between head-hopping in limited and omniscient narration.

However, I can tell you that what Ken is talking about only applies to limited/3rd. I don't think he noticed that you mentioned it was an omniscient narrator. So when he says you should only see one character's thoughts per scene, that's definitely wrong. An omniscient narrator can absolutely see into each character's head in any given scene. So disregard that. I'm not saying Ken doesn't know what he's talking about, I'm sure he just didn't see that it was supposed to be omniscient.

Now, the difference between head-hopping and omniscience has something to do with the wording and how that implies whether the narration is coming from inside each character's head (head-hopping), or whether it's from an outside observer that's able to see into each character's head. But again, in omniscient 3rd person, you are allowed to see each character's thoughts in a single scene. You are not restricted to a single character's POV and that character's thoughts.

aghast · Mar 5, 2006

omniscient means the narrator can headhop all he wants, not my favorite type of pov style but theres nothing wrong with it.

reph · Mar 5, 2006

Saundra, so few writers use omniscient any longer that it's hard for me to make the adjustment as a reader. I tried. Even for omni, however, I found places in your excerpt that jarred. For example, would Kathleen know that the residents were named Ann and Lucas?

This sentence has a mixture that illustrates the overall problem: "When her eyes fell on Ann, who sat at her morning desk making a guest list for the ball she and Lucas were hosting to honor Luke’s birthday, she thought she must be the most beautiful woman in the world." The sentence tries to do two incompatible jobs. It shows Kathleen's impression of Ann, and it provides information about Ann's class standing and lifestyle. The middle part, "who...birthday," interrupts its progress on the first job, simply by inserting a long string of words into the statement about Kathleen's impression, and so detracts from accomplishing that. It also reveals facts that K can't know. K can see that Ann's writing something, but she can't know it's a guest list, much less that a birthday is coming up. And unless a standard item of furniture called a morning desk existed at that time in history, K wouldn't think "There she is, at her morning desk." I'm not familiar with morning desks myself. Would Ann have had an evening desk in another room? (Would she have had a desk of any kind in this room? I'd expect the front door to belong to a hall or a parlor, not a workspace.)

In other words, even in omni, you can't jump around that much. The purpose of the scene will dictate POV. The narrator knows everything, but not all of it should be revealed together.

I also noticed several mistakes in punctuation.

aghast · Mar 5, 2006

hmmm I agree with Reph that even with omni pov you shouldn't jump around in the same sentence, you should stick the the same pov character at least in the same sentence and preferrably in the same scene. things like what Reph mentioned violates pov (even for omni) when you start off with one pov, then in midsentence talks about something about the other character or what the first character wouldn't know, theoretically omni is godlike so you can do whatever but realistically its very confusing to the readers and after a while your readers will be very disoriented and also an agent will probably see things as amateur writing

Ken Schneider · Mar 5, 2006

aghast said:
hmmm I agree with Reph that even with omni pov you shouldn't jump around in the same sentence, you should stick the the same pov character at least in the same sentence and preferrably in the same scene.

As I said.

And in omni, the narrator does know it all, the characters on the other hand, unless stated as a wizard or sear, don't have magical powers to see, and know the unknown, or reading thoughts of another character.

Agreed, Reph.

KAP · Mar 5, 2006

Omni is tough. I think the trick is to make sure we readers understand that the pov is an all knowing one. So you don't just leap from pov to pov. Instead, establish that omniscience.

I'm no expert at that pov (or probably any other) but I'll show what I mean below. I hope.

Saundra Julian said:
Kathleen knocked softly on the massive, carved door to Ann’s apartments.

A pasty faced, maid answered the knock. “It is her, Madam,” she whispered to someone Kathleen could not see.

As written, it's too much in Kathleen's pov to establish the omniscient pov to my taste. The reader can't see who's behind the door because Kathleen can't. A truly omniscient narrator would know. So this example puts it in a 3rd limited to me.

A pasty-faced maid answered the knock. "It's her, Madam," she whispered to Blanche, who stood just far enough back that Katleen's couldn't know who the maid spoke to.

That, to me, would be omni.

Then you've got it established, but you must keep it up. And I would try to limit too much head-hopping anyway.

Hope that helps a little.

Prosthetic Foreheads · Mar 5, 2006

Just like most of you, I prefer limited over omni. But all you are doing is telling Saundra that you don't like omniscient. If you stick with one character's POV in one scene, it's not omniscient. This is taken directly from a book called Character and Viewpoint by Orson Scott Card, from the chapter that compares omniscient third person and limited third person. In the same paragraphs and sometimes the same sentences you see each character's thoughts:

"Pete knew he was failing, but he couldn't figure out why. He kept bumbling along, trying to impress her, never guessing that she was much more comfortable with beer and football types. She had grown up with brothers who thought that 'fun' was any outdoor game that left scabs. She had often told her friends that all but six of her delicate, fragile bones had been broken during childhood- at least she could hardly remember a time when when she didn't have a cast on some part of her body."

...She didn't want to go home. She wanted to be at an easy, comfortable bar somewhere, getting slightly drunk and laughing with Pete's buddies.

So did Pete. After all, Pete was the guy who had run the length of the bar at Hokey's, naked, because Walter Payton didn't score a touchdown in Superbowl XX."

That was part of an example the author gave. Here's some of the author's analysis following it:

"In this story fragment, I tried to show omniscient POV at its best. Because the narrator can see into both Pete's and Nora's minds, switching back and forth at will, we know things that neither character knows...

No other POV but omniscient would allow a narrator to say: 'If only each had known that the other had slept through most of Tess.'"

Now, you may not like it- I know I don't- but omniscient narration is just that: omniscient. All-knowing. I much prefer limited/3rd, and if you're advising Saundra to change her story to limited/ 3rd, that's fine. But you don't stick with one character's POV in omniscient third person narration.

Prosthetic Foreheads · Mar 5, 2006

KAP said:
Omni is tough. I think the trick is to make sure we readers understand that the pov is an all knowing one. So you don't just leap from pov to pov. Instead, establish that omniscience.

I'm no expert at that pov (or probably any other) but I'll show what I mean below. I hope.

As written, it's too much in Kathleen's pov to establish the omniscient pov to my taste. The reader can't see who's behind the door because Kathleen can't. A truly omniscient narrator would know. So this example puts it in a 3rd limited to me.

A pasty-faced maid answered the knock. "It's her, Madam," she whispered to Blanche, who stood just far enough back that Katleen's couldn't know who the maid spoke to.

That, to me, would be omni.

Then you've got it established, but you must keep it up. And I would try to limit too much head-hopping anyway.

Hope that helps a little.

That sounds right to me as well, KAP.

Saundra Julian · Mar 5, 2006

All very good points and I thank you for your help...I can see I have some corrections to make!

BTW, this scene was taken out of context and maybe that was not fair to you.

I find this to be a very good explanation of omniscient, third person...

Omniscient. With the third person omniscient point of view, the narrator knows everything, allowing the writer to mention the thoughts and feelings of any character, and to insert editorial comments. The narrative can also skip around to different places and times, and fill in backstory at any point.

I'm trying to find an explanation for a "morning desk"...that may be a Southern thing and not of this time period at all...more on that later as I'm sure I did not make up that item or its name ....

Ken I do not understand what you are saying here...
Quote: And in omni, the narrator does know it all, the characters on the other hand, unless stated as a wizard or sear, don't have magical powers to see, and know the unknown, or reading thoughts of another character.
Who was "mind-reading" in this scene?

Prosthetic Foreheads · Mar 5, 2006

aghast said:
...you should stick the the same pov character at least in the same sentence and preferrably in the same scene.

Sticking with a POV character in one scene wouldn't be omniscient. I do agree that you must make it clear that one character doesn't know the other's thoughts. But if worded correctly, the narrator can state each character's thoughts, even in the same sentence.

Saundra Julian · Mar 5, 2006

Thank you, Prosthetic!

I DO like the omniscient approach...and I would guess, so do many readers...
I'm still stumped about this mind -reading business, where did I do that?

PastMidnight · Mar 5, 2006

I guess I have an incorrect assumption of what omni 3rd person is. I thought it was where the narrator knows all, but only so far as the narrator can see. So he/she can't see into the characters thoughts, but can describe visible emotions. As if the reader was viewing the scene through a camera. What kind of POV is it that am I thinking of?

Saundra Julian said:
.
I'm trying to find an explanation for a "morning desk"...that may be a Southern thing and not of this time period at all...more on that later as I'm sure I did not make up that item or its name ....

I haven't looked this term up, but as I was reading it, I assumed that a morning desk is a desk in a morning room, the room where the woman of the house would do her daily paperwork (responding to invitations, attending to bills, making up the menu for the week). There wouldn't be an evening desk, as paperwork was gotten out of the way in the morning.

reph · Mar 5, 2006

Saundra, what you're calling omni reads more like rapidly shifting third. As KAP said, the extract opens in Kathleen's POV, with enough depth (K can't see the person the maid whispers to) to lead the reader to expect that the POV will stay there.

The mind-reading comes in when a sentence, or maybe a paragraph, implicitly uses a character's perceptions as its material and includes things the character couldn't know.

Prosthetic's example of omni, "Pete knew he was failing...," is okay because it has a different time perspective. The "Pete" passage summarizes conditions in the characters' relationship and their life histories. The narrator is more detached from any single, concrete action of Pete's or Nora's than your narrator, who follows Kathleen in real time through the door and into the apartment.

Saundra Julian · Mar 5, 2006

OIC..got it and I did that with the invitation to the ball thingy!!

Thanks!

Yes, Past, a morning room is probably what I was thinking of...thanks!
Now I can quit racking my brain!

One last question when using Omniscient-third do you have to use it through out the book or can you just use it in certain scenes?

I know the scene I posted above could be changed to limited-third very easily...

pdr · Mar 5, 2006

Perhaps...?

what is missing is the narrator's voice. I don't, in your extract, get any feel of the all powerful, all seeing narrator telling the story. I think with the omni POV the reader needs a sense of the narrator as observer, to give an understanding of why s/he can read so many people's thoughts.

Saundra Julian · Mar 5, 2006

Good point, pdr! Thanks...

reph · Mar 5, 2006

Saundra Julian said:
One last question when using Omniscient-third do you have to use it through out the book or can you just use it in certain scenes?

You can back out of omni and go with one character for a scene. Just do it carefully so the transitions seem natural and the reader doesn't feel jerked around. Omni is a difficult POV to write well.

Phouka · Mar 5, 2006

Saundra Julian said:
One last question when using Omniscient-third do you have to use it through out the book or can you just use it in certain scenes?

I have no idea if there's a rule, but as a reader, it would be jarring to suddenly be 'hearing" everyone's thoughts when the rest of the novel stayed pretty much in one persons head at a time. It would seem as if the narrator had suddenly gained magic powers and then they went away in the next scene.

I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing when I read (even if I can't get it straight when I write!) but I wonder if most people would even catch that someone else's thoughts had suddenly popped in when it had been someone else.

Omni, to me, is further away from the story than multi-3rd. You wouldn't have the sense of being in one person's head at all, even when you were describing them directly-- is that what the issue with 'narrators voice' is? It should be more dispassoniate?

LightShadow · Mar 5, 2006

You would think that head-hopping would be confusing to the reader. If a point of view must be changed do it by the chapter.

Sharon Mock · Mar 6, 2006

I read any number of books that change POV by scene, so much so that it seems the default for my chosen genre (SF/F). Perhaps it's a genre expectations thing?

POV

Saundra Julian

A work in progress

Ken Schneider

Absolute sagebrush

Prosthetic Foreheads

aghast

reph

Fig of authority

aghast

Ken Schneider

Absolute sagebrush

KAP

Hangin' with the gargies

Prosthetic Foreheads

Prosthetic Foreheads

Saundra Julian

A work in progress

Prosthetic Foreheads

Saundra Julian

A work in progress

PastMidnight

Oponionated

reph

Fig of authority

Saundra Julian

A work in progress

pdr

Saundra Julian

A work in progress

reph

Fig of authority

Phouka

LightShadow

defender of the blahs!

Sharon Mock

Wing nut